THE CATHANGLODOX THREAD

Where Fellowship and Camaraderie lives: that place where the CPS membership values fun and good fellowship as the cement of the community
Post Reply
User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 19297
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Post by wosbald » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:18 pm

+JMJ+
jo533281 wrote:
wosbald wrote:
jo533281 wrote:
wosbald wrote:
wosbald wrote:A buddy of mine (some variety of "Messianic Christian") sent me the following. I'm not particularly versed in this subject matter, but I was wondering what others might have to say about it...
Armenian Apostolic and Eastern Orthodox Christians, unlike Protestants, do not celebrate the birth of Yeshua HaMashiach on December 25th, due to differences between the Armenian, Julian and Gregorian calendars.

The Tanakh (Jewish Scriptures), however, doesn't identify the month in which the Messiah would be born, nor does the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) identify the exact date of His birth.

Scripture does give us an indication of the time of year.

“I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord." (Luke 2:10-11)



When was the Messiah Born?

“And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.” (Luke 2:8 )

Although Christmas is a well-established Christian tradition, Bible scholars know that December 25th is not the true date of Yeshua’s birth.

Winter in Israel is generally too cold at night to be out shepherding flocks, and yet at the time of Yeshua’s birth, the shepherds were in the fields watching over their flocks at night.

This December in Jerusalem, the temperature has been averaging about 60 degrees Fahrenheit, with the temperature dropping below 50 at night.

While the men in our ministry can get away with wearing short sleeve shirts for part of the day, around 4 p.m. as the sun goes down, it becomes quite cold, and they need to put on a warm jacket.

Another point to consider when trying to determine the time of year that Yeshua (Jesus) was born is the fact that winter in Israel is not a logical time to take a census because of the cold and rain. Occasionally, it even snows in Jerusalem. So the fact that Yoseph (Joseph) and Miriam (Mary) had gone to Beit Lechem (Bethlehem) to register for a census is a good indication that they were traveling in a warmer, drier season (Luke 2:1-5).

When they arrived, Jerusalem and Bethlehem were so crowded that no accommodations were available at the inn. Such crowding would have been more typical during one of the three pilgrimage feasts: Pesach (Passover), Shavuot (Pentecost) or Sukkot (Tabernacles/Booths).

“While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.” (Luke 2:6-7)

Likely, Yeshua was born at the end of the harvest, during the Biblical holiday of Sukkot, fulfilling the Scripture that one day the Lord would ‘tabernacle’ will His people. (Ezekiel 37:27)

“Look! God’s dwelling is now among the people, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.” (Revelation 21:3)
Bump for the Orthos. Anybody? Bueller?
I have heard priests and bishops talk about this very thing: that Christ was not born on Christmas day. Does anyone really care? I mean, the traditional date for Christ's crucifixion is March 25th, and yet Easter is a variable feast that changes every year. I could care less (that was for you, UB :wink: ) if it is the real date or not. It is about the birth of the Savior, not just in time, historically, but in us, continually. I have no preference either for the old calendar (January 6th) or the new calendar celebration except that on the old calendar I can celebrate Christmas outside the normal secular garbage that takes place on the 25th. Not sure what exactly you wanted here Wos. Just my 2 cents.
The point is that this school of thought says that Christ was born in something like Sept-Oct.
Right or wrong, I still shrug my shoulders and go to liturgy Christmas morning.
Though that's my attitude as well, it's not very helpful when talking to those who insist that the early Christians were clueless or syncretized the solstice.

Just looking for extra info, if anyone has any.
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 35402
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Post by UncleBob » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:18 pm

jo533281 wrote:I could care less (that was for you, UB :wink: )
Bastage!

Of course Jesus was most likely born some other time than December 25th. This is one of those examples where Catholicism adopted Roman culture to ease the transition from pagan to Catholic rule. No one really knows when Christ was born (there is now reasonable arguments for both sometime in the Fall and Spring) so they incorporated the date for the Feast of Mithras to ease the transition.

