Mary Alone

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:42 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:13 am
tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:33 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:19 am
tuttle wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:01 pm
Hmmm...what if I threw a wrench into this by saying that Mary's 'yes' was ordained from the foundation of the world? …
And with that, we're back full-circle: Eternal Decrees.

And is way of framing the issue essentially different than "submission"?

Cuz I'm not seein' it. Unfreedom is unfreedom.
Is there something wrong with eternal decrees? …

[…]
(see bolded)
Yeah...but you nixed all the reasons I gave for asking that question. Eternal decrees are found throughout the entirety of the Scriptures (This pattern is found all over: 1. God decrees > 2. Man responds in belief/unbelief > 3. God works all things for His glory and the good of his people using both the faithful and sinful reactions of humanity > 4. His word does not return void, but accomplishes that which He pleases)

I even provided an out so as not to tie Mary specifically up with any unfreedom! I thought I rode that fence quite well :lol:

[coloration added by Wos]
The problem is that you color (or at the very least, strongly seem to color) this in the form of a logical sequence: "If 1, then 2; if 2 then 3; yada yada …"

Instead of "God decrees > Man responds in belief/unbelief", what we're looking for (we, Catholics) is something more along the lines of this …

"God decrees <---> Man responds in belief/unbelief"




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Re: Mary Alone

Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:22 am

If the CPS Theology Forum ain't the place for theological sparring, I don't know what is. The mods have their pirate flags. Let them use them if things get out of hand.

Otherwise, change the name to Congenial Pipe Smokers and market to a different crowd.

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:33 am

wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:42 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:13 am
tuttle wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:33 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:19 am
tuttle wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:01 pm
Hmmm...what if I threw a wrench into this by saying that Mary's 'yes' was ordained from the foundation of the world? …
And with that, we're back full-circle: Eternal Decrees.

And is way of framing the issue essentially different than "submission"?

Cuz I'm not seein' it. Unfreedom is unfreedom.
Is there something wrong with eternal decrees? …

[…]
(see bolded)
Yeah...but you nixed all the reasons I gave for asking that question. Eternal decrees are found throughout the entirety of the Scriptures (This pattern is found all over: 1. God decrees > 2. Man responds in belief/unbelief > 3. God works all things for His glory and the good of his people using both the faithful and sinful reactions of humanity > 4. His word does not return void, but accomplishes that which He pleases)

I even provided an out so as not to tie Mary specifically up with any unfreedom! I thought I rode that fence quite well :lol:

[coloration added by Wos]
The problem is that you color (or at the very least, strongly seem to color) this in the form of a logical sequence: "If 1, then 2; if 2 then 3; yada yada …"

Instead of "God decrees > Man responds in belief/unbelief", what we're looking for (we, Catholics) is something more along the lines of this …

"God decrees <---> Man responds in belief/unbelief"
I think I know what you're saying...but I might need you to expand upon that.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by DepartedLight » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:02 am

UncleBob wrote:
Which raises this question: Is CPS a place that should facilitate theological "sparing"?
Absolutely not.

These kinds of sparing matches are what drove me away from pursuing, finalizing, and formalizing my Theology degree.

Y'all can keep the discussions; I'll make someone that is in need some lasagna.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:02 pm

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:33 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:42 am

Yeah...but you nixed all the reasons I gave for asking that question. Eternal decrees are found throughout the entirety of the Scriptures (This pattern is found all over: 1. God decrees > 2. Man responds in belief/unbelief > 3. God works all things for His glory and the good of his people using both the faithful and sinful reactions of humanity > 4. His word does not return void, but accomplishes that which He pleases)

I even provided an out so as not to tie Mary specifically up with any unfreedom! I thought I rode that fence quite well :lol:

[coloration added by Wos]
The problem is that you color (or at the very least, strongly seem to color) this in the form of a logical sequence: "If 1, then 2; if 2 then 3; yada yada …"

Instead of "God decrees > Man responds in belief/unbelief", what we're looking for (we, Catholics) is something more along the lines of this …

"God decrees <---> Man responds in belief/unbelief"
I think I know what you're saying...but I might need you to expand upon that.
IOW, there is simply no logical priority between God's Sovereignty and Man's Freedom. Instead, they are mutually conditioned. As I said before, a "Both/And".

