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Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:14 pm
by Goose55
Pepik wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:01 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:36 pm
Folk from Leaf Only were very helpful. I received a great how to reply, and purchased some leaf to give this a try.
Make sure to share results and how that works out!
My first try at shredding & "stoving" the Lemon Virginia. I cut the leaf into ribbon right out of the bag w/o adding distilled or any other water. I "stoved" it in a high quality large clean teflon skillet, at very low temperature first, but then increased the gas flame as I did not see much change in several minutes. I continuously moved the ribbon around gently. It began to smoke and it wasn't steam. It even smelled burned, and doesn't smoke very well, mixed 1:3 w/ McClelland 5100 Red Cake

I am thinking maybe the cut ribbon needs first to be well hydrated, so that steam is involved in blackening it ? to create as written on the McCl Aurora label, "rich, deeply aromatic Black Stoved Lemon Virginia."

Another thought I had was to hydrate the ribbon well, spread out maybe 1/2 inch deep and then place a flat object on top, with weight and just let that "cook" undisturbed under low heat?

What are your thoughts?

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Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:19 pm
by alpol05
Goose55 wrote:
My first try at shredding & "stoving" the Lemon Virginia. I cut the leaf into ribbon right out of the bag w/o adding distilled or any other water. I "stoved" it in a high quality large clean teflon skillet, at very low temperature first, but then increased the gas flame as I did not see much change in several minutes. I continuously moved the ribbon around gently. It began to smoke and it wasn't steam. It even smelled burned, and doesn't smoke very well, mixed 1:3 w/ McClelland 5100 Red Cake

I am thinking maybe the cut ribbon needs first to be well hydrated, so that steam is involved in blackening it ? to create as written on the McCl Aurora label, "rich, deeply aromatic Black Stoved Lemon Virginia."

Another thought I had was to hydrate the ribbon well, spread out maybe 1/2 inch deep and then place a flat object on top, with weight and just let that "cook" undisturbed under low heat?
What are your thoughts?
Goose,

I think you will need to read this post:

Re: Stoved Virginia
"Stoving" is a somewhat vague term that always refers to heating the tobacco. The divergence is that "stoving" sometimes refers to baking or toasting (under a confusing range of temperatures and durations), but may sometimes refer to applying moist heat (e.g. steaming). Higher temps usually result in darker tobacco: darker red, brown or even black. Steaming darkens tobacco to brown and eventually to black. Nearly all of the "stoving" techniques used by commercial pipe tobacco manufacturers are closely held proprietary secrets.
http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/722 ... ht=stoving

Also, there are other posts that you can explore:
http://fairtradetobacco.com/search.php?searchid=912241
Good luck,

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:40 pm
by Goose55
Why, thanks, Alpol. That was a good read

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:33 am
by joegoat
I've had plans to grow a couple dozen tobacco plants for a few years now. I've never put seed to soil though. I always think of it too late. Growing should be fairly easy, but curing and aging seems to be the hardest part. Raised beds are all the rave among vegetable gardeners these days. Being able to taylor blend the soil for the tobacco type you want to grow would be easy in this set up.
I don't need another hobby, but I've always thought tobacco plants were attractive. Especially when I'm passing vast fields of them on motorcycle trips through North Carolina. I might still have enough time to plant some this year.
Even if it isn't the greatest pipe tobacco I could always apply a bit of flavouring and make twists for chewing.
Backyard tobacco hobby plantations may be the next thing in our future. Could the moderators consider a DIY Tobacco Room that would cover home growing and home blending?

