Jerusalem

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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Del » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:17 pm

tuttle wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:22 am
Thanks for the explanation.

Are you shocked that Bible Christians are not aware of Rome's position?
Note on this one:

Yes, I really was surprised.

Catholics believe that our faith is deeply biblical. It surprises us when "Bible" Christians disagree.

We know the usual points of dispute with Evangelical Bible Christians -- Mary, the Eucharist, other sacraments, priesthood, hierarchy, taking books out of the Bible, etc. I have heard Evangelicals explain these things and offer alternative teachings.

I have never heard an Evangelical say, "The Church is not Christ's Kingdom. Jesus was just making a metaphor."
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Del » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 pm

Back on topic:

I tried to search the web and educate myself on why the Dispensational tradition teaches that the Jews have to rebuild the Temple before Jesus comes.

OMG! There is a whole dark web filled with people scrying the Bible for secret augeries of the future.... with complex charts, etc.

What a waste of study and effort.

Image

There are just as many sites devoted to educating and preaching against Darbyism.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by tuttle » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:35 pm

Del wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 pm
Back on topic:

I tried to search the web and educate myself on why the Dispensational tradition teaches that the Jews have to rebuild the Temple before Jesus comes.

OMG! There is a whole dark web filled with people scrying the Bible for secret augeries of the future.... with complex charts, etc.
:lol:

Now imagine how horrible it is to grow up as a child in this kind of theological system and do two things: 1) rejoice that you were never subjected to this theological abuse and 2) empathize with people who have had to spend a large part of their Christian life battling against this beast just in order to arrive at what Christianity has been saying for the previous 1800 years.

I was subjected to this theology as a child in church. Looking back it was, thankfully, a watered down version of it. I can vividly remember the moment I realized that there were different ways of interpreting the Scriptures. It was a profound feeling of betrayal. A lot of mountains had to be laid low before any valleys could be raised up again. But thankfully much of this shaking up happened when I was still young and had for my age what was probably an uncommon thirst for the truth that drove my studies.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by durangopipe » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:36 pm

Del wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 pm
people scrying the Bible for secret augeries of the future...
“Auguries” is a perfectly chosen word.

The way dispensationalists pour over Revelation and find prophetic meaning, always related to current events, is not unlike the way a pagan might observe and draw meaning from observation of the flight of “an eagle with a dove in its talons flying to the right.”

And as profitable.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by durangopipe » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:09 pm

While British/Irish theologian and one of the founders of the Plymouth Bretheren, John Nelson Darby, is credited with being the father of dispensationalist hermeneutics, its widespread popularity among American fundamentalists is likely more directly associated with Cyrus I. Scofield whose annotated (King James) Reference Bible was carried to church under the arms and read in many of the homes of American fundamentalist Protestants.

I have several copies from my youth. When I hear scripture, I still “hear” it in my mind and “see” it there with his red underlining, references and notes. To many, Scofield’s notes are as canonical as scripture itself.

Sunday school was taught from it, and our pastor delivered sermons from it.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by wosbald » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:23 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:35 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 pm
Back on topic:

I tried to search the web and educate myself on why the Dispensational tradition teaches that the Jews have to rebuild the Temple before Jesus comes.

OMG! There is a whole dark web filled with people scrying the Bible for secret augeries of the future.... with complex charts, etc.
:lol:

Now imagine how horrible it is to grow up as a child in this kind of theological system and do two things: 1) rejoice that you were never subjected to this theological abuse and 2) empathize with people who have had to spend a large part of their Christian life battling against this beast just in order to arrive at what Christianity has been saying for the previous 1800 years.

I was subjected to this theology as a child in church. Looking back it was, thankfully, a watered down version of it. I can vividly remember the moment I realized that there were different ways of interpreting the Scriptures. It was a profound feeling of betrayal. A lot of mountains had to be laid low before any valleys could be raised up again. But thankfully much of this shaking up happened when I was still young and had for my age what was probably an uncommon thirst for the truth that drove my studies.
Do you realize that, as It seems to me, a Dominionistic strain of Calvinist theology (perhaps, as typified by Pence?) has politically aligned with the interests of Dispensationalist theology? Strange bedfellows and all that.