Here is a primer of sorts that argues a different position:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ ... lStory.htm

No one really knows for sure.
Last edited by UncleBob on Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
jo533281
like R2D2, just not as cool
like R2D2, just not as cool
Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:00 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Post by jo533281 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:21 pm

UncleBob wrote:
jo533281 wrote:I could care less (that was for you, UB :wink: )
Bastage!

Of course Jesus was most likely born some other time than December 25th. This is one of those examples where Catholicism adopted Roman culture to ease the transition from pagan to Catholic rule. No one really knows when Christ was born (there is now reasonable arguments for both sometime in the Fall and Spring) so they incorporated the date for the Feast of Mithras to ease the transition.
I had heard that the reasons for the move by Pope St. Gregory the Great (could be wrong on which Pope) are not really known at all and the movement to coincide with a pagan holiday is speculation. Still, I show up to liturgy on Christmas morning.
"This is not facebook, we are not here to boost your self esteem or hang on your every word." -Zed-

"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"

Most Likely to Draw Pirates with a Post

User avatar
jo533281
like R2D2, just not as cool
like R2D2, just not as cool
Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:00 pm
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Post by jo533281 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:23 pm

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
jo533281 wrote:
wosbald wrote:
jo533281 wrote:
wosbald wrote:
wosbald wrote:A buddy of mine (some variety of "Messianic Christian") sent me the following. I'm not particularly versed in this subject matter, but I was wondering what others might have to say about it...
Armenian Apostolic and Eastern Orthodox Christians, unlike Protestants, do not celebrate the birth of Yeshua HaMashiach on December 25th, due to differences between the Armenian, Julian and Gregorian calendars.

The Tanakh (Jewish Scriptures), however, doesn't identify the month in which the Messiah would be born, nor does the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) identify the exact date of His birth.

Scripture does give us an indication of the time of year.

“I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord." (Luke 2:10-11)



When was the Messiah Born?

“And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.” (Luke 2:8 )

Although Christmas is a well-established Christian tradition, Bible scholars know that December 25th is not the true date of Yeshua’s birth.

Winter in Israel is generally too cold at night to be out shepherding flocks, and yet at the time of Yeshua’s birth, the shepherds were in the fields watching over their flocks at night.

This December in Jerusalem, the temperature has been averaging about 60 degrees Fahrenheit, with the temperature dropping below 50 at night.

While the men in our ministry can get away with wearing short sleeve shirts for part of the day, around 4 p.m. as the sun goes down, it becomes quite cold, and they need to put on a warm jacket.

Another point to consider when trying to determine the time of year that Yeshua (Jesus) was born is the fact that winter in Israel is not a logical time to take a census because of the cold and rain. Occasionally, it even snows in Jerusalem. So the fact that Yoseph (Joseph) and Miriam (Mary) had gone to Beit Lechem (Bethlehem) to register for a census is a good indication that they were traveling in a warmer, drier season (Luke 2:1-5).

When they arrived, Jerusalem and Bethlehem were so crowded that no accommodations were available at the inn. Such crowding would have been more typical during one of the three pilgrimage feasts: Pesach (Passover), Shavuot (Pentecost) or Sukkot (Tabernacles/Booths).

“While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.” (Luke 2:6-7)

Likely, Yeshua was born at the end of the harvest, during the Biblical holiday of Sukkot, fulfilling the Scripture that one day the Lord would ‘tabernacle’ will His people. (Ezekiel 37:27)

“Look! God’s dwelling is now among the people, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.” (Revelation 21:3)
Bump for the Orthos. Anybody? Bueller?
I have heard priests and bishops talk about this very thing: that Christ was not born on Christmas day. Does anyone really care? I mean, the traditional date for Christ's crucifixion is March 25th, and yet Easter is a variable feast that changes every year. I could care less (that was for you, UB :wink: ) if it is the real date or not. It is about the birth of the Savior, not just in time, historically, but in us, continually. I have no preference either for the old calendar (January 6th) or the new calendar celebration except that on the old calendar I can celebrate Christmas outside the normal secular garbage that takes place on the 25th. Not sure what exactly you wanted here Wos. Just my 2 cents.
The point is that this school of thought says that Christ was born in something like Sept-Oct.
Right or wrong, I still shrug my shoulders and go to liturgy Christmas morning.
Though that's my attitude as well, it's not very helpful when talking to those who insist that the early Christians were clueless or syncretized the solstice.

