The Evolution Thread

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The Evolution Thread

Post by infidel » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:47 am

Here you go, Kerdy :-)

To avoid further polluting The Orthodox Thread or any other thread, let us contain dicsussions of Evolution/Darwinism here.
Genesis 1:24 wrote:And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Is this not what Darwinian evolution also teaches? Each living thing produces offspring of its own kind. Find me an evolutionary scientist who says otherwise.
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by tuttle » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:16 am

infidel wrote:Here you go, Kerdy :-)

To avoid further polluting The Orthodox Thread or any other thread, let us contain dicsussions of Evolution/Darwinism here.
Genesis 1:24 wrote:And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Is this not what Darwinian evolution also teaches? Each living thing produces offspring of its own kind. Find me an evolutionary scientist who says otherwise.
Well I know some evolutionary scientists who say that dinosaurs evolved into birds... last I checked birds and reptiles are not of the "own" kind.

:wink:
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by Thunktank » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:21 am

tuttle wrote:
infidel wrote:Here you go, Kerdy :-)

To avoid further polluting The Orthodox Thread or any other thread, let us contain dicsussions of Evolution/Darwinism here.
Genesis 1:24 wrote:And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Is this not what Darwinian evolution also teaches? Each living thing produces offspring of its own kind. Find me an evolutionary scientist who says otherwise.
Well I know some evolutionary scientists who say that dinosaurs evolved into birds... last I checked birds and reptiles are not of the "own" kind.

:wink:
See, there it is again. Another misconception about evolution. A popular misconception that keeps coming up yet never seems to be corrected by those who insist upon keeping it.
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by tuttle » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:28 am

Thunktank wrote:
tuttle wrote:
infidel wrote:Here you go, Kerdy :-)

To avoid further polluting The Orthodox Thread or any other thread, let us contain dicsussions of Evolution/Darwinism here.
Genesis 1:24 wrote:And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Is this not what Darwinian evolution also teaches? Each living thing produces offspring of its own kind. Find me an evolutionary scientist who says otherwise.
Well I know some evolutionary scientists who say that dinosaurs evolved into birds... last I checked birds and reptiles are not of the "own" kind.

:wink:
See, there it is again. Another misconception about evolution. A popular misconception that keeps coming up yet never seems to be corrected by those who insist upon keeping it.
mind clarifying?
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by infidel » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:00 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
tuttle wrote:
infidel wrote:Here you go, Kerdy :-)

To avoid further polluting The Orthodox Thread or any other thread, let us contain dicsussions of Evolution/Darwinism here.
Genesis 1:24 wrote:And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Is this not what Darwinian evolution also teaches? Each living thing produces offspring of its own kind. Find me an evolutionary scientist who says otherwise.
Well I know some evolutionary scientists who say that dinosaurs evolved into birds... last I checked birds and reptiles are not of the "own" kind.

:wink:
See, there it is again. Another misconception about evolution. A popular misconception that keeps coming up yet never seems to be corrected by those who insist upon keeping it.
mind clarifying?
You keep thinking of it as though one day a bird hatched out of a dinosaur egg. You're thinking of "kinds" as fixed, eternal categories. Evolution merely says that "kinds" are more fluid.
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Post by infidel » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:24 pm

Synchronicity from today's XKCD: http://xkcd.com/867/

Be sure to read the mouse-over text on the image ;-)
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Post by Thunktank » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:28 pm

We can argue about science and it's evolutionary theory all day long but until our theology and philosophies come to agreement we will get no where because too much rides on that in this crowd around here.

There's a great dread among those who take a literal/historical view of Genesis, especially among some Reformed Protestants that if any other view is considered their entire theological framework begins to crumble and soon people will start ordaining practicing homosexuals and other outrageous things. Their particular interpretation of the Bible is their Tradition and primary source of orthodoxy. To go against that is unquestionable so anything that challanges that must be wrong and any measures to discredit said orthodoxy is good, including denial of accurate scientific data. In some way, evolution must be undermined by such people who hold to such a form of orthodoxy. That's all there is to it. It's a theological issue, not a scientific one.

