THE CATHOLIC THREAD

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:14 pm

+JMJ+

Exclusive interview: Antonio Spadaro on his article about ‘The Ecumenism of Hate’ in the U.S.
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Pope Francis accepts an issue of La Civilta Cattolica from Father Antonio Spadaro, editor of the Jesuit-run magazine, in February. (CNS photo/L'Osservatore Romano, handout)

What is the central question you wish to raise with this article?

The central question is the mutual manipulation between politics and religion, which is a risk that is not exclusive to the United States, it’s a constant risk.

[…]

Is it usual for La Civiltà Cattolica to express its opinion on the Catholic Church in a particular country to such an extent?

Since last February, La Civiltà Cattolica has been an international review published in five languages. It is necessary, therefore, to have an international outlook at both the religious and political levels. We [Spadaro and his Protestant co-author] have not expressed our opinion on the Catholic Church in general. We have expressed our opinion on a phenomenon and sought to make our contribution to understanding it.

So you are focusing on the phenomenon rather than the country?

Exactly! But, I should add that it is the tradition of La Civiltà Cattolica to reflect on ecclesial phenomena that can concern various countries in the world. Normally, there is one article in each issue on the various countries in the world from the point of view of international politics and the politics of the church at the international level. This has been part of our tradition since the founding of the review in 1850. In this edition, we wanted to underline a phenomenon and tried to understand it, not to focus on a nation.

[…]

Some early responses to the article have suggested that it conflates mainstream conservative political/religious alliances (around issues like abortion, religious liberty and same-sex marriage) with the extreme fringe positions it describes. Others have suggested that it demonizes anyone who can be connected to these positions even as it calls for a broader spirit of dialogue. How would you respond to these critics?

It was not our intention to demonize anybody. We highlighted the risk in certain situations. We did not wish to demonize the conservatives or the progressives in these situations on which we focused. We highlighted how some religious values are manipulated for political ends. I see this manipulation as very risky, irrespective of whether it’s done by the progressives or by the conservatives. It’s problematic. Today we see the manipulation of religion by parts of the ultra-conservative political forces in various countries. But we hold that in the political field differences of position are not only legitimate but also necessary. …




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:15 pm

What's your point here, Wozzie? You have become like Uncle Bob, posting controversial links without any comment.

Are you pointing out the rhetoric of gay-liberal Jesuits, which seems perhaps even to reach as high as Pope Francis himself?

Or do you believe that American Christians are suddenly full of hate, and America is a dire threat to the world because Catholics and Evangelicals turned out and voted their consciences?
- We had good reason to fear "President Hillary," without hating anybody.
- President Trump has not encouraged hatred toward any persons, nor have his policies. He has rolled back several Obama-era policies that harmed Christians.

Where are we going with this?
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:01 pm

+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:15 pm
What's your point here, Wozzie?

Giving a hearing to Fr Spadaro's explanation of purpose:
wosbald wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:14 pm
Exclusive interview: Antonio Spadaro on his article about ‘The Ecumenism of Hate’ in the U.S.
It was not our intention to demonize anybody. We highlighted the risk in certain situations. We did not wish to demonize the conservatives or the progressives in these situations on which we focused. We highlighted how some religious values are manipulated for political ends. I see this manipulation as very risky, irrespective of whether it’s done by the progressives or by the conservatives. It’s problematic. Today we see the manipulation of religion by parts of the ultra-conservative political forces in various countries. But we hold that in the political field differences of position are not only legitimate but also necessary.

This would seem to defuse the main concern of your reading:
Del wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:49 pm
As nearly as I can tell, this is an attack on Christian voters who chose Trump.

I'd think that you'd be happy or relieved about that.




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:50 pm

wosbald wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:01 pm
+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:15 pm
What's your point here, Wozzie?

Giving a hearing to Fr Spadaro's explanation of purpose:
wosbald wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:14 pm
Exclusive interview: Antonio Spadaro on his article about ‘The Ecumenism of Hate’ in the U.S.
It was not our intention to demonize anybody. We highlighted the risk in certain situations. We did not wish to demonize the conservatives or the progressives in these situations on which we focused. We highlighted how some religious values are manipulated for political ends. I see this manipulation as very risky, irrespective of whether it’s done by the progressives or by the conservatives. It’s problematic. Today we see the manipulation of religion by parts of the ultra-conservative political forces in various countries. But we hold that in the political field differences of position are not only legitimate but also necessary.

