NO Reformation at 500

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Jester » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:51 am

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:25 am
Skip wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am
Meanwhile, everyone ignores me when I quote the Scriptures instructing us to turn to the Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth." (1 Tim 3:15)
And you ignore everyone when they tell you that they're not convinced that your church is the Church. Yet you continue to argue from that point as a First Principle. I wasn't joking: you are the antithesis of "Seek first to understand, then to be understood." Were you to understand the rational foundations of those to whom you breathlessly blather, you'd realize that, in the absence of agreed First Principles, discussion will be fruitless. And we have a few years of threads to back up the veracity of that suggestion.
We have a conflict of First Principles. I am not ignoring them.

The way to debate first principles is to show that the conclusions that follow from a principle are false or inconsistent or nonsensical.

I use Scripture to show that Jesus established a Church for our salvation. I point out, in many examples, that this Church continues to teach consistently the same thing that the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles to teach since 33 AD.

Meanwhile, the foundational principle of the Reformation is that the Holy Spirit had abandoned Christ's Church, and that the only true and reliable authority is the Church's Sacred Scripture. I point out that the Bible Christians are often in defiance of the most central of biblical revelations, such as "THIS IS MY BODY." I point out that the shattered and disunited state of Christians after the Reformation is a clear indication that this is not God's path for us.

I know from history that most people will not listen. Some will even react violently to anything that challenges their first principle. But a few do listen.
It would seem we also have a conflict of definitions. It seems that your definition of the church is not a catholic body of believers but a sphere or realm in which men can enter to have inerrancy with the Holy Spirit. I know you would say that all men are capable of error but you say the church is incapable of this. This is confusing to me.

So if you view the church as anyone in a certain realm then my answer is yes. The Holy Spirit can leave the "area" that was once consumed with those who possess the Spirit. I would also point out that those who are believers, filled with the Spirit, still have the capability of error. I see nothing with strapping on the label of RCC making it or people inerrant.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:58 pm

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am
The Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error.
Yes! And the difference will be revealed in how we answer the question; How does the Holy Spirit protect the Church from teaching error?


The Reformers had an answer to how the primary way the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error: the Scriptures.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:05 pm

tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:58 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am
The Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error.
Yes! And the difference will be revealed in how we answer the question; How does the Holy Spirit protect the Church from teaching error?


The Reformers had an answer to how the primary way the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error: the Scriptures.
But the lonely Scriptures have failed to guide the Protestant sects into anything resembling unity of truth, right? Am I wrong in assessing that the Reformation has failed in its reason for being?

What am I missing here?

The Apostolic Church continues to boast that it teaches the same faith as the Apostles. Even a millennium of schism separating the East and the West has not caused a noticeable divergence in the faith as it has been handed down to us. This is humanly impossible... but it makes when we see the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:59 pm

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:05 pm
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:58 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am
The Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error.
Yes! And the difference will be revealed in how we answer the question; How does the Holy Spirit protect the Church from teaching error?


The Reformers had an answer to how the primary way the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error: the Scriptures.
But the lonely Scriptures have failed to guide the Protestant sects into anything resembling unity of truth, right? Am I wrong in assessing that the Reformation has failed in its reason for being?

What am I missing here?

The Apostolic Church continues to boast that it teaches the same faith as the Apostles. Even a millennium of schism separating the East and the West has not caused a noticeable divergence in the faith as it has been handed down to us. This is humanly impossible... but it makes when we see the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit.
We've had this conversation before (at least I have on CPS...) but believe it or not, Protestants aren't as divided as one might assume. Granted, there is no hierarchal umbrella organization holding it together, but I'd say that there is a rather strong "In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas" vibe when seen from 10,000 feet. In essentials unity, in doubtful things liberty, in everything charity. Again, it's not to say it is always the case, but I'd wager it's more likely the case than most often think.

Protestants believe they teach the same faith as the Apostles. It's actually one of hallmarks of the Reformation, going back to the roots of the early church. You speak of no noticeable difference between East and West over a millennium but you don't speak of the noticeable difference between the first century to the 16th (not to mention the 21st) (and I say that fully aware of the noticeable changes within Protestantism from the 16th to today). And I nor any reformer that I'm aware of has ever claimed that the Holy Spirit was not guiding the Church always. We actually see the Reformation as an act of God continuing the sanctification of the Bride.

But back to the question of unity. Or rather disunity. Protestantism is not a shattered windshield. It's a forest with different trees. Some are strong redwoods. Some are scraggly, twisted, or even dead. Even Jesus said the tares will grow alongside the wheat until the end. You and I can most likely pick out the dead ones. And from this Protestant's point of view (which is debated among Protestants and yet still fully acceptable within the realm of Protestantism) Roman Catholics are part of the forest. Maybe across the river, but they're still there. An older portion of the woods that Protestantism has to thank for all the seed. And we find that the forest extends to the East as well. That's not a comment for now on how I (or protestants in general) view the health of any part of the forest, but it is an acknowledgement that they are a part of it. That's how Protestants view the divisions we have among us. Some are elms and some are firs and some are oaks, but we're all trees in the same forest.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by DepartedLight » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:02 pm

M A R Y
DL Jake

All my posts should be viewed from a position of, this guy is nuts.

