Offending the Conscience

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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by FredS » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:06 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:51 am
FredS wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:07 am
I don't like it on the surface, but then I don't carry and don't feel the need to carry. That said, I'm quite sure there are guys at my local church who do. But the sanctuary is a place set apart. There are many things I don't/won't do there.

Also, the article UB posted is more about an idiot with a gun than it is about carrying a gun.
That's the problem, though. If everyone comes armed, you are only as safe in church as the dumbest idiot with a gun. Grandma isn't going to like that.
Without turning this into a concealed carry or gun control debate I'll offer a few comments.
1. Not "everyone comes armed". Some will, but most will not.
B. I s'pect we're more likely to be shot by a bad guy intent on harm at church (or anywhere) than by an accident-prone idiot.
2. What Grandma doesn't know won't hurt her. Every day, Grandma passes dozens of drivers on the road and shoppers at the grocery store who are carrying and she never even knows it.
3. Many people who don't carry, and don't understand how many of their fellow citizens do, think it'll be like the wild west if a bunch of people carry. Like a guy is going to pull out a gun and shot someone who swipes their parking spot at the mall or looks at their wife for one second too long. That mentality applies in the hood where guys are shooting each other over slights every night (with illegal guns btw) but not with regular gun-toting folk who'd rather let 'offenses' slide than use deadly force over something trivial. How likely is it that a regular dude will confront the parking lot offender with even a harsh word? It's way less likely they'd pull their gun out and start shooting.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by UncleBob » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:17 pm

FredS wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:06 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:51 am
FredS wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:07 am
I don't like it on the surface, but then I don't carry and don't feel the need to carry. That said, I'm quite sure there are guys at my local church who do. But the sanctuary is a place set apart. There are many things I don't/won't do there.

Also, the article UB posted is more about an idiot with a gun than it is about carrying a gun.
That's the problem, though. If everyone comes armed, you are only as safe in church as the dumbest idiot with a gun. Grandma isn't going to like that.
Without turning this into a concealed carry or gun control debate I'll offer a few comments.
1. Not "everyone comes armed". Some will, but most will not.
B. I s'pect we're more likely to be shot by a bad guy intent on harm at church (or anywhere) than by an accident-prone idiot.
2. What Grandma doesn't know won't hurt her. Every day, Grandma passes dozens of drivers on the road and shoppers at the grocery store who are carrying and she never even knows it.
3. Many people who don't carry, and don't understand how many of their fellow citizens do, think it'll be like the wild west if a bunch of people carry. Like a guy is going to pull out a gun and shot someone who swipes their parking spot at the mall or looks at their wife for one second too long. That mentality applies in the hood where guys are shooting each other over slights every night (with illegal guns btw) but not with regular gun-toting folk who'd rather let 'offenses' slide than use deadly force over something trivial. How likely is it that a regular dude will confront the parking lot offender with even a harsh word? It's way less likely they'd pull their gun out and start shooting.
1. Not everyone will come armed but the idiots are more likely to than normal folks. It sure is that way in Texas and was in MO.
B. More people are killed/wounded by accidental gun discharge that mass shooters. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
2. What grandma learns will hurt you. More women attend church than men and they tend to be older. This will become yet another reason for people to eschew church.
3. I carry a weapon--just not to church.

One other point: a church is a closed community in that while anyone within a city/state/etc. demographic may be welcome to attend they will most likely not do so. This is different than the general public. In Texas, 5.84% of the population has a CCW license [1] but this is higher in Evangelical circles. Heck, it is common for churches around here to offer CCW classes as a way for evangelization/out reach [2]. It is more likely than in the general population, due to a higher concentration of people who carry, that an accidental gun incident will harm someone than a mass shooting.

[1] https://www.gunstocarry.com/concealed-carry-statistics/
[2] for example: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/ ... 38235.html
Last edited by UncleBob on Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by hugodrax » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:25 pm

I'd like to hear from someone who thinks it's theologically permissible to carry in church. I'd like to understand the argument.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by FredS » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:30 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:17 pm
FredS wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:06 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:51 am
FredS wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:07 am
I don't like it on the surface, but then I don't carry and don't feel the need to carry. That said, I'm quite sure there are guys at my local church who do. But the sanctuary is a place set apart. There are many things I don't/won't do there.

