We did communion wrong today.

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Sir Moose » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:43 pm

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:54 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:29 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:32 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:49 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:41 am
Growing up baptist, it's been a growing desire of mine to see the Lord's Table renewed in the midst of so many anemic/barren congregations/denominations.

Renew the Table
It's not really a table. It's an Altar.

It's not really a meal. It's a Sacrifice ...[relocated snippet]...

It's [NOT] merely a remembrance. It is being present at Christ's Crucifixion and the Resurrection.
Praise God for the Reformation, then. 500 years and still going, not for nuthin.
Del wrote:It's not just a communion. It's a Thanksgiving, for we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb.

...

And when we are called to the Altar Table to receive Jesus, we really do.
Amen.
I meant "it's NOT merely a remembrance." Had to correct my post.
Well then Amen to that as well!
I have always appreciated how the Presbyterians (and some other Calvinists of strict observance) still understand that there are such a thing as "Sacraments."
The word "Sacraments" means slightly different things in different denominations and traditions. Some who hold to Sacraments are not holding to the same thing that you are. I realize that you know this, but it still seems like it needed to be mentioned alongside your last statement.
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:19 am

Sir Moose wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:43 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:54 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:29 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:32 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:49 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:41 am
Growing up baptist, it's been a growing desire of mine to see the Lord's Table renewed in the midst of so many anemic/barren congregations/denominations.

Renew the Table
It's not really a table. It's an Altar.

It's not really a meal. It's a Sacrifice ...[relocated snippet]...

It's [NOT] merely a remembrance. It is being present at Christ's Crucifixion and the Resurrection.
Praise God for the Reformation, then. 500 years and still going, not for nuthin.
Del wrote:It's not just a communion. It's a Thanksgiving, for we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb.

...

And when we are called to the Altar Table to receive Jesus, we really do.
Amen.
I meant "it's NOT merely a remembrance." Had to correct my post.
Well then Amen to that as well!
I have always appreciated how the Presbyterians (and some other Calvinists of strict observance) still understand that there are such a thing as "Sacraments."
The word "Sacraments" means slightly different things in different denominations and traditions. Some who hold to Sacraments are not holding to the same thing that you are. I realize that you know this, but it still seems like it needed to be mentioned alongside your last statement.
Catholics explain the Sacraments this way: These are symbols which are also the reality of what they represent.
- The water of baptism represents the washing away of sins, and the sins are really washed away.
- The bread and wine represent the body and blood of Christ, and they are really the Body and Blood of Christ.
- They laying on of hands represents the transmission of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit really comes.
- The anointing with oil represents the healing of wounds, and real healing happens (always spiritual healing, often physical, and sometimes miraculous)

And so on. Every sacrament has a symbol which represents the reality.

One of the great spiritual tragedies of the Reformation was this diminished faith, in which the sacraments were demoted to mere symbols. So many Christians no longer had eyes to see or ears to hear the reality revealed by the symbols.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Skip » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am

Del wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:19 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:43 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:54 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:29 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:32 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:49 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:41 am
Growing up baptist, it's been a growing desire of mine to see the Lord's Table renewed in the midst of so many anemic/barren congregations/denominations.

Renew the Table
It's not really a table. It's an Altar.

It's not really a meal. It's a Sacrifice ...[relocated snippet]...

It's [NOT] merely a remembrance. It is being present at Christ's Crucifixion and the Resurrection.
Praise God for the Reformation, then. 500 years and still going, not for nuthin.
Del wrote:It's not just a communion. It's a Thanksgiving, for we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb.

...

And when we are called to the Altar Table to receive Jesus, we really do.
Amen.
I meant "it's NOT merely a remembrance." Had to correct my post.
Well then Amen to that as well!
I have always appreciated how the Presbyterians (and some other Calvinists of strict observance) still understand that there are such a thing as "Sacraments."
The word "Sacraments" means slightly different things in different denominations and traditions. Some who hold to Sacraments are not holding to the same thing that you are. I realize that you know this, but it still seems like it needed to be mentioned alongside your last statement.
Catholics explain the Sacraments this way: These are symbols which are also the reality of what they represent.
- The water of baptism represents the washing away of sins, and the sins are really washed away.
- The bread and wine represent the body and blood of Christ, and they are really the Body and Blood of Christ.
- They laying on of hands represents the transmission of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit really comes.
- The anointing with oil represents the healing of wounds, and real healing happens (always spiritual healing, often physical, and sometimes miraculous)

And so on. Every sacrament has a symbol which represents the reality.

One of the great spiritual tragedies of the Reformation was this diminished faith, in which the sacraments were demoted to mere symbols. So many Christians no longer had eyes to see or ears to hear the reality revealed by the symbols.
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! THIS is why I harp on you to seek first to understand, then to be understood. You feel that you've got the understanding, so you just skip to the point of lecturing. In Zen, there's the concept of an empty cup. One can't pour anything into a cup unless it is first emptied. Your cup is full. Please, Del, empty your cup. You've been asked by others to simply consider adding words like "I've been made to understand..." or "I was taught..." or "It seems to me..." just to make it appear like you're open to enlightenment. If you can't empty that cup, at least pour a little out.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:23 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:19 am
One of the great spiritual tragedies of the Reformation was this diminished faith, in which the sacraments were demoted to mere symbols. So many Christians no longer had eyes to see or ears to hear the reality revealed by the symbols.
I'm going to agree with you and then disagree with you.