This would seem to defuse the main concern of your reading:
Del wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:49 pm
As nearly as I can tell, this is an attack on Christian voters who chose Trump.
I'd think that you'd be happy or relieved about that.
I knew that already. I don't believe their honest disinterest, as it seems that they are the ones who are injecting politics over living faith.

Let's start with the inflamatory title: Where is the "hate" that these foreign ecumenists speak of? Why is America giving them a replay here in America, in English?

We have commented plenty on the hatred, violence, and intolerance from the Left.

Where is the "hatred" that they find in the supposed cooperation of Catholics and Evangelical Christians in our voting?
- Is something happening in Argentina perhaps? Is that why Francis's Presbyterian pastor-friend from Argentina is weighing in?

I can't see the substance here.

American Catholics voted against Hillary in self-defense. Projecting a lot of "hate" upon us is unjust and uncalled-for.

Maybe there is more in South America that I am not seeing.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:04 pm

+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:50 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:01 pm
Del wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:15 pm
What's your point here, Wozzie?

Giving a hearing to Fr Spadaro's explanation of purpose:
wosbald wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:14 pm
Exclusive interview: Antonio Spadaro on his article about ‘The Ecumenism of Hate’ in the U.S.
It was not our intention to demonize anybody. We highlighted the risk in certain situations. We did not wish to demonize the conservatives or the progressives in these situations on which we focused. We highlighted how some religious values are manipulated for political ends. I see this manipulation as very risky, irrespective of whether it’s done by the progressives or by the conservatives. It’s problematic. Today we see the manipulation of religion by parts of the ultra-conservative political forces in various countries. But we hold that in the political field differences of position are not only legitimate but also necessary.

This would seem to defuse the main concern of your reading:
Del wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:49 pm
As nearly as I can tell, this is an attack on Christian voters who chose Trump.
I'd think that you'd be happy or relieved about that.
I knew that already. … <redacted>
So, you're gonna try to bogart "The Catholic Thread", too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPhqkwDwJjw




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:47 pm

wosbald wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:04 pm
So, you're gonna try to bogart "The Catholic Thread", too?
Let me put it to you straight:

What do you think about these articles you posted from Crux & America?
Are they good news or bad news for American Catholics?
What would you like me to think of them?
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:17 pm

+JMJ+

Here's another thoughtful article [from Crux!] by Fr. de Souza. Though I think that he misreads the purpose of the article in the manner which I'd indicated earlier, he does make some valid counter-considerations.

Article by pope’s confidantes adds little to understanding Trump’s America
Image
Pope Francis accepts an issue of 'La Civilta Cattolica' from Father Antonio Spadaro, editor of the Jesuit-run magazine, during a Feb. 9 meeting with editors and staff. (Credit: CNS photo/L'Osservatore Romano, handout.)

A recent article in the influential Rome-based 'La Civiltà Cattolica' - which is reviewed by the Vatican's Secretariat of State before publication - politics of the Trump administration has its roots in an unholy alliance between “Evangelical Fundamentalism” and “Catholic Integralism.” But does it patronize Evangelicals and mischaracterize certain Catholics to make its point?

[…]

On the Catholic side, Spadaro and Figueroa are alarmed, as they write in this key paragraph:
Some who profess themselves to be Catholic express themselves in ways that until recently were unknown in their tradition and using tones much closer to Evangelicals. They are defined as value voters as far as attracting electoral mass support is concerned. There is a well-defined world of ecumenical convergence between sectors that are paradoxically competitors when it comes to confessional belonging. This meeting over shared objectives happens around such themes as abortion, same-sex marriage, religious education in schools and other matters generally considered moral or tied to values. Both Evangelical and Catholic Integralists condemn traditional ecumenism and yet promote an ecumenism of conflict that unites them in the nostalgic dream of a theocratic type of state. However, the most dangerous prospect for this strange ecumenism is attributable to its xenophobic and Islamophobic vision that wants walls and purifying deportations. The word ‘ecumenism’ transforms into a paradox, into an ‘ecumenism of hate.’ Intolerance is a celestial mark of purism. Reductionism is the exegetical methodology. Ultraliteralism is its hermeneutical key.
All that would certainly be alarming. But is it happening? Who are “those who profess to be Catholic” who “dream of a theocratic type of state”? What journals expound their thoughts? In what faculties do they teach? What books have they written? What movements does their thought animate?

