A Reformation paper for class

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Rusty
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Rusty » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:25 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:03 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.
This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.
Not really difficult.

The Protestant culture gave us capitalism and socialism, with all of the goods and bads of each. This is our culture, and we are well-indoctrinated in this.

The Catholics will remember that we lost the monasteries... where small local armies of monks and nuns lived in simple poverty and devoted their lives to God and helping others. Monasteries were the schools, hospitals, and welfare safety net for the poor. When the monasteries were suppressed, the gold and wealth went to the crown, the farmlands were used to buy support of the local nobility, and the poor were left without any social security. They migrated to the city slums, creating the world of crime and misery that Dickens described so well.

Modern governments have spent the last century trying to recover what Europe lost in the Reformation, programs like social welfare and public education.

The Age of Christendom had
- social security,
- universal healthcare,
- public education and universities,
- church law courts which secured justice against local tyrants,
- a moral check upon the ruling class, who were expected to behave as God's stewards,
- just wages secured by the guilds,
- abolition of slavery,
- chivalry, with respect and high esteem for women,
- and widespread joy in the salvation of our God.
That's quite a feature rich list. Now which people did those benefits apply to? Did the peasants enjoy all that too? Why would anyone seek reform with all that? LOL!
In 1500 roughly 5-7% of the population in Europe could write or sign their own names. By 1800 that had changed dramatically and changed most in the Northern Protestant nations. Rates of literacy improved in Protestant over Catholic nations. Why, would you think?

I think you have a thing about British Protestants. And that brings up a question... is the reformation in England the same as the reformation in Germany. I think not.
The English Reformation was very different from the Continental Reformation.... as English history and cultural movements are often very different from contemporary changes on the Continent.

The English Reformation is very important to us because it is the cultural foundation for America.
You're afraid of Luther. Good.
You omitted answers for the other questions. Try again.
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Del » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:34 pm

Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:25 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:03 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.
This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.
Not really difficult.

The Protestant culture gave us capitalism and socialism, with all of the goods and bads of each. This is our culture, and we are well-indoctrinated in this.

The Catholics will remember that we lost the monasteries... where small local armies of monks and nuns lived in simple poverty and devoted their lives to God and helping others. Monasteries were the schools, hospitals, and welfare safety net for the poor. When the monasteries were suppressed, the gold and wealth went to the crown, the farmlands were used to buy support of the local nobility, and the poor were left without any social security. They migrated to the city slums, creating the world of crime and misery that Dickens described so well.

Modern governments have spent the last century trying to recover what Europe lost in the Reformation, programs like social welfare and public education.

The Age of Christendom had
- social security,
- universal healthcare,
- public education and universities,
- church law courts which secured justice against local tyrants,
- a moral check upon the ruling class, who were expected to behave as God's stewards,
- just wages secured by the guilds,
- abolition of slavery,
- chivalry, with respect and high esteem for women,
- and widespread joy in the salvation of our God.
That's quite a feature rich list. Now which people did those benefits apply to? Did the peasants enjoy all that too? Why would anyone seek reform with all that? LOL!
In 1500 roughly 5-7% of the population in Europe could write or sign their own names. By 1800 that had changed dramatically and changed most in the Northern Protestant nations. Rates of literacy improved in Protestant over Catholic nations. Why, would you think?

I think you have a thing about British Protestants. And that brings up a question... is the reformation in England the same as the reformation in Germany. I think not.
The English Reformation was very different from the Continental Reformation.... as English history and cultural movements are often very different from contemporary changes on the Continent.

The English Reformation is very important to us because it is the cultural foundation for America.
You're afraid of Luther. Good.
You omitted answers for the other questions. Try again.
I have no idea if your facts were right or not.

Take your estimate of literacy, at 5-7%. It sounds absurdly low. I suspect that 5-7% of Europeans lived in monasteries and could read. [And if the portion of population in monasteries was really that small, they were amazingly more efficient than our current population of government employees.]
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by coco » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:23 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:17 am
coco wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:47 am
History should be written with primary sources, not just secondary sources. If you want to show "both sides of the argument," then you will need to cite what people back then had to say about things, not just make reference to what some guy today has to say about things. He should consider quoting Luther's 95 Theses and the Council of Trent.