Consentus
The mere symbolism that has spread throughout Protestantism is a great spiritual tragedy. And I will even credit you by looking to the Reformation where we at least get the seed of that idea implanted (although I don't think we truly see it come to fruit until a couple centuries later).

Your last sentence is astounding, both in sadness and because it was a reality. But here's where we turn a corner.


Dissentio
Christians no longer had eyes to see or ears to hear the reality revealed by the symbols, I contend, because of the major abuses/innovations that crept in the late medieval Roman church. To whit: it had gotten to the point where parishioners did not even partake of the bread and wine. It was only on Easter or some such holy day, and only after weeks of fasting and preparing. And even then, they might only receive the bread. It was (and may be still, I don't know) believed to be enough that they could just gaze on the host elevated.

Example: (Elevation of the Eucharist, detail from the Della Rovere Missal Italy, Rome, ca. 1485–90)

Image
(Note the parishioners who appear to be on tiptoe just to have a glimpse of the bread and wine)

Imagine the people living in the time of the Reformation, many of whom had not, but for a handful of times in their lives, had partaken of the bread, and perhaps never once partaken of the cup. And one day they hear about a movement from within the Church that is not only preaching against such a practice, but is also holding services in their own language and is offering to them both the bread and the wine. Seriously imagine that for a moment. Is that the actions of a movement looking to diminish the symbols? Again, you may not believe it, but most of the Reformers sought to restore the symbols. They would give the people the bread and tell them (in their own language) "This is the Body of Christ broken for you. This is the Blood of Christ poured out for you."

The sad part is, where we agree, that the pendulum eventually swung the other way. Now we have protestants who only partake (maybe) 4 times a year, elements that are shadows of the real thing. But at the time, the Reformers weren't taring down the supper (for instance) and seeking to diminish it. It was seeking to rightfully restore it to its true meaning and practice. They were reacting to an abuse (both practice and transubstantiation) and some (Zwingli in particular) overreacted. I don't want to open up the ins and outs of transubstantiation here, but I bring it up to point out that the reaction and the attempt at restoration from the Reformers would never have come about without something abused to react against. It is unfortunate that some Reformers threw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:46 pm

Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:19 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:43 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:54 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:29 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:32 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:49 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:41 am
Growing up baptist, it's been a growing desire of mine to see the Lord's Table renewed in the midst of so many anemic/barren congregations/denominations.

Renew the Table
It's not really a table. It's an Altar.

It's not really a meal. It's a Sacrifice ...[relocated snippet]...

It's [NOT] merely a remembrance. It is being present at Christ's Crucifixion and the Resurrection.
Praise God for the Reformation, then. 500 years and still going, not for nuthin.
Del wrote:It's not just a communion. It's a Thanksgiving, for we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb.

...

And when we are called to the Altar Table to receive Jesus, we really do.
Amen.
I meant "it's NOT merely a remembrance." Had to correct my post.
Well then Amen to that as well!
I have always appreciated how the Presbyterians (and some other Calvinists of strict observance) still understand that there are such a thing as "Sacraments."
The word "Sacraments" means slightly different things in different denominations and traditions. Some who hold to Sacraments are not holding to the same thing that you are. I realize that you know this, but it still seems like it needed to be mentioned alongside your last statement.
Catholics explain the Sacraments this way: These are symbols which are also the reality of what they represent.
- The water of baptism represents the washing away of sins, and the sins are really washed away.
- The bread and wine represent the body and blood of Christ, and they are really the Body and Blood of Christ.
- They laying on of hands represents the transmission of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit really comes.
- The anointing with oil represents the healing of wounds, and real healing happens (always spiritual healing, often physical, and sometimes miraculous)

And so on. Every sacrament has a symbol which represents the reality.

One of the great spiritual tragedies of the Reformation was this diminished faith, in which the sacraments were demoted to mere symbols. So many Christians no longer had eyes to see or ears to hear the reality revealed by the symbols.
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! THIS is why I harp on you to seek first to understand, then to be understood. You feel that you've got the understanding, so you just skip to the point of lecturing. In Zen, there's the concept of an empty cup. One can't pour anything into a cup unless it is first emptied. Your cup is full. Please, Del, empty your cup. You've been asked by others to simply consider adding words like "I've been made to understand..." or "I was taught..." or "It seems to me..." just to make it appear like you're open to enlightenment. If you can't empty that cup, at least pour a little out.
As many times as I have quoted Jesus's declaration of "THIS IS MY BODY," I have yet to encounter a reply anyone like, "Yes, we know! It really is His Body!"

If that is what you are saying here, then I am blown away!
==========================

I had a Scripture professor who was a former Methodist minister. He once hinted that, as a Methodist, he held some awareness of his ministry as "priest," and some sort of faith in the reality of the Lord's Supper. We pressed him to explain, but he kinda waived that away.