How might straight-up, classical Calvinism (assuming that you even identify with such anymore) propose to disarm the threat of this assumed intersection? Did Calvin's Geneva set a pattern and precedent in this regard which, haunting the system to this day, can't be exorcised with the theological tools at Calvinism's disposal?

And what other forms of strange, mutational alliance might be awaiting us in this now-uncertain future?




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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Del » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:29 am

wosbald wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:23 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:35 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 pm
Back on topic:

I tried to search the web and educate myself on why the Dispensational tradition teaches that the Jews have to rebuild the Temple before Jesus comes.

OMG! There is a whole dark web filled with people scrying the Bible for secret augeries of the future.... with complex charts, etc.
:lol:

Now imagine how horrible it is to grow up as a child in this kind of theological system and do two things: 1) rejoice that you were never subjected to this theological abuse and 2) empathize with people who have had to spend a large part of their Christian life battling against this beast just in order to arrive at what Christianity has been saying for the previous 1800 years.

I was subjected to this theology as a child in church. Looking back it was, thankfully, a watered down version of it. I can vividly remember the moment I realized that there were different ways of interpreting the Scriptures. It was a profound feeling of betrayal. A lot of mountains had to be laid low before any valleys could be raised up again. But thankfully much of this shaking up happened when I was still young and had for my age what was probably an uncommon thirst for the truth that drove my studies.
Do you realize that, as It seems to me, a Dominionistic strain of Calvinist theology (perhaps, as typified by Pence?) has politically aligned with the interests of Dispensationalist theology? Strange bedfellows and all that.

How might straight-up, classical Calvinism (assuming that you even identify with such anymore) propose to disarm the threat of this assumed intersection? Did Calvin's Geneva set a pattern and precedent in this regard which, haunting the system to this day, can't be exorcised with the theological tools at Calvinism's disposal?

And what other forms of strange, mutational alliance might be awaiting us in this now-uncertain future?
Did you just invite them to call a council, discern the truth of the Holy Spirit, and condemn any errors?

'Cause I already did.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by mustangii » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:55 am

Del wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am
I'm not denying that Jerusalem is not a very special place, nor that it is without historical or even spiritual value for Christianity. But we ought to be looking towards the New Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
YUp. It is written that even Abraham, way back when, looked "for a city whose builder and Maker was God."
Jesus established His Kingdom on Peter. Perhaps we should look there.
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He questioned His disciples: “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
20Then He admonished the disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.

The question is, Did Jesus build his Church on Peter or the Truthful answer to Jesus' question? also was Daniel talking about far future and the antichrist, or Antiochus Epiphanes mentioned in Maccabees? lots more questions.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Del » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:23 pm

mustangii wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:55 am
Del wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am
I'm not denying that Jerusalem is not a very special place, nor that it is without historical or even spiritual value for Christianity. But we ought to be looking towards the New Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
YUp. It is written that even Abraham, way back when, looked "for a city whose builder and Maker was God."
Jesus established His Kingdom on Peter. Perhaps we should look there.
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He questioned His disciples: “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
20Then He admonished the disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.

The question is, Did Jesus build his Church on Peter or the Truthful answer to Jesus' question? also was Daniel talking about far future and the antichrist, or Antiochus Epiphanes mentioned in Maccabees? lots more questions.
edm
As we read the words of Scripture that you quoted, it is hard to imagine that Jesus is not telling Simon that he has a new name, and a new job to do, and a full authority to do it.

It takes a lot of biblical gymnastics to say that Jesus built His church on Peter's words, but not on Peter. And that "Simon the Rock" was really "Peter the Pebble." And that the Church that Jesus gave us is not the Kingdom that Jesus was preaching about.
===================================

As far as prophecy goes.... this question gets to the heart of tuttle's OP. The prophecy in Daniel certainly foretold the events of Maccabees. Just as the prophecies of Christ concerning Jerusalem ("not one stone left upon another, get out when you see the abomination in the Temple") applied to the Romans in 70 AD.