I've graded a few seminary papers. I would be glad to look over his paper before he submits it.
Psst! The kid is 16.
I've graded a few of those as well. :D

On the whole, I've been rather encouraged by what I have seen 16 year-olds write and rather discouraged by deficiencies that still exist at the Master's level.
"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Rusty » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:34 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:25 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:03 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.
This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.
Not really difficult.

The Protestant culture gave us capitalism and socialism, with all of the goods and bads of each. This is our culture, and we are well-indoctrinated in this.

The Catholics will remember that we lost the monasteries... where small local armies of monks and nuns lived in simple poverty and devoted their lives to God and helping others. Monasteries were the schools, hospitals, and welfare safety net for the poor. When the monasteries were suppressed, the gold and wealth went to the crown, the farmlands were used to buy support of the local nobility, and the poor were left without any social security. They migrated to the city slums, creating the world of crime and misery that Dickens described so well.

Modern governments have spent the last century trying to recover what Europe lost in the Reformation, programs like social welfare and public education.

The Age of Christendom had
- social security,
- universal healthcare,
- public education and universities,
- church law courts which secured justice against local tyrants,
- a moral check upon the ruling class, who were expected to behave as God's stewards,
- just wages secured by the guilds,
- abolition of slavery,
- chivalry, with respect and high esteem for women,
- and widespread joy in the salvation of our God.
That's quite a feature rich list. Now which people did those benefits apply to? Did the peasants enjoy all that too? Why would anyone seek reform with all that? LOL!
In 1500 roughly 5-7% of the population in Europe could write or sign their own names. By 1800 that had changed dramatically and changed most in the Northern Protestant nations. Rates of literacy improved in Protestant over Catholic nations. Why, would you think?

I think you have a thing about British Protestants. And that brings up a question... is the reformation in England the same as the reformation in Germany. I think not.
The English Reformation was very different from the Continental Reformation.... as English history and cultural movements are often very different from contemporary changes on the Continent.

The English Reformation is very important to us because it is the cultural foundation for America.
You're afraid of Luther. Good.
You omitted answers for the other questions. Try again.
I have no idea if your facts were right or not.

Take your estimate of literacy, at 5-7%. It sounds absurdly low. I suspect that 5-7% of Europeans lived in monasteries and could read. [And if the portion of population in monasteries was really that small, they were amazingly more efficient than our current population of government employees.]
Hardly public education then, right? It's misleading to call it that. That 5-7% would certainly include the actually literate, who could read Luther's works, but it would also include people who could at least write their name but not much more. So you can consider it somewhat inflated. I think it was Luther that started universal education of both males and females. You'll also remember that he translated the bible into very basic German that ordinary people could understand. This "by faith alone" is very powerful. Drop the religious broker and the people need to be educated. And the journey to our world starts. A thousand years of Catholicism and Catholic rulers had not accomplished this.
Last edited by Rusty on Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by coco » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:01 pm

Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:34 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:25 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:03 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.
This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.
Not really difficult.

The Protestant culture gave us capitalism and socialism, with all of the goods and bads of each. This is our culture, and we are well-indoctrinated in this.

The Catholics will remember that we lost the monasteries... where small local armies of monks and nuns lived in simple poverty and devoted their lives to God and helping others. Monasteries were the schools, hospitals, and welfare safety net for the poor. When the monasteries were suppressed, the gold and wealth went to the crown, the farmlands were used to buy support of the local nobility, and the poor were left without any social security. They migrated to the city slums, creating the world of crime and misery that Dickens described so well.

Modern governments have spent the last century trying to recover what Europe lost in the Reformation, programs like social welfare and public education.