None of that exists. But there is Michael Voris and his Church Militant site. After their superficial survey of a century of American Protestant thought, Spadaro and Figueroa offer only this on the Catholic side:
There is a shocking rhetoric used, for example, by the writers of Church Militant, a successful US-based digital platform that is openly in favor of a political ultraconservatism and uses Christian symbols to impose itself. This abuse is called “authentic Christianity.” And to show its own preferences, it has created a close analogy between Donald Trump and Emperor Constantine, and between Hilary Clinton and Diocletian. The American elections in this perspective were seen as a ‘spiritual war’.
Perhaps Michael Voris is successful, but only a vast ignorance of the American Catholic scene would consider Church Militant to be influential, let alone representative. Voris has been forbidden to use the name “Catholic” in his ventures, and just last week was asked to leave the Convocation of Catholic Leaders in Orlando, American Catholicism’s largest such recent gathering. Did Spadaro consult his Jesuit colleagues at America, or Figueroa his American colleagues at L’Osservatore Romano, about the relative importance of Voris on the American “theological” scene, as it were?

Selecting such a singular and extreme example fatally undercuts the argument that Spadaro and Figueroa are advancing, and evidences a willingness to think ill of the character of American Catholic discourse.

We might then ask how this is supposed to serve the ministry of Pope Francis.

Surely Spadaro and Figueroa know that they are widely considered papal confidants and authentic interpreters of his thought. That is why attention is duly paid to what they write, edit and tweet. A piece that patronizes Evangelicals and mischaracterizes Catholics would seem to retard the very ecumenism that the Holy Father seeks to advance.

Surely this is not the vision that Pope Francis has of Christian theology in the United States? …




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by TNLawPiper » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:38 pm

One only need look at the comments threads on EWTN's Facebook page to see where the hate is. Millions of Catholics who have sold their faith for temporal power and acceptance by the Republican Party, giving up their pro-life ethic for an anti-abortion-yet-anti-poor political platform.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:21 pm

I have trouble with that last statement, sir. Might be true, I suppose. But equally true are the millions of Catholics who vote the other way for temporal power and their definition of justice. As long as people vote their faith-informed conscience, I believe that true Catholics can be on either side of the political spectrum. We're making gods of our political parties in general. I'd like to think I'm not alone in not pulling the straight ticket. Then again, I might not be a true Catholic, I suppose.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by TNLawPiper » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:48 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:21 pm
I have trouble with that last statement, sir. Might be true, I suppose. But equally true are the millions of Catholics who vote the other way for temporal power and their definition of justice. As long as people vote their faith-informed conscience, I believe that true Catholics can be on either side of the political spectrum. We're making gods of our political parties in general. I'd like to think I'm not alone in not pulling the straight ticket. Then again, I might not be a true Catholic, I suppose.
No, there are two sides to that coin. It's just a shame how many are willing to turn their backs on the Church over politics. Many are putting their trust in our President (or our past president) and casting aspersions on our Pope.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:59 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:48 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:21 pm
I have trouble with that last statement, sir. Might be true, I suppose. But equally true are the millions of Catholics who vote the other way for temporal power and their definition of justice. As long as people vote their faith-informed conscience, I believe that true Catholics can be on either side of the political spectrum. We're making gods of our political parties in general. I'd like to think I'm not alone in not pulling the straight ticket. Then again, I might not be a true Catholic, I suppose.
No, there are two sides to that coin. It's just a shame how many are willing to turn their backs on the Church over politics. Many are putting their trust in our President (or our past president) and casting aspersions on our Pope.
Definitely. Those guys scare me.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by wosbald » Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:18 am

+JMJ+

Agree or not, it’s good to know what Vatican insiders think of America
Image
President Donald Trump greets supporters in Mobile, Alabama. (Credit: AP.)

