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gaining_age
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Re: Economics

Post by gaining_age » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:48 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:09 pm
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/609832/
The Millennials entered the workforce during the worst downturn since the Great Depression. Saddled with debt, unable to accumulate wealth, and stuck in low-benefit, dead-end jobs, they never gained the financial security that their parents, grandparents, or even older siblings enjoyed. They are now entering their peak earning years in the midst of an economic cataclysm more severe than the Great Recession, near guaranteeing that they will be the first generation in modern American history to end up poorer than their parents.
Interesting to note, from my discussions and observations so part may be anecdotal, the parents with high earning jobs are having kids choose careers with different opportunities. I've talked to engineers and some of their kids started in engineering or physics and then turned aside for, and one comes to mind specifically, designing clothes for actors in community plays. This is yet another factor that goes into "first generation ... to end up poorer than their parents." It's the higher end middle class (top 80%?) that won't pass along huge inheritance (not talking about Paris Hilton's parents) and the kids may make alternate decisions for a market space that couldn't pay the same range as the parents' market space.

There's no judgment here, kids making career choices that meet their desires and interests, and it may have been similar in times in the past-- yet it compounds the other consideration.
Out of control odd rare old man (or possibly an hobbyist). -- Label by The Big R.
The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

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Re: Economics

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:21 am

gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:48 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:09 pm
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/609832/
The Millennials entered the workforce during the worst downturn since the Great Depression. Saddled with debt, unable to accumulate wealth, and stuck in low-benefit, dead-end jobs, they never gained the financial security that their parents, grandparents, or even older siblings enjoyed. They are now entering their peak earning years in the midst of an economic cataclysm more severe than the Great Recession, near guaranteeing that they will be the first generation in modern American history to end up poorer than their parents.
Interesting to note, from my discussions and observations so part may be anecdotal, the parents with high earning jobs are having kids choose careers with different opportunities. I've talked to engineers and some of their kids started in engineering or physics and then turned aside for, and one comes to mind specifically, designing clothes for actors in community plays. This is yet another factor that goes into "first generation ... to end up poorer than their parents." It's the higher end middle class (top 80%?) that won't pass along huge inheritance (not talking about Paris Hilton's parents) and the kids may make alternate decisions for a market space that couldn't pay the same range as the parents' market space.

There's no judgment here, kids making career choices that meet their desires and interests, and it may have been similar in times in the past-- yet it compounds the other consideration.
Well, that's a subset of the population, which definitely exists. Not be the biggest, though, or the driving force behind the Great Poorening.

What about the children of the working class not doing as well as their parents? Children of factory workers and retail managers?

The problem isnt that the bourgeoisie become peasants, for peasants are preferable to the bourgeois. The problem is that the peasants will become serfs.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

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Re: Economics

Post by gaining_age » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:30 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:21 am
gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:48 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:09 pm
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/609832/
The Millennials entered the workforce during the worst downturn since the Great Depression. Saddled with debt, unable to accumulate wealth, and stuck in low-benefit, dead-end jobs, they never gained the financial security that their parents, grandparents, or even older siblings enjoyed. They are now entering their peak earning years in the midst of an economic cataclysm more severe than the Great Recession, near guaranteeing that they will be the first generation in modern American history to end up poorer than their parents.
Interesting to note, from my discussions and observations so part may be anecdotal, the parents with high earning jobs are having kids choose careers with different opportunities. I've talked to engineers and some of their kids started in engineering or physics and then turned aside for, and one comes to mind specifically, designing clothes for actors in community plays. This is yet another factor that goes into "first generation ... to end up poorer than their parents." It's the higher end middle class (top 80%?) that won't pass along huge inheritance (not talking about Paris Hilton's parents) and the kids may make alternate decisions for a market space that couldn't pay the same range as the parents' market space.

There's no judgment here, kids making career choices that meet their desires and interests, and it may have been similar in times in the past-- yet it compounds the other consideration.
Well, that's a subset of the population, which definitely exists. Not be the biggest, though, or the driving force behind the Great Poorening.

What about the children of the working class not doing as well as their parents? Children of factory workers and retail managers?

The problem isnt that the bourgeoisie become peasants, for peasants are preferable to the bourgeois. The problem is that the peasants will become serfs.
Aha... how many peasants are shifting into the higher educated and engineering/professional degrees? Is the flux going up equal to, less than, or greater than the flux going down?