Dunno how much clearer I can make it.

Any attempt to force a choice ("haeresis" = "to choose"; "heresy") between the two — as one being more important, prior or primary — is to be rejected as incompatible with Catholicity.




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Re: Mary Alone

Post by FredS » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:08 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:29 am
Which raises this question: Is CPS a place that should facilitate theological "sparing"?

Some other questions:
  • Where are the moderate Christian members?
    What happened to the liberal Christian members who used to be here?
    Why do most who quit CPS, quit?
By moderate, you mean coco and JrEgg? Either they do enough of this crap in their day jobs that they don't want to mess with it here, or they think it's mostly useless. Somehow, Joshoowa can get down in the mud and still come out clean. I admire him for that and many other reasons.
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:22 am
If the CPS Theology Forum ain't the place for theological sparring, I don't know what is. The mods have their pirate flags. Let them use them if things get out of hand.

Otherwise, change the name to Congenial Pipe Smokers and market to a different crowd.
I think you've misunderstood my intent. This is the perfect place for theological sparring. But let's not get offended by what others write. Jester, in particular, was gobsmacked about some of the things Del wrote and he thought Wos implied that God or the Angel was a sex offender. Jester has since backed out of the discussion (I think) but it was he who I was trying to covertly mention as being offended.

Introducing your neighbor to Jesus Christ and inviting him to church has eternal benefits. Arguing about Mary? Mmmm, prolly not.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:25 pm

wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:02 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:33 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:42 am

Yeah...but you nixed all the reasons I gave for asking that question. Eternal decrees are found throughout the entirety of the Scriptures (This pattern is found all over: 1. God decrees > 2. Man responds in belief/unbelief > 3. God works all things for His glory and the good of his people using both the faithful and sinful reactions of humanity > 4. His word does not return void, but accomplishes that which He pleases)

I even provided an out so as not to tie Mary specifically up with any unfreedom! I thought I rode that fence quite well :lol:

[coloration added by Wos]
The problem is that you color (or at the very least, strongly seem to color) this in the form of a logical sequence: "If 1, then 2; if 2 then 3; yada yada …"

Instead of "God decrees > Man responds in belief/unbelief", what we're looking for (we, Catholics) is something more along the lines of this …

"God decrees <---> Man responds in belief/unbelief"
I think I know what you're saying...but I might need you to expand upon that.
IOW, there is simply no logical priority between God's Sovereignty and Man's Freedom. Instead, they are mutually conditioned. As I said before, a "Both/And".

Dunno how much clearer I can make it.

Any attempt to force a choice ("haeresis" = "to choose"; "heresy") between the two — as one being more important, prior or primary — is to be rejected as incompatible with Catholicity.
I could be missing something...but I think it's pretty clear from Scripture that the logical priority resides with God. One could argue that that is the whole point of Job. And I would even say that you can find room to say that his sovereignty doesn't equal unfreedom. God's sovereignty is such that his will is accomplished among believers and unbelievers, willing participants and active rebels. The Scriptures are replete with it. If it is true that with God nothing is impossible then there has to be a logical priority between God's will and Man's will, when it comes to eternal decrees. God's will is gonna happen regardless. That doesn't mean He has to stomp out freedom in the process. I'm just saying there's room for freedom. I'm not going to jump on the Catholic understanding on that though because I feel like there are some mega pit falls that ought to be avoided, especially if the Catholic interpretation says (or leaves open the door) that Man's freedom has the ability to halt/trump/stop that which God has ordained to pass.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:27 pm

tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:25 pm
wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:02 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:33 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:42 am