I had gone to a Methodist college when I was a young man. I got the impression that Methodism lets their people believe what they will, without much emphasis on explaining what is happening. This troubled me, because even then I knew that a Church has a duty to pass on the teachings of the Apostles. I was scandalized by a Church that abstains from teaching clearly.

(Most of the Methodist college students acted just like the Evangelical culture of central Missouri, and they were mostly interested in their praise & worship music. My Baptist friends were much more tuned to apologetics.... None of us were any good at explaining our faith; but we knew that we should be able to.)

The Catholic students were invited to a Methodist service. They included a communion service (I understood that this was not always done). The minister was very reverent during the communion prayers, indicating to me that he believed something significant was happening.

That was a new experience for me, and I was just taking it in. My only Protestant communion service... I've been to weddings, funerals, and some regular Pentecostal worship, but never again a communion service.

[It was years later that I studied Wesley a little bit, and learned about the Holiness movement. That made a lot more sense to me, and earned my respect. Most Methodists are much like our beloved jruegg.... not so much like Hillary Rodham Clinton.]
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Joshoowah » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:02 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:46 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:19 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:43 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:54 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:29 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:32 pm
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:49 am


It's not really a table. It's an Altar.

It's not really a meal. It's a Sacrifice ...[relocated snippet]...

It's [NOT] merely a remembrance. It is being present at Christ's Crucifixion and the Resurrection.
Praise God for the Reformation, then. 500 years and still going, not for nuthin.
Del wrote:It's not just a communion. It's a Thanksgiving, for we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb.

...

And when we are called to the Altar Table to receive Jesus, we really do.
Amen.
I meant "it's NOT merely a remembrance." Had to correct my post.
Well then Amen to that as well!
I have always appreciated how the Presbyterians (and some other Calvinists of strict observance) still understand that there are such a thing as "Sacraments."
The word "Sacraments" means slightly different things in different denominations and traditions. Some who hold to Sacraments are not holding to the same thing that you are. I realize that you know this, but it still seems like it needed to be mentioned alongside your last statement.
Catholics explain the Sacraments this way: These are symbols which are also the reality of what they represent.
- The water of baptism represents the washing away of sins, and the sins are really washed away.
- The bread and wine represent the body and blood of Christ, and they are really the Body and Blood of Christ.
- They laying on of hands represents the transmission of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit really comes.
- The anointing with oil represents the healing of wounds, and real healing happens (always spiritual healing, often physical, and sometimes miraculous)

And so on. Every sacrament has a symbol which represents the reality.

One of the great spiritual tragedies of the Reformation was this diminished faith, in which the sacraments were demoted to mere symbols. So many Christians no longer had eyes to see or ears to hear the reality revealed by the symbols.
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! THIS is why I harp on you to seek first to understand, then to be understood. You feel that you've got the understanding, so you just skip to the point of lecturing. In Zen, there's the concept of an empty cup. One can't pour anything into a cup unless it is first emptied. Your cup is full. Please, Del, empty your cup. You've been asked by others to simply consider adding words like "I've been made to understand..." or "I was taught..." or "It seems to me..." just to make it appear like you're open to enlightenment. If you can't empty that cup, at least pour a little out.
As many times as I have quoted Jesus's declaration of "THIS IS MY BODY," I have yet to encounter a reply anyone like, "Yes, we know! It really is His Body!"

If that is what you are saying here, then I am blown away!
==========================

I had a Scripture professor who was a former Methodist minister. He once hinted that, as a Methodist, he held some awareness of his ministry as "priest," and some sort of faith in the reality of the Lord's Supper. We pressed him to explain, but he kinda waived that away.

I had gone to a Methodist college when I was a young man. I got the impression that Methodism lets their people believe what they will, without much emphasis on explaining what is happening. This troubled me, because even then I knew that a Church has a duty to pass on the teachings of the Apostles. I was scandalized by a Church that abstains from teaching clearly.

(Most of the Methodist college students acted just like the Evangelical culture of central Missouri, and they were mostly interested in their praise & worship music. My Baptist friends were much more tuned to apologetics.... None of us were any good at explaining our faith; but we knew that we should be able to.)

The Catholic students were invited to a Methodist service. They included a communion service (I understood that this was not always done). The minister was very reverent during the communion prayers, indicating to me that he believed something significant was happening.

That was a new experience for me, and I was just taking it in. My only Protestant communion service... I've been to weddings, funerals, and some regular Pentecostal worship, but never again a communion service.

[It was years later that I studied Wesley a little bit, and learned about the Holiness movement. That made a lot more sense to me, and earned my respect. Most Methodists are much like our beloved jruegg.... not so much like Hillary Rodham Clinton.]
Wesleyans, indeed, sought to renew a great many things that had become stagnant within the church of their time, even going so far as to take Communion more than once a week in differing denomination lines, breaking down barriers interdenominationally and setting the stage for the outbreak of the Holiness Movement.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:59 pm

Joshoowah wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:02 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:46 pm
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:19 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:43 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:36 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:54 am
Del wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:29 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:32 pm


Praise God for the Reformation, then. 500 years and still going, not for nuthin.