I missed throwing up in 2016. » tuttle

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:49 pm

tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:59 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:05 pm
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:58 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:23 am
The Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error.
Yes! And the difference will be revealed in how we answer the question; How does the Holy Spirit protect the Church from teaching error?


The Reformers had an answer to how the primary way the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error: the Scriptures.
But the lonely Scriptures have failed to guide the Protestant sects into anything resembling unity of truth, right? Am I wrong in assessing that the Reformation has failed in its reason for being?

What am I missing here?

The Apostolic Church continues to boast that it teaches the same faith as the Apostles. Even a millennium of schism separating the East and the West has not caused a noticeable divergence in the faith as it has been handed down to us. This is humanly impossible... but it makes when we see the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit.
We've had this conversation before (at least I have on CPS...) but believe it or not, Protestants aren't as divided as one might assume. Granted, there is no hierarchal umbrella organization holding it together, but I'd say that there is a rather strong "In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas" vibe when seen from 10,000 feet. In essentials unity, in doubtful things liberty, in everything charity. Again, it's not to say it is always the case, but I'd wager it's more likely the case than most often think.

Protestants believe they teach the same faith as the Apostles. It's actually one of hallmarks of the Reformation, going back to the roots of the early church. You speak of no noticeable difference between East and West over a millennium but you don't speak of the noticeable difference between the first century to the 16th (not to mention the 21st) (and I say that fully aware of the noticeable changes within Protestantism from the 16th to today). And I nor any reformer that I'm aware of has ever claimed that the Holy Spirit was not guiding the Church always. We actually see the Reformation as an act of God continuing the sanctification of the Bride.

But back to the question of unity. Or rather disunity. Protestantism is not a shattered windshield. It's a forest with different trees. Some are strong redwoods. Some are scraggly, twisted, or even dead. Even Jesus said the tares will grow alongside the wheat until the end. You and I can most likely pick out the dead ones. And from this Protestant's point of view (which is debated among Protestants and yet still fully acceptable within the realm of Protestantism) Roman Catholics are part of the forest. Maybe across the river, but they're still there. An older portion of the woods that Protestantism has to thank for all the seed. And we find that the forest extends to the East as well. That's not a comment for now on how I (or protestants in general) view the health of any part of the forest, but it is an acknowledgement that they are a part of it. That's how Protestants view the divisions we have among us. Some are elms and some are firs and some are oaks, but we're all trees in the same forest.
Thank you for that. Thank you very much.

We should make an effort to be in the same place for a good while, with plenty of tobacco, libations, and barbecue. I should come to you, since your family is young, and your youngest is recovering from many surgeries.

We should invite Jester and the Fred. Let's look toward next spring.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:08 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:02 pm
M A R Y
Ahhhh!

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"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by FredS » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 pm

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:49 pm
. . .We should make an effort to be in the same place for a good while, with plenty of tobacco, libations, and barbecue. I should come to you, since your family is young, and your youngest is recovering from many surgeries.

We should invite Jester and the Fred. Let's look toward next spring.
Fred would like few things more. I've not yet met Jester, but based on his (futile and fruitless) attempts to shove some Protestant knowledge in your noggin' I'll venture that I'll like him when I do. But we'd better do it fast. I'm moving 700 miles west this fall so if not soon, some careful planning will be required.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Del » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:28 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:49 pm
. . .We should make an effort to be in the same place for a good while, with plenty of tobacco, libations, and barbecue. I should come to you, since your family is young, and your youngest is recovering from many surgeries.

We should invite Jester and the Fred. Let's look toward next spring.
Fred would like few things more. I've not yet met Jester, but based on his (futile and fruitless) attempts to shove some Protestant knowledge in your noggin' I'll venture that I'll like him when I do. But we'd better do it fast. I'm moving 700 miles west this fall so if not soon, some careful planning will be required.
Well, let's all plan a secret meet-up then -- and not invite the Mods.

I can manage a weekend down to visit Mom in Marshall, and we can plan a day in KC.

What's out west? Did you buy a hemp plantation?
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by coco » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:37 am

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:28 pm
...Well, let's all plan a secret meet-up then -- and not invite the Mods...
:(
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:11 am

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:28 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:49 pm
. . .We should make an effort to be in the same place for a good while, with plenty of tobacco, libations, and barbecue. I should come to you, since your family is young, and your youngest is recovering from many surgeries.

We should invite Jester and the Fred. Let's look toward next spring.
Fred would like few things more. I've not yet met Jester, but based on his (futile and fruitless) attempts to shove some Protestant knowledge in your noggin' I'll venture that I'll like him when I do. But we'd better do it fast. I'm moving 700 miles west this fall so if not soon, some careful planning will be required.
Well, let's all plan a secret meet-up then -- and not invite the Mods.

