THE CATHANGLODOX THREAD

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THE CATHANGLODOX THREAD

Post by jo533281 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:17 pm

Perhaps I am jumping the gun here by starting this without much communal imput. If it just dies then so be it. I think this can be an enlightening venture. We need to get our collective heads together and start somewhere. Better than having multiple posts in multipe threads that one has to search through and for to find what could be brought into one arena.

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Post by Irish-Dane » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:21 pm

Be afraid, be very afraid.
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Post by jo533281 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:27 pm

Irish-Dane wrote:Be afraid, be very afraid.
Really? Is that a joke? I suppose that isnt really important. At best, perhaps this is a place to post things like what I posted in both TOT and TCT. This way I dont have to double post and conversation can come together rather than happen in 2 separate threads. The RC, Anglicans, and EO have usually had very pleasant conversations. What you need to be afraid of is when we talk to Prots :lol:

But in all seriousness, it is still something worth pursuing, even if it makes no real impact between our three communions at the highest levels.
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Post by Irish-Dane » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:37 pm

jo533281 wrote:
Irish-Dane wrote:Be afraid, be very afraid.
Really? Is that a joke?
Well, you didn't put it in the Theology room, so I'm just poking some fun.

Carry on.
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Post by Brigid » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:56 pm

Idea: When you start a discussion here that you'd normally put in the the Orthodox or Catholic thread, go to the other two threads and say, "Hey, click <link>The Cathanglodox Thead</link> for a nifty article on...."

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Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:09 pm

+JMJ+
jo533281 wrote:
Irish-Dane wrote:Be afraid, be very afraid.
Really? Is that a joke? I suppose that isnt really important. At best, perhaps this is a place to post things like what I posted in both TOT and TCT. This way I dont have to double post and conversation can come together rather than happen in 2 separate threads. The RC, Anglicans, and EO have usually had very pleasant conversations. What you need to be afraid of is when we talk to Prots :lol:
The thing is that the fact that we can have these conversations is proof that there is a "dynamic consonance" in the East/West paradigms which make these discussions possible. A consonance of Incarnational worldviews (ecclesiological and soteriological, primarily). This consonance is simply missing in the discussions with Protestants, which renders discussions rather fruitless.

At any rate, I don't see this thread as a way to "work out" reunion. That would be wishful thinking. For myself at least, I see it as a place to contemplate how these "dynamic consonances" may compliment each other.

I think that this may be good place to put this exchange, which broadly encapsulates my personal view of East/West complementarity...

jo533281 wrote:
wosbald wrote:
jo533281 wrote:Whenever the term sister churches is used in ancient Christianity it is NEVER used with a heretical or schismatic body. We are divided but the Church, Christ, is not and never can be. That would be some Protestant ecclesiology. This isnt promoting schism as I have been accused of in the past but being faithful to our shared heritage, pre-schism. Sister churches was only ever invoked when speaking of another church in communion (and those are the key words) with the particular church/parish using the phrase. I just think it is dishonest to use it trying to be nice. Thats great and all but you are essentially dismissing our shared heritage when you try to use it in a way that Augustine, Chrysostom, Basil, Pope Gregory, etc would not have used it, at least according to the written records that we have.

BTW aaron you are welcome to post here and ask questions. I have yet to see an argument errupt in either the EO or RC thread over sincere questions. I think these threads give us a break from bickering that always happens in the theology threads. Post here as often as you like!
I'd have to agree with this, on the main.

I think that we'd both agree that the Church didn't lose Unity in the schism and that this Unity resides only on one side or the other of the schism. Of course, I'd say that it resides under the Headship of Christ's Vicar.

However, the Roman Church lost something in the schism. But what was it?

In my estimation, we lost an entire sacred culture, grouped around a true Eucharist, which was explicitly ordered (or weighted) toward celebrating Christic Life from the One-Storey-side-of-the-coin.

Now, granted, there is a germ of One-Storey Thinking in the Latin mindset just as there is a germ of Two-Storey Thinking in the Greek mindset. This dynamic tension must be maintained, under pain of no longer being Christian. As I touched upon in the "Is God Wholly Separate...?" thread, the paradigm formally inaugurated by Calvin (and which had been brewing for a couple of hundred years in the West) has no place in the Christian framework nor in any orthodox stream of the primordial pagan traditions.