But could these prophecies apply to other events, as well?
- Perhaps, but we won't know it until after they are fulfilled!

What offends me most about the commercial efforts of the modern dispensationalists is this: They defy Jesus's admonition that we can not know the day nor the hour -- they presume that the prophecies can precisely predict future events before they are fulfilled.

Here is a famous example of a prophecy fulfilled, yet secretly foretelling an even greater thing:
Isaiah 7 wrote:10 Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11 “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign: The virgin[d] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[e] will call him Immanuel.[f] 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”
This prophecy was originally about the invasion of Assyria, fulfilled in the time it took a newborn infant to grow up enough to pick out the good curds from his bowl.

It wasn't until much later, after Jesus had died and rose, that the core of this prophecy was shown to have been fulfilled again, in abundance, in the Incarnation of Christ.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by mustangii » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:57 pm

Sometimes it's not very fun being a none dispensationlist that worships in the Baptist tradition. We were doing a Bible study on Revelation on Sunday evenings. The book they were using was very dispensational and had a hard time keeping a leash on my tongue.

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Re: Jerusalem

Post by FredS » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:29 pm

Del wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:23 pm
. . .What offends me most about the commercial efforts of the modern dispensationalists is this: They defy Jesus's admonition that we can not know the day nor the hour -- they presume that the prophecies can precisely predict future events before they are fulfilled. . .
Whoomp! There it is.

If we know how prophecy will turn out, particularly in regards to 'end times', we'll try to game the system. It's like that hidden camera show where actors present provocative events on unknowing citizens to see how they will act. If everyone knew they were being filmed they would of course act differently. More courageous or righteous or caring or whatever the situation called for. If I somehow knew exactly when my time will be up, you can bet your sweet bippy that I'd live differently (for me it would be what I do with my money) until almost the very end when I'd throw my get-out-of-hell card down and waltz right in.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by tuttle » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:56 am

wosbald wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:23 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:35 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:52 pm
Back on topic:

I tried to search the web and educate myself on why the Dispensational tradition teaches that the Jews have to rebuild the Temple before Jesus comes.

OMG! There is a whole dark web filled with people scrying the Bible for secret augeries of the future.... with complex charts, etc.
:lol:

Now imagine how horrible it is to grow up as a child in this kind of theological system and do two things: 1) rejoice that you were never subjected to this theological abuse and 2) empathize with people who have had to spend a large part of their Christian life battling against this beast just in order to arrive at what Christianity has been saying for the previous 1800 years.

I was subjected to this theology as a child in church. Looking back it was, thankfully, a watered down version of it. I can vividly remember the moment I realized that there were different ways of interpreting the Scriptures. It was a profound feeling of betrayal. A lot of mountains had to be laid low before any valleys could be raised up again. But thankfully much of this shaking up happened when I was still young and had for my age what was probably an uncommon thirst for the truth that drove my studies.
Do you realize that, as It seems to me, a Dominionistic strain of Calvinist theology (perhaps, as typified by Pence?) has politically aligned with the interests of Dispensationalist theology? Strange bedfellows and all that.

How might straight-up, classical Calvinism (assuming that you even identify with such anymore) propose to disarm the threat of this assumed intersection? Did Calvin's Geneva set a pattern and precedent in this regard which, haunting the system to this day, can't be exorcised with the theological tools at Calvinism's disposal?

And what other forms of strange, mutational alliance might be awaiting us in this now-uncertain future?
I'm not sure what you mean by Dominionistic strain of Calvinist theology. I have an understanding of that in what I think can be packed into that term, but I'm not sure what you mean by it.

