When did Dinosaurs get feathers?

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Post by gaining_age » Wed May 18, 2011 11:03 am

Rusty wrote:
gaining_age wrote:I once heard a prof suggest that gravitational theoretical physicists are needed like poets-- not many but you should have a few around for breadth ;)

G.
Yeah, well there is a lot more than a few. Most of the big name universities have a group doing research in cosmology, relativity, gravitation, etc It's not unusual to see groups like this:
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/research/#Ge ... 0Cosmology

http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/en/Sci ... avitation/

These are just two examples off the top of my head. I'm sure that I could find lots more.

It's very active.
I thought it was a curious statement at the time. I'm still not sure what to make of it. It was probably made from a "is that a practical venue" perspective.

Interesting that there are large research groups. There must be grant money to be brought it-- or else it is a prestige issue the universities engage in.

Whatsamatta U. probably doesn't have one and the big universities probably make that a distinction of prestige (nanner nanner).

These statements are independent of whether the field has merit-- it is whether the research brings in prestige or $$ to the university.

G.
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Post by Rusty » Wed May 18, 2011 11:35 am

gaining_age wrote:
Rusty wrote:
gaining_age wrote:I once heard a prof suggest that gravitational theoretical physicists are needed like poets-- not many but you should have a few around for breadth ;)

G.
Yeah, well there is a lot more than a few. Most of the big name universities have a group doing research in cosmology, relativity, gravitation, etc It's not unusual to see groups like this:
http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/research/#Ge ... 0Cosmology

http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/en/Sci ... avitation/

These are just two examples off the top of my head. I'm sure that I could find lots more.

It's very active.
I thought it was a curious statement at the time. I'm still not sure what to make of it. It was probably made from a "is that a practical venue" perspective.

Interesting that there are large research groups. There must be grant money to be brought it-- or else it is a prestige issue the universities engage in.

Whatsamatta U. probably doesn't have one and the big universities probably make that a distinction of prestige (nanner nanner).

These statements are independent of whether the field has merit-- it is whether the research brings in prestige or $$ to the university.

G.
Well, consider the existence of GP-B. Launching a dedicated space probe to do a multiyear experiment measuring the effects of GR is at least another symptom that there is a lot of funding for this field. That's many millions! Here's a quote on the funding for GP-B:

"The funding level reached about $30 M/yr in FY 1992, when the project entered a "science mission" phase involving development of an appropriate spacecraft to carry the experiment. Since then the funding has been approximately $50 M/yr."
http://books.nap.edu/html/gpb/summary.html

BTW there is a really nice page on APOD:
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110510.html

I know that Lazaridis (RIM) is funding a good deal of PI's cost and he apparently is a physics geek too. That's industry footing the bill and enjoying it. So there are deep pockets out there and this is a research field with a lot of caché.

Look at their about us...
http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/en/Abo ... _Overview/

Look at this roster:
http://www.dmoz.org/Science/Physics/Rel ... d_Centers/

Plus GP-B is not alone... There are at least two big experiments dedicated to gravitons...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIRGO

For bad philosophy it sure is doing well!
Last edited by Rusty on Wed May 18, 2011 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by infidel » Wed May 18, 2011 11:55 am

The thing with Dinosaur Train in general, and the recent discoveries of dinosaur feathers in particular, is that it makes paleontology exciting. Paleontology! It's not just about digging up old bones, people are actually discovering radical new insights into the history of Creation. Evolution is like the greatest puzzle ever and to have a hand in finding a piece... damn that would be something.
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Re: When did Dinosaurs get feathers?