Losing the East meant that the practical expression of the whole of Catholic Truth (the face of the Church as presented toward the World) had become somewhat unbalanced. As modern history shows, the World needs the dynamic tension of East/West mindsets in order to be steered away from the twin errors engendered by radicalizing either of them.

So, although we can both agree that there is no "lost Unity" which needs to be regained, I would say that we can certainly be more unified in the practical order (which, it seems to me, is precisely that which solidarity around Christ's Vicar accomplishes). And thus, the Roman Church could only be stronger through Eastern reunification.

At least, that's how I tend to look at it.
I think I can heartily +1 this, except for your opinion on the "solidarity around Christ's Vicar, " of course. I think we have lost something from the West. I would say though that Anglican converts and the rise of the Western Rite in the Antiochian and ROCOR jurisdictions is helping us find that once again. But I think we also need RC input as well to move us out of some "Byzantine only" outlooks that some Orthodox have. With the rise of the WR, I think reunification will only become more and more plausable. Without it, I fear we will be stuck as we are, sadly separated.

+1 also on the Cathanglodox thread idea btw.
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Post by dasmokeryaget » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:11 pm

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
jo533281 wrote:
Irish-Dane wrote:Be afraid, be very afraid.
Really? Is that a joke? I suppose that isnt really important. At best, perhaps this is a place to post things like what I posted in both TOT and TCT. This way I dont have to double post and conversation can come together rather than happen in 2 separate threads. The RC, Anglicans, and EO have usually had very pleasant conversations. What you need to be afraid of is when we talk to Prots :lol:
The thing is that the fact that we can have these conversations is proof that there is a "dynamic consonance" in the East/West paradigms which make these discussions possible. A consonance of Incarnational worldviews (ecclesiological and soteriological, primarily). This consonance is simply missing in the discussions with Protestants, which renders discussions rather fruitless.

At any rate, I don't see this thread as a way to "work out" reunion. That would be wishful thinking. For myself at least, I see it as a place to contemplate how these "dynamic consonances" may compliment each other.

I think that this may be good place to put this exchange, which broadly encapsulates my personal view of East/West complementarity...

jo533281 wrote:
wosbald wrote:
jo533281 wrote:Whenever the term sister churches is used in ancient Christianity it is NEVER used with a heretical or schismatic body. We are divided but the Church, Christ, is not and never can be. That would be some Protestant ecclesiology. This isnt promoting schism as I have been accused of in the past but being faithful to our shared heritage, pre-schism. Sister churches was only ever invoked when speaking of another church in communion (and those are the key words) with the particular church/parish using the phrase. I just think it is dishonest to use it trying to be nice. Thats great and all but you are essentially dismissing our shared heritage when you try to use it in a way that Augustine, Chrysostom, Basil, Pope Gregory, etc would not have used it, at least according to the written records that we have.

BTW aaron you are welcome to post here and ask questions. I have yet to see an argument errupt in either the EO or RC thread over sincere questions. I think these threads give us a break from bickering that always happens in the theology threads. Post here as often as you like!
I'd have to agree with this, on the main.

I think that we'd both agree that the Church didn't lose Unity in the schism and that this Unity resides only on one side or the other of the schism. Of course, I'd say that it resides under the Headship of Christ's Vicar.

However, the Roman Church lost something in the schism. But what was it?

In my estimation, we lost an entire sacred culture, grouped around a true Eucharist, which was explicitly ordered (or weighted) toward celebrating Christic Life from the One-Storey-side-of-the-coin.

Now, granted, there is a germ of One-Storey Thinking in the Latin mindset just as there is a germ of Two-Storey Thinking in the Greek mindset. This dynamic tension must be maintained, under pain of no longer being Christian. As I touched upon in the "Is God Wholly Separate...?" thread, the paradigm formally inaugurated by Calvin (and which had been brewing for a couple of hundred years in the West) has no place in the Christian framework nor in any orthodox stream of the primordial pagan traditions.

Losing the East meant that the practical expression of the whole of Catholic Truth (the face of the Church as presented toward the World) had become somewhat unbalanced. As modern history shows, the World needs the dynamic tension of East/West mindsets in order to be steered away from the twin errors engendered by radicalizing either of them.

So, although we can both agree that there is no "lost Unity" which needs to be regained, I would say that we can certainly be more unified in the practical order (which, it seems to me, is precisely that which solidarity around Christ's Vicar accomplishes). And thus, the Roman Church could only be stronger through Eastern reunification.

