Offending the Conscience

For those deep thinkers out there.

Moderator: tuttle

User avatar
Del
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Hacked by Kellyanne Conway
Posts: 36267
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Del » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:43 pm

Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:52 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:29 pm
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:30 am
EDIT: Thinking about this over lunch I now have a question to those who think we are not permitted biblically to carry in church.
Has anybody here taken that position?

Even Moose has clarified himself in that, biblically, there's neither a positive obligation to carry nor a positive restriction against banning.

That seems to be the default position on this thread, inasmuch as it's the one thing upon which everyone currently positing agrees.
Good grief. And someone nominated me for the "define yourself so I can disagree with you better" Morley.

Altered to remove "biblically" from same questions, posed to the "opposite of Moose crowd".
Is it ok for a police officer to arrive at a church and shoot an active shooter?
If yes.
Why is it permitted for an officer and not for anyone else?
If no.
Are we obligated to let shooters follow through?

IMHO you can say nobody is taking that position but I just read this whole thread and you guys fooled me. It's a pretty simple line of questioning and I would avoid it as well if I were arguing the other side.
I am neither pro-moose nor anti-moose.

I am opposed to most questions on any topic that begin with "Is it biblically permissable to...." That's Bible-abuse. That isn't what the Bible is for.

Let's look at the current environment of random shootings, mass murders, and hate-crimes against Christians and churches -- and then consider an appropriate and moral Christian response.

Last April, we had a deranged Trump-hater who stole a cache of guns and set off a massive man-hunt. Part of the story -- he had also visited a Lutheran church in Madison and set them on edge. So they cancelled Palm Sunday services, for the safety of everyone involved.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=33361&p=1134118&hi ... n#p1134118

If attacks are so likely, maybe we should stop meeting in public buildings that advertise the time of the meeting on a sign!
===============================

I won't spend much space to answer your questions, because I already wrote a long post above.

My discernment is that that a peace officer has a duty to put himself in harm's way for the safety of innocent persons. He is trained and armed to use deadly force, if necessary, and he authorized by the lawful civil authority. This is why the cop is different from the civilian.

The Christian believer in the pew has not been given the duty to carry a weapon, nor does he have authorization from lawful authority. At best, he has permission from the civil authorities. In the church, he still has a duty to submit to any disciplines laid down by the pastor, bishop, or elders... according to the tradition of that community.

And if we are confronted by an aggressor, an innocent Christian is permitted to defend himself. He is not morally required to do so, and many holy martyrs steadfastly refused to answer with violence.
==============================

There are good answers to the question of CCW in churches.... but we have to look at something larger and more alive than the Bible to find them.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

User avatar
Jester
Pastor
Pastor
Posts: 967
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:10 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Jester » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:11 pm

Ok, Can anyone answer this question?

Is it ok for a police officer to arrive at a church and shoot an active shooter?
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 18447
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by wosbald » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:23 pm

+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:11 pm
Ok, Can anyone answer this question?

Is it ok for a police officer to arrive at a church and shoot an active shooter?
I think that you should realize that your removal of "biblically" changes the entire complexion of this thread. So, what is the purpose of this thread, now?

What does the removal of "biblically" mean to you?

Are you now talking about Natural Law? Does Natural Law even factor into your calculus?

Or are you talking about Civil Law? If so, then that which is "okay" by Civil Law can cover a wide spectrum, some of which might be hostile to many of your previously stated positions.

Or are you talking about something else?

In view of CPS posting history, the blithe removal of the biblical context seems be a major earthquake. An earthquake which has implications of "biblical proportions."




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
Jester
Pastor
Pastor
Posts: 967
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:10 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Jester » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:45 pm

wosbald wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:23 pm
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:11 pm
Ok, Can anyone answer this question?

Is it ok for a police officer to arrive at a church and shoot an active shooter?
I think that you should realize that your removal of "biblically" changes the entire complexion of this thread. So, what is the purpose of this thread, now?

What does the removal of "biblically" mean to you?

Are you now talking about Natural Law? Does Natural Law even factor into your calculus?

Or are you talking about Civil Law? If so, then that which is "okay" by Civil Law can cover a wide spectrum, some of which might be hostile to many of your previously stated positions.

Or are you talking about something else?

In view of CPS posting history, the blithe removal of the biblical context seems be a major earthquake. An earthquake which has implications of "biblical proportions."

Is it ok for a police officer to arrive at a church and shoot an active shooter?

I will answer for you. For the love, YES. It's ok for a police officer to arrive at a church and shoot an active shooter.
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

User avatar
FredS
Really, really likes watching kids fish.
Really, really likes watching kids fish.
Posts: 19990
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by FredS » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:59 pm

Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:52 pm
wosbald wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:29 pm
+JMJ+
Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:30 am
EDIT: Thinking about this over lunch I now have a question to those who think we are not permitted biblically to carry in church.
Has anybody here taken that position?

Even Moose has clarified himself in that, biblically, there's neither a positive obligation to carry nor a positive restriction against banning.

That seems to be the default position on this thread, inasmuch as it's the one thing upon which everyone currently positing agrees.
Good grief. And someone nominated me for the "define yourself so I can disagree with you better" Morley.

Altered to remove "biblically" from same questions, posed to the "opposite of Moose crowd".
Is it ok for a police officer to arrive at a church and shoot an active shooter?
If yes.
Why is it permitted for an officer and not for anyone else?
If no.
Are we obligated to let shooters follow through?

IMHO you can say nobody is taking that position but I just read this whole thread and you guys fooled me. It's a pretty simple line of questioning and I would avoid it as well if I were arguing the other side.
Is it ok for a police officer to arrive at a church and shoot an active shooter?
Yes. Of course it is.

If yes.
Why is it permitted for an officer and not for anyone else?

You're building a straw man here. Who said it's not permissible for anyone else to shoot an active shooter?

If no.
Are we obligated to let shooters follow through?

Another straw man. Of course we're not obligated to let the shooter follow through. Del has mentioned martyrs who refused to use violence to stop a bad guy, but nobody has said we're obligated to let an attacker follow through undeterred.

Literally NOBODY has put forth either of the two positions that you've concluded are he only possible ones.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

Post Reply