Amen.
I meant "it's NOT merely a remembrance." Had to correct my post.
Well then Amen to that as well!
I have always appreciated how the Presbyterians (and some other Calvinists of strict observance) still understand that there are such a thing as "Sacraments."
The word "Sacraments" means slightly different things in different denominations and traditions. Some who hold to Sacraments are not holding to the same thing that you are. I realize that you know this, but it still seems like it needed to be mentioned alongside your last statement.
Catholics explain the Sacraments this way: These are symbols which are also the reality of what they represent.
- The water of baptism represents the washing away of sins, and the sins are really washed away.
- The bread and wine represent the body and blood of Christ, and they are really the Body and Blood of Christ.
- They laying on of hands represents the transmission of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit really comes.
- The anointing with oil represents the healing of wounds, and real healing happens (always spiritual healing, often physical, and sometimes miraculous)

And so on. Every sacrament has a symbol which represents the reality.

One of the great spiritual tragedies of the Reformation was this diminished faith, in which the sacraments were demoted to mere symbols. So many Christians no longer had eyes to see or ears to hear the reality revealed by the symbols.
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! THIS is why I harp on you to seek first to understand, then to be understood. You feel that you've got the understanding, so you just skip to the point of lecturing. In Zen, there's the concept of an empty cup. One can't pour anything into a cup unless it is first emptied. Your cup is full. Please, Del, empty your cup. You've been asked by others to simply consider adding words like "I've been made to understand..." or "I was taught..." or "It seems to me..." just to make it appear like you're open to enlightenment. If you can't empty that cup, at least pour a little out.
As many times as I have quoted Jesus's declaration of "THIS IS MY BODY," I have yet to encounter a reply anyone like, "Yes, we know! It really is His Body!"

If that is what you are saying here, then I am blown away!
==========================

I had a Scripture professor who was a former Methodist minister. He once hinted that, as a Methodist, he held some awareness of his ministry as "priest," and some sort of faith in the reality of the Lord's Supper. We pressed him to explain, but he kinda waived that away.

I had gone to a Methodist college when I was a young man. I got the impression that Methodism lets their people believe what they will, without much emphasis on explaining what is happening. This troubled me, because even then I knew that a Church has a duty to pass on the teachings of the Apostles. I was scandalized by a Church that abstains from teaching clearly.

(Most of the Methodist college students acted just like the Evangelical culture of central Missouri, and they were mostly interested in their praise & worship music. My Baptist friends were much more tuned to apologetics.... None of us were any good at explaining our faith; but we knew that we should be able to.)

The Catholic students were invited to a Methodist service. They included a communion service (I understood that this was not always done). The minister was very reverent during the communion prayers, indicating to me that he believed something significant was happening.

That was a new experience for me, and I was just taking it in. My only Protestant communion service... I've been to weddings, funerals, and some regular Pentecostal worship, but never again a communion service.

[It was years later that I studied Wesley a little bit, and learned about the Holiness movement. That made a lot more sense to me, and earned my respect. Most Methodists are much like our beloved jruegg.... not so much like Hillary Rodham Clinton.]
Wesleyans, indeed, sought to renew a great many things that had become stagnant within the church of their time, even going so far as to take Communion more than once a week in differing denomination lines, breaking down barriers interdenominationally and setting the stage for the outbreak of the Holiness Movement.
I was not surprised at all to discover that the great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the early 20th century happened at missions and tent revivals of the Holiness movement in America.

I have some sympathy now for the Methodist pastors who were reluctant to teach doctrine.

Chesterton has taught me that so much of revealed truth is paradoxical (our freedom v. God's sovereignty; the problem of evil v. God's goodness and mercy, etc.). We need Divine guidance in order to balance all of the truths perfectly. The Methodist pastors respect that Christian faith defies easy, logical, systematic explanations.... and the dangers that come from trying too hard. Some guy just might end up with a lot of Solas to simplify the math. So they teach Holiness.... just concentrate on living right, in a personal relationship with Christ. The rest will sort itself out in eternity.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by wosbald » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am

+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! …
As I've said before, "The way to understand Protestantism is through what it rejects, not through what it affirms." To know what is heresy, it's good enough to know what is formally disbelieved, or excluded, from Christian faith.

Granted, that may not be the only way to know Protestantism, but it is certainly one good way.




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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by UncleBob » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:46 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am
+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! …
As I've said before, "The way to understand Protestantism is through what it rejects, not through what it affirms." To know what is heresy, it's good enough to know what is formally disbelieved, or excluded, from Christian faith.

Granted, that may not be the only way to know Protestantism, but it is certainly one good way.
The problem is that to understand someone else, one needs to listen and add graciousness instead of talk. If all you can hear is, "BAD! BAD! BAD!" when they are talking you have no hope of understanding--just verification of a presupposition.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:30 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am
+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! …
As I've said before, "The way to understand Protestantism is through what it rejects, not through what it affirms." To know what is heresy, it's good enough to know what is formally disbelieved, or excluded, from Christian faith.

Granted, that may not be the only way to know Protestantism, but it is certainly one good way.
The problem is that to understand someone else, one needs to listen and add graciousness instead of talk. If all you can hear is, "BAD! BAD! BAD!" when they are talking you have no hope of understanding--just verification of a presupposition.
Father Corapi, during his active ministry, spoke with admiration and love about the zeal of our Evangelical brethren -- in his typically grim fashion: "They do so much with so little."