I gave a window into what I've observed. It wasn't meant as a declaration of higher proportion--merely a fact of reality that many may not perceive. You don't hear about the great success story of someone shrugging of high pressures and exertion to follow their path in a different way when the consequences don't fit societal definitions of "success".
Out of control odd rare old man (or possibly an hobbyist). -- Label by The Big R.
The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

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hugodrax
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Re: Economics

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:57 am

gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:30 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:21 am
gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:48 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:09 pm
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/609832/
The Millennials entered the workforce during the worst downturn since the Great Depression. Saddled with debt, unable to accumulate wealth, and stuck in low-benefit, dead-end jobs, they never gained the financial security that their parents, grandparents, or even older siblings enjoyed. They are now entering their peak earning years in the midst of an economic cataclysm more severe than the Great Recession, near guaranteeing that they will be the first generation in modern American history to end up poorer than their parents.
Interesting to note, from my discussions and observations so part may be anecdotal, the parents with high earning jobs are having kids choose careers with different opportunities. I've talked to engineers and some of their kids started in engineering or physics and then turned aside for, and one comes to mind specifically, designing clothes for actors in community plays. This is yet another factor that goes into "first generation ... to end up poorer than their parents." It's the higher end middle class (top 80%?) that won't pass along huge inheritance (not talking about Paris Hilton's parents) and the kids may make alternate decisions for a market space that couldn't pay the same range as the parents' market space.

There's no judgment here, kids making career choices that meet their desires and interests, and it may have been similar in times in the past-- yet it compounds the other consideration.
Well, that's a subset of the population, which definitely exists. Not be the biggest, though, or the driving force behind the Great Poorening.

What about the children of the working class not doing as well as their parents? Children of factory workers and retail managers?

The problem isnt that the bourgeoisie become peasants, for peasants are preferable to the bourgeois. The problem is that the peasants will become serfs.
Aha... how many peasants are shifting into the higher educated and engineering/professional degrees? Is the flux going up equal to, less than, or greater than the flux going down?

I gave a window into what I've observed. It wasn't meant as a declaration of higher proportion--merely a fact of reality that many may not perceive. You don't hear about the great success story of someone shrugging of high pressures and exertion to follow their path in a different way when the consequences don't fit societal definitions of "success".
Very few, in my experience. We seem to be moving towards an almost caste system in the US...lawyers have lawyers, doctors raise doctors, and engineers as always reproduce by asexual budding. Occasionally I run across an African American from a bad neighborhood, but almost never do I meet a young poor white who escaped the cycle.

Indeed, articles are being written now on the fact that wealthy whites would rather admit a poor black, foreigner, or asian into their ranks than a mechanic's or farmer's son.

As far as how many are going up vs going down, well, I'm not sure but I'd argue the number of folks on unemployment right now probably foreshadows the reality that people are going down the social ladder. I don't know whether they'll rebound.

It's nice to use alternative definitions of "success." And I agree that money isn't the only or even the most important indicator of success.

But this is the Economics thread. Money is the rubric. The last generation will end up more asset poor than their parents is the theory.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

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gaining_age
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Re: Economics

Post by gaining_age » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:57 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:57 am
gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:30 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:21 am
gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:48 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:09 pm
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/609832/
The Millennials entered the workforce during the worst downturn since the Great Depression. Saddled with debt, unable to accumulate wealth, and stuck in low-benefit, dead-end jobs, they never gained the financial security that their parents, grandparents, or even older siblings enjoyed. They are now entering their peak earning years in the midst of an economic cataclysm more severe than the Great Recession, near guaranteeing that they will be the first generation in modern American history to end up poorer than their parents.
Interesting to note, from my discussions and observations so part may be anecdotal, the parents with high earning jobs are having kids choose careers with different opportunities. I've talked to engineers and some of their kids started in engineering or physics and then turned aside for, and one comes to mind specifically, designing clothes for actors in community plays. This is yet another factor that goes into "first generation ... to end up poorer than their parents." It's the higher end middle class (top 80%?) that won't pass along huge inheritance (not talking about Paris Hilton's parents) and the kids may make alternate decisions for a market space that couldn't pay the same range as the parents' market space.

There's no judgment here, kids making career choices that meet their desires and interests, and it may have been similar in times in the past-- yet it compounds the other consideration.
Well, that's a subset of the population, which definitely exists. Not be the biggest, though, or the driving force behind the Great Poorening.

What about the children of the working class not doing as well as their parents? Children of factory workers and retail managers?

The problem isnt that the bourgeoisie become peasants, for peasants are preferable to the bourgeois. The problem is that the peasants will become serfs.
Aha... how many peasants are shifting into the higher educated and engineering/professional degrees? Is the flux going up equal to, less than, or greater than the flux going down?