Just looking for extra info, if anyone has any.
Those folks, from my experience anyway, are difficult to talk to about anything. If you think talking to a Prot or a Prot talking to a RC here on CPS is hard... you ain't seen nothing yet. I generally ignore them. They aren't worth the time. The softening of the heart must occur first, from the conversations I have experienced. Perhaps, or most likely, this isn't universal, but I can only share my experiences.
"This is not facebook, we are not here to boost your self esteem or hang on your every word." -Zed-

"It's all right, Andy! It's just bolognaise!"

Most Likely to Draw Pirates with a Post

User avatar
UncleBob
CPS Theological Dogmatician
CPS Theological Dogmatician
Posts: 35402
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:00 pm
Location: Lubbock, TX USA
Contact:

Post by UncleBob » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:30 pm

jo533281 wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
jo533281 wrote:I could care less (that was for you, UB :wink: )
Bastage!

Of course Jesus was most likely born some other time than December 25th. This is one of those examples where Catholicism adopted Roman culture to ease the transition from pagan to Catholic rule. No one really knows when Christ was born (there is now reasonable arguments for both sometime in the Fall and Spring) so they incorporated the date for the Feast of Mithras to ease the transition.
I had heard that the reasons for the move by Pope St. Gregory the Great (could be wrong on which Pope) are not really known at all and the movement to coincide with a pagan holiday is speculation. Still, I show up to liturgy on Christmas morning.
Most all cultures celebrate some sort of winter solstice rituals. By placing Christmas around this time helped acculturate those cultures into Christendom. I am surprised that wos or GiNi doesn't have the RCC records of this if they exist, I suppose.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 19297
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Post by wosbald » Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:48 pm

+JMJ+
jo533281 wrote:
wosbald wrote:Though that's my attitude as well, it's not very helpful when talking to those who insist that the early Christians were clueless or syncretized the solstice.

Just looking for extra info, if anyone has any.
Those folks, from my experience anyway, are difficult to talk to about anything. If you think talking to a Prot or a Prot talking to a RC here on CPS is hard... you ain't seen nothing yet. I generally ignore them. They aren't worth the time. The softening of the heart must occur first, from the conversations I have experienced. Perhaps, or most likely, this isn't universal, but I can only share my experiences.
He's my friend, and I've never found him to be unreasonable or a frother. Just looking for info. I told him that I was going to run this by Orthos that I know cuz they always seem to be up on this sort of historical stuff.
UncleBob wrote:Most all cultures celebrate some sort of winter solstice rituals. By placing Christmas around this time helped acculturate those cultures into Christendom. I am surprised that wos or GiNi doesn't have the RCC records of this if they exist, I suppose.
I used St. John Chrysostom's explanation...
  1. It was the seventh month of the Jewish Calendar in which Zachary's Vision / Elizabeth's Pregnancy occurs. The seventh month is Tishri which is late Sept. to early Oct.
  2. The Blessed Virgin Mary received the Angel Gabriel in the sixth month of Elizabeth's Pregnancy. This would put this event in about late Feb. to early Mar.
  3. Nine months later would put the birth of Christ at about late Dec. to early Jan.
Plus, I tried to explain that the Solstice was a Proto-Myth foreshadowing it's own completion within the Christic Über-Myth. But since I don't know how convincing this synthetic explanation will be, I'm looking for some more concrete and historical info like Chrysostom's above apologetic.
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

TNLawPiper
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards
BrotherOfTheBriar YouHeartlessBastards
Posts: 17389
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:00 pm

Post by TNLawPiper » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:34 pm

Today being Epiphany, we sang The First Noel during Communion. The juxtaposition of the acclamation "born is the King of Israel" with the image of His body hung upon the crucifix and His Body and Blood lain on the altar was very moving. It put words to the Incarnation like I have never experienced.