Post by Kerdy » Thu May 19, 2011 8:02 pm

infidel wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
darthsaturn wrote:
It just seems they are making up "facts" to prove their theory's.
Now yer gettin mate!
It just seems like it to you because you don't like the theories :-)
I know them. I know they are wrong. Four inch wide square blocks do not go into 2 inch wide round holes no matter what Star Trek theory is used.
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Post by Kerdy » Thu May 19, 2011 8:12 pm

TNLawPiper wrote: Kerdy has shown his mistaken knowledge of evolutionary biology in the past.
No, I have only poked holes in things by breaking them down to their simplest forms. Academics don't like it when you ask they to prove their ideas when there is no solid proof.
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Post by Kerdy » Thu May 19, 2011 8:14 pm

Onyx wrote:
Not only do you not understand evolution as it relates to dinosaurs, you seem to lack even enough understanding of science to recognize that scientists have a superior working knowledge of evolution to you.
That's it. Attack the intelligence of the person who disagrees with you. Wow! Didn't see THAT one coming. <redacted_emoji>

Why is evolution not compatible with Creation?

Because the fall of man brought death. Because of that death, the entire OT leads up to Christ, the Messiah, the Savior of mankind. Why? Because we NEED Him for life. There was no death prior to the fall of man, no pain, no sorrow, no loss, no procreation, no sin, no NEED of salvation. After the fall, all of these things came to be.

With evolution, death has been part of existence for billions of years before man even arrived on the scene. The very acceptance of evolution negates the NEED of a Savior because it says there was no fall of man resulting in no original sin.

See the conflict?

It is not talking past one another. It’s looking at the whole of the situation and what God has created and seeing you can not have both. Only one of them could have been how we came to be here. They do not support each other. Either death existed before man or death came as a result of mans sin.
Last edited by Kerdy on Thu May 19, 2011 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kerdy » Thu May 19, 2011 8:16 pm

But what about the great grand father to the T-Rex?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... china.html

Feathers, then no feathers, then feathers again. It reminds of the argument that fish evolved out of water onto land so they could go back into the water. I still laugh at that one. Not to mention they got REALLY big, just so they could get small again.
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Post by darthsaturn » Thu May 19, 2011 8:23 pm

For me, it seems that after Dr. Grant from Jurassic Park said, talking about raptors, "They have more in common with modern day birds, then reptiles. It's a wonder they never learned how to fly!" that is when dinosaurs slowly began to get their feathers.

I love watching documentarys on dinosaurs. I have a bunch on Netflix! The evolution part does not bother me. What bothers me is that in all the docus I've watched, I have never seen them show any evidence that dinosaurs had feathers. I won't argue if there is fossilized proof, it's just that in these docus they never put forth the proof.
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Post by Onyx » Thu May 19, 2011 8:34 pm

Kerdy wrote:See the conflict?
Yes. Thanks for explaining from your perspective.

Also, I did not attack your intelligence. I think you're plenty intelligent enough to understand evolution (as I said in that same post from which you took my quote). I just think that you are ignorant of the theory of evolution because your criticisms demonstrate that. You already believe something which prevents you from considering evolution. You've explained that very clearly above.
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Post by Kerdy » Thu May 19, 2011 8:46 pm

Onyx wrote:
Kerdy wrote:See the conflict?
Yes. Thanks for explaining from your perspective.

Also, I did not attack your intelligence. I think you're plenty intelligent enough to understand evolution (as I said in that same post from which you took my quote). I just think that you are ignorant of the theory of evolution because your criticisms demonstrate that. You already believe something which prevents you from considering evolution. You've explained that very clearly above.
I was just jazzing you. Sorry!

And it only took me what, two years to finally clear up the problem in my mind with evolution. If I could only take so little time with my wife, life would be great! :lol:

Sometimes I don't clarify very well even in person. Not sure why.
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Post by Onyx » Thu May 19, 2011 8:53 pm

Kerdy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Kerdy wrote:See the conflict?
Yes. Thanks for explaining from your perspective.

Also, I did not attack your intelligence. I think you're plenty intelligent enough to understand evolution (as I said in that same post from which you took my quote). I just think that you are ignorant of the theory of evolution because your criticisms demonstrate that. You already believe something which prevents you from considering evolution. You've explained that very clearly above.
I was just jazzing you. Sorry!