Also, the article UB posted is more about an idiot with a gun than it is about carrying a gun.
That's the problem, though. If everyone comes armed, you are only as safe in church as the dumbest idiot with a gun. Grandma isn't going to like that.
Without turning this into a concealed carry or gun control debate I'll offer a few comments.
1. Not "everyone comes armed". Some will, but most will not.
B. I s'pect we're more likely to be shot by a bad guy intent on harm at church (or anywhere) than by an accident-prone idiot.
2. What Grandma doesn't know won't hurt her. Every day, Grandma passes dozens of drivers on the road and shoppers at the grocery store who are carrying and she never even knows it.
3. Many people who don't carry, and don't understand how many of their fellow citizens do, think it'll be like the wild west if a bunch of people carry. Like a guy is going to pull out a gun and shot someone who swipes their parking spot at the mall or looks at their wife for one second too long. That mentality applies in the hood where guys are shooting each other over slights every night (with illegal guns btw) but not with regular gun-toting folk who'd rather let 'offenses' slide than use deadly force over something trivial. How likely is it that a regular dude will confront the parking lot offender with even a harsh word? It's way less likely they'd pull their gun out and start shooting.
1. Not everyone will come armed but the idiots are more likely to than normal folks. It sure is that way in Texas and was in MO.
B. More people are killed/wounded by accidental gun discharge that mass shooters. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
2. What grandma learns will hurt you. More women attend church than men and they tend to be older. This will become yet another reason for people to eschew church.
3. I carry a weapon--just not to church.
B. You really twisted that one up. You're making comparisons to suit your argument. More people choke to death on meatballs than are killed by mass shooters (2014 meatball death statistics) but that's not the topic at hand. We're talking about all gun murders, not mass shootings, and you're certainly more likely to be killed by a bad guy than an idiotic good guy. Even the article you posted doesn't speak to death by gun(s) - a dillweed and his wife were wounded.

We're just arguing now for the sake of sport so you take one more shot and we'll call it good.
Last edited by FredS on Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by UncleBob » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:31 pm

FredS wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:30 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:17 pm
FredS wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:06 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:51 am
FredS wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:07 am
I don't like it on the surface, but then I don't carry and don't feel the need to carry. That said, I'm quite sure there are guys at my local church who do. But the sanctuary is a place set apart. There are many things I don't/won't do there.

Also, the article UB posted is more about an idiot with a gun than it is about carrying a gun.
That's the problem, though. If everyone comes armed, you are only as safe in church as the dumbest idiot with a gun. Grandma isn't going to like that.
Without turning this into a concealed carry or gun control debate I'll offer a few comments.
1. Not "everyone comes armed". Some will, but most will not.
B. I s'pect we're more likely to be shot by a bad guy intent on harm at church (or anywhere) than by an accident-prone idiot.
2. What Grandma doesn't know won't hurt her. Every day, Grandma passes dozens of drivers on the road and shoppers at the grocery store who are carrying and she never even knows it.
3. Many people who don't carry, and don't understand how many of their fellow citizens do, think it'll be like the wild west if a bunch of people carry. Like a guy is going to pull out a gun and shot someone who swipes their parking spot at the mall or looks at their wife for one second too long. That mentality applies in the hood where guys are shooting each other over slights every night (with illegal guns btw) but not with regular gun-toting folk who'd rather let 'offenses' slide than use deadly force over something trivial. How likely is it that a regular dude will confront the parking lot offender with even a harsh word? It's way less likely they'd pull their gun out and start shooting.
1. Not everyone will come armed but the idiots are more likely to than normal folks. It sure is that way in Texas and was in MO.
B. More people are killed/wounded by accidental gun discharge that mass shooters. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
2. What grandma learns will hurt you. More women attend church than men and they tend to be older. This will become yet another reason for people to eschew church.
3. I carry a weapon--just not to church.
B. You really twisted that one up. You're making comparisons to suit your argument. More people choke to death on meatballs than are killed by mass shooters (2014 meatball death statistics) but that's not the topic at hand. We're talking about all gun murders, not mass shootings, and you're certainly more likely to be killed by a bad guy than an idiotic good guy. Even the article you posted doesn't speak to death by gun(s) - a dillweed and his wife were wounded.
See above.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Del » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:57 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:25 pm
I'd like to hear from someone who thinks it's theologically permissible to carry in church. I'd like to understand the argument.
If it is theologically permissible to peacefully carry a weapon for the defense of innocents, then church is the same as any other peaceful gathering.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by wosbald » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:55 pm

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:25 pm
I'd like to hear from someone who thinks it's theologically permissible to carry in church. I'd like to understand the argument.
It's theologically licit simply because this is where theology opens up onto philosophy: Nature doesn't lose its right to self-defense when it's raised to Supernature.