User avatar
Thunktank
Terminal Lance. Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Terminal Lance.  Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Posts: 21811
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Home Sweet California at the Beach!

Post by Thunktank » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:23 pm

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

“I grew up in a church with Ned Flanders. Down to the mustache. But so did a bunch of people I assume, which makes it so fun-diddly-unny.” -tuttle

User avatar
Thunktank
Terminal Lance. Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Terminal Lance.  Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Posts: 21811
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Home Sweet California at the Beach!

Post by Thunktank » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:51 pm

"According to Orthodox teaching, one of the essential characteristics of marriage is its indissolubility. Consequently, a legitimate marriage is dissolved only through death, or through an event which revokes the ecclesiastical significance of marriage, refutes its religious and moral foundation, and is in other words religious or moral death.

Divorce caused by religious or moral death occurs by itself when the basis of marriage ceases to function and the purpose of the marital bond is therefore frustrated. In such an instance, it is not the competent authority which dissolves the marriage. Rather, this authority only formally certifies that the legitimate marriage has lost its basis and has dissolved itself."

Divorce in church history.

"The Roman Catholic traditional view, canonical regulations on divorce and remarriage are based on two presuppostions. 1) Marriage is a legal contract, and for Christians is legally indissoluble. 2) The marriage contract concerns only earthly life and therefore, is legally dissolved by the death of one partner.
The Orthodox approach starts from different presuppositions. 1) Marriage is a sacrament conferred upon the partners in the Body of the Church through the priest’s blessing. As any sacrament, marriage pertains to the eternal life in the Kingdom of God and therefore, is not dissolved by the death of one partner. An eternal bond is created between them—“it is given to them” (Matthew 19:11). 2) As sacrament, marriage is not a magical act, but a gift of grace. The partners, being humans, may have made a mistake in soliciting the grace of marriage when they were not ready for it; or they may prove to be unable to make this grace grow to maturity. In those cases, the Church may admit the fact that the grace was not “received,” tolerate separation and allow remarriage. But, of course, she never encourages any remarriage—we have seen that even in the case of widowers—because of the eternal character of the marriage bond; but only tolerates it when, in concrete cases, it appears as the best solution for a given individual."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One of the things I'm trying to work through is the different practices concerning marriage, divorce/annulment and remarriage between the Orthodox, Eastern Catholic and Roman Catholic churches.

I wouldn't mind if any of you guys could add anything to this discussion. I'm trying to get down to the nuts and bolts of this issue.

Last night, my son asked my wife one of his endless "what if" questions. He wanted to know who my wife would pick between him and me if forced to do so. My wife of course refused to make such a choice, but it did get me thinking about how our society views marriage. Most of society would be offended if a parent tried to dissolve a parent/child relationship, but it's commonplace for people to at least consider it an option to divorce when things get tough. So it got me thinking once again about the church's role and message concerning marriage.

Edit: It is probably worthy of note around here for those not familiar with Eastern Christian practice, that eastern Catholics do in fact practice the same marriage rites that the Orthodox use, which would have to include an understanding of our marriage theology.

On a personal note, as I delve more deeply into this subject and compare Catholic/Orthodox canons concerning divorce/annulments it seems to that what the Orthodox call "divorce" is roughly equivalent to what the Catholic church calls an annulment. But because our particular theology of marriage has a greater level of Mystical (Sacramental) theology attached to it, it appears the reasons for recognizing the "dissolved" state of a marriage that never received it's proper level of grace is more broad than our Latin counterparts.