The positive statement of Apostolic evangelization to members of the Protestant sects is this: "What you have is good, but there is no much more that Christ offers you through His Church. It is still here for you. Come and see!"

The greatest gifts:
- Complete assurance of the forgiveness of your sins, through sacramental confession.

- Receiving the living Christ in the Eucharist -- for real, and not merely symbolically or as a spiritual exercise. It's like being in heaven, without having to die first.

And so much more. Real relationships with Mary and saints, for example. You want to have "friends in high places"?.... You can! Christ has given them the task of knowing you, loving you, and praying for you with care. Just let them.

Want solutions to knotty biblical problems? The Apostles were not confused by what they wrote. Neither do we need to be. The teachings of the Apostles have been saved for you, just as we saved the Bible for you. Together, the Bible becomes much richer than the Bible alone.

All of the gifts that the early Protestant Fathers discarded.... can still be yours.
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Skip » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:12 pm

Del wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:30 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am
+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! …
As I've said before, "The way to understand Protestantism is through what it rejects, not through what it affirms." To know what is heresy, it's good enough to know what is formally disbelieved, or excluded, from Christian faith.

Granted, that may not be the only way to know Protestantism, but it is certainly one good way.
The problem is that to understand someone else, one needs to listen and add graciousness instead of talk. If all you can hear is, "BAD! BAD! BAD!" when they are talking you have no hope of understanding--just verification of a presupposition.
Father Corapi, during his active ministry, spoke with admiration and love about the zeal of our Evangelical brethren -- in his typically grim fashion: "They do so much with so little."

The positive statement of Apostolic evangelization to members of the Protestant sects is this: "What you have is good, but there is no much more that Christ offers you through His Church. It is still here for you. Come and see!"

The greatest gifts:
- Complete assurance of the forgiveness of your sins, through sacramental confession.

- Receiving the living Christ in the Eucharist -- for real, and not merely symbolically or as a spiritual exercise. It's like being in heaven, without having to die first.

And so much more. Real relationships with Mary and saints, for example. You want to have "friends in high places"?.... You can! Christ has given them the task of knowing you, loving you, and praying for you with care. Just let them.

Want solutions to knotty biblical problems? The Apostles were not confused by what they wrote. Neither do we need to be. The teachings of the Apostles have been saved for you, just as we saved the Bible for you. Together, the Bible becomes much richer than the Bible alone.

All of the gifts that the early Protestant Fathers discarded.... can still be yours.
Mary, saints, and sacraments I can deal with. Arrogance, condescension, and an ongoing failure to even make it look like one is trying to understand the others' point(s) of view? By their fruits shall ye know them.

Del, I love you. But your method of discussion has driven people away from the RCC. Your method of discussion has driven ME away from the RCC. You've proven that you're no better - or worse - than any other group that truly attempts to follow the teachings of Christ. Look in the mirror, Del.
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:06 pm

Skip wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:12 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:30 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am
+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! …
As I've said before, "The way to understand Protestantism is through what it rejects, not through what it affirms." To know what is heresy, it's good enough to know what is formally disbelieved, or excluded, from Christian faith.

Granted, that may not be the only way to know Protestantism, but it is certainly one good way.
The problem is that to understand someone else, one needs to listen and add graciousness instead of talk. If all you can hear is, "BAD! BAD! BAD!" when they are talking you have no hope of understanding--just verification of a presupposition.
Father Corapi, during his active ministry, spoke with admiration and love about the zeal of our Evangelical brethren -- in his typically grim fashion: "They do so much with so little."

The positive statement of Apostolic evangelization to members of the Protestant sects is this: "What you have is good, but there is no much more that Christ offers you through His Church. It is still here for you. Come and see!"

The greatest gifts:
- Complete assurance of the forgiveness of your sins, through sacramental confession.

- Receiving the living Christ in the Eucharist -- for real, and not merely symbolically or as a spiritual exercise. It's like being in heaven, without having to die first.

And so much more. Real relationships with Mary and saints, for example. You want to have "friends in high places"?.... You can! Christ has given them the task of knowing you, loving you, and praying for you with care. Just let them.

Want solutions to knotty biblical problems? The Apostles were not confused by what they wrote. Neither do we need to be. The teachings of the Apostles have been saved for you, just as we saved the Bible for you. Together, the Bible becomes much richer than the Bible alone.

All of the gifts that the early Protestant Fathers discarded.... can still be yours.
Mary, saints, and sacraments I can deal with. Arrogance, condescension, and an ongoing failure to even make it look like one is trying to understand the others' point(s) of view? By their fruits shall ye know them.

Del, I love you. But your method of discussion has driven people away from the RCC. Your method of discussion has driven ME away from the RCC. You've proven that you're no better - or worse - than any other group that truly attempts to follow the teachings of Christ. Look in the mirror, Del.
Del alone is no reason to make religious choices. You know one can be Catholic and not have to interact with Del, right?

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by hugodrax » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:10 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:06 pm
Skip wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:12 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:30 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am
+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! …
As I've said before, "The way to understand Protestantism is through what it rejects, not through what it affirms." To know what is heresy, it's good enough to know what is formally disbelieved, or excluded, from Christian faith.

