Lead us not into temptation

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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by FredS » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:46 pm

I don't understand where you're going with this deal tuttle.You sort of said you don't care what the Pope does, but you sort of say you're worried he's going to change the Prayer in to something it's not. (BTW - He's not changing anything.) There are already all sorts of variations that are prayed around the world and even around our towns.

'Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us'
or
'Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us'
or
'Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors'

The last one doesn't have enough hissiness for my tastes, but that's just me.

I wonder if your larger point is to discuss whether or not God will/would literally lead us in to temptation and we must petition Him not to do so.?
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by hugodrax » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:30 pm

FredS wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:46 pm
I don't understand where you're going with this deal tuttle.You sort of said you don't care what the Pope does, but you sort of say you're worried he's going to change the Prayer in to something it's not. (BTW - He's not changing anything.) There are already all sorts of variations that are prayed around the world and even around our towns.

'Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us'
or
'Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us'
or
'Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors'

The last one doesn't have enough hissiness for my tastes, but that's just me.

I wonder if your larger point is to discuss whether or not God will/would literally lead us in to temptation and we must petition Him not to do so.?
Some of us say it in Latin, you know, and I'd take my oath Sid says it in Greek.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Jocose » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:18 pm

I think the pope has this one wrong. The Greek term slips my feeble and weak mind but from what I've heard (Orthodox standpoint) is that it's a style of writing that is almost like a demand, not asking that we're not lead into temptation but a demand that we're not led into temptation. It made sense when I heard this many months ago during an Orthodox bible study on this prayer.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Del » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:09 pm

Eye of the Tiber nails it, again:

Pope: “Harry Potter And The Sorcerer’s Stone Is Also Badly Translated”
Last month, publishers in France agreed to switch from “Sorcerer” to “Philosopher.” The pope said he was impressed with the new wording.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Skip » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:45 am

Del wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:09 pm
Eye of the Tiber nails it, again:

Pope: “Harry Potter And The Sorcerer’s Stone Is Also Badly Translated”
Last month, publishers in France agreed to switch from “Sorcerer” to “Philosopher.” The pope said he was impressed with the new wording.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Winton » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:24 am

Language changes over time. It is necessary to update the text, in order to maintain the original meaning. If this does not happen, then eventually the text loses it's meaning.

While I prepare for teaching an adult Bible class, I use multiple commentaries. There is one that is very helpful in explaining the application of the passage to our everyday life. But at regular intervals, the book becomes comparatively incomprehensible. That is when the author is quoting the passage in KJV. (King James Version)

FYI, it is really interesting to speak about Bible translation, at a KJV only church. I heard one pastor say, "The Bible needs to be translated into every language. But only once!"

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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by FredS » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:03 am

Skip wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:45 am
Del wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:09 pm
Eye of the Tiber nails it, again:

Pope: “Harry Potter And The Sorcerer’s Stone Is Also Badly Translated”
Last month, publishers in France agreed to switch from “Sorcerer” to “Philosopher.” The pope said he was impressed with the new wording.
I love EOTT. Add the Babylon Bee and life is good.
Add Coffee With Jesus and life is damn near perfect.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Jester » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:23 am

Jocose wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:18 pm
I think the pope has this one wrong. The Greek term slips my feeble and weak mind but from what I've heard (Orthodox standpoint) is that it's a style of writing that is almost like a demand, not asking that we're not lead into temptation but a demand that we're not led into temptation. It made sense when I heard this many months ago during an Orthodox bible study on this prayer.
This. This maybe what Tuttle is missing from his explanation. I don't know if jocose would agree with me on this so I'm not saying this is his view or even Tuttles. Everyone's argument against this is, "It wouldn't be in Gods nature to lead us into temptation but rather He leads us away from it." If we can petition or demand that we are led away from temptation it still gives the option for God NOT to lead us away from temptation. In fact if it was in Gods nature to lead away from temptation we would never be tempted.
We see in the Gospels that the Spirit leads Christ into the wilderness to be tested. Of course Satan is the one who tempted Christ when he got there but he was led there by God to be tempted. God leads us into various trials to test our faith and to see if it is genuine. I would be careful to say that it is not in Gods nature to lead us into temptation but rather it is in Gods to deliver us out.
1 Corinthians 10:13
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (KJV)
So we see God controls the amount of temptation the accuser is able to put on us and we also see that he makes a way of escape. This is quite an incredible test. Like a king standing on the side line watching his prince in combat, waving off his royal guards not to interfere.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by tuttle » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:21 am

FredS wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:46 pm
I don't understand where you're going with this deal tuttle.You sort of said you don't care what the Pope does, but you sort of say you're worried he's going to change the Prayer in to something it's not. (BTW - He's not changing anything.) There are already all sorts of variations that are prayed around the world and even around our towns.

'Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us'
or
'Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us'
or
'Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors'

The last one doesn't have enough hissiness for my tastes, but that's just me.

I wonder if your larger point is to discuss whether or not God will/would literally lead us in to temptation and we must petition Him not to do so.?
I'm not worried that he's going to change the prayer into something it's not. I don't care if he does or doesn't (and I don't think that's the issue anyway), but I'm just pointing out that it is a troubling statement, especially of someone of his...let's say official caliber. It's an argument made by both the uber-liberals and the ultra-fundamentalists, wanting to change the literal text and meaning in order to appease someone's theology. Again, I happen to agree with the Pope that God is our loving father and the phrasing taken the wrong way can bring confusion, but that's not the way we get people over that particular hump. We ought to teach people what it means, not change it to what we think it should say.

Your examples are fine regarding translation leeway. Trespasses, debts, sins. Those can be encompassed. But the Pope's recommendation isn't encompassed in the translation unless backflips are involved.

And yeah, I was hoping that this could be a two pronged thread; talking about the Pope's statements and also diving into the theological implications of both the mistranslation and the actual translation.
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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by Del » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:39 am

Jester wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:23 am
Jocose wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:18 pm
I think the pope has this one wrong. The Greek term slips my feeble and weak mind but from what I've heard (Orthodox standpoint) is that it's a style of writing that is almost like a demand, not asking that we're not lead into temptation but a demand that we're not led into temptation. It made sense when I heard this many months ago during an Orthodox bible study on this prayer.
This. This maybe what Tuttle is missing from his explanation. I don't know if jocose would agree with me on this so I'm not saying this is his view or even Tuttles. Everyone's argument against this is, "It wouldn't be in Gods nature to lead us into temptation but rather He leads us away from it." If we can petition or demand that we are led away from temptation it still gives the option for God NOT to lead us away from temptation. In fact if it was in Gods nature to lead away from temptation we would never be tempted.
We see in the Gospels that the Spirit leads Christ into the wilderness to be tested. Of course Satan is the one who tempted Christ when he got there but he was led there by God to be tempted. God leads us into various trials to test our faith and to see if it is genuine. I would be careful to say that it is not in Gods nature to lead us into temptation but rather it is in Gods to deliver us out.
1 Corinthians 10:13
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (KJV)
So we see God controls the amount of temptation the accuser is able to put on us and we also see that he makes a way of escape. This is quite an incredible test. Like a king standing on the side line watching his prince in combat, waving off his royal guards not to interfere.
Several of the petitions in the Lord's Prayer are like this. For example, "May Your Kingdom come! May your will be done!"

These should sound silly to us who live in the Kingdom.
- No one could stop God's Kingdom from being established.
- No one could stop God's will from being done.

These petitions are we, begging God to do what God wants to do! Our God is so humble, and so gentle, that He lets us screw ourselves up as much as we want. He waits for us to ask Him to do the good that He wants for us. So Jesus taught us to ask for these things.

We still pray for these things.
- God's Church/Kingdom is not fulfilled, not yet.
- God's will is not done on earth, not yet.
- We are still lead into temptation.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: Lead us not into temptation

Post by JohnnyMcPiperson » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:21 am

hugodrax wrote:
infidel wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:08 pm
To me this phrase sounds a bit archaic. I can tell what it means but it "sounds" off to my ears, and I'm not surprised at all that it is confusing to some.

It's not precisely clear to an average infidel whether the "not" negates the "Lead us" or the "into".

"Lead us not" i.e. requesting God to not lead us somewhere he normally might (which contradicts God's nature), vs "not into" i.e. "away from" i.e. requesting God's assistance in overcoming our own tendencies (which accords with God's nature).

"Lead us away from temptation", in my worthless opinion, would be a better way to phrase it.
We could always throw in the secret prayer of most of us: "punish me not for the times I have fallen, but rather give me a Mercedes, a lot of dough, and 100,000 Instagram followers."
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