What the hell, Wisconsin?

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TNLawPiper
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Post by TNLawPiper » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:28 pm

donkeymule wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:Where was all of this outrage when the Tea Party was protesting and disrupting town hall meetings? That was free speech, right? So is this.
You are a Tea Party supporter?
I think you know the answer to that one!

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Post by Roadmaster » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:37 pm

donkeymule wrote: The problem is that collective bargaining directly correlates to the financial situation which is not sustainable. I dont support the unions.

This is what is not sustainable:


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Post by Briar_Bowl » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:41 am

As a u*ion man myself, I support their protest. If not for my u*ion & the collective bargaining process, I wouldn't be able to make a descent wage in my line of work. I know what my non-U***n counterparts are making on average, and it's really quite sad. :?
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Post by Roadmaster » Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:31 am

Briar_Bowl wrote:As a u*ion man myself, I support their protest. If not for my u*ion & the collective bargaining process, I wouldn't be able to make a descent wage in my line of work. I know what my non-U***n counterparts are making on average, and it's really quite sad. :?
I'm happy you make a decent wage, you are in a hazardous, physically demanding line of work. The wall street cats rob us blind and receive a bonus rather then prison, the tax rate has been reduced for the richest, wages for the working man have been dropping in buying power for many years and the uni*ns are the problem?
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Post by Kerdy » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:25 am

darthsaturn wrote:I have not been keeping up with what is going on in detail. I am just amazed that no one seems to bat an eye that law makers have up and left their posts.
Because they are liberals. It's ok as long as you are not conservative.
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Post by Kerdy » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:27 am

TNLawPiper wrote:Come on, folks. This is not Egypt or Libya, and such a statement should offend anyone who understands what the Egyptians and Libyans were demonstrating against.
It should not offend anyone. This protesting stuff is global. An epidemic. Unproductive and dangerous...especially here, when there is nothing to support them acting this way.

Pay attention my friend or one day you will look around and think to yourself..."How did this happen?"
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Post by Kerdy » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:27 am

TNLawPiper wrote:Where was all of this outrage when the Tea Party was protesting and disrupting town hall meetings?
Disrupting town hall meetings? :lol:
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

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Post by Kerdy » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:29 am

Roadmaster wrote:
donkeymule wrote: The problem is that collective bargaining directly correlates to the financial situation which is not sustainable. I dont support the unions.

This is what is not sustainable:


Image


The middle class is dying. We are on our way to becoming a 3rd world country. If that happens abortion legal or otherwise is going to rise along with a whole laundry list of social ills.
The middle class IS dying, but it is not because of the rich. It's because of the Nanny State with the poor.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:43 am

Kerdy wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:Come on, folks. This is not Egypt or Libya, and such a statement should offend anyone who understands what the Egyptians and Libyans were demonstrating against.
It should not offend anyone. This protesting stuff is global. An epidemic. Unproductive and dangerous...especially here, when there is nothing to support them acting this way.

Pay attention my friend or one day you will look around and think to yourself..."How did this happen?"
The protests in the Middle East are part of a revolution against authoritarian rulers. For better or for worse, those populations want democratic representation, which they don't have. Some of them want greater religious rule, and some of them simply want to have a say in their government. When we think about America's founding fathers doing it, we place our hands over our hearts and feel the patriotism welling up inside of us, so it's hypocritical for us to say that they don't deserve democracy or that they're wrong for fighting for it.

In Wisconsin, they're publicly advocating for their beliefs in a way that is meant to convey the actual scope of the effects of the legislation. That is what protests are meant to do. Protesting via the ballot box is often ineffective and untimely, so they are making their voices heard in the public square. Again, there was no outrage about the protesting when the Tea Party was disrupting town hall meetings.

Conflating the two events belittles the struggle for democracy and human rights, and it evokes those feelings I have when someone calls President Obama a tyrant or equates our rights to that of the British Empire prior to the American revolution: "Should I <redacted_emoji> or :lol: ?"