Yeah...but you nixed all the reasons I gave for asking that question. Eternal decrees are found throughout the entirety of the Scriptures (This pattern is found all over: 1. God decrees > 2. Man responds in belief/unbelief > 3. God works all things for His glory and the good of his people using both the faithful and sinful reactions of humanity > 4. His word does not return void, but accomplishes that which He pleases)

I even provided an out so as not to tie Mary specifically up with any unfreedom! I thought I rode that fence quite well :lol:

[coloration added by Wos]
The problem is that you color (or at the very least, strongly seem to color) this in the form of a logical sequence: "If 1, then 2; if 2 then 3; yada yada …"

Instead of "God decrees > Man responds in belief/unbelief", what we're looking for (we, Catholics) is something more along the lines of this …

"God decrees <---> Man responds in belief/unbelief"
I think I know what you're saying...but I might need you to expand upon that.
IOW, there is simply no logical priority between God's Sovereignty and Man's Freedom. Instead, they are mutually conditioned. As I said before, a "Both/And".

Dunno how much clearer I can make it.

Any attempt to force a choice ("haeresis" = "to choose"; "heresy") between the two — as one being more important, prior or primary — is to be rejected as incompatible with Catholicity.
I could be missing something...but I think it's pretty clear from Scripture that the logical priority resides with God. One could argue that that is the whole point of Job. And I would even say that you can find room to say that his sovereignty doesn't equal unfreedom. God's sovereignty is such that his will is accomplished among believers and unbelievers, willing participants and active rebels. The Scriptures are replete with it. If it is true that with God nothing is impossible then there has to be a logical priority between God's will and Man's will, when it comes to eternal decrees. God's will is gonna happen regardless. That doesn't mean He has to stomp out freedom in the process. I'm just saying there's room for freedom. I'm not going to jump on the Catholic understanding on that though because I feel like there are some mega pit falls that ought to be avoided, especially if the Catholic interpretation says (or leaves open the door) that Man's freedom has the ability to halt/trump/stop that which God has ordained to pass.
Depends on how you define some terms, I think.

Sin, by definition, is our intentional effort to frustrate God's plan for us. Suffering is our consequence. God does not desire the sin or the suffering... but He allows it. He doesn't save us until we ask for it.

In Israel, just before the time of Christ, there was a great fervor of Messianic desire. The Pharisees had re-established the idea of holiness into the culture (for example, there were great multitudes of people in Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover). When the People of Israel were finally ready to call upon God and ask for their Savior, God answered our plea.... first, by preparing Mary to accept the Savior for the world.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by FredS » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:38 pm

tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:25 pm
. . . If it is true that with God nothing is impossible then there has to be a logical priority between God's will and Man's will, when it comes to eternal decrees. God's will is gonna happen regardless. That doesn't mean He has to stomp out freedom in the process. I'm just saying there's room for freedom. I'm not going to jump on the Catholic understanding on that though because I feel like there are some mega pit falls that ought to be avoided, especially if the Catholic interpretation says (or leaves open the door) that Man's freedom has the ability to halt/trump/stop that which God has ordained to pass.
This is where black and white dogma runs head on in to real life in our brokenness. If it's true that He knitted every one of us in our mothers womb (and I think it is) then it follows that He would choose to see us born, in whatever state He chooses, or even to take us home before our birth. The choice of life and death surely lies with God. But man certainly (mis)uses his freedom to thwart the lives of millions of people, born and unborn. For sure He can bring good from our mess, but to think man can't foul the plan is to not think it through.

Now, perhaps it's as Del says in that we're not defining terms in the same ways. Perhaps you see the conception of a child as God's 'desire or will' and not as His 'order'? Perhaps God allows our freedom to thwart His 'desire' but not His 'ordination'?
Last edited by FredS on Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:42 pm

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:25 pm
… If it is true that with God nothing is impossible then there has to be a logical priority between God's will and Man's will, when it comes to eternal decrees. …
If nothing is impossible with God, then what about the possibility that God could create a world in which Man's Freedom would not be logically subordinated to eternal decrees?