I gave a window into what I've observed. It wasn't meant as a declaration of higher proportion--merely a fact of reality that many may not perceive. You don't hear about the great success story of someone shrugging of high pressures and exertion to follow their path in a different way when the consequences don't fit societal definitions of "success".
Very few, in my experience. We seem to be moving towards an almost caste system in the US...lawyers have lawyers, doctors raise doctors, and engineers as always reproduce by asexual budding. Occasionally I run across an African American from a bad neighborhood, but almost never do I meet a young poor white who escaped the cycle.

Indeed, articles are being written now on the fact that wealthy whites would rather admit a poor black, foreigner, or asian into their ranks than a mechanic's or farmer's son.

As far as how many are going up vs going down, well, I'm not sure but I'd argue the number of folks on unemployment right now probably foreshadows the reality that people are going down the social ladder. I don't know whether they'll rebound.

It's nice to use alternative definitions of "success." And I agree that money isn't the only or even the most important indicator of success.

But this is the Economics thread. Money is the rubric. The last generation will end up more asset poor than their parents is the theory.
Interesting points. I'm not convinced there isn't more at play.... at least past this last generation vs. the next ones. Perhaps it'll end up being cyclic on a multi-generational pattern and the economy will reflect it.

For your farmer/mechanic moving into white collar --that seems like a deficiency toward the URM policies. I wonder how long it takes for that to be realized.
Out of control odd rare old man (or possibly an hobbyist). -- Label by The Big R.
The 6s of 1st John:
2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus walked
3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning

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hugodrax
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Re: Economics

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:15 am

gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:57 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:57 am
gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:30 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:21 am
gaining_age wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:48 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:09 pm
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/609832/
The Millennials entered the workforce during the worst downturn since the Great Depression. Saddled with debt, unable to accumulate wealth, and stuck in low-benefit, dead-end jobs, they never gained the financial security that their parents, grandparents, or even older siblings enjoyed. They are now entering their peak earning years in the midst of an economic cataclysm more severe than the Great Recession, near guaranteeing that they will be the first generation in modern American history to end up poorer than their parents.
Interesting to note, from my discussions and observations so part may be anecdotal, the parents with high earning jobs are having kids choose careers with different opportunities. I've talked to engineers and some of their kids started in engineering or physics and then turned aside for, and one comes to mind specifically, designing clothes for actors in community plays. This is yet another factor that goes into "first generation ... to end up poorer than their parents." It's the higher end middle class (top 80%?) that won't pass along huge inheritance (not talking about Paris Hilton's parents) and the kids may make alternate decisions for a market space that couldn't pay the same range as the parents' market space.

There's no judgment here, kids making career choices that meet their desires and interests, and it may have been similar in times in the past-- yet it compounds the other consideration.
Well, that's a subset of the population, which definitely exists. Not be the biggest, though, or the driving force behind the Great Poorening.

What about the children of the working class not doing as well as their parents? Children of factory workers and retail managers?

The problem isnt that the bourgeoisie become peasants, for peasants are preferable to the bourgeois. The problem is that the peasants will become serfs.
Aha... how many peasants are shifting into the higher educated and engineering/professional degrees? Is the flux going up equal to, less than, or greater than the flux going down?

I gave a window into what I've observed. It wasn't meant as a declaration of higher proportion--merely a fact of reality that many may not perceive. You don't hear about the great success story of someone shrugging of high pressures and exertion to follow their path in a different way when the consequences don't fit societal definitions of "success".
Very few, in my experience. We seem to be moving towards an almost caste system in the US...lawyers have lawyers, doctors raise doctors, and engineers as always reproduce by asexual budding. Occasionally I run across an African American from a bad neighborhood, but almost never do I meet a young poor white who escaped the cycle.

Indeed, articles are being written now on the fact that wealthy whites would rather admit a poor black, foreigner, or asian into their ranks than a mechanic's or farmer's son.

As far as how many are going up vs going down, well, I'm not sure but I'd argue the number of folks on unemployment right now probably foreshadows the reality that people are going down the social ladder. I don't know whether they'll rebound.

It's nice to use alternative definitions of "success." And I agree that money isn't the only or even the most important indicator of success.

But this is the Economics thread. Money is the rubric. The last generation will end up more asset poor than their parents is the theory.
Interesting points. I'm not convinced there isn't more at play.... at least past this last generation vs. the next ones. Perhaps it'll end up being cyclic on a multi-generational pattern and the economy will reflect it.

