Jerusalem

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tuttle
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Jerusalem

Post by tuttle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am

This might be blurring the line a little, as I see our TOS politics ban has been extended until February...but my interest for this thread is Theological in nature. Obviously the news is that the US will now recognize Jerusalem as the rightful capital of Israel, etc...but I don't want to discuss the political ramifications of this as much as I want to explore/discuss/etc the theological impact.

There is a sect of protestant theology that is called dispensationalism, and this recent news has a lot of them in a flutter of excitement. Theologically speaking, this is disturbing to me. They are of the opinion that the Temple in Jerusalem will one day be rebuilt and it is a sign of Christ returning and rapture and Armageddon etc. Not a few of them have a belief that the US, as a superpower, cannot help but have a part to play as a player in the end times, especially as it concerns the state of Israel. I've heard over and over from people of this theological bent that the only reason for the US's success on the world stage is because of her relationship with Israel. Essentially the idea being that God will bless those who are snuggly with the state of Israel. And so this new recognition by the US of Jerusalem being the official capital is, to them, one step closer to their understanding of the end times.

Aside from much of this theology being ultimately a reversion back to the Jewish Law and customs, I find this disturbing just in the same way I find evangelicals or mainliners who cling to US political parties and entwine their theological/ethical agendas with them. That is, tying yourself theologically to a group(or people/or philosophy/or whatever) whose identity and aims which are not line with the gospel or even steadfastly anti-gospel, and then espousing the idea that God will bless any one/group/nation who will simply align itself along with that particular group, you are only asking for trouble. In this particular case, the idea that the Temple must be rebuilt, the only way in which that will happen is if the Dome of the Rock is torn down first, and there is no way that will happen without bloodshed.

That said, I'm not denying that Jerusalem is not a very special place, nor that it is without historical or even spiritual value for Christianity. But we ought to be looking towards the New Jerusalem that will come down from heaven. Jesus is savior to both Jew and Palestinian (and stupid Americans), and he has come so that our worship no longer need be tied to the Temple.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by infidel » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:41 am

Yes, but...

To these people who view Revelation as a crystal ball into literal future events, the new Jerusalem doesn't come down until certain other things happen frist, and some of those things require a Temple to be in place. So you can look towards that new Jerusalem but until the Antichrist has a Temple to desecrate, or whatever, it's just so much wishful thinking.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Joshoowah » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:43 am

Yup.



I have much more to say on this but I'll refrain for the most part. Nevertheless, I am with you in your confusion of dispensationalist theology. It just does not seem to track with the overall gospel message and its outcome. Even when I was knee deep in biblical study classes at seminary, many of the top notch scholars for the New Testament worked at seminaries that focused on dispensationalist theology (e.g. Daniel Wallace and Darrell Bock), which baffled me to no end.

Infidel's comment above pretty much sums it up though, that is, how apocalyptic literature is viewed amongst dispensationalists.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by wosbald » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:52 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am
This might be blurring the line a little, as I see our TOS politics ban has been extended until February...but my interest for this thread is Theological in nature. …
Image




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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Goose55 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am
I'm not denying that Jerusalem is not a very special place, nor that it is without historical or even spiritual value for Christianity. But we ought to be looking towards the New Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
YUp. It is written that even Abraham, way back when, looked "for a city whose builder and Maker was God."
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Skip » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:21 pm

wosbald wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:52 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am
This might be blurring the line a little, as I see our TOS politics ban has been extended until February...but my interest for this thread is Theological in nature. …
Image
Observe how this progresses, we will.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Del » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:33 pm

It seems to me that Dispensationalism is a uniquely American phenomenon.

(I prefer to call it Darbyism, after the inventor of this new thing... but nobody knows what I'm talking about.)

When are Evangelicals going to follow the example of the Bible?... hold a council of your apostolic delegates, and decide exactly what the biblical truth is, according to the Holy Spirit and yourselves.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Del » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am
I'm not denying that Jerusalem is not a very special place, nor that it is without historical or even spiritual value for Christianity. But we ought to be looking towards the New Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
YUp. It is written that even Abraham, way back when, looked "for a city whose builder and Maker was God."
Jesus established His Kingdom on Peter. Perhaps we should look there.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Cleon » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:46 pm

So, what is the capital of Israel?
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by tuttle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:11 pm

Cleon wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:46 pm
So, what is the capital of Israel?
"I"
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Goose55 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:17 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am
I'm not denying that Jerusalem is not a very special place, nor that it is without historical or even spiritual value for Christianity. But we ought to be looking towards the New Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
YUp. It is written that even Abraham, way back when, looked "for a city whose builder and Maker was God."
Jesus established His Kingdom on Peter. Perhaps we should look there.
But the Kingdom of Glory is our destination.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by tuttle » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:22 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am
I'm not denying that Jerusalem is not a very special place, nor that it is without historical or even spiritual value for Christianity. But we ought to be looking towards the New Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
YUp. It is written that even Abraham, way back when, looked "for a city whose builder and Maker was God."
Jesus established His Kingdom on Peter. Perhaps we should look there.
I thought he established his Church on Peter and gave him the keys to the Kingdom...this may be the most oblivious question but does the RC believe that the Church is the Kingdom and the Kingdom is the Church? I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it is something I'm ignorant on about if that's what Rome teaches or not.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by DepartedLight » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:39 pm

peeks in.