The Age of Christendom had
- social security,
- universal healthcare,
- public education and universities,
- church law courts which secured justice against local tyrants,
- a moral check upon the ruling class, who were expected to behave as God's stewards,
- just wages secured by the guilds,
- abolition of slavery,
- chivalry, with respect and high esteem for women,
- and widespread joy in the salvation of our God.
That's quite a feature rich list. Now which people did those benefits apply to? Did the peasants enjoy all that too? Why would anyone seek reform with all that? LOL!
In 1500 roughly 5-7% of the population in Europe could write or sign their own names. By 1800 that had changed dramatically and changed most in the Northern Protestant nations. Rates of literacy improved in Protestant over Catholic nations. Why, would you think?

I think you have a thing about British Protestants. And that brings up a question... is the reformation in England the same as the reformation in Germany. I think not.
The English Reformation was very different from the Continental Reformation.... as English history and cultural movements are often very different from contemporary changes on the Continent.

The English Reformation is very important to us because it is the cultural foundation for America.
You're afraid of Luther. Good.
You omitted answers for the other questions. Try again.
I have no idea if your facts were right or not.

Take your estimate of literacy, at 5-7%. It sounds absurdly low. I suspect that 5-7% of Europeans lived in monasteries and could read. [And if the portion of population in monasteries was really that small, they were amazingly more efficient than our current population of government employees.]
Hardly public education then, right? It's misleading to call it that. That 5-7% would certainly include the actually literate, who could read Luther's works, but it would also include people who could at least write their name but not much more. So you can consider it somewhat inflated. I think it was Luther that started universal education of both males and females. You'll also remember that he translated the bible into very basic German that ordinary people could understand. This "by faith alone" is a very powerful. Drop the religious broker and the people need to be educated. And the journey to our world starts.
5-7% would be generous for this time period, if we defined literacy as the ability to read, understand, and apply a short, written text. See the works of Brian V. Street for more on the subject.
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Del » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:02 am

Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:34 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:25 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:03 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.
This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.
Not really difficult.

The Protestant culture gave us capitalism and socialism, with all of the goods and bads of each. This is our culture, and we are well-indoctrinated in this.

The Catholics will remember that we lost the monasteries... where small local armies of monks and nuns lived in simple poverty and devoted their lives to God and helping others. Monasteries were the schools, hospitals, and welfare safety net for the poor. When the monasteries were suppressed, the gold and wealth went to the crown, the farmlands were used to buy support of the local nobility, and the poor were left without any social security. They migrated to the city slums, creating the world of crime and misery that Dickens described so well.

Modern governments have spent the last century trying to recover what Europe lost in the Reformation, programs like social welfare and public education.

The Age of Christendom had
- social security,
- universal healthcare,
- public education and universities,
- church law courts which secured justice against local tyrants,
- a moral check upon the ruling class, who were expected to behave as God's stewards,
- just wages secured by the guilds,
- abolition of slavery,
- chivalry, with respect and high esteem for women,
- and widespread joy in the salvation of our God.
That's quite a feature rich list. Now which people did those benefits apply to? Did the peasants enjoy all that too? Why would anyone seek reform with all that? LOL!
In 1500 roughly 5-7% of the population in Europe could write or sign their own names. By 1800 that had changed dramatically and changed most in the Northern Protestant nations. Rates of literacy improved in Protestant over Catholic nations. Why, would you think?

I think you have a thing about British Protestants. And that brings up a question... is the reformation in England the same as the reformation in Germany. I think not.
The English Reformation was very different from the Continental Reformation.... as English history and cultural movements are often very different from contemporary changes on the Continent.

The English Reformation is very important to us because it is the cultural foundation for America.
You're afraid of Luther. Good.
You omitted answers for the other questions. Try again.
I have no idea if your facts were right or not.