At least, that's how I tend to look at it.
I think I can heartily +1 this, except for your opinion on the "solidarity around Christ's Vicar, " of course. I think we have lost something from the West. I would say though that Anglican converts and the rise of the Western Rite in the Antiochian and ROCOR jurisdictions is helping us find that once again. But I think we also need RC input as well to move us out of some "Byzantine only" outlooks that some Orthodox have. With the rise of the WR, I think reunification will only become more and more plausable. Without it, I fear we will be stuck as we are, sadly separated.

+1 also on the Cathanglodox thread idea btw.
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Post by OldWorldSwine » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:16 pm

I was encouraged by the recent exchange in the Ortho thread. I believe there is a lot of good will. While I have no illusions, I do pray that by some miracle, a real, visible reconciliation and unity may be achieved.

Even the hope (not expectation) of seeing progress in my lifetime gets me a little misty eyed. I can't imagine much this side of heaven that would give me such great joy.
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Post by dasmokeryaget » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:20 pm

OldWorldSwine wrote:I was encouraged by the recent exchange in the Ortho thread. I believe there is a lot of good will. While I have no illusions, I do pray that by some miracle, a real, visible reconciliation and unity may be achieved.

Even the hope (not expectation) of seeing progress in my lifetime gets me a little misty eyed. I can't imagine much this side of heaven that would give me such great joy.
I think Jesus would like that too.

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Post by Del » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:42 pm

From time to time, we have discussions about items of interest to Apostolic Christians. This would be a good place to share it.

Let's face it: Our bishops and patriarchs are warming to each other in a very ecumenical style. What choice do we have?
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Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:44 pm

+JMJ+
Brigid wrote:Idea: When you start a discussion here that you'd normally put in the the Orthodox or Catholic thread, go to the other two threads and say, "Hey, click <link>The Cathanglodox Thead</link> for a nifty article on...."
Capital idea!
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Post by Del » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:17 pm

Let us pray for the selection of the new Coptic Pope.

The chosen man may die a martyr.
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Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:01 pm

+JMJ+
Del wrote:Let us pray for the selection of the new Coptic Pope.

The chosen man may die a martyr.
Praying for reunification is one thing and a greatly desired thing, but praying as if it has already occurred is another. If everyone just keeps in mind that there's still a schism, still a canonical separation, then things should go fine. If people start acting too cozy, feelings may get hurt when someone says something that needs to be said and which reminds everyone of the unfortunate reality.
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Post by Thunktank » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:33 am

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Del wrote:Let us pray for the selection of the new Coptic Pope.

The chosen man may die a martyr.
Praying for reunification is one thing and a greatly desired thing, but praying as if it has already occurred is another. If everyone just keeps in mind that there's still a schism, still a canonical separation, then things should go fine. If people start acting too cozy, feelings may get hurt when someone says something that needs to be said and which reminds everyone of the unfortunate reality.
Do the canons exist to protect schisms or grace? No doubt they may well do both at once from time to time! However, there comes a time when love draws people together and they desire to get cozy. Of course first things first before further coziness continues, but there's little good that can come from reminding ad nauseum those who desire closeness that they are at fault for not being close enough to begin with! :lol:
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Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:20 am

+JMJ+
Thunktank wrote:
wosbald wrote:
Del wrote:Let us pray for the selection of the new Coptic Pope.

The chosen man may die a martyr.
Praying for reunification is one thing and a greatly desired thing, but praying as if it has already occurred is another. If everyone just keeps in mind that there's still a schism, still a canonical separation, then things should go fine. If people start acting too cozy, feelings may get hurt when someone says something that needs to be said and which reminds everyone of the unfortunate reality.
Do the canons exist to protect schisms or grace? No doubt they may well do both at once from time to time!
Precisely. Everything in it's own proper place.

For example, I wouldn't be surprised if Orthodox might privately pray for our bishops in some manner. But I would never expect you to issue a public call for Orthodox to pray for RC hierarchs in their official capacity as shepherds, lest you imply that Orthodoxy is indifferent to the reasons for division.