OTOH, this line of argumentation puts the emPHAsis on the wrong sylLAble.

Cuz whether it's theologically licit has little to do with the exercise of Prudence, let alone that of Jurisdiction. Because Christian Liberty also and equally covers the liberty to ban guns at Church.*

So just who is supposed to be the "weaker" Christian? The one objecting to the the permissibility of carrying guns? Or the one objecting to the permissibility of banning them?

And is Protestantism even structurally equipped to resolve this impasse?







*Cuz the Natural Right also includes the right of the collective to self-defense through banning guns.




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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Roadmaster » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:30 pm

Just a few years ago who would have dreamed this conversation would be taking place in the US?
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Sir Moose » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:43 am

For those who seem to be having trouble with the concept of being armed in church, maybe you should consider that there were two swords present at the Last Supper. Jesus was present. They had Communion/Eucharist. They prayed. They sang a hymn. Sounds to me like weapons are just fine at church.

If it helps, in 1 Samuel 21, David asked the priest if there were any weapons around and the priest pulled Goliath's sword out from behind his ephod and handed it over to David.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Del » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:59 am

Sir Moose wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:43 am
For those who seem to be having trouble with the concept of being armed in church, maybe you should consider that there were two swords present at the Last Supper. Jesus was present. They had Communion/Eucharist. They prayed. They sang a hymn. Sounds to me like weapons are just fine at church.

If it helps, in 1 Samuel 21, David asked the priest if there were any weapons around and the priest pulled Goliath's sword out from behind his ephod and handed it over to David.
Our only concern here is that we don't know if this is what God really wants us to do, just because it seems to have happened a few times in the historical books of the Bible. There are numerous examples of circumstances mentioned in the Bible -- without any explicit statement that "Moses strictly warned us not to do this, back in Deuteronomy."

My opinion is that there is no theological rule about the peaceful presence of weapons in the church. There is only a cultural discipline, suitable to a particular time and place.
- If rival bands are likely to break out in a feud, then the bishop would do well to forbid any weapons in the church. Check your dirks before you enter the kirk!
- If the worship fears that it may be set upon by a mob of persecutors, we might all be encouraged to carry some weapon... in case we have to clobber someone to escape with our families.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by hugodrax » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:01 am

Sir Moose wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:43 am
For those who seem to be having trouble with the concept of being armed in church, maybe you should consider that there were two swords present at the Last Supper. Jesus was present. They had Communion/Eucharist. They prayed. They sang a hymn. Sounds to me like weapons are just fine at church.

If it helps, in 1 Samuel 21, David asked the priest if there were any weapons around and the priest pulled Goliath's sword out from behind his ephod and handed it over to David.
Wow. That's not exactly the sort of overwhelming scriptural authority I was hoping for. Don't get me wrong, I do understand why you believe it's ok and I'm not saying you're wrong.

I still have a hard time balancing men on the run having a couple of weapons in the corner vs armed parishioners in church scanning the exits and observing their fellow parishioners for signs of suspicious activity. Or Christ stopping St Peter from hacking his way through the crowd to save them both when the chips were really down.

I remain unconvinced by either side. I'm not sure they're licit and I'm unconvinced they're illicit. I think under the circumstances I'm probably stuck where I already was--that is, thinking that it's wrong for me because of my scruples but ok for someone that comes down on the other side of the issue.

I'm still troubled by the thought of Billy Joe BDUWearer working the security detail down at the First Church of the Out-of-Business Ford Dealership because I think it's asking for trouble. Maybe that is a congregation by congregation issue and rules have to be hashed out for each individual church.

As with everything else, there are rational approaches and irrational approaches. I used to have a CC permit and have thought about getting another one. I don't have a problem with guns or men and women choosing to arm themselves for their own or others protection. I have problems with the wrong approach some will take--not the "I hope I never need it but if I do I'm ready," but the "boy, let that jihadi/atheist protest group/general bad guy try it here" line of thinking. Not to mention what a pistol vs bump-stock equipped AR situation would be from the start.