I can manage a weekend down to visit Mom in Marshall, and we can plan a day in KC.

What's out west? Did you buy a hemp plantation?
Excellent!!! I'm down for a meetup! Especially if I can see FredS before he rides off into the sunset :cry:
"You're my kind of stupid" -Mal Reynolds

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Jester » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:01 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:11 am
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:28 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:49 pm
. . .We should make an effort to be in the same place for a good while, with plenty of tobacco, libations, and barbecue. I should come to you, since your family is young, and your youngest is recovering from many surgeries.

We should invite Jester and the Fred. Let's look toward next spring.
Fred would like few things more. I've not yet met Jester, but based on his (futile and fruitless) attempts to shove some Protestant knowledge in your noggin' I'll venture that I'll like him when I do. But we'd better do it fast. I'm moving 700 miles west this fall so if not soon, some careful planning will be required.
Well, let's all plan a secret meet-up then -- and not invite the Mods.

I can manage a weekend down to visit Mom in Marshall, and we can plan a day in KC.

What's out west? Did you buy a hemp plantation?
Excellent!!! I'm down for a meetup! Especially if I can see FredS before he rides off into the sunset :cry:
This sounds great!
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Joshoowah » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:00 pm

Kyrie eleison.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Jocose » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:59 am

Remember folks, the "Reformation" is between the Roman church and the Protestant churches.


There was no "Reformation" in the Orthodox Church.

Orthodox Christianity : Proclaiming the Truth since 33AD

Come and see.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by tuttle » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:13 am

Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:59 am
Remember folks, the "Reformation" is between the Roman church and the Protestant churches.


There was no "Reformation" in the Orthodox Church.

Orthodox Christianity : Proclaiming the Truth since 33AD

Come and see.
Anyone who cares or hates the Reformation is fully aware of who it is between. Capitalizing on the 500th anniversary of the Reformation to promote your own tradition is tantamount to Walmart or Target pimping Christmas to get us to come see the mega sales they've got going on. Coming from a proponent of a tradition that prides itself in not succumbing to modernity, I find it a smidge ironic.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Jocose » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:14 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:13 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:59 am
Remember folks, the "Reformation" is between the Roman church and the Protestant churches.


There was no "Reformation" in the Orthodox Church.

Orthodox Christianity : Proclaiming the Truth since 33AD

Come and see.
Anyone who cares or hates the Reformation is fully aware of who it is between. Capitalizing on the 500th anniversary of the Reformation to promote your own tradition is tantamount to Walmart or Target pimping Christmas to get us to come see the mega sales they've got going on. Coming from a proponent of a tradition that prides itself in not succumbing to modernity, I find it a smidge ironic.
Come and see!
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I've crossed the Bosphorus.

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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by gaining_age » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:44 am

FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:49 pm
. . .We should make an effort to be in the same place for a good while, with plenty of tobacco, libations, and barbecue. I should come to you, since your family is young, and your youngest is recovering from many surgeries.

We should invite Jester and the Fred. Let's look toward next spring.
Fred would like few things more. I've not yet met Jester, but based on his (futile and fruitless) attempts to shove some Protestant knowledge in your noggin' I'll venture that I'll like him when I do. But we'd better do it fast. I'm moving 700 miles west this fall so if not soon, some careful planning will be required.
If you make it far enough west and in the dry country we could start an out west desert meet up.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Rusty » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:06 am

gaining_age wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:44 am
FredS wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:49 pm
. . .We should make an effort to be in the same place for a good while, with plenty of tobacco, libations, and barbecue. I should come to you, since your family is young, and your youngest is recovering from many surgeries.

We should invite Jester and the Fred. Let's look toward next spring.
Fred would like few things more. I've not yet met Jester, but based on his (futile and fruitless) attempts to shove some Protestant knowledge in your noggin' I'll venture that I'll like him when I do. But we'd better do it fast. I'm moving 700 miles west this fall so if not soon, some careful planning will be required.
If you make it far enough west and in the dry country we could start an out west desert meet up.
Did somebody say dessert? Pick up Bob on the way and make sure he eats.

I do hope we're going celebrate the 500th Anniversary of the Reformation.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by coco » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:19 am

Take heart, my Catholic friends! With the exception of a handful, most Protestants will not celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Most have no idea what it was all about, and thus it and its theology are largely irrelevant. Now, more than ever before, Protestants are willing to come home to the Roman Catholic church.
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Re: NO Reformation at 500

Post by Rusty » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:25 am

coco wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:19 am
Take heart, my Catholic friends! With the exception of a handful, most Protestants will not celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Most have no idea what it was all about, and thus it and its theology are largely irrelevant. Now, more than ever before, Protestants are willing to come home to the Roman Catholic church.
Heretic!

Even Catholics should celebrate this.
A mood rises just to have.

Though it is not too sweet, the citreous marble design is refreshing womanfully, and a mood rises just to have.


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