For your farmer/mechanic moving into white collar --that seems like a deficiency toward the URM policies. I wonder how long it takes for that to be realized.
You shouldn't be convinced. I'd guarantee there is more at play than coronavirus. There has to be, because a lot of it was happening before the pandemic ever hit and it probably is cyclical to an extent. The problem is this shutdown is going to change the playing field yet again.

As to the white collar divide, it is a deficiency in governmental policy and hard to talk about without getting political so I'll stay a mile away...but other groups were advanced to the detriment of the countryside. Nobody gives a s*** about the underperforming rural school or the fact that more rural whites than urban blacks are on the dole. Where we idolize urban speech patterns, rural speech patterns ensure interview failure, urban drug use is of primary concern, rural drug use isn't worth the time, etc.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

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Re: Economics

Post by mcommini » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:29 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:15 am

You shouldn't be convinced. I'd guarantee there is more at play than coronavirus. There has to be, because a lot of it was happening before the pandemic ever hit and it probably is cyclical to an extent. The problem is this shutdown is going to change the playing field yet again.

As to the white collar divide, it is a deficiency in governmental policy and hard to talk about without getting political so I'll stay a mile away...but other groups were advanced to the detriment of the countryside. Nobody gives a s*** about the underperforming rural school or the fact that more rural whites than urban blacks are on the dole. Where we idolize urban speech patterns, rural speech patterns ensure interview failure, urban drug use is of primary concern, rural drug use isn't worth the time, etc.
As regards the speech patterns, it's not even down to a rural/urban divide. Historically white urban blue collar speech patterns would lead to interview failure as well- think of how little one hears a Boston "townie" or a Chicago accent such as used by the Blues Brothers in a white collar environment. Those that make it to college soon learn to drop their native speech patterns and adopt speaking the same way as everyone else.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." --TH White

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hugodrax
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Re: Economics

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:41 pm

mcommini wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:29 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:15 am

You shouldn't be convinced. I'd guarantee there is more at play than coronavirus. There has to be, because a lot of it was happening before the pandemic ever hit and it probably is cyclical to an extent. The problem is this shutdown is going to change the playing field yet again.

As to the white collar divide, it is a deficiency in governmental policy and hard to talk about without getting political so I'll stay a mile away...but other groups were advanced to the detriment of the countryside. Nobody gives a s*** about the underperforming rural school or the fact that more rural whites than urban blacks are on the dole. Where we idolize urban speech patterns, rural speech patterns ensure interview failure, urban drug use is of primary concern, rural drug use isn't worth the time, etc.
As regards the speech patterns, it's not even down to a rural/urban divide. Historically white urban blue collar speech patterns would lead to interview failure as well- think of how little one hears a Boston "townie" or a Chicago accent such as used by the Blues Brothers in a white collar environment. Those that make it to college soon learn to drop their native speech patterns and adopt speaking the same way as everyone else.
True enough. Didnt think of urban working class whites. Not many of them left here...they fled the city a while ago.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

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mcommini
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Re: Economics

Post by mcommini » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:08 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:41 pm
mcommini wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:29 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:15 am

You shouldn't be convinced. I'd guarantee there is more at play than coronavirus. There has to be, because a lot of it was happening before the pandemic ever hit and it probably is cyclical to an extent. The problem is this shutdown is going to change the playing field yet again.

As to the white collar divide, it is a deficiency in governmental policy and hard to talk about without getting political so I'll stay a mile away...but other groups were advanced to the detriment of the countryside. Nobody gives a s*** about the underperforming rural school or the fact that more rural whites than urban blacks are on the dole. Where we idolize urban speech patterns, rural speech patterns ensure interview failure, urban drug use is of primary concern, rural drug use isn't worth the time, etc.
As regards the speech patterns, it's not even down to a rural/urban divide. Historically white urban blue collar speech patterns would lead to interview failure as well- think of how little one hears a Boston "townie" or a Chicago accent such as used by the Blues Brothers in a white collar environment. Those that make it to college soon learn to drop their native speech patterns and adopt speaking the same way as everyone else.
True enough. Didnt think of urban working class whites. Not many of them left here...they fled the city a while ago.
They still exist in Chicago (or did when I lived there 10 years ago) - though they are suffering the effects of gentrification much the same as other low-income communities, a few pockets of neighborhoods have withstood attempted inroads by the avocado toast set. Archie Bunker is still alive and well around those parts (complete with all the positive and negative stereotypes associated with the character- nice guys to grab a beer with, but I never heard a certain racial epithet dropped so much in my entire life growing up, about half of which was in the South and half of that in the rural South).