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:55 am
by sweetandsour
joegoat wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:33 am
I've had plans to grow a couple dozen tobacco plants for a few years now. I've never put seed to soil though. I always think of it too late. Growing should be fairly easy, but curing and aging seems to be the hardest part. Raised beds are all the rave among vegetable gardeners these days. Being able to taylor blend the soil for the tobacco type you want to grow would be easy in this set up.
I don't need another hobby, but I've always thought tobacco plants were attractive. Especially when I'm passing vast fields of them on motorcycle trips through North Carolina. I might still have enough time to plant some this year.
Even if it isn't the greatest pipe tobacco I could always apply a bit of flavouring and make twists for chewing.
Backyard tobacco hobby plantations may be the next thing in our future. Could the moderators consider a DIY Tobacco Room that would cover home growing and home blending?
Good idea. A guy at my church grows an acre of sugar cane every year and makes some great syrup; and I've almost got him convinced to lease me a 1/4 - 1/2 acre or so for tobacco.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:51 am
by Irish-Dane
joegoat wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:33 am
I've had plans to grow a couple dozen tobacco plants for a few years now. I've never put seed to soil though. I always think of it too late. Growing should be fairly easy, but curing and aging seems to be the hardest part.
Except for the "growing is easy" part, you nailed it. Once it's started and transplanted (which is not so easy), it's grows good and strong and beautiful. And then you get to the processing part. I failed big time right there and have never grown it since.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:42 am
by Goose55
Irish-Dane wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:51 am
joegoat wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:33 am
I've had plans to grow a couple dozen tobacco plants for a few years now. I've never put seed to soil though. I always think of it too late. Growing should be fairly easy, but curing and aging seems to be the hardest part.
Except for the "growing is easy" part, you nailed it. Once it's started and transplanted (which is not so easy), it's grows good and strong and beautiful. And then you get to the processing part. I failed big time right there and have never grown it since.
Theres got to be good books at the library to help with curing and aging. If not a library can do an inter-library loan from one that does have the required book.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:24 pm
by alpol05
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:42 am
Theres got to be good books at the library to help with curing and aging. If not a library can do an inter-library loan from one that does have the required book.
I have been looking into this, but sadly to say I could not find anything on these subjects. There are some documents available from the Dept. of Agriculture and some (few) research papers, but nothing like DIY book that one can use as a guide. The best source of information that I found is this website: http://fairtradetobacco.com/.

I am not a tobacco grower or plan to grow. The reason I participate in that site is that they have many recipes for blending tobacco for pipes. I purchased some leaf from the store associated with this website (https://wholeleaftobacco.com) and made a few blends. I like these a lot.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:35 pm
by Goose55
And then there is Carl Elwa's book, Pipes & Tobacco. That has a lot of information in there about curing and aging tobacco.

I wonder how many know Carl was married to Mary McClelland and was a co-founder of McCl Tobacco Co before Mike McNeil came in soon afterwards. .

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:35 pm
by Irish-Dane
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:42 am
Irish-Dane wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:51 am
joegoat wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:33 am
I've had plans to grow a couple dozen tobacco plants for a few years now. I've never put seed to soil though. I always think of it too late. Growing should be fairly easy, but curing and aging seems to be the hardest part.
Except for the "growing is easy" part, you nailed it. Once it's started and transplanted (which is not so easy), it's grows good and strong and beautiful. And then you get to the processing part. I failed big time right there and have never grown it since.
Theres got to be good books at the library to help with curing and aging. If not a library can do an inter-library loan from one that does have the required book.
It's not about not having resources... I had those in droves. Books, emails, the Google machine, you name it. My point was it's not as easy to do and there's a reason some are experts and the rest fail. I failed.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:53 pm
by alpol05
Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:35 pm
And then there is Carl Elwa's book, Pipes & Tobacco. That has a lot of information in there about curing and aging tobacco.

I wonder how many know Carl was married to Mary McClelland and was a co-founder of McCl Tobacco Co before Mike McNeil came in soon afterwards. .
I have this book and know the chapter on curing well. There is really 2 half-pages (space is mostly occupied by photos) on the subject of curing. Yes, there is this type description in many books. I was mostly focused on DIY and the book is not very helpful in that regard unless one can invest a lot of money. I see this book as a "coffee table" book of basic information and nice photography.