I will also add that the above link and quote concerning RCC beliefs is to me incomplete in that the RCC believes that while marriage is a legal contract on earth because of it's "natural" basis. It also recognizes a Christian marriage to be sacramental by virtue of both parties being Christian. Furthermore, both Catholic and Orthodox marriages include a blessing from the church via properly ordained persons.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

“I grew up in a church with Ned Flanders. Down to the mustache. But so did a bunch of people I assume, which makes it so fun-diddly-unny.” -tuttle

User avatar
fisherofpipes
Episcopal shot pourer
Episcopal shot pourer
Posts: 16091
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:00 pm
Location: Kilmarnock, VA

Post by fisherofpipes » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:08 pm

Weird. Had no idea this thread existed! I'm Episcopal by choice, my parents are pretty much athiests, and my brother is Orthodox only because he's married to a Bulgarian! I have tried to teach my family about spiritual matters, but I'm pretty much the only Christian.

So there is my input for now.
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo:
Favete linguis. Carmina non prius
Audita Musarum sacerdos
Virginibus puerisque canto.

Horace: Odes 3.1

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 19297
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Post by wosbald » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:16 pm

+JMJ+
Thunktank wrote:
The Roman Catholic traditional view, canonical regulations on divorce and remarriage are based on two presuppostions. 1) Marriage is a legal contract, and for Christians is legally indissoluble. 2) The marriage contract concerns only earthly life and therefore, is legally dissolved by the death of one partner.
I think that's a bit simplistic. The Catholic view has contractual, covenantal and sacramental aspects. It depends upon how one nuances the subject.
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
Thunktank
Terminal Lance. Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Terminal Lance.  Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Posts: 21811
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Home Sweet California at the Beach!

Post by Thunktank » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:19 pm

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
Thunktank wrote:
The Roman Catholic traditional view, canonical regulations on divorce and remarriage are based on two presuppostions. 1) Marriage is a legal contract, and for Christians is legally indissoluble. 2) The marriage contract concerns only earthly life and therefore, is legally dissolved by the death of one partner.
I think that's a bit simplistic. The Catholic view has contractual, covenantal and sacramental aspects. It depends upon how one nuances the subject.
:lol:

I take it that you didn't read my entire post?
I will also add that the above link and quote concerning RCC beliefs is to me incomplete in that the RCC believes that while marriage is a legal contract on earth because of it's "natural" basis. It also recognizes a Christian marriage to be sacramental by virtue of both parties being Christian. Furthermore, both Catholic and Orthodox marriages include a blessing from the church via properly ordained persons.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

“I grew up in a church with Ned Flanders. Down to the mustache. But so did a bunch of people I assume, which makes it so fun-diddly-unny.” -tuttle

User avatar
wosbald
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Crux' Cleveland Correspondent
Posts: 19297
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Post by wosbald » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:54 pm

+JMJ+
Thunktank wrote:
wosbald wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
The Roman Catholic traditional view, canonical regulations on divorce and remarriage are based on two presuppostions. 1) Marriage is a legal contract, and for Christians is legally indissoluble. 2) The marriage contract concerns only earthly life and therefore, is legally dissolved by the death of one partner.
I think that's a bit simplistic. The Catholic view has contractual, covenantal and sacramental aspects. It depends upon how one nuances the subject.
:lol:

I take it that you didn't read my entire post?
I will also add that the above link and quote concerning RCC beliefs is to me incomplete in that the RCC believes that while marriage is a legal contract on earth because of it's "natural" basis. It also recognizes a Christian marriage to be sacramental by virtue of both parties being Christian. Furthermore, both Catholic and Orthodox marriages include a blessing from the church via properly ordained persons.
I read it w/o the EDIT and didn't read it a 2nd time. Oh, well.