Granted, that may not be the only way to know Protestantism, but it is certainly one good way.
The problem is that to understand someone else, one needs to listen and add graciousness instead of talk. If all you can hear is, "BAD! BAD! BAD!" when they are talking you have no hope of understanding--just verification of a presupposition.
Father Corapi, during his active ministry, spoke with admiration and love about the zeal of our Evangelical brethren -- in his typically grim fashion: "They do so much with so little."

The positive statement of Apostolic evangelization to members of the Protestant sects is this: "What you have is good, but there is no much more that Christ offers you through His Church. It is still here for you. Come and see!"

The greatest gifts:
- Complete assurance of the forgiveness of your sins, through sacramental confession.

- Receiving the living Christ in the Eucharist -- for real, and not merely symbolically or as a spiritual exercise. It's like being in heaven, without having to die first.

And so much more. Real relationships with Mary and saints, for example. You want to have "friends in high places"?.... You can! Christ has given them the task of knowing you, loving you, and praying for you with care. Just let them.

Want solutions to knotty biblical problems? The Apostles were not confused by what they wrote. Neither do we need to be. The teachings of the Apostles have been saved for you, just as we saved the Bible for you. Together, the Bible becomes much richer than the Bible alone.

All of the gifts that the early Protestant Fathers discarded.... can still be yours.
Mary, saints, and sacraments I can deal with. Arrogance, condescension, and an ongoing failure to even make it look like one is trying to understand the others' point(s) of view? By their fruits shall ye know them.

Del, I love you. But your method of discussion has driven people away from the RCC. Your method of discussion has driven ME away from the RCC. You've proven that you're no better - or worse - than any other group that truly attempts to follow the teachings of Christ. Look in the mirror, Del.
Del alone is no reason to make religious choices. You know one can be Catholic and not have to interact with Del, right?
Hell, you know you can be a Catholic and slap him around for the arrogance, condescension, and ongoing failure to make it look like one is trying to understand the others' point(s) of view, right? It's actually a ton of fun.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Skip » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:18 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:10 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:06 pm
Skip wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:12 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:30 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am
+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! …
As I've said before, "The way to understand Protestantism is through what it rejects, not through what it affirms." To know what is heresy, it's good enough to know what is formally disbelieved, or excluded, from Christian faith.

Granted, that may not be the only way to know Protestantism, but it is certainly one good way.
The problem is that to understand someone else, one needs to listen and add graciousness instead of talk. If all you can hear is, "BAD! BAD! BAD!" when they are talking you have no hope of understanding--just verification of a presupposition.
Father Corapi, during his active ministry, spoke with admiration and love about the zeal of our Evangelical brethren -- in his typically grim fashion: "They do so much with so little."

The positive statement of Apostolic evangelization to members of the Protestant sects is this: "What you have is good, but there is no much more that Christ offers you through His Church. It is still here for you. Come and see!"

The greatest gifts:
- Complete assurance of the forgiveness of your sins, through sacramental confession.

- Receiving the living Christ in the Eucharist -- for real, and not merely symbolically or as a spiritual exercise. It's like being in heaven, without having to die first.

And so much more. Real relationships with Mary and saints, for example. You want to have "friends in high places"?.... You can! Christ has given them the task of knowing you, loving you, and praying for you with care. Just let them.

Want solutions to knotty biblical problems? The Apostles were not confused by what they wrote. Neither do we need to be. The teachings of the Apostles have been saved for you, just as we saved the Bible for you. Together, the Bible becomes much richer than the Bible alone.

All of the gifts that the early Protestant Fathers discarded.... can still be yours.
Mary, saints, and sacraments I can deal with. Arrogance, condescension, and an ongoing failure to even make it look like one is trying to understand the others' point(s) of view? By their fruits shall ye know them.

Del, I love you. But your method of discussion has driven people away from the RCC. Your method of discussion has driven ME away from the RCC. You've proven that you're no better - or worse - than any other group that truly attempts to follow the teachings of Christ. Look in the mirror, Del.
Del alone is no reason to make religious choices. You know one can be Catholic and not have to interact with Del, right?
Hell, you know you can be a Catholic and slap him around for the arrogance, condescension, and ongoing failure to make it look like one is trying to understand the others' point(s) of view, right? It's actually a ton of fun.
Oh, I agree with both of you. I'm just trying to get Del to understand that his method of engagement is, well, "non-optimal." For a few years, I listened to a lot of Catholic radio and the like - Sirius and EWTN - and got pretty damned tired of the condescension shown by hosts and callers-in toward those who truly wanted to understand Christ's purposes for His Church, but hadn't the "honor" (not Del's words, but others') of having been born into the RCC. Saying you want somebody to join your club but telling them how stupid they are for not being in your club? Yeah, that's gonna work...
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by hugodrax » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:33 pm

Skip wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:18 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:10 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:06 pm
Skip wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:12 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:30 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am
+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! …
As I've said before, "The way to understand Protestantism is through what it rejects, not through what it affirms." To know what is heresy, it's good enough to know what is formally disbelieved, or excluded, from Christian faith.