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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Del » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:58 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:22 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am
I'm not denying that Jerusalem is not a very special place, nor that it is without historical or even spiritual value for Christianity. But we ought to be looking towards the New Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
YUp. It is written that even Abraham, way back when, looked "for a city whose builder and Maker was God."
Jesus established His Kingdom on Peter. Perhaps we should look there.
I thought he established his Church on Peter and gave him the keys to the Kingdom...this may be the most oblivious question but does the RC believe that the Church is the Kingdom and the Kingdom is the Church? I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it is something I'm ignorant on about if that's what Rome teaches or not.
Yes. Kingdom of God = the Church. By "Church," we mean the communion of saints, on earth and in heaven, join as one with Christ as our head and the Holy Spirit as our soul. The physical and spiritual Church which Jesus established on earth is the part of His Kingdom which is visible to us.

Christ is the King, and Peter's successors are the stewards of His Kingdom.

We speak about doing ministry "in service of the Church" interchangeably with "in service of the Kingdom."
=============================================

To be honest -- I am equally shocked that Bible Christians are no aware of this. What do you think the biblical Kingdom of God is?
=============================================

Jesus preached, "Repent! For the Kingdom of God is here!"

And everyone expected a physical kingdom, free of Roman rule.

But Jesus established a Church. That is what He gave us.

In his books on Jesus of Nazareth, Pope Benedict admits that we were promised a kingdom and what we got was a Church, and we still feel swindled somehow.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Jester » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:11 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:11 pm
Cleon wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:46 pm
So, what is the capital of Israel?
"I"
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Jester » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:13 am

Cleon wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:46 pm
So, what is the capital of Israel?
I am curious how Amazon's Alexa would answer this question.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by FredS » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:20 am

Dammit. I find myself (mostly) in agreement with Del.

Though I'm sure he and I would disagree on whether "Peter's successors" have stewarded the Kingdom faithfully and whether or not they still hold stewardship.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by tuttle » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:22 am

Del wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:58 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:22 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am
I'm not denying that Jerusalem is not a very special place, nor that it is without historical or even spiritual value for Christianity. But we ought to be looking towards the New Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
YUp. It is written that even Abraham, way back when, looked "for a city whose builder and Maker was God."
Jesus established His Kingdom on Peter. Perhaps we should look there.
I thought he established his Church on Peter and gave him the keys to the Kingdom...this may be the most oblivious question but does the RC believe that the Church is the Kingdom and the Kingdom is the Church? I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it is something I'm ignorant on about if that's what Rome teaches or not.
Yes. Kingdom of God = the Church. By "Church," we mean the communion of saints, on earth and in heaven, join as one with Christ as our head and the Holy Spirit as our soul. The physical and spiritual Church which Jesus established on earth is the part of His Kingdom which is visible to us.

Christ is the King, and Peter's successors are the stewards of His Kingdom.

We speak about doing ministry "in service of the Church" interchangeably with "in service of the Kingdom."
=============================================

To be honest -- I am equally shocked that Bible Christians are no aware of this. What do you think the biblical Kingdom of God is?
=============================================

Jesus preached, "Repent! For the Kingdom of God is here!"

And everyone expected a physical kingdom, free of Roman rule.

But Jesus established a Church. That is what He gave us.

In his books on Jesus of Nazareth, Pope Benedict admits that we were promised a kingdom and what we got was a Church, and we still feel swindled somehow.
Thanks for the explanation.

Are you shocked that Bible Christians are not aware of Rome's position?

I think you'd find many a'Bible Christian in agreement with you (insofar as the Pope is not involved) and would even use the same lingo**. That's not to say there is uniformity among them (gasp of feigned disbelief).

Since you asked, I believe the biblical Kingdom of God was inaugurated with the coming of Christ, thus making it originally "pre-church". But the cool thing about the kingdom is that it keeps increasing and I believe that the church is the clearest expression of what the Kingdom of God is on earth insofar as she is faithful to her bridegroom. I also believe the Kingdom has not yet come into its fullness (but will it ever? I have the glorious suspicion that it will continue increasing forever.)




----------
**EDIT: see FredS's response above
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Del » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:05 am

tuttle wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:22 am
Since you asked, I believe the biblical Kingdom of God was inaugurated with the coming of Christ, thus making it originally "pre-church". But the cool thing about the kingdom is that it keeps increasing and I believe that the church is the clearest expression of what the Kingdom of God is on earth insofar as she is faithful to her bridegroom. I also believe the Kingdom has not yet come into its fullness (but will it ever? I have the glorious suspicion that it will continue increasing forever.)
That makes sense.... John the Baptist was already telling the world to "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is coming!" well before Jesus revealed Himself.

The Church must increase! That is the point of Jesus's parable, "The Kingdom of God is a like a mustard seed..."
And that is why Jesus commanded us to "Go and make disciples of all nations."

And we can agree that Kingdom is established, but not yet fulfilled. From the Catechism:
1060 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be "all in all" (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.
=========================

It sounds like we are very much on the same page, even if our traditions prefer different words to describe it.

I love it, how we are more intimately united in Christ through His Church than we would be as mere subjects of His Kingdom. God's wisdom surpasses human wisdom.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by tuttle » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:29 am

Del wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:05 am
God's wisdom surpasses human wisdom.
Amen!
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