I also wonder about the general effect. Those Texans are martyrs for their faith. Peaceful families worshipping together, their lives cut short by an evil man, provide a powerful testimony to the truth of their beliefs. Would a gun battle provide the same testimony?

I don't know. Maybe it's a question of "sure, you can...but should you?" Whatever is not expressly forbidden becomes a matter of conscience.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Del » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:35 am

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:01 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:43 am
For those who seem to be having trouble with the concept of being armed in church, maybe you should consider that there were two swords present at the Last Supper. Jesus was present. They had Communion/Eucharist. They prayed. They sang a hymn. Sounds to me like weapons are just fine at church.

If it helps, in 1 Samuel 21, David asked the priest if there were any weapons around and the priest pulled Goliath's sword out from behind his ephod and handed it over to David.
Wow. That's not exactly the sort of overwhelming scriptural authority I was hoping for. Don't get me wrong, I do understand why you believe it's ok and I'm not saying you're wrong.

I still have a hard time balancing men on the run having a couple of weapons in the corner vs armed parishioners in church scanning the exits and observing their fellow parishioners for signs of suspicious activity. Or Christ stopping St Peter from hacking his way through the crowd to save them both when the chips were really down.

I remain unconvinced by either side. I'm not sure they're licit and I'm unconvinced they're illicit. I think under the circumstances I'm probably stuck where I already was--that is, thinking that it's wrong for me because of my scruples but ok for someone that comes down on the other side of the issue.

I'm still troubled by the thought of Billy Joe BDUWearer working the security detail down at the First Church of the Out-of-Business Ford Dealership because I think it's asking for trouble. Maybe that is a congregation by congregation issue and rules have to be hashed out for each individual church.

As with everything else, there are rational approaches and irrational approaches. I used to have a CC permit and have thought about getting another one. I don't have a problem with guns or men and women choosing to arm themselves for their own or others protection. I have problems with the wrong approach some will take--not the "I hope I never need it but if I do I'm ready," but the "boy, let that jihadi/atheist protest group/general bad guy try it here" line of thinking. Not to mention what a pistol vs bump-stock equipped AR situation would be from the start.

I also wonder about the general effect. Those Texans are martyrs for their faith. Peaceful families worshipping together, their lives cut short by an evil man, provide a powerful testimony to the truth of their beliefs. Would a gun battle provide the same testimony?

I don't know. Maybe it's a question of "sure, you can...but should you?" Whatever is not expressly forbidden becomes a matter of conscience.
+1.

I don't have a firm opinion, either. And I agree that a prudent Christian could come down on either side of this discussion.

Which is why it is good to discuss it.

We have been fortunate in Madison, thus far. No violent hate crimes yet. But we have seen a terrible increase in the number of random shootings this year, and a record number of homocides.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/ ... 2389c.html
Through July 11, police have confirmed 101 incidents of shots fired in Madison, a 53 percent increase over the same period last year. The number of homicides has also risen — from six in 2015, eight in 2016, to 10 people killed so far in the city this year, tying the record set in 2008.
And simply attending church is now seen as a threatening political statement against the easily irritated Left here. In Madison, the level of hate-speech likely to incite violence against Christians (and against our bishop, in particular) has stepped up dramatically in social media and Letters to the Editor.

My parish has some Knights of Columbus members who are military Reservists, and they lead an informal shooting club. For fun, mainly, and they would still do this together in the most peaceful of times. But our pastor has expressed some comfort in knowing that we have responsible, skilled, CCW guys in the congregation.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Roadmaster » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:46 am

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:35 am

And simply attending church is now seen as a threatening political statement against the easily irritated Left here.
So much for giving political comments/opinions a rest.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Del » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:28 am

Roadmaster wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:46 am
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:35 am

And simply attending church is now seen as a threatening political statement against the easily irritated Left here.
So much for giving political comments/opinions a rest.
I know. Everything is "political" now, from healthcare to church worship. I hate it.

But this is not a theoretical threat. It was only five years ago that a hate-crime shooter opened fire on a Sikh temple in Milwaukee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin ... e_shooting

At the time, we assured ourselves that he was a loner nut-job and it won't happen again. But it just keeps getting worse.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by hugodrax » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:44 am

Del wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:28 am
Roadmaster wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:46 am
Del wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:35 am

And simply attending church is now seen as a threatening political statement against the easily irritated Left here.
So much for giving political comments/opinions a rest.
I know. Everything is "political" now, from healthcare to church worship. I hate it.