Granted, that may not be the only way to know Protestantism, but it is certainly one good way.
The problem is that to understand someone else, one needs to listen and add graciousness instead of talk. If all you can hear is, "BAD! BAD! BAD!" when they are talking you have no hope of understanding--just verification of a presupposition.
Father Corapi, during his active ministry, spoke with admiration and love about the zeal of our Evangelical brethren -- in his typically grim fashion: "They do so much with so little."

The positive statement of Apostolic evangelization to members of the Protestant sects is this: "What you have is good, but there is no much more that Christ offers you through His Church. It is still here for you. Come and see!"

The greatest gifts:
- Complete assurance of the forgiveness of your sins, through sacramental confession.

- Receiving the living Christ in the Eucharist -- for real, and not merely symbolically or as a spiritual exercise. It's like being in heaven, without having to die first.

And so much more. Real relationships with Mary and saints, for example. You want to have "friends in high places"?.... You can! Christ has given them the task of knowing you, loving you, and praying for you with care. Just let them.

Want solutions to knotty biblical problems? The Apostles were not confused by what they wrote. Neither do we need to be. The teachings of the Apostles have been saved for you, just as we saved the Bible for you. Together, the Bible becomes much richer than the Bible alone.

All of the gifts that the early Protestant Fathers discarded.... can still be yours.
Mary, saints, and sacraments I can deal with. Arrogance, condescension, and an ongoing failure to even make it look like one is trying to understand the others' point(s) of view? By their fruits shall ye know them.

Del, I love you. But your method of discussion has driven people away from the RCC. Your method of discussion has driven ME away from the RCC. You've proven that you're no better - or worse - than any other group that truly attempts to follow the teachings of Christ. Look in the mirror, Del.
Del alone is no reason to make religious choices. You know one can be Catholic and not have to interact with Del, right?
Hell, you know you can be a Catholic and slap him around for the arrogance, condescension, and ongoing failure to make it look like one is trying to understand the others' point(s) of view, right? It's actually a ton of fun.
Oh, I agree with both of you. I'm just trying to get Del to understand that his method of engagement is, well, "non-optimal." For a few years, I listened to a lot of Catholic radio and the like - Sirius and EWTN - and got pretty damned tired of the condescension shown by hosts and callers-in toward those who truly wanted to understand Christ's purposes for His Church, but hadn't the "honor" (not Del's words, but others') of having been born into the RCC. Saying you want somebody to join your club but telling them how stupid they are for not being in your club? Yeah, that's gonna work...
I've said for years that I don't think Del wants anyone to join the club, Skipper. I think he's a plant from the SBC.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by tuttle » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm

Del wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:30 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am
As I've said before, "The way to understand Protestantism is through what it rejects, not through what it affirms."
All of the gifts that the early Protestant Fathers discarded.... can still be yours.
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. The Reformers found themselves in exactly what CS Lewis put forth: "Put first things first and we get second things thrown in: put second things first and we lose both first and second things."

What the Reformers sought to do was not to discard the second things altogether, but to restore the first thing as the first thing. Putting the Good News front and center again automatically removed the second things that usurped the first. They weren't stripped or discarded, they were put in their proper place.

(I'm speaking of motives of the movement. I am well aware that thoughtless discarding and rejecting have occurred since then, but that would be better addressed elsewhere. The point is, such things weren't inherently part of the movement.)
"You're my kind of stupid" -Mal Reynolds

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Jester » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:17 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:33 pm
Skip wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:18 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:10 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:06 pm
Skip wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:12 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:30 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am
+JMJ+
Skip wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:34 am
Del, I often give you grief, so let me apologize now if some have taken my - call'em what they are - attacks on you as personal attacks. You're a great guy and I love the times we've spent together. I get terribly frustrated with you when you speak as from a position of authority on things of which you know little more than nothing. Take this topic, for example. I've attended Calvinist, Wesleyan, and independent churches for decades, and ALL OF THEM accept the four sacraments above EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, excepting - of course - the concept of Transubstantiation. Where DO you get your ideas of what those outside the RCC believe? You tell us we're little more than heretics, but you don't even know what we believe! …
As I've said before, "The way to understand Protestantism is through what it rejects, not through what it affirms." To know what is heresy, it's good enough to know what is formally disbelieved, or excluded, from Christian faith.

Granted, that may not be the only way to know Protestantism, but it is certainly one good way.
The problem is that to understand someone else, one needs to listen and add graciousness instead of talk. If all you can hear is, "BAD! BAD! BAD!" when they are talking you have no hope of understanding--just verification of a presupposition.
Father Corapi, during his active ministry, spoke with admiration and love about the zeal of our Evangelical brethren -- in his typically grim fashion: "They do so much with so little."

The positive statement of Apostolic evangelization to members of the Protestant sects is this: "What you have is good, but there is no much more that Christ offers you through His Church. It is still here for you. Come and see!"

The greatest gifts:
- Complete assurance of the forgiveness of your sins, through sacramental confession.

- Receiving the living Christ in the Eucharist -- for real, and not merely symbolically or as a spiritual exercise. It's like being in heaven, without having to die first.