IMO, the best way to handle this stuff is simply to post the subject as if it is simply News info which is of common interest to Cathanglodox. Then, we can privately pray on the issue as we see fit, and there's no pressure for anyone to join in with a "Praying" response or whatever. Besides, prayer requests deserve their own threads, not only so that they don't interrupt the flow of other threads, but also that their status can be monitored and updated and such.

And the rest of the thread can be devoted to discussions about the News stories and to discussions of apparent conflicts and underlying consonances between the Eastern and Western paradigms.

That's my 2¢, at least.
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Post by Del » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:30 am

I can't see it.

Regardless of whether the Coptic Church is mortal enemy of or close to unity with the Roman Church, we are still required to love and pray for them.

The next Coptic Pope and his people are facing brutal persecution. We should be bombarding heaven with prayers for deliverance and mercy.

And since Benedict and Shenouda shared a warm and genuine friendship that benefitted all Christians, it is fitting that we should hope for the same with our future pastors.

There is nothing about the 1700 year old schism that prevents us from praying for each other.
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Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:49 am

+JMJ+
Del wrote:Regardless of whether the Coptic Church is mortal enemy of or close to unity with the Roman Church, we are still required to love and pray for them... There is nothing about the 1700 year old schism that prevents us from praying for each other.
Straw-man argument.

I might pray for the Dalai Lama, both for himself as well as that he might work some good amongst those spiritually receptive to his leadership. But I'd never call on Catholics to publicly pray for him in his role as a spiritual leader, due to the danger of scandal: of giving the impression that there is a moral freedom to be indifferent to the Church.

In like manner, I might personally believe that Shankara is in Heaven (just as Aquinas believed that Aristotle saved his soul), but I wouldn't set up a Catholic shrine to him.

This is just like, Catholic 101. An ancient understanding that holds both sides of the coin in dynamic tension. Or does this basic Catholic dynamic tension go out the window when one wants something so much that they can almost taste it? Mmm... yummy, yummy reunion. Oh, it smells so good, I can't wait for it to get done baking. I'll just take a bite right now.
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Post by jo533281 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:58 am

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Thunktank wrote:
wosbald wrote:
Del wrote:Let us pray for the selection of the new Coptic Pope.

The chosen man may die a martyr.
Praying for reunification is one thing and a greatly desired thing, but praying as if it has already occurred is another. If everyone just keeps in mind that there's still a schism, still a canonical separation, then things should go fine. If people start acting too cozy, feelings may get hurt when someone says something that needs to be said and which reminds everyone of the unfortunate reality.
Do the canons exist to protect schisms or grace? No doubt they may well do both at once from time to time!
Precisely. Everything in it's own proper place.

For example, I wouldn't be surprised if Orthodox might privately pray for our bishops in some manner. But I would never expect you to issue a public call for Orthodox to pray for RC hierarchs in their official capacity as shepherds, lest you imply that Orthodoxy is indifferent to the reasons for division.

IMO, the best way to handle this stuff is simply to post the subject as if it is simply News info which is of common interest to Cathanglodox. Then, we can privately pray on the issue as we see fit, and there's no pressure for anyone to join in with a "Praying" response or whatever. Besides, prayer requests deserve their own threads, not only so that they don't interrupt the flow of other threads, but also that their status can be monitored and updated and such.

And the rest of the thread can be devoted to discussions about the News stories and to discussions of apparent conflicts and underlying consonances between the Eastern and Western paradigms.


That's my 2¢, at least.
+1 on the bold. Cathanglodox manners for the Cathanglodox thread. Sounds good and sensible.
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Post by TheRealAaron » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:15 am

wosbald wrote:But I'd never call on Catholics to publicly pray for him in his role as a spiritual leader, due to the danger of scandal: of giving the impression that there is a moral freedom to be indifferent to the Church.
Pope Bendict seems to be ok with publicly praying for the new Coptic pope. I don't see why the lay people of the Catholic Church shouldn't do the same.

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Post by Del » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:02 pm

TheRealAaron wrote:
wosbald wrote:But I'd never call on Catholics to publicly pray for him in his role as a spiritual leader, due to the danger of scandal: of giving the impression that there is a moral freedom to be indifferent to the Church.
Pope Bendict seems to be ok with publicly praying for the new Coptic pope. I don't see why the lay people of the Catholic Church shouldn't do the same.
And I think we should pray for unity as well, since Jesus prayed for unity.

I think we are obligated to pray with the Coptic Christians for a good Pope to serve them in their time of need and danger.
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