Having said that, I hesitate to argue with such people in fear that they will end up worse off then they were before and even become athiest or unbelievers over this. There is little harm to their souls if they want to believe in a litteral 6 six day creation account 6,000 years ago so why must I try and undermine them and try and make them question their faith in such ways when I cannot be sure to help them to a better place or that they would even try and find such help from others like me who see things a bit different. Plus I'm not 100% convinced that I'm right in my position. I don't believe science has all the answers and it's not my primary source of truth.

For the unbelievers on CPS who have struggled with Christians who appear to defy logic to the unbelievers in these regards some of us have given you guys more than enough hope that you may love your science and love Jesus even more. For those of you who insist on not believing in God and use science to justify your position, I say that you are far worse off than the Fundamentalists.

That is all.
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by FredS » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:35 pm

infidel wrote:You keep thinking of it as though one day a bird hatched out of a dinosaur egg. You're thinking of "kinds" as fixed, eternal categories. Evolution merely says that "kinds" are more fluid.
So "kind" can mean entirely different species? We've never seen proof that a poodle can hatch a spaniel, let alone that a poodle can hatch a cat
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by tuttle » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:19 pm

FredS wrote:
infidel wrote:You keep thinking of it as though one day a bird hatched out of a dinosaur egg. You're thinking of "kinds" as fixed, eternal categories. Evolution merely says that "kinds" are more fluid.
So "kind" can mean entirely different species? We've never seen proof that a poodle can hatch a spaniel, let alone that a poodle can hatch a cat
Of course we've never seen it Fred. But give it a million or so years and it's quite possible that that poodle will fluidly change it's kind into a different but same kind of poodle that is now an elephant.
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by Onyx » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:12 pm

FredS wrote:
infidel wrote:You keep thinking of it as though one day a bird hatched out of a dinosaur egg. You're thinking of "kinds" as fixed, eternal categories. Evolution merely says that "kinds" are more fluid.
So "kind" can mean entirely different species? We've never seen proof that a poodle can hatch a spaniel, let alone that a poodle can hatch a cat
There is (perhaps inadvertently) some significant insight in your question. Both poodles and spaniels descend from wolves. When did the wolf become a poodle? Could you name the generation when it was suddenly a poodle? I couldn't. I guess there was a point when someone named it - but that was an arbitrary decision... the dog breeder could have named the new breed a generation later, or earlier had he chosen to.

Now you might rightly suggest that a dog of any breed is still of the same "kind" as the wolf ancestor. But you'd have to concede Infidel's point that the wolf "kind" is today a little different than it was even 1000 years ago. Every pup born has been after its own kind. But the kind itself has been flexing significantly such that now a Chihuahua might struggle to breed with a wolf or a Great Dane. At what time will we call them a different species? It's an arbitrary choice.

Don't be side-tracked by the involvement of humans in shaping the breeding of dogs. From the dog's point of view, that is just selective pressure with some adjusted priorities. It may move faster than in the wild, but it's still just selective reasons for making some individuals more likely to breed and for selecting breeding partners.

And no, evolution does not predict that a dog will hatch a cat. It does describe the decent of both cats and dogs from a common carnivore ancestor. This change occurred over many more generations than the change between a wolf and a modern dog breed, but that's just a matter of scale.

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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by gaining_age » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:25 pm

Onyx wrote:
FredS wrote:
infidel wrote:You keep thinking of it as though one day a bird hatched out of a dinosaur egg. You're thinking of "kinds" as fixed, eternal categories. Evolution merely says that "kinds" are more fluid.
So "kind" can mean entirely different species? We've never seen proof that a poodle can hatch a spaniel, let alone that a poodle can hatch a cat
There is (perhaps inadvertently) some significant insight in your question. Both poodles and spaniels descend from wolves. When did the wolf become a poodle? Could you name the generation when it was suddenly a poodle? I couldn't. I guess there was a point when someone named it - but that was an arbitrary decision... the dog breeder could have named the new breed a generation later, or earlier had he chosen to.