Not many of their kids are looking to go to college- instead they end up as little gang-bangers with the appropriated rap-video uniform while insisting on a racial superiority to the other gangs due to an imagined descent from the glory days of Capone and Bugsy Moran. Those that don't stay in jail end up working with their parents in construction or as mechanics. The kids were not so nice to grab a beer with.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." --TH White

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hugodrax
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Re: Economics

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:11 pm

mcommini wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:08 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:41 pm
mcommini wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:29 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:15 am

You shouldn't be convinced. I'd guarantee there is more at play than coronavirus. There has to be, because a lot of it was happening before the pandemic ever hit and it probably is cyclical to an extent. The problem is this shutdown is going to change the playing field yet again.

As to the white collar divide, it is a deficiency in governmental policy and hard to talk about without getting political so I'll stay a mile away...but other groups were advanced to the detriment of the countryside. Nobody gives a s*** about the underperforming rural school or the fact that more rural whites than urban blacks are on the dole. Where we idolize urban speech patterns, rural speech patterns ensure interview failure, urban drug use is of primary concern, rural drug use isn't worth the time, etc.
As regards the speech patterns, it's not even down to a rural/urban divide. Historically white urban blue collar speech patterns would lead to interview failure as well- think of how little one hears a Boston "townie" or a Chicago accent such as used by the Blues Brothers in a white collar environment. Those that make it to college soon learn to drop their native speech patterns and adopt speaking the same way as everyone else.
True enough. Didnt think of urban working class whites. Not many of them left here...they fled the city a while ago.
They still exist in Chicago (or did when I lived there 10 years ago) - though they are suffering the effects of gentrification much the same as other low-income communities, a few pockets of neighborhoods have withstood attempted inroads by the avocado toast set. Archie Bunker is still alive and well around those parts (complete with all the positive and negative stereotypes associated with the character- nice guys to grab a beer with, but I never heard a certain racial epithet dropped so much in my entire life growing up, about half of which was in the South and half of that in the rural South).

Not many of their kids are looking to go to college- instead they end up as little gang-bangers with the appropriated rap-video uniform while insisting on a racial superiority to the other gangs due to an imagined descent from the glory days of Capone and Bugsy Moran. Those that don't stay in jail end up working with their parents in construction or as mechanics. The kids were not so nice to grab a beer with.
So you like them and would help raise them up the social ladder, then?
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

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Re: Economics

Post by mcommini » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:36 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:11 pm
mcommini wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:08 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:41 pm
mcommini wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:29 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:15 am

You shouldn't be convinced. I'd guarantee there is more at play than coronavirus. There has to be, because a lot of it was happening before the pandemic ever hit and it probably is cyclical to an extent. The problem is this shutdown is going to change the playing field yet again.

As to the white collar divide, it is a deficiency in governmental policy and hard to talk about without getting political so I'll stay a mile away...but other groups were advanced to the detriment of the countryside. Nobody gives a s*** about the underperforming rural school or the fact that more rural whites than urban blacks are on the dole. Where we idolize urban speech patterns, rural speech patterns ensure interview failure, urban drug use is of primary concern, rural drug use isn't worth the time, etc.
As regards the speech patterns, it's not even down to a rural/urban divide. Historically white urban blue collar speech patterns would lead to interview failure as well- think of how little one hears a Boston "townie" or a Chicago accent such as used by the Blues Brothers in a white collar environment. Those that make it to college soon learn to drop their native speech patterns and adopt speaking the same way as everyone else.
True enough. Didnt think of urban working class whites. Not many of them left here...they fled the city a while ago.
They still exist in Chicago (or did when I lived there 10 years ago) - though they are suffering the effects of gentrification much the same as other low-income communities, a few pockets of neighborhoods have withstood attempted inroads by the avocado toast set. Archie Bunker is still alive and well around those parts (complete with all the positive and negative stereotypes associated with the character- nice guys to grab a beer with, but I never heard a certain racial epithet dropped so much in my entire life growing up, about half of which was in the South and half of that in the rural South).

Not many of their kids are looking to go to college- instead they end up as little gang-bangers with the appropriated rap-video uniform while insisting on a racial superiority to the other gangs due to an imagined descent from the glory days of Capone and Bugsy Moran. Those that don't stay in jail end up working with their parents in construction or as mechanics. The kids were not so nice to grab a beer with.
So you like them and would help raise them up the social ladder, then?
A tech call from an elderly fellow parishioner trying to access the parish youtube caused CPS to log me out and ate my long reply :D

To sum- generally yes. I pretty much like everyone and am willing to help whoever in the ways that they need help. That said, I know plenty of rural and blue collar people who would shoot you as soon as look at you were you to suggest that type of help, and am wary, bullets being my one fatal weakness.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." --TH White

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hugodrax
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Re: Economics

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:56 pm

mcommini wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:36 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:11 pm
mcommini wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:08 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:41 pm
mcommini wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:29 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:15 am

You shouldn't be convinced. I'd guarantee there is more at play than coronavirus. There has to be, because a lot of it was happening before the pandemic ever hit and it probably is cyclical to an extent. The problem is this shutdown is going to change the playing field yet again.