And it only took me what, two years to finally clear up the problem in my mind with evolution. If I could only take so little time with my wife, life would be great! :lol:

Sometimes I don't clarify very well even in person. Not sure why.
Huh? I'm really confused now... I don't know what you mean.
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Post by Thunktank » Thu May 19, 2011 11:24 pm

Kerdy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Not only do you not understand evolution as it relates to dinosaurs, you seem to lack even enough understanding of science to recognize that scientists have a superior working knowledge of evolution to you.
That's it. Attack the intelligence of the person who disagrees with you. Wow! Didn't see THAT one coming. <redacted_emoji>

Why is evolution not compatible with Creation?

Because the fall of man brought death. Because of that death, the entire OT leads up to Christ, the Messiah, the Savior of mankind. Why? Because we NEED Him for life. There was no death prior to the fall of man, no pain, no sorrow, no loss, no procreation, no sin, no NEED of salvation. After the fall, all of these things came to be.

With evolution, death has been part of existence for billions of years before man even arrived on the scene. The very acceptance of evolution negates the NEED of a Savior because it says there was no fall of man resulting in no original sin.

See the conflict?

It is not talking past one another. It’s looking at the whole of the situation and what God has created and seeing you can not have both. Only one of them could have been how we came to be here. They do not support each other. Either death existed before man or death came as a result of mans sin.
:ohmy:

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Post by Onyx » Fri May 20, 2011 12:29 am

Thunktank wrote: :ohmy:
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Post by Thunktank » Fri May 20, 2011 12:54 am

Onyx wrote:
Thunktank wrote: :ohmy:
Image

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Post by Kerdy » Fri May 20, 2011 4:21 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Not only do you not understand evolution as it relates to dinosaurs, you seem to lack even enough understanding of science to recognize that scientists have a superior working knowledge of evolution to you.
That's it. Attack the intelligence of the person who disagrees with you. Wow! Didn't see THAT one coming. <redacted_emoji>

Why is evolution not compatible with Creation?

Because the fall of man brought death. Because of that death, the entire OT leads up to Christ, the Messiah, the Savior of mankind. Why? Because we NEED Him for life. There was no death prior to the fall of man, no pain, no sorrow, no loss, no procreation, no sin, no NEED of salvation. After the fall, all of these things came to be.

With evolution, death has been part of existence for billions of years before man even arrived on the scene. The very acceptance of evolution negates the NEED of a Savior because it says there was no fall of man resulting in no original sin.

See the conflict?

It is not talking past one another. It’s looking at the whole of the situation and what God has created and seeing you can not have both. Only one of them could have been how we came to be here. They do not support each other. Either death existed before man or death came as a result of mans sin.
:ohmy:
What's wrong? You look shocked.
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Post by Thunktank » Fri May 20, 2011 5:07 pm

Kerdy wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Kerdy wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Not only do you not understand evolution as it relates to dinosaurs, you seem to lack even enough understanding of science to recognize that scientists have a superior working knowledge of evolution to you.
That's it. Attack the intelligence of the person who disagrees with you. Wow! Didn't see THAT one coming. <redacted_emoji>

Why is evolution not compatible with Creation?

Because the fall of man brought death. Because of that death, the entire OT leads up to Christ, the Messiah, the Savior of mankind. Why? Because we NEED Him for life. There was no death prior to the fall of man, no pain, no sorrow, no loss, no procreation, no sin, no NEED of salvation. After the fall, all of these things came to be.

With evolution, death has been part of existence for billions of years before man even arrived on the scene. The very acceptance of evolution negates the NEED of a Savior because it says there was no fall of man resulting in no original sin.

See the conflict?

It is not talking past one another. It’s looking at the whole of the situation and what God has created and seeing you can not have both. Only one of them could have been how we came to be here. They do not support each other. Either death existed before man or death came as a result of mans sin.
:ohmy:
What's wrong? You look shocked.
There's so much to go over here. I see your point and appreciate it for what it is but are you aware of other traditions and possibilities concerning this? I'm speaking of Orthodox traditions here of course. You are favoring a particular opinion which is fine but it's not the only possibility. I can understand now why you are so opposed to science but I personally find your objections based on the cherry picking of traditions that are allowable opinions but necessarily dogma.