Take your estimate of literacy, at 5-7%. It sounds absurdly low. I suspect that 5-7% of Europeans lived in monasteries and could read. [And if the portion of population in monasteries was really that small, they were amazingly more efficient than our current population of government employees.]
Hardly public education then, right? It's misleading to call it that. That 5-7% would certainly include the actually literate, who could read Luther's works, but it would also include people who could at least write their name but not much more. So you can consider it somewhat inflated. I think it was Luther that started universal education of both males and females. You'll also remember that he translated the bible into very basic German that ordinary people could understand. This "by faith alone" is very powerful. Drop the religious broker and the people need to be educated. And the journey to our world starts. A thousand years of Catholicism and Catholic rulers had not accomplished this.
The Age of Christendom accomplished a great deal in the realms of justice & government, technology, art & architecture, philosophy, civil & human rights, etc. We invented the printing press, for example. And in the southern, Catholic nations with languages of Roman descent, there were already high rates of literacy and Bibles in the vernacular language.

The problem in barbaric regions of Northern Europe is that there was no common language. "Common German" and "common English" did not exist. It was a plethora of local languages and dialects. This was not a problem, because anyone who could read and write was able to do so in Latin. Broadcast messages were passed from monastery to monastery, and then cried out to the local villages in their local tongue.

"English" as we know it did not become a common language until after the King James Bible and its London dialect were imposed upon the people. For most of England, it was as foreign as Latin, at first.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Rusty » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:58 pm

Del wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:02 am
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:34 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:25 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:03 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am
+JMJ+
Jocose wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:46 am
He needs to write the paper from both sides of the argument , one showing how it was useful and one how it was not useful.
This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.
Not really difficult.

The Protestant culture gave us capitalism and socialism, with all of the goods and bads of each. This is our culture, and we are well-indoctrinated in this.

The Catholics will remember that we lost the monasteries... where small local armies of monks and nuns lived in simple poverty and devoted their lives to God and helping others. Monasteries were the schools, hospitals, and welfare safety net for the poor. When the monasteries were suppressed, the gold and wealth went to the crown, the farmlands were used to buy support of the local nobility, and the poor were left without any social security. They migrated to the city slums, creating the world of crime and misery that Dickens described so well.

Modern governments have spent the last century trying to recover what Europe lost in the Reformation, programs like social welfare and public education.

The Age of Christendom had
- social security,
- universal healthcare,
- public education and universities,
- church law courts which secured justice against local tyrants,
- a moral check upon the ruling class, who were expected to behave as God's stewards,
- just wages secured by the guilds,
- abolition of slavery,
- chivalry, with respect and high esteem for women,
- and widespread joy in the salvation of our God.
That's quite a feature rich list. Now which people did those benefits apply to? Did the peasants enjoy all that too? Why would anyone seek reform with all that? LOL!
In 1500 roughly 5-7% of the population in Europe could write or sign their own names. By 1800 that had changed dramatically and changed most in the Northern Protestant nations. Rates of literacy improved in Protestant over Catholic nations. Why, would you think?

I think you have a thing about British Protestants. And that brings up a question... is the reformation in England the same as the reformation in Germany. I think not.
The English Reformation was very different from the Continental Reformation.... as English history and cultural movements are often very different from contemporary changes on the Continent.

The English Reformation is very important to us because it is the cultural foundation for America.
You're afraid of Luther. Good.
You omitted answers for the other questions. Try again.
I have no idea if your facts were right or not.

Take your estimate of literacy, at 5-7%. It sounds absurdly low. I suspect that 5-7% of Europeans lived in monasteries and could read. [And if the portion of population in monasteries was really that small, they were amazingly more efficient than our current population of government employees.]
Hardly public education then, right? It's misleading to call it that. That 5-7% would certainly include the actually literate, who could read Luther's works, but it would also include people who could at least write their name but not much more. So you can consider it somewhat inflated. I think it was Luther that started universal education of both males and females. You'll also remember that he translated the bible into very basic German that ordinary people could understand. This "by faith alone" is very powerful. Drop the religious broker and the people need to be educated. And the journey to our world starts. A thousand years of Catholicism and Catholic rulers had not accomplished this.
The Age of Christendom accomplished a great deal in the realms of justice & government, technology, art & architecture, philosophy, civil & human rights, etc. We invented the printing press, for example. And in the southern, Catholic nations with languages of Roman descent, there were already high rates of literacy and Bibles in the vernacular language.
Higher rates of literacy in southern Catholic nations?
The Gutenberg printing press was Luther's greatest ally. They all went over to the protestant Luther side. He was the best selling author in Europe for many years.