:lol:
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

User avatar
Hovannes
one lone Wollensak
one lone Wollensak
Posts: 23773
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: In the fertile San Joaquin Valley

Post by Hovannes » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:15 pm

The Armenian Apostolic Church celebrates Christmas on January 6.
I live in a climate very similar to Israel and livestock are brought in from across the western states to calve or lamb in the lush green foothills of the Sierra from December-February (the only time the foothills are lush and green,) so the "scholars" who claim it's too cold for sheep to be out in pasture on December 24th or January 6th in these climates are full of beans.
It is more sanitary for animals to give birth on grass, but predators can be a problem so the shepherds (or big mean sheep and cattle dogs here in California) are out looking after the flocks/herds.
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

User avatar
Thunktank
Terminal Lance. Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Terminal Lance.  Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Posts: 21811
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Home Sweet California at the Beach!

Post by Thunktank » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:58 pm

fisherofpipes wrote:Weird. Had no idea this thread existed! I'm Episcopal by choice, my parents are pretty much athiests, and my brother is Orthodox only because he's married to a Bulgarian! I have tried to teach my family about spiritual matters, but I'm pretty much the only Christian.

So there is my input for now.
Well, maybe it will start to catch on with your brother someday. Funny thing, today I dealt with this same sort of issue of folks being Orthodox by marriage/culture. My wife's new friend is Greek and was baptized in the Greek Orthodox church. She didn't however marry in the Orthodox church, sadly her priest was too strict with her soon to be husband by requiring him to attend too many classes when he couldn't (he was a doctor in his residency at that time). So they ended up getting married outside the church. Today, my wife's friend who has been taking an interest in the church again, took my wife to a woman's tea at my parish. One of the older ladies at my church insisted upon inviting them to come until they agreed. God bless her, she has had more success in getting my wife into parish life in one week than I have in ten years! Turns out that my wife and her Greek friend had a great time! There were some 90 women at the tea.

There is hope. I so badly NEED my wife to join with me in faith. Maybe we are turning a corner. I hope, hope, hope. :D

Of course my wife has always been supportive of ME being active and faithful in the church. She said I'm a happier person when I am. Maybe it will work on her too! :lol:
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

“I grew up in a church with Ned Flanders. Down to the mustache. But so did a bunch of people I assume, which makes it so fun-diddly-unny.” -tuttle

User avatar
Hovannes
one lone Wollensak
one lone Wollensak
Posts: 23773
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: In the fertile San Joaquin Valley

Post by Hovannes » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:28 am

Thunktank wrote:
fisherofpipes wrote:Weird. Had no idea this thread existed! I'm Episcopal by choice, my parents are pretty much athiests, and my brother is Orthodox only because he's married to a Bulgarian! I have tried to teach my family about spiritual matters, but I'm pretty much the only Christian.

So there is my input for now.
Well, maybe it will start to catch on with your brother someday. Funny thing, today I dealt with this same sort of issue of folks being Orthodox by marriage/culture. My wife's new friend is Greek and was baptized in the Greek Orthodox church. She didn't however marry in the Orthodox church, sadly her priest was too strict with her soon to be husband by requiring him to attend too many classes when he couldn't (he was a doctor in his residency at that time). So they ended up getting married outside the church. Today, my wife's friend who has been taking an interest in the church again, took my wife to a woman's tea at my parish. One of the older ladies at my church insisted upon inviting them to come until they agreed. God bless her, she has had more success in getting my wife into parish life in one week than I have in ten years! Turns out that my wife and her Greek friend had a great time! There were some 90 women at the tea.

There is hope. I so badly NEED my wife to join with me in faith. Maybe we are turning a corner. I hope, hope, hope. :D

Of course my wife has always been supportive of ME being active and faithful in the church. She said I'm a happier person when I am. Maybe it will work on her too! :lol:
Pray, Thunk.
Sixteen years after marrying my bride in the Catholic church, she's swimming the Tiber this Easter Vigil. :D
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

User avatar
Thunktank
Terminal Lance. Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Terminal Lance.  Perpetual Sea Lawyer. Unicorn Aficionado
Posts: 21811
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Home Sweet California at the Beach!