But this is not a theoretical threat. It was only five years ago that a hate-crime shooter opened fire on a Sikh temple in Milwaukee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin ... e_shooting

At the time, we assured ourselves that he was a loner nut-job and it won't happen again. But it just keeps getting worse.
Easy now, Del.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Del » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:59 am

Image
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Sir Moose » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:26 pm

wosbald wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:55 pm

So just who is supposed to be the "weaker" Christian? The one objecting to the the permissibility of carrying guns? Or the one objecting to the permissibility of banning them?
Based on what Paul has written in his epistles, the weaker Christian is the one who adds extra-biblical rules in an effort to remain righteous. Since there is no biblical prohibition against weapons in church, prohibiting them would be an extra-biblical rule and therefore would make the prohibitionists the weaker Christians.

While I'm thinking of it, I wanted to add another thought regarding the disciples being told to get swords at the Last Supper. When Jesus told them to get swords, they responded "Behold, here are two swords." It is very likely (although we cannot know for certain), that they already had those two swords. It doesn't seem likely that they took them from their host's house. They had just met the host for the first time that day. Taking his swords would have been overstepping a bit.

Likely, when Jesus told them to get swords, his intent was to make them aware of the coming difficulties and that they would need to be able to defend themselves in the tough days to come. He probably was not implying that they had no swords and were needing to immediately acquire some. As an imperfect analogy, it would be like if you heard that your friend was going to drive to a store in the middle of Bigcity that they had never been to before. You happen to know that the streets in downtown Bigcity are confusing and it's easy to get turned around. You might tell your friend, "If you don't have one, you're going to want to get a good map." You aren't assuming that they have no maps; you are warning them that the map is probably going to be needed.

On another note, I've seen a few hints of the Peter and Malchus issue being brought up. Not only is it a red herring in this discussion (since it is not taking place in anything resembling a church/worship service), but it's also easily addressed.

First of all, Jesus simply told Peter to put the sword back in its sheath--not to get rid of it. And don't forget that Jesus had told the disciples to get swords just a few hours earlier.

Secondly, Peter was brandishing his sword against a group that many scholars believe included an entire Roman cohort, plus a number of men from the temple armed with "swords and staves." Any attempt to fight them off would have been suicide. Plus, the soldiers/mob would likely not have stopped with killing Peter, but would probably have wiped out all of the disciples.

Third, if Peter had been successful, what would it have accomplished? He would have saved Jesus from going to the cross. Not beneficial in the long run. That's why Jesus said, "the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" It's also why Jesus didn't feel the need to call upon his Father for 12 legions of angels, which certainly would have been able to accomplish more than Peter and his sword.

So, to head off any problems, Jesus told Peter to put it away and went the extra step of healing Malchus' ear.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by JMG » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:07 pm

Back in November of '15, after two years of language study, I finally passed all of evaluations and was cleared to begin translation and curriculum development. Only about 12 hours after passing my evals gunshots began to ring out in our village. I told the two NTM leadership guys that came to do my language evals to go to my house and tell my wife what was happening (I have gone over safety protocols with my wife and she knew what to do.) While they were doing that I ran across the river where everything was happening to find out exactly what was going on (Side note: There had been lot of tribal fighting the months prior to this.) When I got to my friend's house everyone was already donning war paint and carrying either homemade shotguns, bow and arrows, and/or bush knives.