The story of Carl and his marriage to Mary McClelland was published on this and other websites.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:58 pm
by alpol05
Irish-Dane wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:35 pm
It's not about not having resources... I had those in droves. Books, emails, the Google machine, you name it. My point was it's not as easy to do and there's a reason some are experts and the rest fail. I failed.
I agree. It is a quite complicated process and not easy to go thru successfully. Time investment and all other resources needed are prohibiting for many. Blending from a "pure tobacco" is by itself complicated and time-consuming enough.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:24 pm
by joegoat
alpol05 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:58 pm
Irish-Dane wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:35 pm
It's not about not having resources... I had those in droves. Books, emails, the Google machine, you name it. My point was it's not as easy to do and there's a reason some are experts and the rest fail. I failed.
I agree. It is a quite complicated process and not easy to go thru successfully. Time investment and all other resources needed are prohibiting for many. Blending from a "pure tobacco" is by itself complicated and time-consuming enough.
I think it could form a whole new community of bartering. One guy may be good at making a stoved Virginia, another may be good at curing a lovely burley. Someone may be curing a latakia type tobacco over aromatic wood fires. Just about every fine tobacco blend requires on several tobaccos from several sources. Even the lowest grade of cigarette has several different leaves in it and some other "stuff." Maybe someday the Chicago Pipe show will be a place for home growers to sell their leaf and trade with other growers. I'm sure there are legal issues to be worked out, but could you imagine the aroma of a room piled with cured and aged tobaccos? Better than grandma's cookies!

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:34 pm
by alpol05
joegoat wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:24 pm
I think it could form a whole new community of bartering. One guy may be good at making a stoved Virginia, another may be good at curing a lovely burley. Someone may be curing a latakia type tobacco over aromatic wood fires. Just about every fine tobacco blend requires on several tobaccos from several sources. Even the lowest grade of cigarette has several different leaves in it and some other "stuff." Maybe someday the Chicago Pipe show will be a place for home growers to sell their leaf and trade with other growers. I'm sure there are legal issues to be worked out, but could you imagine the aroma of a room piled with cured and aged tobaccos? Better than grandma's cookies!
LOL..., LOL... Great idea! It would be much easier to make own blends if the tobacco exchange would be freely acceptable among growers and blenders. Just recently I made a blend of 12 different tobaccos. It is not ready yet to really test and finalize - need some time to meld and "rest". I will post the recipe after I finalize the whole thing.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:49 am
by Goose55
joegoat wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:24 pm
alpol05 wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:58 pm
Irish-Dane wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:35 pm
It's not about not having resources... I had those in droves. Books, emails, the Google machine, you name it. My point was it's not as easy to do and there's a reason some are experts and the rest fail. I failed.
I agree. It is a quite complicated process and not easy to go thru successfully. Time investment and all other resources needed are prohibiting for many. Blending from a "pure tobacco" is by itself complicated and time-consuming enough.
I think it could form a whole new community of bartering. One guy may be good at making a stoved Virginia, another may be good at curing a lovely burley. Someone may be curing a latakia type tobacco over aromatic wood fires. Just about every fine tobacco blend requires on several tobaccos from several sources. Even the lowest grade of cigarette has several different leaves in it and some other "stuff." Maybe someday the Chicago Pipe show will be a place for home growers to sell their leaf and trade with other growers. I'm sure there are legal issues to be worked out, but could you imagine the aroma of a room piled with cured and aged tobaccos? Better than grandma's cookies!
Oh, yes! The aroma of the tobacco! The Canadian Lemon Yellow I got from Leaf Only smelled pretty darn good. Since my teflon pan method failed at making a palatable Stoved Lemon Yellow, my next experiements will be to distance the falme and just use heat. I am going to hydrate the leaf a little w/ distilled water before shredding and place the ribbon in two 4 ounce Kerr jars tightened loosely. One will go into a simmering pot of water and the other in the oven. I will monitor the ribbon for color change.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:22 pm
by alpol05
Goose55 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:49 am
Oh, yes! The aroma of the tobacco! The Canadian Lemon Yellow I got from Leaf Only smelled pretty darn good. Since my teflon pan method failed at making a palatable Stoved Lemon Yellow, my next experiements will be to distance the falme and just use heat. I am going to hydrate the leaf a little w/ distilled water before shredding and place the ribbon in two 4 ounce Kerr jars tightened loosely. One will go into a simmering pot of water and the other in the oven. I will monitor the ribbon for color change.
Goose, I will be looking for your report on this exercise. I will need to make some stoved tobacco myself and your experience will be valuable.