However, if we want to speak of a generalized Calvinist mashing with Dispensationalism then, yes, odd bedfellows, however, it might be more rampant than you think. I kind of want to blame the Baptists. As often, with most superheros, their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness...and by this I mean their 'freedom' as autonomous local churches to determine their faith and practice, not having one imposed upon them from a higher state or denomination. With great freedom comes great responsibility and lets just say that many baptists have not been responsible (let's hold off for now as to whether or not that is a good idea...I know the Roman Catholic opinion on this). But this 'freedom' has resulted in not only the clashing of theologies from church to church, but also the merging of theologies. Imagine a church that urges charity and unity among its members above certain aspects of a theological tradition. When people of opposing theologies come together the Unity Hammer pounds the square peg through the round hole and after a while everyone thinks that's how things ought to be. So you have Baptist churches with a strong hatred for all things Calvinist, who have a basket of rotten tomatoes ready for anything sounding calvinistic...but subscribe to 4 outta 5 points of Calvinism's soteriology. So it's not surprising to come across a Baptist church that looks like a theological version of one of those restaurants that keep collecting crap to hang on the wall. A little bit of this and a little bit of that all thrown into a stew and melded together.

I overemphasize, to a degree, but there is truth and reality in what I'm saying. And if Baptists are doing it, you can betcha that all the non-denoms are doing it too. Look no further than people like John MacArthur, who has a huge influence. He's as straight up Calvinist as he is dispensationalist. I'm sure he's had to tweak a few things but he's woven them together and sister, lemme tell ya, that his dispensationalism takes the edge off of Calvinism and that Calvinism gives a hint of credibility to the dispensationalism and it goes down so smooth that people are gonna drink that $%*# all night until they don't know what hit them til the morning. That is to say, it's a rather popular concoction for a lot of people.

Now add to that a heaping spoonful of Jesus in a #MAGA hat and you're getting a clue as to what's making some of these folks tic.
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Cleon » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:00 am

Really, what is the capital of Israel - Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Who get's the final say?
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by Jester » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:13 am

Cleon wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:00 am
Really, what is the capital of Israel - Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Who get's the final say?
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by wosbald » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:45 am

+JMJ+

May be relevant to this thread: CLICK




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Re: Jerusalem

Post by DepartedLight » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:00 pm

Cleon wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:00 am
Really, what is the capital of Israel - Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Who get's the final say?
Young grasshoppah,

Tel Aviv is the physical capital of the Nation State of Israel.

Jerusalem is the heart capital of the all that is spiritual, scriptural, cross religiosity of many idiocies, wobble headed ideas centuries old and twice as long formulating,

Did I get everyone?

I'd just like to have a few small stones from the old sections. But, I'm thinking that might be fairly illegal. So. If I ever find myself at Tel Aviv airport with a few hours to kill, I'll take the bus to Golgotha. An uncle who has spend a lot of time in Jerusalem, told me it's just a short but steep walk from the bus stop.

I wonder if I would be able to tune out the surrounding sounds and distractions to try to take in where I was kneeling.

I wonder how long it would take.

Is there that quiet?
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Re: Jerusalem

Post by hugodrax » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:09 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:00 pm
Cleon wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:00 am
Really, what is the capital of Israel - Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. Who get's the final say?
Young grasshoppah,

Tel Aviv is the physical capital of the Nation State of Israel.

Jerusalem is the heart capital of the all that is spiritual, scriptural, cross religiosity of many idiocies, wobble headed ideas centuries old and twice as long formulating,

Did I get everyone?

I'd just like to have a few small stones from the old sections. But, I'm thinking that might be fairly illegal. So. If I ever find myself at Tel Aviv airport with a few hours to kill, I'll take the bus to Golgotha. An uncle who has spend a lot of time in Jerusalem, told me it's just a short but steep walk from the bus stop.

I wonder if I would be able to tune out the surrounding sounds and distractions to try to take in where I was kneeling.

I wonder how long it would take.

Is there that quiet?
Um, those guys will sell you anything, Jake. They're known for it.

I've always wanted to go there, too. Gethsemene is on my bucket list.
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