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Re: Mary Alone

Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:01 pm

FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:08 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:29 am
Which raises this question: Is CPS a place that should facilitate theological "sparing"?

Some other questions:
  • Where are the moderate Christian members?
    What happened to the liberal Christian members who used to be here?
    Why do most who quit CPS, quit?
By moderate, you mean coco and JrEgg? Either they do enough of this crap in their day jobs that they don't want to mess with it here, or they think it's mostly useless. Somehow, Joshoowa can get down in the mud and still come out clean. I admire him for that and many other reasons.
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:22 am
If the CPS Theology Forum ain't the place for theological sparring, I don't know what is. The mods have their pirate flags. Let them use them if things get out of hand.

Otherwise, change the name to Congenial Pipe Smokers and market to a different crowd.
I think you've misunderstood my intent. This is the perfect place for theological sparring. But let's not get offended by what others write. Jester, in particular, was gobsmacked about some of the things Del wrote and he thought Wos implied that God or the Angel was a sex offender. Jester has since backed out of the discussion (I think) but it was he who I was trying to covertly mention as being offended.

Introducing your neighbor to Jesus Christ and inviting him to church has eternal benefits. Arguing about Mary? Mmmm, prolly not.
I wasn't responding to you, FFredSS.

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by FredS » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:01 pm
I wasn't responding to you, FFredSS.
So we're OK?
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:52 pm

FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:01 pm
I wasn't responding to you, FFredSS.
So we're OK?
No chance at that, PROTTIE.

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:08 pm

FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:38 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:25 pm
. . . If it is true that with God nothing is impossible then there has to be a logical priority between God's will and Man's will, when it comes to eternal decrees. God's will is gonna happen regardless. That doesn't mean He has to stomp out freedom in the process. I'm just saying there's room for freedom. I'm not going to jump on the Catholic understanding on that though because I feel like there are some mega pit falls that ought to be avoided, especially if the Catholic interpretation says (or leaves open the door) that Man's freedom has the ability to halt/trump/stop that which God has ordained to pass.
This is where black and white dogma runs head on in to real life in our brokenness. If it's true that He knitted every one of us in our mothers womb (and I think it is) then it follows that He would choose to see us born, in whatever state He chooses, or even to take us home before our birth. The choice of life and death surely lies with God. But man certainly (mis)uses his freedom to thwart the lives of millions of people, born and unborn. For sure He can bring good from our mess, but to think man can't foul the plan is to not think it through.

Now, perhaps it's as Del says in that we're not defining terms in the same ways. Perhaps you see the conception of a child as God's 'desire or will' and not as His 'order'? Perhaps God allows our freedom to thwart His 'desire' but not His 'ordination'?
Yeah, I'm talking about 'eternal decrees'. The kind of thing we read about in the bible. Christ, being crucified before the foundation of the world, kind of thing. The angel proclaiming to Mary that she'd been chosen to carry the Christ in her womb, kind of thing.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:18 pm

wosbald wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:42 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:25 pm
… If it is true that with God nothing is impossible then there has to be a logical priority between God's will and Man's will, when it comes to eternal decrees. …
If nothing is impossible with God, then what about the possibility that God could create a world in which Man's Freedom would not be logically subordinated to eternal decrees?
I like the way you think (you clever bastard :lol: )

I guess the possibility is there, I grant you.

Perhaps the safest thing we can say with absolute surety, is that whatever He sets out to do, he will succeed:

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven
and do not return there but water the earth,
making it bring forth and sprout,
giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."

That's basically what I've been trying to hang my hat on.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by FredS » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:37 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:52 pm
FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:01 pm
I wasn't responding to you, FFredSS.
So we're OK?
No chance at that, PROTTIE.
You know I won't be able to sleep tonight with this thing between us. I don't like it when we argue.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:48 pm

FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:37 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:52 pm
FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:01 pm
I wasn't responding to you, FFredSS.
So we're OK?
No chance at that, PROTTIE.
You know I won't be able to sleep tonight with this thing between us. I don't like it when we argue.
OK, I forgive you. Now turn out the hall light before you lie down.