As to the white collar divide, it is a deficiency in governmental policy and hard to talk about without getting political so I'll stay a mile away...but other groups were advanced to the detriment of the countryside. Nobody gives a s*** about the underperforming rural school or the fact that more rural whites than urban blacks are on the dole. Where we idolize urban speech patterns, rural speech patterns ensure interview failure, urban drug use is of primary concern, rural drug use isn't worth the time, etc.
As regards the speech patterns, it's not even down to a rural/urban divide. Historically white urban blue collar speech patterns would lead to interview failure as well- think of how little one hears a Boston "townie" or a Chicago accent such as used by the Blues Brothers in a white collar environment. Those that make it to college soon learn to drop their native speech patterns and adopt speaking the same way as everyone else.
True enough. Didnt think of urban working class whites. Not many of them left here...they fled the city a while ago.
They still exist in Chicago (or did when I lived there 10 years ago) - though they are suffering the effects of gentrification much the same as other low-income communities, a few pockets of neighborhoods have withstood attempted inroads by the avocado toast set. Archie Bunker is still alive and well around those parts (complete with all the positive and negative stereotypes associated with the character- nice guys to grab a beer with, but I never heard a certain racial epithet dropped so much in my entire life growing up, about half of which was in the South and half of that in the rural South).

Not many of their kids are looking to go to college- instead they end up as little gang-bangers with the appropriated rap-video uniform while insisting on a racial superiority to the other gangs due to an imagined descent from the glory days of Capone and Bugsy Moran. Those that don't stay in jail end up working with their parents in construction or as mechanics. The kids were not so nice to grab a beer with.
So you like them and would help raise them up the social ladder, then?
A tech call from an elderly fellow parishioner trying to access the parish youtube caused CPS to log me out and ate my long reply :D

To sum- generally yes. I pretty much like everyone and am willing to help whoever in the ways that they need help. That said, I know plenty of rural and blue collar people who would shoot you as soon as look at you were you to suggest that type of help, and am wary, bullets being my one fatal weakness.
Lol!

Oh, heck yes. I grew up in the countryside. There are great people and there are turds. The lifted pickup was the general sign, especially if accompanied by any combination of Confederate battle flag, Calvin peeing on something, or a No Fat Chicks bumper sticker. Live in a city now, but I'd imagine it's pretty much the same. I'm not suggesting knocking on doors. I can see it now:

"Sir, would you like your children to escape this hovel? I can help!" immediately followed by the sounds of a shotgun racking and the release of hounds.

N.B. I've noticed when I get logged out, once I've logged in I can click back a couple of pages to my eaten reply and find it again.

Also, much kudos for helping elderly parishioner. Of such are the Kingdom of Heaven made.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

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Re: Economics

Post by wosbald » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:30 am

+JMJ+

Who Will Prosper After the Plague? [In-Depth, Analysis]
Image
Agricultural laborers spray against insects and weeds inside the orchards of a fruit farm in Mesa, California. In this time of the COVID-19 pandemic, agricultural workers have become essential workers in the race to maintain America’s food supply while simultaneously staying healthy. (BRENT STIRTON/GETTY IMAGES)

The tech sector and the managerial class will get richer, while the rest of us become their serfs.

[…]

Plagues, such as in the 14th century, may have wiped out as much as one third of Europe’s population, and devastated great Renaissance trading cities. In the Middle Ages, the wealthy sought safety in their country estates, much like the affluent now fleeing major European and American cities. Diets and survival rates varied enormously between the upper and lower classes. As one 14th-century observer noted, the plague “attacked especially the meaner sort and common people — seldom the magnates.”

But the wreckage also created new opportunities for those left standing. Abandoned tracts of land could be consolidated by rich nobles, or, in some cases, enterprising peasants, who took advantage of sudden opportunities to buy property or use chronic labor shortages to demand higher wages. “In an age where social conditions were considered fixed,” historian Barbara Tuchman has suggested, the new adjustments seemed “revolutionary.”