Here is a better estimate of rudimentary literacy (and better) in 1500 and then in 1800. This is the percentage of people that could write their own name. It's slightly more than my claim above. And it doesn't appear to support your claim for southern Catholic nations.

Image

Note that by 1800 the protestant nations have higher rates of rudimentary literacy than the Catholic nations.

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You're out of the dark
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Step into the sun
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Del » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:46 pm

Rusty wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:58 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:02 am
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:34 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:25 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm
Rusty wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:03 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:42 am
+JMJ+



This, right here, might indicate a problem.

The Catholic "case" (and by extension, the Orthodox one) is gonna have a hard time making its case based on utility.

OTOH, the genealogy of Modernity writ large worships at the gushing spring of the Reformation. Just ask Rusty.

Love yer toaster and air-conditioning and 4K widescreen? Thank you, Martin Luther.
Not really difficult.

The Protestant culture gave us capitalism and socialism, with all of the goods and bads of each. This is our culture, and we are well-indoctrinated in this.

The Catholics will remember that we lost the monasteries... where small local armies of monks and nuns lived in simple poverty and devoted their lives to God and helping others. Monasteries were the schools, hospitals, and welfare safety net for the poor. When the monasteries were suppressed, the gold and wealth went to the crown, the farmlands were used to buy support of the local nobility, and the poor were left without any social security. They migrated to the city slums, creating the world of crime and misery that Dickens described so well.

Modern governments have spent the last century trying to recover what Europe lost in the Reformation, programs like social welfare and public education.

The Age of Christendom had
- social security,
- universal healthcare,
- public education and universities,
- church law courts which secured justice against local tyrants,
- a moral check upon the ruling class, who were expected to behave as God's stewards,
- just wages secured by the guilds,
- abolition of slavery,
- chivalry, with respect and high esteem for women,
- and widespread joy in the salvation of our God.
That's quite a feature rich list. Now which people did those benefits apply to? Did the peasants enjoy all that too? Why would anyone seek reform with all that? LOL!
In 1500 roughly 5-7% of the population in Europe could write or sign their own names. By 1800 that had changed dramatically and changed most in the Northern Protestant nations. Rates of literacy improved in Protestant over Catholic nations. Why, would you think?

I think you have a thing about British Protestants. And that brings up a question... is the reformation in England the same as the reformation in Germany. I think not.
The English Reformation was very different from the Continental Reformation.... as English history and cultural movements are often very different from contemporary changes on the Continent.

The English Reformation is very important to us because it is the cultural foundation for America.
You're afraid of Luther. Good.
You omitted answers for the other questions. Try again.
I have no idea if your facts were right or not.

Take your estimate of literacy, at 5-7%. It sounds absurdly low. I suspect that 5-7% of Europeans lived in monasteries and could read. [And if the portion of population in monasteries was really that small, they were amazingly more efficient than our current population of government employees.]
Hardly public education then, right? It's misleading to call it that. That 5-7% would certainly include the actually literate, who could read Luther's works, but it would also include people who could at least write their name but not much more. So you can consider it somewhat inflated. I think it was Luther that started universal education of both males and females. You'll also remember that he translated the bible into very basic German that ordinary people could understand. This "by faith alone" is very powerful. Drop the religious broker and the people need to be educated. And the journey to our world starts. A thousand years of Catholicism and Catholic rulers had not accomplished this.
The Age of Christendom accomplished a great deal in the realms of justice & government, technology, art & architecture, philosophy, civil & human rights, etc. We invented the printing press, for example. And in the southern, Catholic nations with languages of Roman descent, there were already high rates of literacy and Bibles in the vernacular language.
Higher rates of literacy in southern Catholic nations?
The Gutenberg printing press was Luther's greatest ally. They all went over to the protestant Luther side. He was the best selling author in Europe for many years.

Here is a better estimate of rudimentary literacy (and better) in 1500 and then in 1800. This is the percentage of people that could write their own name. It's slightly more than my claim above. And it doesn't appear to support your claim for southern Catholic nations.