Post by Thunktank » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:18 am

Hovannes wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
fisherofpipes wrote:Weird. Had no idea this thread existed! I'm Episcopal by choice, my parents are pretty much athiests, and my brother is Orthodox only because he's married to a Bulgarian! I have tried to teach my family about spiritual matters, but I'm pretty much the only Christian.

So there is my input for now.
Well, maybe it will start to catch on with your brother someday. Funny thing, today I dealt with this same sort of issue of folks being Orthodox by marriage/culture. My wife's new friend is Greek and was baptized in the Greek Orthodox church. She didn't however marry in the Orthodox church, sadly her priest was too strict with her soon to be husband by requiring him to attend too many classes when he couldn't (he was a doctor in his residency at that time). So they ended up getting married outside the church. Today, my wife's friend who has been taking an interest in the church again, took my wife to a woman's tea at my parish. One of the older ladies at my church insisted upon inviting them to come until they agreed. God bless her, she has had more success in getting my wife into parish life in one week than I have in ten years! Turns out that my wife and her Greek friend had a great time! There were some 90 women at the tea.

There is hope. I so badly NEED my wife to join with me in faith. Maybe we are turning a corner. I hope, hope, hope. :D

Of course my wife has always been supportive of ME being active and faithful in the church. She said I'm a happier person when I am. Maybe it will work on her too! :lol:
Pray, Thunk.
Sixteen years after marrying my bride in the Catholic church, she's swimming the Tiber this Easter Vigil. :D
Yes, you guys are an inspiration. More than once I've gone on with the feeling that our situation would simply never change in that regard.

Some of it I think is that my approach to God is very different from what she needs. She just hasn't been feeling it herself yet. Not to mention, my wife, while baptized a Catholic, was raised as a secularist. She's one of those well educated types that believes religion is quaint and cute and not for her.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

“I grew up in a church with Ned Flanders. Down to the mustache. But so did a bunch of people I assume, which makes it so fun-diddly-unny.” -tuttle

User avatar
fisherofpipes
Episcopal shot pourer
Episcopal shot pourer
Posts: 16091
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:00 pm
Location: Kilmarnock, VA

Post by fisherofpipes » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:10 am

Thunktank wrote:
fisherofpipes wrote:Weird. Had no idea this thread existed! I'm Episcopal by choice, my parents are pretty much athiests, and my brother is Orthodox only because he's married to a Bulgarian! I have tried to teach my family about spiritual matters, but I'm pretty much the only Christian.

So there is my input for now.
Well, maybe it will start to catch on with your brother someday. Funny thing, today I dealt with this same sort of issue of folks being Orthodox by marriage/culture. My wife's new friend is Greek and was baptized in the Greek Orthodox church. She didn't however marry in the Orthodox church, sadly her priest was too strict with her soon to be husband by requiring him to attend too many classes when he couldn't (he was a doctor in his residency at that time). So they ended up getting married outside the church. Today, my wife's friend who has been taking an interest in the church again, took my wife to a woman's tea at my parish. One of the older ladies at my church insisted upon inviting them to come until they agreed. God bless her, she has had more success in getting my wife into parish life in one week than I have in ten years! Turns out that my wife and her Greek friend had a great time! There were some 90 women at the tea.

There is hope. I so badly NEED my wife to join with me in faith. Maybe we are turning a corner. I hope, hope, hope. :D

Of course my wife has always been supportive of ME being active and faithful in the church. She said I'm a happier person when I am. Maybe it will work on her too! :lol:
As to my family, my parents are good people and mostly act in a Christian way (certainly as much as I do, come to think of it) but are somewhat materialistic, thinking pretty much that it's all about money, and can tend to judge people based on this viewpoint.

My brother is very spiritual, and does not dismiss the idea of a supreme being out of hand, but both he and my parents are turned off by organized religion for the most part.