What might such “revolutionary” changes look like in our post-plague society? In the immediate future the monied classes in America will take a big hit, as their stock portfolios shrink, both acquisitions and new IPOs get sidetracked and the value of their properties drop. But vast opportunities for tremendous profit available to those with the financial wherewithal to absorb the initial shocks and capitalize on the disruption they cause. As in 2016, politicians in both parties have worked hard in the new stimulus to get breaks for their wealthy constituents, whether they are big retail chains, rich California taxpayers, or, in some cases, themselves.

Over time, the crisis is likely to further bolster the global oligarchal class. The wealthiest 1% already own as much as 50% of the world’s assets, and according to a recent British parliamentary study, by 2030, will expand their share to two-thirds of the world’s wealth with the biggest gains overwhelmingly concentrated at the top 0.01%.

[…]

Historically, pandemics have tended to spark class conflict. The plague-ravaged landscape of medieval Europe opened the door to numerous “peasant rebellions.” This in turn led the aristocracy and the church to restrict the movements of peasants to limit their ability to use the new depopulated countryside to their own advantage. Attempts to constrain the ambitions of the commoners often led to open revolts — including against the church and the aristocracy.

As the impact of the pandemic ripples through the economy, “the gulf between the knowledge economy and the gig economy” suggests the Toronto Globe and Mail’s John Ibbitson, will wither. As steady and well-paying jobs disappear, the demands for an ever more extensive welfare state, funded by the upper classes, will multiply.

Like their counterparts in the late 19th century, the lower-class workforce will demand changes. We already see this in the protests by workers at Instacart delivery service, and in Amazon warehouse workers concerned about limited health insurance, low wages, and exposure to the virus.

As the virus threatens to concentrate wealth and power even more, there’s likely to be some sort of reckoning, including from the increasingly hard-pressed yeomanry.

In the years before the great working-class rebellions of the mid-19th century, Alexis de Tocqueville warned that the ruling orders were “sleeping on a volcano.” The same might be seen now as well, with contagion pushing the lava into the streets, and causing new disruptions on a scale of which we can’t predict.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: Economics

Post by durangopipe » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:01 am

As the virus threatens to concentrate wealth and power even more, there’s likely to be some sort of reckoning, including from the increasingly hard-pressed yeomanry.
The reckoning is The Zombie Apocalypse!

Image

The horror.
The horror.
. . . be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32 (NKJV)

The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.. J.R.R. Tolkien

2017 Morley - Outstanding BRATASS of the Year

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Re: Economics

Post by hugodrax » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:17 am

durangopipe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:01 am
As the virus threatens to concentrate wealth and power even more, there’s likely to be some sort of reckoning, including from the increasingly hard-pressed yeomanry.
The reckoning is The Zombie Apocalypse!

Image

The horror.
The horror.
You do realize that no matter which side wins, the university professors are always the first ones up against the wall, right?

Not by me, of course. I'm apolitical and just want to bind a certain Cleveland machinist to my lands. :D
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

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Re: Economics

Post by durangopipe » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:20 am

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:17 am
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:01 am
As the virus threatens to concentrate wealth and power even more, there’s likely to be some sort of reckoning, including from the increasingly hard-pressed yeomanry.
The reckoning is The Zombie Apocalypse!

Image

The horror.
The horror.
You do realize that no matter which side wins, the university professors are always the first ones up against the wall, right?

Not by me, of course. I'm apolitical and just want to bind a certain Cleveland machinist to my lands. :D
I hadn’t actually intended that as a political statement - just thought it funny how much this photograph looks like scenes from a zombie apocalypse movie.

But yes, college professors ...

Always lined up against the wall and shot first during any revolution, left-wing revolution, right-wing revolution, both wings, no wings: shot.

It’s why I wear Kevlar underwear whenever I leave the house. That, and a trucker cap that says, “I’m not a real professor. I only play one on campus. ”
. . . be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32 (NKJV)

The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.. J.R.R. Tolkien

2017 Morley - Outstanding BRATASS of the Year

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durangopipe
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Re: Economics

Post by durangopipe » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:23 am

durangopipe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:20 am
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:17 am
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:01 am
As the virus threatens to concentrate wealth and power even more, there’s likely to be some sort of reckoning, including from the increasingly hard-pressed yeomanry.
The reckoning is The Zombie Apocalypse!

Image

The horror.
The horror.
You do realize that no matter which side wins, the university professors are always the first ones up against the wall, right?

Not by me, of course. I'm apolitical and just want to bind a certain Cleveland machinist to my lands. :D
I hadn’t actually intended that as a political statement - just thought it funny how much this photograph looks like scenes from a zombie apocalypse movie.

But yes, college professors ...