Image

Note that by 1800 the protestant nations have higher rates of rudimentary literacy than the Catholic nations.

May you endure a Diet of Worms.
If you provide Jocose's son with a link to that source, he can include "higher cultural value of literacy" as a plus for the Protestant Revolution.
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by DepartedLight » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:51 pm

coco wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:12 am
Please note that CPS posts do not count as scholarly references.
1. Thank you.

2. LIAR!

3. No. I’ll go take my meds now. OK?
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by tuttle » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:46 am

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:41 pm
The Reformation was so much more than "some people just wanted to read the Bible for themselves, and the mean old Catholic Church wouldn't let them."
but it wasn't less than that...
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Del » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:05 am

tuttle wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:46 am
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:41 pm
The Reformation was so much more than "some people just wanted to read the Bible for themselves, and the mean old Catholic Church wouldn't let them."
but it wasn't less than that...
There is so much error in the common myth.

Catholicism was very happy to encourage people to know Scripture. They were not afraid of vernacular translations, especially in regions where people spoke a common language. (Jerome's Vulgate was a translation from Greek into common Latin.) Franciscan friars were traveling and preaching from Italian-language Gospels in the 1200's.

The fear was that bad theology, supported by bad translations, would cause grave damage. And clearly that fear was very real.

As Rusty pointed out: Since most people of the time were illiterate in both Latin and their common language, it did not matter much that Bibles whether translated or not.

The revulsion and fear of Scripture among common Catholics came after the Reformation. As Catholic cultures became more literate, there was already the impression that the Bible was somehow "the Protestant book." Reading it might tempt one into bizarre errors and lose one's faith, becoming like a Protestant.

Put that down as one of the adverse results of the Reformation: It caused Catholics to avoid reading their own Bible. One of the major goals of Vatican II was to encourage biblical scholarship and widespread reading of the Scriptures. 450 years after the Reformation, and we are still struggling to overcome the Reformation's stigma.
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by tuttle » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:39 am

Del wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:05 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:46 am
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:41 pm
The Reformation was so much more than "some people just wanted to read the Bible for themselves, and the mean old Catholic Church wouldn't let them."
but it wasn't less than that...
There is so much error in the common myth.

Catholicism was very happy to encourage people to know Scripture. They were not afraid of vernacular translations, especially in regions where people spoke a common language. (Jerome's Vulgate was a translation from Greek into common Latin.) Franciscan friars were traveling and preaching from Italian-language Gospels in the 1200's.

The fear was that bad theology, supported by bad translations, would cause grave damage. And clearly that fear was very real.

As Rusty pointed out: Since most people of the time were illiterate in both Latin and their common language, it did not matter much that Bibles whether translated or not.

The revulsion and fear of Scripture among common Catholics came after the Reformation. As Catholic cultures became more literate, there was already the impression that the Bible was somehow "the Protestant book." Reading it might tempt one into bizarre errors and lose one's faith, becoming like a Protestant.

Put that down as one of the adverse results of the Reformation: It caused Catholics to avoid reading their own Bible. One of the major goals of Vatican II was to encourage biblical scholarship and widespread reading of the Scriptures. 450 years after the Reformation, and we are still struggling to overcome the Reformation's stigma.
Catholicism of the late middle ages was certainly not happy to encourage people to know Scripture or worship in their own language. To wit:
The Synod of Toulouse in 1229 forbade the laity to have in their possession any copy of the books of the Old and the New Testament except the Psalter and such other portions as are contained in the Breviary or the Hours of the Blessed Mary. "We most strictly forbid these works in the vulgar tongue" (Harduin, Concilia, xii, 178; Mansi, Concilia, xxiii, 194). The Synod of Tarragona (1234) ordered all vernacular versions to be brought to the bishop to be burned. James I renewed thin decision of the Tarragona synod in 1276. The synod held there in 1317 under Archbishop Ximenes prohibited to Beghards, Beguines, and tertiaries of the Franciscans the possession of theological books in the vernacular (Mansi, Concilia, xxv, 627). The order of James I was renewed by later kings and confirmed by Paul II (1464-71).
Source: Schaff–Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge

This is a perfect example of what the reformers sought to reform. Before, oh about Gregory VII or so, it wasn't a big deal for the Bible or services to be of the vernacular. The reformers knew that and sought to return to the practice.