Good luck!

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:52 pm
by joegoat
alpol05 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:22 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:49 am
Oh, yes! The aroma of the tobacco! The Canadian Lemon Yellow I got from Leaf Only smelled pretty darn good. Since my teflon pan method failed at making a palatable Stoved Lemon Yellow, my next experiements will be to distance the falme and just use heat. I am going to hydrate the leaf a little w/ distilled water before shredding and place the ribbon in two 4 ounce Kerr jars tightened loosely. One will go into a simmering pot of water and the other in the oven. I will monitor the ribbon for color change.
Goose, I will be looking for your report on this exercise. I will need to make some stoved tobacco myself and your experience will be valuable.

Good luck!
Isn't Black Cavendish treated with steam to darken it? A double boiler may be the ticket for indirect heat. I'd like to get an empty, once used kentucky bourbon barrel and pack it with a nice Virginia for a bit of aging. I believe that's how they produce Perique. I need to spend some time reading up on this it's a science as much as it is an art.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:59 pm
by UncleBob
joegoat wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:52 pm
alpol05 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:22 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:49 am
Oh, yes! The aroma of the tobacco! The Canadian Lemon Yellow I got from Leaf Only smelled pretty darn good. Since my teflon pan method failed at making a palatable Stoved Lemon Yellow, my next experiements will be to distance the falme and just use heat. I am going to hydrate the leaf a little w/ distilled water before shredding and place the ribbon in two 4 ounce Kerr jars tightened loosely. One will go into a simmering pot of water and the other in the oven. I will monitor the ribbon for color change.
Goose, I will be looking for your report on this exercise. I will need to make some stoved tobacco myself and your experience will be valuable.

Good luck!
Isn't Black Cavendish treated with steam to darken it? A double boiler may be the ticket for indirect heat. I'd like to get an empty, once used kentucky bourbon barrel and pack it with a nice Virginia for a bit of aging. I believe that's how they produce Perique. I need to spend some time reading up on this it's a science as much as it is an art.
I always made it in a Crock pot but I knew people who made small batches with a tea kettle.

Re: How Can I Buy Black Stoved Lemon Virginia?

Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:31 pm
by alpol05
Goose,

I was reading this article and I believe your first attempt - the Stoving - was correct.

Here is what it said:
"Stoving- This is when the tobacco is in contact with a surface that is heated. Picture a large cookie sheet, pizza pan or wok with a heat source underneath, and the tobacco on the surface. It is moved around, pretty much constantly, until it blackens, which changes the flavor tremendously. An example of this type of tobacco is McClelland’s 5105."

The second attempt that you are working on - cooking in the jar - looks more like Steaming. Here is an excerpt from the article:
"Heat- Applying heat to tobacco can mildly or radically change the flavor of tobacco. Some people even use their own form of heat processing at home to achieve a certain effect, such as putting an unopened tin on the dashboard of their car on a sunny summer day. Different methods of applying heat will do different things. Some methods include:

Steaming- This not only will help to caramelize the sugars in the leaf, but also opens the pores, allowing the tobacco to more easily absorb casings and top dressings."

I think this should work for what you are trying to achieve. Here is the link to the article:
http://pipesmagazine.com/blog/put-that- ... e-tobacco/