Always lined up against the wall and shot first during any revolution, left-wing revolution, right-wing revolution, both wings, no wings: shot.

It’s why I wear Kevlar underwear whenever I leave the house. That, and a trucker cap that says, “I’m not a real professor. I only play one on campus. ”
Can’t be too careful these days.
. . . be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32 (NKJV)

The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.. J.R.R. Tolkien

2017 Morley - Outstanding BRATASS of the Year

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wosbald
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Re: Economics

Post by wosbald » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:23 am

+JMJ+
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:20 am
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:17 am
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:01 am
As the virus threatens to concentrate wealth and power even more, there’s likely to be some sort of reckoning, including from the increasingly hard-pressed yeomanry.
The reckoning is The Zombie Apocalypse!

Image

The horror.
The horror.
You do realize that no matter which side wins, the university professors are always the first ones up against the wall, right?

Not by me, of course. I'm apolitical and just want to bind a certain Cleveland machinist to my lands. :D
I hadn’t actually intended that as a political statement - just thought it funny how much this photograph looks like scenes from a zombie apocalypse movie.

But yes, college professors ...

Always lined up against the wall and shot first during any revolution, left-wing revolution, right-wing revolution, both wings, no wings: shot.

It’s why I wear Kevlar underwear whenever I leave the house. That, and a trucker cap that says, “I’m not a real professor. I only play one on campus.”
OTOH, you could always pull a Heidegger.

:chili:

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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hugodrax
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Re: Economics

Post by hugodrax » Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:58 am

durangopipe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:20 am
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:17 am
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:01 am
As the virus threatens to concentrate wealth and power even more, there’s likely to be some sort of reckoning, including from the increasingly hard-pressed yeomanry.
The reckoning is The Zombie Apocalypse!

Image

The horror.
The horror.
You do realize that no matter which side wins, the university professors are always the first ones up against the wall, right?

Not by me, of course. I'm apolitical and just want to bind a certain Cleveland machinist to my lands. :D
I hadn’t actually intended that as a political statement - just thought it funny how much this photograph looks like scenes from a zombie apocalypse movie.

But yes, college professors ...

Always lined up against the wall and shot first during any revolution, left-wing revolution, right-wing revolution, both wings, no wings: shot.

It’s why I wear Kevlar underwear whenever I leave the house. That, and a trucker cap that says, “I’m not a real professor. I only play one on campus. ”
Oh, I didnt think it was very political. I was just warning you to be careful...they're agitating out there.

I'll tell them you're a retired fishing guide if you tell them I'm a tobacconist. :lol:
Last edited by hugodrax on Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

User avatar
durangopipe
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Re: Economics

Post by durangopipe » Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:02 am

wosbald wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:23 am
+JMJ+
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:20 am
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:17 am
durangopipe wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:01 am
As the virus threatens to concentrate wealth and power even more, there’s likely to be some sort of reckoning, including from the increasingly hard-pressed yeomanry.
The reckoning is The Zombie Apocalypse!

Image

The horror.
The horror.
You do realize that no matter which side wins, the university professors are always the first ones up against the wall, right?

Not by me, of course. I'm apolitical and just want to bind a certain Cleveland machinist to my lands. :D
I hadn’t actually intended that as a political statement - just thought it funny how much this photograph looks like scenes from a zombie apocalypse movie.

But yes, college professors ...

Always lined up against the wall and shot first during any revolution, left-wing revolution, right-wing revolution, both wings, no wings: shot.

It’s why I wear Kevlar underwear whenever I leave the house. That, and a trucker cap that says, “I’m not a real professor. I only play one on campus.”
OTOH, you could always pull a Heidegger.

:chili:
Yeah.
Pathetic, dishonorable - but then, so was the bulk of his philosophy.

I remember trying to convince a good friend, philosophy prof. where I teach (analytic philosopher) that Heidegger should not be dismissedout of hand. He literally screamed at me, “Name one good thing that ever came out of phenomenology!”

I’d never seen him raise his voice before.

I had another dear friend who was a prominent Heidegger scholar (Dr. Michael Zimmerman, then at Tulane) who was in total denial about Heidegger’s Nazi sympathizing and academic opportunism until late in his career when he could no longer escape the truth.

It damn near destroyed him.

Subsequent to that change of heart he wrote, “Heidegger’s Confrontation with Modernity,” where, after decades of defending Heidegger, he finally allowed the philosopher’s feet of clay to show, if only a little.

Nope. Not gonna pull a Heidegger here.
I’d prefer to be shot.
. . . be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32 (NKJV)

The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.. J.R.R. Tolkien

2017 Morley - Outstanding BRATASS of the Year

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