The revulsion and fear of Scripture in the common tongue was alive and well, long before 1517, and indeed was one of the many things that sowed the soil for the Reformation.
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by Del » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:14 pm

tuttle wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:39 am
Del wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:05 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:46 am
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:41 pm
The Reformation was so much more than "some people just wanted to read the Bible for themselves, and the mean old Catholic Church wouldn't let them."
but it wasn't less than that...
There is so much error in the common myth.

Catholicism was very happy to encourage people to know Scripture. They were not afraid of vernacular translations, especially in regions where people spoke a common language. (Jerome's Vulgate was a translation from Greek into common Latin.) Franciscan friars were traveling and preaching from Italian-language Gospels in the 1200's.

The fear was that bad theology, supported by bad translations, would cause grave damage. And clearly that fear was very real.

As Rusty pointed out: Since most people of the time were illiterate in both Latin and their common language, it did not matter much that Bibles whether translated or not.

The revulsion and fear of Scripture among common Catholics came after the Reformation. As Catholic cultures became more literate, there was already the impression that the Bible was somehow "the Protestant book." Reading it might tempt one into bizarre errors and lose one's faith, becoming like a Protestant.

Put that down as one of the adverse results of the Reformation: It caused Catholics to avoid reading their own Bible. One of the major goals of Vatican II was to encourage biblical scholarship and widespread reading of the Scriptures. 450 years after the Reformation, and we are still struggling to overcome the Reformation's stigma.
Catholicism of the late middle ages was certainly not happy to encourage people to know Scripture or worship in their own language. To wit:
The Synod of Toulouse in 1229 forbade the laity to have in their possession any copy of the books of the Old and the New Testament except the Psalter and such other portions as are contained in the Breviary or the Hours of the Blessed Mary. "We most strictly forbid these works in the vulgar tongue" (Harduin, Concilia, xii, 178; Mansi, Concilia, xxiii, 194). The Synod of Tarragona (1234) ordered all vernacular versions to be brought to the bishop to be burned. James I renewed thin decision of the Tarragona synod in 1276. The synod held there in 1317 under Archbishop Ximenes prohibited to Beghards, Beguines, and tertiaries of the Franciscans the possession of theological books in the vernacular (Mansi, Concilia, xxv, 627). The order of James I was renewed by later kings and confirmed by Paul II (1464-71).
Source: Schaff–Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge

This is a perfect example of what the reformers sought to reform. Before, oh about Gregory VII or so, it wasn't a big deal for the Bible or services to be of the vernacular. The reformers knew that and sought to return to the practice.

The revulsion and fear of Scripture in the common tongue was alive and well, long before 1517, and indeed was one of the many things that sowed the soil for the Reformation.
I suspect that we are both correct. A lot depended on the local region.

In any case, we can agree that the Reformers wanted to see Scripture in the hands of everyone's hands. And thus they were responsible for both vernacular translations and the education of common masses in literacy.

But the violence and persecutions by Reformation zealots also resulted in a Catholic culture that came to fear the Reformer's Bible. This was a scandal on par with the corruption and nepotism of secular nobility meddling in the Church's hierarchy.

This is still a problem. Catholic leaders have been trying to get Catholics to love their Scriptures for hundreds of years since the Reformation.... and most Catholics won't listen, because they are still repulsed by ancestral memories of persecution by Bible-zealots. This is especially true in America, where our Catholic culture was largely influenced by Irish immigrants -- who suffered the worst during the Reformation and centuries after.