An article by two friends of Pope Francis arguing that a 'Manichean vision' underlies 'a surprising ecumenism … between Evangelical fundamentalists and Catholic Integralists' in the United States may be debatable, but it illustrates a time-honored Vatican take on America that neither this pope nor his advisers invented. (As a footnote, we might want to slow down before blaming the US bishops.)

On Thursday, the Jesuit-run journal La Civiltà Cattolica, which is reviewed by the Vatican’s Secretariat of State prior to publication, carried an article by two close friends of Pope Francis arguing that a “Manichean vision” underlies a “a strange form of surprising ecumenism … between Evangelical fundamentalists and Catholic Integralists” in the United States.

(“Manichean” refers to an ancient Persian religion that believed in a cosmic battle between light and dark, good and evil, and is used now to mean black-and-white thinking.)

By “Catholic Integralism,” the article appeared to have in mind, at least in part, Catholic support for U.S. President Donald Trump. It cited Trump adviser Steve Bannon, who’s a Catholic, suggesting he’s a “supporter of an apocalyptic geopolitics.”

Given the hyper-polarized nature of today’s America, immediate reaction here mostly broke down along pro- or anti-Trump lines … if you’re inclined to give the president a break, you probably hated the article, and vice-versa.

Apart from its political significance, however, I’ll offer four longer-term notes about why the article matters. …




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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am

So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:57 am

wosbald wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:17 pm
+JMJ+

Here's another thoughtful article [from Crux!] by Fr. de Souza. Though I think that he misreads the purpose of the article in the manner which I'd indicated earlier, he does make some valid counter-considerations.

Article by pope’s confidantes adds little to understanding Trump’s America
Image
Pope Francis accepts an issue of 'La Civilta Cattolica' from Father Antonio Spadaro, editor of the Jesuit-run magazine, during a Feb. 9 meeting with editors and staff. (Credit: CNS photo/L'Osservatore Romano, handout.)

A recent article in the influential Rome-based 'La Civiltà Cattolica' - which is reviewed by the Vatican's Secretariat of State before publication - politics of the Trump administration has its roots in an unholy alliance between “Evangelical Fundamentalism” and “Catholic Integralism.” But does it patronize Evangelicals and mischaracterize certain Catholics to make its point?

[…]

On the Catholic side, Spadaro and Figueroa are alarmed, as they write in this key paragraph:
Some who profess themselves to be Catholic express themselves in ways that until recently were unknown in their tradition and using tones much closer to Evangelicals. They are defined as value voters as far as attracting electoral mass support is concerned. There is a well-defined world of ecumenical convergence between sectors that are paradoxically competitors when it comes to confessional belonging. This meeting over shared objectives happens around such themes as abortion, same-sex marriage, religious education in schools and other matters generally considered moral or tied to values. Both Evangelical and Catholic Integralists condemn traditional ecumenism and yet promote an ecumenism of conflict that unites them in the nostalgic dream of a theocratic type of state. However, the most dangerous prospect for this strange ecumenism is attributable to its xenophobic and Islamophobic vision that wants walls and purifying deportations. The word ‘ecumenism’ transforms into a paradox, into an ‘ecumenism of hate.’ Intolerance is a celestial mark of purism. Reductionism is the exegetical methodology. Ultraliteralism is its hermeneutical key.
All that would certainly be alarming. But is it happening? Who are “those who profess to be Catholic” who “dream of a theocratic type of state”? What journals expound their thoughts? In what faculties do they teach? What books have they written? What movements does their thought animate?