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Post by gaining_age » Fri May 20, 2011 5:14 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Thunktank wrote: :ohmy:
Image
He could be a while. You may want to find an alternative pot.

G.
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Post by Rusty » Fri May 20, 2011 5:28 pm

gaining_age wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Thunktank wrote: :ohmy:
Image
He could be a while. You may want to find an alternative pot.

G.
Be a while? You must be kidding. He drank the contents of the bowl!
They're doing an intervention now.

But just a note to those of you with spouses - turn in your sex organs!
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Post by gaining_age » Fri May 20, 2011 5:50 pm

Rusty wrote:
gaining_age wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Thunktank wrote: :ohmy:
Image
He could be a while. You may want to find an alternative pot.

G.
Be a while? You must be kidding. He drank the contents of the bowl!
They're doing an intervention now.

But just a note to those of you with spouses - turn in your sex organs!
Sexy sexy!

Image
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Post by mkbolivianwonder » Fri May 20, 2011 8:41 pm

Onyx wrote:
sysiphus wrote:
Onyx wrote:
Kerdy wrote:Before they were big and then they...no after they were big and developed into...wait, before and after they...crud, I don't know. They keep freakin changing it.
You are a poster child for the Dunning Kruger effect. Not only do you not understand evolution as it relates to dinosaurs, you seem to lack even enough understanding of science to recognize that scientists have a superior working knowledge of evolution to you.
And that, therefore, a mere layman could never understand the hidden secrets of Science? Sounds like mysticism.
No, that's pretty much the opposite of what I'm saying. Kerdy is way smart enough to get a good grasp of the evolution. I have a couple of books I could recommend which I think Kerdy would easily grasp and they would increase his sense of wonder at the natural world.

The trouble is that rather than learn about it, he thinks he can see flaws in it because his knowledge of it is so meager that he lacks even the knowledge to assess his own ignorance of the field.

Evolution is fact. We have long known that both birds and mammals evolved from reptiles. The point that has recently come into the public knowledge is that the reptiles from which birds evolved may have been from within the group of reptiles we call dinosaurs. I don't know what level of proof exists for this. As Kerdy suggests, it is subject to revision, because people continue to learn. However the knowledge that birds evolved from some form of reptile is so well established that we describe it as a "fact". The phenomenon we observe here of Christians mocking this sort of science is a discredit to Christianity, and speaks poorly of any genuine desire to seek truth.
I am perfectly open to hear what anyone says about their theories. However, I have a question about cross-species evolution that no one has been able to answer for me, and it has kept me dubious. I'm perfectly open to an answer if you have it, though.
During a lecture on chromosomes, my Biology teacher mentioned that in cases of chromosomal aneuploidy, such as Down Syndrome, the individual affected is unable to reproduce. I may just not be understanding the issue fully, but my question to him was: if aneuploidy renders an organism unable to reproduce, how then was any organism able to evolve from one species to another. I mean, in order for cross species evolution to work, two creatures of the opposite sex would have to not only by chance develop the same mutations, but then somehow manage to successfully reproduce, which according to what we learned is impossible. Is that a valid argument, or am I barking up an empty tree? I'm sure I don't fully understand what I'm talking about, but my teacher's response was, "these are just random chance events." that answer left me less than satisfied.
An alligator has 32 chromosomes and a chicken has 78. That's a big difference.
Or, how could 2 individuals of the opposite sex and species develop the right reproductive organs that would match up so they could produce offpsring?
Not to mention the second law of thermodynamics, that all systems tend toward entropy. Or the incredibly complex human eye, missing any of its individual components would not function at all. (Yes I know, irreducible complexity is not the strongest ground to stand on) But how was the eye able to evolve when, by natural selection, the incomplete and therefore useless organ should have been discarded many times over. You've probably heard all of these multiple times over. But I would love to hear what you have to say about them. I'm here with open ears, and an open mind. Be aware, mind you, that I am not talking about evolution within species. That is obviously taking place all the time, hence the pigmentless, blind, cave dwelling fish and frogs.

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