Back to the paper: For years now, my thesis is that the Reformation was an attack by Satan upon the Church. Satan, as always, sowing sedition and division with his lies. And this attack was successful, in two ways:
- The Catholic Christians became afraid to read and study their own Scripture, just as the printing press and standardization of languages threatened to make widespread literacy possible.
- The Protestant Christians were separated from the grace of the Sacraments of Christ's Church, and are scattered like another Tower of Babel. The warnings against "scattering sheep" by lions and wolves and demons is something that is repeated over and over again in Scripture, so we must not be surprised that Satan was really trying to do so.
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by wosbald » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:35 pm

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:39 am
Catholicism of the late middle ages was certainly not happy to encourage people to know Scripture or worship in their own language. To wit:
[…] The synod held there in 1317 under Archbishop Ximenes prohibited to Beghards, Beguines, and tertiaries of the Franciscans the possession of theological books in the vernacular (Mansi, Concilia, xxv, 627). […]
Source: Schaff–Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge

This is a perfect example of what the reformers sought to reform. Before, oh about Gregory VII or so, it wasn't a big deal for the Bible or services to be of the vernacular. The reformers knew that and sought to return to the practice.

The revulsion and fear of Scripture in the common tongue was alive and well, long before 1517, and indeed was one of the many things that sowed the soil for the Reformation.
You're throwing in with Beghards, Beguines and what I can only assume are Spiritual Franciscans (Fraticelli)?

Just wonderin'.




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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by hugodrax » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:46 pm

wosbald wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:35 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:39 am
Catholicism of the late middle ages was certainly not happy to encourage people to know Scripture or worship in their own language. To wit:
[…] The synod held there in 1317 under Archbishop Ximenes prohibited to Beghards, Beguines, and tertiaries of the Franciscans the possession of theological books in the vernacular (Mansi, Concilia, xxv, 627). […]
Source: Schaff–Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge

This is a perfect example of what the reformers sought to reform. Before, oh about Gregory VII or so, it wasn't a big deal for the Bible or services to be of the vernacular. The reformers knew that and sought to return to the practice.

The revulsion and fear of Scripture in the common tongue was alive and well, long before 1517, and indeed was one of the many things that sowed the soil for the Reformation.
You're throwing in with Beghards, Beguines and what I can only assume are Spiritual Franciscans (Fraticelli)?

Just wonderin'.
Well, to be fair, it IS the Schaffer-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge. Never heard of it? Not surprised. It's based on the Realencyklopedie für protestantiche Theologies und Kirche. It's more biased than Rusty, but slightly less old, having come out in 1914.
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by FredS » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:50 pm

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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by wosbald » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:55 pm

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:46 pm
It's more biased than Rusty, but slightly less old, having come out in 1914.
Image




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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by hugodrax » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:58 pm

wosbald wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:55 pm
+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:46 pm
It's more biased than Rusty, but slightly less old, having come out in 1914.
Image
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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by wosbald » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:12 pm

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:58 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:55 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:46 pm
It's more biased than Rusty, but slightly less old, having come out in 1914.
Image
I'm bored and sick of all the passive aggression. Fight for my amusement, damn your eyes. Fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orJeetKSG-Y




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Re: A Reformation paper for class

Post by tuttle » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:21 pm

wosbald wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:35 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:39 am
Catholicism of the late middle ages was certainly not happy to encourage people to know Scripture or worship in their own language. To wit:
[…] The synod held there in 1317 under Archbishop Ximenes prohibited to Beghards, Beguines, and tertiaries of the Franciscans the possession of theological books in the vernacular (Mansi, Concilia, xxv, 627). […]
Source: Schaff–Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge

This is a perfect example of what the reformers sought to reform. Before, oh about Gregory VII or so, it wasn't a big deal for the Bible or services to be of the vernacular. The reformers knew that and sought to return to the practice.

The revulsion and fear of Scripture in the common tongue was alive and well, long before 1517, and indeed was one of the many things that sowed the soil for the Reformation.
You're throwing in with Beghards, Beguines and what I can only assume are Spiritual Franciscans (Fraticelli)?

Just wonderin'.
I'm not throwing in with anyone. I'm merely pointing out how the Roman Church in the late middle ages was increasingly prohibiting Bibles and books in the vernacular.
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