Now you might rightly suggest that a dog of any breed is still of the same "kind" as the wolf ancestor. But you'd have to concede Infidel's point that the wolf "kind" is today a little different than it was even 1000 years ago. Every pup born has been after its own kind. But the kind itself has been flexing significantly such that now a Chihuahua might struggle to breed with a wolf or a Great Dane. At what time will we call them a different species? It's an arbitrary choice.

Don't be side-tracked by the involvement of humans in shaping the breeding of dogs. From the dog's point of view, that is just selective pressure with some adjusted priorities. It may move faster than in the wild, but it's still just selective reasons for making some individuals more likely to breed and for selecting breeding partners.

And no, evolution does not predict that a dog will hatch a cat. It does describe the decent of both cats and dogs from a common carnivore ancestor. This change occurred over many more generations than the change between a wolf and a modern dog breed, but that's just a matter of scale.
Funny! Except for that very last part creationists agree with you.
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by Irish-Dane » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:39 pm

Onyx wrote:But the kind itself has been flexing significantly such that now a Chihuahua might struggle to breed with a Great Dane. It's an arbitrary choice.
I for one, have made a choice to not breed with a Chihuahua. Maybe it's my Irish side............ but I doubt it.

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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by FredS » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:46 pm

Onyx wrote:
FredS wrote:
infidel wrote:You keep thinking of it as though one day a bird hatched out of a dinosaur egg. You're thinking of "kinds" as fixed, eternal categories. Evolution merely says that "kinds" are more fluid.
So "kind" can mean entirely different species? We've never seen proof that a poodle can hatch a spaniel, let alone that a poodle can hatch a cat
There is (perhaps inadvertently) some significant insight in your question. Both poodles and spaniels descend from wolves. When did the wolf become a poodle? Could you name the generation when it was suddenly a poodle? I couldn't. I guess there was a point when someone named it - but that was an arbitrary decision... the dog breeder could have named the new breed a generation later, or earlier had he chosen to.

Now you might rightly suggest that a dog of any breed is still of the same "kind" as the wolf ancestor. But you'd have to concede Infidel's point that the wolf "kind" is today a little different than it was even 1000 years ago. Every pup born has been after its own kind. But the kind itself has been flexing significantly such that now a Chihuahua might struggle to breed with a wolf or a Great Dane. At what time will we call them a different species? It's an arbitrary choice.

Don't be side-tracked by the involvement of humans in shaping the breeding of dogs. From the dog's point of view, that is just selective pressure with some adjusted priorities. It may move faster than in the wild, but it's still just selective reasons for making some individuals more likely to breed and for selecting breeding partners.

And no, evolution does not predict that a dog will hatch a cat. It does describe the decent of both cats and dogs from a common carnivore ancestor. This change occurred over many more generations than the change between a wolf and a modern dog breed, but that's just a matter of scale.
For evolution to work, it must be seen that every living thing evolved from a single living thing (something had to be the first thing). So a fern evolved in to a fish, and the fish to wolf, and the wolf to cat?
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by Thunktank » Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:57 pm

gaining_age wrote:
Onyx wrote:
FredS wrote:
infidel wrote:You keep thinking of it as though one day a bird hatched out of a dinosaur egg. You're thinking of "kinds" as fixed, eternal categories. Evolution merely says that "kinds" are more fluid.
So "kind" can mean entirely different species? We've never seen proof that a poodle can hatch a spaniel, let alone that a poodle can hatch a cat
There is (perhaps inadvertently) some significant insight in your question. Both poodles and spaniels descend from wolves. When did the wolf become a poodle? Could you name the generation when it was suddenly a poodle? I couldn't. I guess there was a point when someone named it - but that was an arbitrary decision... the dog breeder could have named the new breed a generation later, or earlier had he chosen to.