None of that exists. But there is Michael Voris and his Church Militant site. After their superficial survey of a century of American Protestant thought, Spadaro and Figueroa offer only this on the Catholic side:
There is a shocking rhetoric used, for example, by the writers of Church Militant, a successful US-based digital platform that is openly in favor of a political ultraconservatism and uses Christian symbols to impose itself. This abuse is called “authentic Christianity.” And to show its own preferences, it has created a close analogy between Donald Trump and Emperor Constantine, and between Hilary Clinton and Diocletian. The American elections in this perspective were seen as a ‘spiritual war’.
Perhaps Michael Voris is successful, but only a vast ignorance of the American Catholic scene would consider Church Militant to be influential, let alone representative. Voris has been forbidden to use the name “Catholic” in his ventures, and just last week was asked to leave the Convocation of Catholic Leaders in Orlando, American Catholicism’s largest such recent gathering. Did Spadaro consult his Jesuit colleagues at America, or Figueroa his American colleagues at L’Osservatore Romano, about the relative importance of Voris on the American “theological” scene, as it were?

Selecting such a singular and extreme example fatally undercuts the argument that Spadaro and Figueroa are advancing, and evidences a willingness to think ill of the character of American Catholic discourse.

We might then ask how this is supposed to serve the ministry of Pope Francis.

Surely Spadaro and Figueroa know that they are widely considered papal confidants and authentic interpreters of his thought. That is why attention is duly paid to what they write, edit and tweet. A piece that patronizes Evangelicals and mischaracterizes Catholics would seem to retard the very ecumenism that the Holy Father seeks to advance.

Surely this is not the vision that Pope Francis has of Christian theology in the United States? …
Ah.... There it is. That is the "hate" that the Italian Jesuit and the Presbyterian from Argentina see.

It may be different from around the country.... All I can say is that, in Wisconsin, I know hundreds of Catholics who voted for Trump. And I do not know one of them who is cozy with Evangelicals (not many in Wisconsin), or desiring to purify America of Mexican families (we love them in our parishes), or who have any fear of Moslems (except the terrorists, who are not good Moslems).

The authors of the article don't know American Catholics. They are believing what the secular media says, ignoring the media's awful history of willfully misunderstanding American Catholics.

The article misses the point entirely by ignoring the threat that Hillary presented to American Christians, both Evangelicals and Catholics. If she had been a better candidate than Trump, then this article might have some merit.

And then to fixate on Micael Voris! His schtick is to call out the bishops in American and Rome who aren't doing their job as shepherds. He rails about the "gay mafia" in the hierarchy and within the Jesuit order. Spadaro is shooting himself in the foot, giving Voris wider recognition!
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:00 am

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
I believe the Shroud is authentic.

Just waiting for science and the Church to come to a conclusion.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:03 am

Del wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:00 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
I believe the Shroud is authentic.

Just waiting for science and the Church to come to a conclusion.
Did you read the article about it? Or just the political stuff?
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by Del » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:08 am

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:03 am
Del wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:00 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
I believe the Shroud is authentic.

Just waiting for science and the Church to come to a conclusion.
Did you read the article about it? Or just the political stuff?
Where am I supposed to go to find this article? I see no link here.

I did not follow any of the links to the political stuff, either. It is clear that they do not understand American Christians, and they aren't grinding their axes on me.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:23 am

Del wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:08 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:03 am
Del wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:00 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
I believe the Shroud is authentic.

Just waiting for science and the Church to come to a conclusion.
Did you read the article about it? Or just the political stuff?
Where am I supposed to go to find this article? I see no link here.

I did not follow any of the links to the political stuff, either. It is clear that they do not understand American Christians, and they aren't grinding their axes on me.
Oh, I thought you'd actually read the articles from Crux. Your posts make more sense now that you admit that you haven't. It's on that site. You know, Catholic news and all. Surprised Wosbald missed it, too, frankly.
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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:34 am

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
I tend to avoid articles about relics and controversies surrounding shrines. I don't understand them, and they sometimes bug me out. My distrust of the mystical from my Evangelical upbringing has not been sufficiently purged.

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Re: THE CATHOLIC THREAD

Post by hugodrax » Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:22 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:34 am
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:34 am
So nobody read the article on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Typical CPS.
I tend to avoid articles about relics and controversies surrounding shrines. I don't understand them, and they sometimes bug me out. My distrust of the mystical from my Evangelical upbringing has not been sufficiently purged.
Healthy attitude to have, I'd say. I was just surprised that we were banging away at Catholic policies and didn't notice an article of possible interest to lay Catholics.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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