And so much more. Real relationships with Mary and saints, for example. You want to have "friends in high places"?.... You can! Christ has given them the task of knowing you, loving you, and praying for you with care. Just let them.

Want solutions to knotty biblical problems? The Apostles were not confused by what they wrote. Neither do we need to be. The teachings of the Apostles have been saved for you, just as we saved the Bible for you. Together, the Bible becomes much richer than the Bible alone.

All of the gifts that the early Protestant Fathers discarded.... can still be yours.
Mary, saints, and sacraments I can deal with. Arrogance, condescension, and an ongoing failure to even make it look like one is trying to understand the others' point(s) of view? By their fruits shall ye know them.

Del, I love you. But your method of discussion has driven people away from the RCC. Your method of discussion has driven ME away from the RCC. You've proven that you're no better - or worse - than any other group that truly attempts to follow the teachings of Christ. Look in the mirror, Del.
Del alone is no reason to make religious choices. You know one can be Catholic and not have to interact with Del, right?
Hell, you know you can be a Catholic and slap him around for the arrogance, condescension, and ongoing failure to make it look like one is trying to understand the others' point(s) of view, right? It's actually a ton of fun.
Oh, I agree with both of you. I'm just trying to get Del to understand that his method of engagement is, well, "non-optimal." For a few years, I listened to a lot of Catholic radio and the like - Sirius and EWTN - and got pretty damned tired of the condescension shown by hosts and callers-in toward those who truly wanted to understand Christ's purposes for His Church, but hadn't the "honor" (not Del's words, but others') of having been born into the RCC. Saying you want somebody to join your club but telling them how stupid they are for not being in your club? Yeah, that's gonna work...
I've said for years that I don't think Del wants anyone to join the club, Skipper. I think he's a plant from the SBC.
Quiet you. His check already cashed.
I smoke a cigar because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense. -Michael Knowles

Pumpkin Ale is more American than apple pie! -Tuttle

When chaos manifests itself, what makes you think that anyone tame will be good for anything? -Jordan B. Peterson

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Winton
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Winton » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:56 pm

I have had long conversations with Del a few years ago at the pipe show. I asked him about one of my nutty Catholic friends and her beliefs. Del agreed she had gone over the edge and then described the proper interpretation for the views she was practicing.

The next day, Del asked me to explain why some evangelical ban all alcohol. I explained some of the history of our roots and the various views on the issue. I believe that each conversation was about an hour and we were friendly the entire time. Sitting across a table, sharing tobacco helps.

FYI, I am surprised that this thread had taken the path it went on.

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wosbald
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by wosbald » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:02 pm

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Obviously from your point of view the Reformation was about discarding and rejecting, an inherently negative movement. What you fail to see (from the protestant perspective) is that it was an inherently positive movement. It was a movement that sought, not to discard, but to recover, to regain that which had been overlooked, overshadowed, crowded out, ignored, either willfully or through neglect. The point is, that which ought to have been center stage--the astounding good news of Christ forgiving sinners lock, stock, and barrel and that grace was given without any catch--was no longer the apple of the Church's eye. It was no longer the news being proclaimed. And what's more, innovations that flat contradicted the good news was being lifted up as if they were the stars of the show. …
That would certainly seem to put your assertion that Catholics are still "part of the forest" into question.

That is, unless you want to resort to the qualification (a qualification which creates a whole nest of lacunae for the totalistic aspirations Protestant theology) that certain Catholics might still be "saved", despite their membership in the "Romish system".




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Del
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Re: We did communion wrong today.

Post by Del » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:25 pm

I was praying at the 40 Days vigil last night. My prayer partner was a Mexican fellow I had never met before, Juan. He was not scheduled to pray... He had finished his second-shift warehouse job and just wanted to stop by.

We talked a bit to get acquainted. He was a very normal fellow, with all of the usual family joys and sorrows. His mother had several children by different men; she desperately begged her son to marry in the Church and stay married, avoiding her mistakes. Some of his brothers and sisters have left the Church, although they seem to have found homes with Evangelical groups. He talked about visiting their worship... both beautiful and sad for him. All the "singing and talking fills the heart," he said. But something was missing.

After a while, he revealed that he is a mystic. He has seen the face of Jesus in the Eucharist a few times, appearing bloody and crowned with thorns. One time Jesus appeared to him during the Consecration, full-size, obliterating everything with His aura so that Jesus was all that he could see. This was the Risen Lord, wearing a cape that was sort of like the vestment of a priest and sort of like the robe of a king. The cape was red, and he held the roses of Our Lady of Guadalupe. He was also surrounded by Guadalupe's stars.

He did not receive any messages, and he still ponders why he was given these visions and what they should mean. He talked about sharing this with his pastor (whom I know; every Catholic in Madison knows this priest, a wise spiritual director). The pastor merely listened silently and smiled.

All I know is -- This is a most excellent way to do Communion!

We also shared our experiences of hearing Mary's voice and feeling her presence. This is a common-enough experience among prayerful Catholics... although I am still blown away by the Mexicans' cultural devotion to their Mother.

We prayed the Rosary together... I begged him to pray his part in Spanish. I cannot describe this experience, if you have never prayed with a humble mystic before.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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