Now you might rightly suggest that a dog of any breed is still of the same "kind" as the wolf ancestor. But you'd have to concede Infidel's point that the wolf "kind" is today a little different than it was even 1000 years ago. Every pup born has been after its own kind. But the kind itself has been flexing significantly such that now a Chihuahua might struggle to breed with a wolf or a Great Dane. At what time will we call them a different species? It's an arbitrary choice.

Don't be side-tracked by the involvement of humans in shaping the breeding of dogs. From the dog's point of view, that is just selective pressure with some adjusted priorities. It may move faster than in the wild, but it's still just selective reasons for making some individuals more likely to breed and for selecting breeding partners.

And no, evolution does not predict that a dog will hatch a cat. It does describe the decent of both cats and dogs from a common carnivore ancestor. This change occurred over many more generations than the change between a wolf and a modern dog breed, but that's just a matter of scale.
Funny! Except for that very last part creationists agree with you.
This creationist agrees with the last part too. Probably. I don't think God used much magic to create the universe if any at all. There is still a great deal to learn just how and what caused the creation of new animals and species and mainline science knows this. However, I'm prepared to see the glory of God's work in whatever is discovered about it.
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by Thunktank » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:00 pm

FredS wrote:For evolution to work, it must be seen that every living thing evolved from a single living thing (something had to be the first thing). So a fern evolved in to a fish, and the fish to wolf, and the wolf to cat?
8O

Not really.
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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by Onyx » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:16 pm

FredS wrote:For evolution to work, it must be seen that every living thing evolved from a single living thing (something had to be the first thing). So a fern evolved in to a fish, and the fish to wolf, and the wolf to cat?
Fred, it's not that you don't accept the theory of evolution. It's that you don't know what evolution is. So you reject your own misunderstanding of it. I reject that too.

But to be fair, you got something right in there. The first vertebrates were fish (although not modern fish), so wolves did descend from fish - though not directly. However, wolves did not descend from modern fish. (And no fish every hatched a wolf!) Rather, both wolves and modern fish descend from a common early vertebrate animal which we classify as a fish. A branch of fish - generation by generation - became amphibian, then reptile, then mammal-like reptile, and then mammalian, from which eventually a wolf evolved. Every generation along the way was after its kind.

But it occurs to me now that it's near impossible for a person to accept this sort of descent by evolution if they understand life to have emerged only a very short time ago, since the process above took hundreds of millions of years. Do you hold that life was created on Earth approximately 6000 years ago? If so, then there's not much point me explaining aspects of evolution, I guess.

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Post by jruegg » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:40 pm

Where's Kerdy?

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Re: The Evolution Thread

Post by Bigwill » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:24 pm

Irish-Dane wrote:
Onyx wrote:But the kind itself has been flexing significantly such that now a Chihuahua might struggle to breed with a Great Dane. It's an arbitrary choice.
I for one, have made a choice to not breed with a Chihuahua. Maybe it's my Irish side............ but I doubt it.
I have made a choice to breed a bulldog with a schitzu. We're gonna call it a bullsch...er...maybe we'd better work on the name...
And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good? Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

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Post by anixi » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:30 pm

It used to be punctuated equilibrium, then moved on to alien meddling. I don't know if that's changed. Natural selection, which I believe you're alluding, has been a dead issue for the "real" nincompoops for decades...

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Post by TNLawPiper » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:38 pm

anixi wrote:It used to be punctuated equilibrium, then moved on to alien meddling. I don't know if that's changed. Natural selection, which I believe you're alluding, has been a dead issue for the "real" nincompoops for decades...
Are you suggesting that natural selection is no longer an mainstream theory? In fact, it's the basis of modern biology. I've been taught natural selection in all of the biology courses I've taken, including college-level introductory biology.

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