A lady named Rosa was there crying. She had just arrived from a closely neighboring village. Word had reached that village that a raiding party was on their way to kill her. So, her adopted son (who had been in our village only two weeks prior threatening to shoot some folks) had escorted her to the river and told her to come to our village bc the Christians would take care of her. Upon that guy's return to his village the raiders shot and killed him instead. There were rumors they were on their way to our village to kill members of a certain clan. So, my guys were popping off warning shots to scare them away. They told me, "JM, back in Fiyawena (old village) they had guns and we didn't and they killed us. But now we have guns too. So, if they are hiding in the bush we want them to know we have guns. Maybe if they hear them they will get scared and leave." I thought this was wise thinking and told them so. However, about that time they turned to me and asked, "JM, if they come here and try to kill us or our families, can we kill them? Will God be angry with us if we do? Can we still go to His house when we die?" I had literally just passed my language evals only 12 before. I had never felt more inadequate in my life. I gave some talk off the cuff. However, after I had some time to pray, process, and think, Holy Spirit laid the story of Nehemiah on my heart. I ended up teaching the church that story. Specifically I thought about how God had given the Israelites a job to do, how ungodly people were mad about it and wanted to mess them and their plans up, and how the Israelites chose to work with a sword in one hand and a hammer in the other. We discussed what God's work was for them in our village and how ungodly people wanted to mess things up. By the wisdom given through the book of Nehemiah I taught the Hewa that it was OK for them to be ready for a fight, but not to go looking for one. We discussed many other things related to this and talked for hours about how to practically implement this. It went over really well with the Hewa and I've seen quite a few of them grow spiritually in this area.

You see, we don't have a church building/sanctuary in the same sense that we would in the States. We have a structure with a thatch roof, but more so our people see our village as a whole as "holy ground" for lack of better terms. They say that many Hewa people in other villages have rejected God's talk, but God is building his family in Yifki (our village). So, in a way, I guess that carrying at all in our village is similar to carrying in a Sanctuary back home. And if that is not sitting well with some of you, they even carry up to the structure were we meet at and bow and arrows, etc are often leaned against the wall.

I wold argue that most things that are not alright to do in the sanctuary are probably best not to be done anywhere. The building is just that. God's throne resides in our spirit. So, for me the question would not be is it alright to carry at church, but is it alright to carry at all. I believe it is.
Last edited by JMG on Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by UncleBob » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:10 pm

Wow. Let's look at the text:
Luke 22 wrote:31Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

33“Lord,” said Peter, “I am ready to go with You even to prison and to death.”

34But Jesus replied, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me.”

35Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you out without purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36“Now, however,” He told them, “the one with a purse should take it, and likewise a bag; and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. 37For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’b For what is written about Me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38So they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That is enough,” He answered.
It's pretty clear why Jesus wanted the people there with swords: to fulfill the prophecy that he would be among transgressors. That should give us all pause. And while we are at it:
John 18 wrote:8“I told you that I am He,” Jesus replied. “So if you are looking for Me, let these men go.” 9This was to fulfill the word He had spoken: “I have not lost one of those You have given Me.”

10Then Simon Peter drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. 11“Put your sword back in its sheath!” Jesus said to Peter. “Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given Me?”
Shall we not drink the cup the Father have given us? This is something to contemplate.
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Re: Offending the Conscience

Post by Sir Moose » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:24 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:10 pm
Wow. Let's look at the text:
Luke 22 wrote:31Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift each of you like wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

33“Lord,” said Peter, “I am ready to go with You even to prison and to death.”

34But Jesus replied, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me.”

35Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you out without purse or bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”

“Nothing,” they answered.

36“Now, however,” He told them, “the one with a purse should take it, and likewise a bag; and the one without a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. 37For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’b For what is written about Me is reaching its fulfillment.”

38So they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.”

“That is enough,” He answered.
It's pretty clear why Jesus wanted the people there with swords: to fulfill the prophecy that he would be among transgressors. That should give us all pause.
If I understand correctly what you're trying to say, then I believe you are misunderstanding Jesus' statement. It sounds like you're saying that he told them to get swords so that they would be transgressors and he would be then be "with the transgressors." I believe what Jesus was actually saying was that he was about to be numbered with the transgressors and crucified, thereby leaving the disciples without Jesus there to look out for them. Therefore, they needed to provide for their own safety from that point forward.
And while we are at it:
John 18 wrote:8“I told you that I am He,” Jesus replied. “So if you are looking for Me, let these men go.” 9This was to fulfill the word He had spoken: “I have not lost one of those You have given Me.”

10Then Simon Peter drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. 11“Put your sword back in its sheath!” Jesus said to Peter. “Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given Me?”
Shall we not drink the cup the Father have given us? This is something to contemplate.
Um...that was the cup the Father gave Jesus. It's not necessarily the cup he has given us. I will grant that there are times that it is appropriate for a Christian to passively accept whatever is being done to them, but it is not a universal command. There are also times that it is appropriate for a Christian to fight tooth and nail to defeat evil. There is rarely any spiritual benefit to standing by and watching helplessly while a crazed lunatic kills women and children all around you.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

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