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Post by Roadmaster » Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:50 am

Kerdy wrote:
The middle class IS dying, but it is not because of the rich. It's because of the Nanny State with the poor.
The nanny state doesn't appear to be hurting the rich who are on top who is effective in driving a wedge between the middle class. As long as we are looking at each other we are not watching them.
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Post by Del » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:02 am

Roadmaster wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
The middle class IS dying, but it is not because of the rich. It's because of the Nanny State with the poor.
The nanny state doesn't appear to be hurting the rich who are on top who is effective in driving a wedge between the middle class. As long as we are looking at each other we are not watching them.
What we have is Big Government (with its enthusiasm for Socialism) and Big Business (with its enthusiasm for Capitalism). The two are tightly bonded in a stable coalition that has no name.... Hillaire Belloc called it the Servile State.

Essentially, our society has become a weak middle class of wage slaves. Gov't education teaches us how to be good employees, so we can get a "good job," one with "benefits." Few people can even imagine there is any other way.
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Post by Cleon » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:02 am

darthsaturn wrote:I have not been keeping up with what is going on in detail. I am just amazed that no one seems to bat an eye that law makers have up and left their posts. That's like one of my employees not liking the way I run my business and walks out, only they don't still get paid for it...
This is my big beef with the whole thing. Some of the house reps from Indiana up and ran too. My elected rep was one of them!!!:x I can't even get a hold of him. I tried to call his office, but all I got was a disconnect tone. I do not support him running from his duties to all his constituents. How can he hear about it from me (one of his constituents) if he's exiled himself and disconnected his phone? This was a guy that I used to respect a lot. He was my high school chemistry teacher. I held him in high regard.

BTW, it is my understanding that in Indiana the party is picking up the tab for their expenses etc as they are away and not the state.
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Post by FredS » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:12 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:Come on, folks. This is not Egypt or Libya, and such a statement should offend anyone who understands what the Egyptians and Libyans were demonstrating against.
It should not offend anyone. This protesting stuff is global. An epidemic. Unproductive and dangerous...especially here, when there is nothing to support them acting this way.

Pay attention my friend or one day you will look around and think to yourself..."How did this happen?"
The protests in the Middle East are part of a revolution against authoritarian rulers. For better or for worse, those populations want democratic representation, which they don't have. Some of them want greater religious rule, and some of them simply want to have a say in their government. When we think about America's founding fathers doing it, we place our hands over our hearts and feel the patriotism welling up inside of us, so it's hypocritical for us to say that they don't deserve democracy or that they're wrong for fighting for it.

In Wisconsin, they're publicly advocating for their beliefs in a way that is meant to convey the actual scope of the effects of the legislation. That is what protests are meant to do. Protesting via the ballot box is often ineffective and untimely, so they are making their voices heard in the public square. Again, there was no outrage about the protesting when the Tea Party was disrupting town hall meetings.

Conflating the two events belittles the struggle for democracy and human rights, and it evokes those feelings I have when someone calls President Obama a tyrant or equates our rights to that of the British Empire prior to the American revolution: "Should I <redacted_emoji> or :lol: ?"
I agree with TNLP: The current protests in WI are not like what's going on the mid-east. They more closely resemble the recent protests in Europe over similar governmental cuts. For that reason, I expect domestic protests to increase and spread across the country as more and more local governments make cuts. There's just not enough money to give everyone the slice they're accustomed to. I trust my elected representatives to make the cuts fairly and effectively. The sickening thing about WI is that the Democratic reps walked out on their jobs and their constituents, rather than make hard choices. They just quit. I've worked with people like that before - when the work gets hard, or the day goes long, they just get frazzled and quit. They don't even have the balls to support their position or join the protesters. Do they expect anyone will ever respect them again?