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Re: Mary Alone

Post by John-Boy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:39 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:48 pm
FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:37 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:52 pm
FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:18 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:01 pm
I wasn't responding to you, FFredSS.
So we're OK?
No chance at that, PROTTIE.
You know I won't be able to sleep tonight with this thing between us. I don't like it when we argue.
OK, I forgive you. Now turn out the hall light before you lie down.
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Jester » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:38 am

FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:08 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:29 am
Which raises this question: Is CPS a place that should facilitate theological "sparing"?

Some other questions:
  • Where are the moderate Christian members?
    What happened to the liberal Christian members who used to be here?
    Why do most who quit CPS, quit?
By moderate, you mean coco and JrEgg? Either they do enough of this crap in their day jobs that they don't want to mess with it here, or they think it's mostly useless. Somehow, Joshoowa can get down in the mud and still come out clean. I admire him for that and many other reasons.
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:22 am
If the CPS Theology Forum ain't the place for theological sparring, I don't know what is. The mods have their pirate flags. Let them use them if things get out of hand.

Otherwise, change the name to Congenial Pipe Smokers and market to a different crowd.
I think you've misunderstood my intent. This is the perfect place for theological sparring. But let's not get offended by what others write. Jester, in particular, was gobsmacked about some of the things Del wrote and he thought Wos implied that God or the Angel was a sex offender. Jester has since backed out of the discussion (I think) but it was he who I was trying to covertly mention as being offended.

Introducing your neighbor to Jesus Christ and inviting him to church has eternal benefits. Arguing about Mary? Mmmm, prolly not.
I was a little gobsmacked to learn that Mary is the mediator between Christ and Del. I don't know a lot on Catholic teachings but felt it was my place to be gobsmacked. I mean he did name the thread Mary Alone. Tuttle on the other hand has been here longer and I noticed he wasn't gobsmacked, best to sit back and read. I was not offended but rather stepped back with my lack of Catholic understanding.
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Del
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Re: Mary Alone

Post by Del » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:15 am

Jester wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:38 am
FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:08 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:29 am
Which raises this question: Is CPS a place that should facilitate theological "sparing"?

Some other questions:
  • Where are the moderate Christian members?
    What happened to the liberal Christian members who used to be here?
    Why do most who quit CPS, quit?
By moderate, you mean coco and JrEgg? Either they do enough of this crap in their day jobs that they don't want to mess with it here, or they think it's mostly useless. Somehow, Joshoowa can get down in the mud and still come out clean. I admire him for that and many other reasons.
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:22 am
If the CPS Theology Forum ain't the place for theological sparring, I don't know what is. The mods have their pirate flags. Let them use them if things get out of hand.

Otherwise, change the name to Congenial Pipe Smokers and market to a different crowd.
I think you've misunderstood my intent. This is the perfect place for theological sparring. But let's not get offended by what others write. Jester, in particular, was gobsmacked about some of the things Del wrote and he thought Wos implied that God or the Angel was a sex offender. Jester has since backed out of the discussion (I think) but it was he who I was trying to covertly mention as being offended.

Introducing your neighbor to Jesus Christ and inviting him to church has eternal benefits. Arguing about Mary? Mmmm, prolly not.
I was a little gobsmacked to learn that Mary is the mediator between Christ and Del. I don't know a lot on Catholic teachings but felt it was my place to be gobsmacked. I mean he did name the thread Mary Alone. Tuttle on the other hand has been here longer and I noticed he wasn't gobsmacked, best to sit back and read. I was not offended but rather stepped back with my lack of Catholic understanding.
The proper term is "Mediatrix." (More on that later.)

Christ is the only mediator between God and Man, as we all know.

To be fair and honest.... the old-timers remember the day when Del was equally gobsmacked to discover that living, breathing believers in Calvinism were still out walking around. I thought that theology was extinct.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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