Just by way of clarification. I was at one point in my life closer to being a militant atheist than any of them!
Odi profanum vulgus et arceo:
Favete linguis. Carmina non prius
Audita Musarum sacerdos
Virginibus puerisque canto.

Horace: Odes 3.1

User avatar
Hovannes
one lone Wollensak
one lone Wollensak
Posts: 23773
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: In the fertile San Joaquin Valley

Post by Hovannes » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:22 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Hovannes wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
fisherofpipes wrote:Weird. Had no idea this thread existed! I'm Episcopal by choice, my parents are pretty much athiests, and my brother is Orthodox only because he's married to a Bulgarian! I have tried to teach my family about spiritual matters, but I'm pretty much the only Christian.

So there is my input for now.
Well, maybe it will start to catch on with your brother someday. Funny thing, today I dealt with this same sort of issue of folks being Orthodox by marriage/culture. My wife's new friend is Greek and was baptized in the Greek Orthodox church. She didn't however marry in the Orthodox church, sadly her priest was too strict with her soon to be husband by requiring him to attend too many classes when he couldn't (he was a doctor in his residency at that time). So they ended up getting married outside the church. Today, my wife's friend who has been taking an interest in the church again, took my wife to a woman's tea at my parish. One of the older ladies at my church insisted upon inviting them to come until they agreed. God bless her, she has had more success in getting my wife into parish life in one week than I have in ten years! Turns out that my wife and her Greek friend had a great time! There were some 90 women at the tea.

There is hope. I so badly NEED my wife to join with me in faith. Maybe we are turning a corner. I hope, hope, hope. :D

Of course my wife has always been supportive of ME being active and faithful in the church. She said I'm a happier person when I am. Maybe it will work on her too! :lol:
Pray, Thunk.
Sixteen years after marrying my bride in the Catholic church, she's swimming the Tiber this Easter Vigil. :D
Yes, you guys are an inspiration. More than once I've gone on with the feeling that our situation would simply never change in that regard.

Some of it I think is that my approach to God is very different from what she needs. She just hasn't been feeling it herself yet. Not to mention, my wife, while baptized a Catholic, was raised as a secularist. She's one of those well educated types that believes religion is quaint and cute and not for her.
Put it all in the hands of God, my friend. Live out your faith to the fullest. And pray.
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

User avatar
serapion
I'll make yer head spin!
I'll make yer head spin!
Posts: 2389
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:00 pm
Location: New Yorker from Connecticut, now exiled to the Republic of Texas
Contact:

Post by serapion » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:41 pm

Thunktank wrote:
fisherofpipes wrote:Weird. Had no idea this thread existed! I'm Episcopal by choice, my parents are pretty much athiests, and my brother is Orthodox only because he's married to a Bulgarian! I have tried to teach my family about spiritual matters, but I'm pretty much the only Christian.

So there is my input for now.
Well, maybe it will start to catch on with your brother someday. Funny thing, today I dealt with this same sort of issue of folks being Orthodox by marriage/culture. My wife's new friend is Greek and was baptized in the Greek Orthodox church. She didn't however marry in the Orthodox church, sadly her priest was too strict with her soon to be husband by requiring him to attend too many classes when he couldn't (he was a doctor in his residency at that time). So they ended up getting married outside the church. Today, my wife's friend who has been taking an interest in the church again, took my wife to a woman's tea at my parish. One of the older ladies at my church insisted upon inviting them to come until they agreed. God bless her, she has had more success in getting my wife into parish life in one week than I have in ten years! Turns out that my wife and her Greek friend had a great time! There were some 90 women at the tea.

There is hope. I so badly NEED my wife to join with me in faith. Maybe we are turning a corner. I hope, hope, hope. :D

Of course my wife has always been supportive of ME being active and faithful in the church. She said I'm a happier person when I am. Maybe it will work on her too! :lol:
May the Lord, who loves mankind, hear the cry of your heart and grant you your desire and his mercy.
I am a pipe smoker, the very embodiment of mellow.
I let nothing chap my ass.

Post Reply