Another sickening thing is that over the last two years, the feds have pissed billions (maybe trillions, who knows) of stimulus money away. All that spending has done very little to improve our situation. It's just wasted, gone, poof!
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Post by Roadmaster » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:39 am

I not trying to say the Dems and unions are not without blame. There are people sucking the government teat that are more than able to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. What worries me is big business can now contribute near unlimited funds to politicians and political parties. The Dems and unions, warts and all, is the only voice the working class has. If the Koch Bros and their kind succee in killing off the unions, which is the issue here, we will soon have no middle class at all. Then we will have a revolution like the one in Egypt.
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Post by 7formy1911 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:05 am

Roadmaster wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
The middle class IS dying, but it is not because of the rich. It's because of the Nanny State with the poor.
The nanny state doesn't appear to be hurting the rich who are on top who is effective in driving a wedge between the middle class. As long as we are looking at each other we are not watching them.
The government is the driving force behind monopolies and greed. Corporations can only consolidate power and wealth with the government being complicit. Unfettered free market capitalism evens the playing field. Look at GM, Fannie, Freddie... only possible with government intervention and putting rules in place that only help them. Allow freedom in the market place and you will find freedom in our daily choices.

I'm also horribly sickened with the so called police officers in Madison. Being in LE these hippies would have been arrested commensurate with their offense. Between the drug use, battery and other offenses they have committed the jail stuff would have been working over time.

The USA is NOT a democracy and we are a representative republic. When that breaks down this great experiment known as the USA will perish. We are on the precipice of tipping towards chaos or admitting our dysfunction and correcting it both in the government and in our own lives.
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Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:30 am

7formy1911 wrote:The government is the driving force behind monopolies and greed. Corporations can only consolidate power and wealth with the government being complicit. Unfettered free market capitalism evens the playing field. Look at GM, Fannie, Freddie... only possible with government intervention and putting rules in place that only help them. Allow freedom in the market place and you will find freedom in our daily choices.
As far as monopolies go, this is the case in some circumstances, but monopolies and oligopolies form when the government ignores the industry, as well. The companies competing against Standard Oil, US Steel, and Microsoft weren't driven out of the market by the government. Corporations have been consolidating power and wealth via both free-market and anti-competitive practices since our government was still in its relative infancy.

But greed? Come on, 7. Greed has been around for all of human history -- long before anything even looking like a government was formed. If anything, governments typically step in to correct the adverse effects caused by greed.

Governments often overreach, and they sometimes hurt the free market by hindering competition, but they're not driving monopolies or greed.

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Seems to me

Post by Briarpatch » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:58 am

Could it not be said that the Democrat state senators have abandoned their offices by refusing to participate?

Then I say appoint new ones and get on with the thing.

Walker is making a huge mistake by allowing this to drag on.
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Post by Del » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:00 am

Roadmaster wrote:I not trying to say the Dems and unions are not without blame. There are people sucking the government teat that are more than able to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. What worries me is big business can now contribute near unlimited funds to politicians and political parties. The Dems and unions, warts and all, is the only voice the working class has. If the Koch Bros and their kind succee in killing off the unions, which is the issue here, we will soon have no middle class at all. Then we will have a revolution like the one in Egypt.
Madison has a lot of fervent Democrats. They can't figure out what happened in the November election -- I've had several people claim that "Big Business bought this election with a bunch of ad campaigns and lies."

Which offends the heck out of me, because I don't think Americans are that stupid.

Anyhow, the local Democrats think that elections can be bought.... so they want lots of Uni0n dues and donations to get more Democrats elected.

The kerfluffle in Wisconsin is not about workers rights at all. It is about a Republican governor, trying to defund the Uni0n political machine. On the other side, the Uni0n Democrats are trying to stir up opposition to the governor, and make him look bad if they can.

Big Business is out of the loop and doesn't care, one way or the other.
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Re: Seems to me

Post by Roadmaster » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:05 am

Briarpatch wrote:Could it not be said that the Democrat state senators have abandoned their offices by refusing to participate?

Then I say appoint new ones and get on with the thing.

Walker is making a huge mistake by allowing this to drag on.
In your view would we be better off if had only one party the Repubican Party?
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Post by Roadmaster » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:11 am

Del wrote:I've had several people claim that "Big Business bought this election with a bunch of ad campaigns and lies."

Which offends the heck out of me, because I don't think Americans are that stupid.
That's what I think, if the ads didn't work millions of dollars wouldn't be spent on them.
Last edited by Roadmaster on Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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