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Post by Brigid » Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:25 am

As far as Christmas, the most exhaustive research I've found was in this article.

Relevant quotes:
The earliest historical source that exists which places a pagan holiday on December 25 is the proclamation by Roman Emperor Aurelian of a celebration of Sol Invictus on that day in 274 CE.20 The earliest Christian reference to December 25 as the birth of Christ, however, dates from 202 CE. ...

Given that Aurelian’s religious reforms, like those of Julian the Apostate a century later, seem largely to have been an attempt to undermine Christianity by introducing popular elements of it into paganism, thereby theoretically making paganism more attractive, it seems far more probable that Aurelian’s institution of a celebration of Sol Invictus on December 25 was an attempt to usurp a Christian holiday already established and widely celebrated on that date, rather than the reverse.
A primary concern amongst early Christians was establishing an accurate and uniform date for the celebration of Pascha.22 Various formulas and historical sources were put forward by early Christians in their attempts to achieve this goal. By the third century, two dates had emerged as standard among Christians; in the West 25 March (you may have noted this date in the quote above from St. Hippolytus of Rome) became the standard date for Christ’s death and in the East Christians believed Christ to have died on 6 April.23

Drawing upon an ancient Jewish tradition that holds that a prophet enters life (that is, is conceived) and leaves it (that is, dies) on the same day, Christians concluded that Christ must have also been conceived on 25 March or 6 April (depending upon which date was held to).24 Exactly nine months (the duration of a “perfect” human pregnancy) after 25 March is 25 December; exactly nine months after 6 April is 6 January. As a result, Christians came to commemorate Christ’s birth on these two dates; in the West the former was celebrated and in the East the latter.

To summarize: Even though Western Christians celebrate Christmas on 25 December and most Orthodox Christians celebrate it on 7 January (which is also 25 December) and some Orthodox Christians celebrate it on 25 December, all Christians (except the Armenians!) celebrate Christmas on 25 December. Complicated stuff? Yeah, a little…
TL;DR:
1) There's good evidence that the pagan holidays started after Christians began celebrating Christmas on that date.
2) Christmas's date was determined by an old Jewish ritual and the date of the Resurrection.
3) The Old Calendar's December 25 may be the civil calendar's January 7, but we all celebrate Christmas on December 25.
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Post by Thunktank » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:06 am

Mexican priest wears super hero vestments for children's mass. It appears that he used a water gun with holy water too.

Really!? Just when I think . . .

I don't understand how this is allowed to happen. :?
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Post by Thunktank » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:55 am

I watch EWTN sometimes. A few worthwhile programs to watch. Anyway, I just thought I'd mention that far too often when the Orthodox are mentioned on that network it's often filled with misinformation. Then there are times I end up feeling down right depressed after watching EWTN because someone flat out disrespects Orthodoxy in some form or another. I shouldn't be surprised and I know the Orthodox can be guilty of this against the Catholic Church and practice as well. But I guess I'm just starting to come to grips that the schism will never end. Most probably already know this but I guess I've been hoping. But, when I hear Catholics on EWTN talk about certain things in opposition to the Orthodox I can't help but think that the Catholics have a fundamentally different spirit. Reunion is hopeless.

Last night I watched a program where a priest or bishop (not sure which) was brought in to discuss possible changes in the way the Catholic Church may deal with Catholics who divorced and remarried. There was discussion that perhaps there ought to be some way to allow those people to return to taking the Eucharist again at some point. The host of the show brought up the fact that some Catholics were looking to the Orthodox for a solution to this problem. The clergyman obviously made some gesture that the host easily identified as disapproval, the host laughed as though the very idea was preposterous in agreement with his guest speaker. Then they went on and complained that to take Orthodox ideas seriously would mean that they would need to accept "different kinds of marriage." But for me, the icing on the cake to this whole conversation was that they were quite serious about streamlining the annulment process and broadening the definition of an invalid marriage. <redacted_emoji> :facepalm:

Seriously! :x

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Post by ElgarAlienPooh » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:28 am

Mexican priest wears super hero vestments for children's mass. It appears that he used a water gun with holy water too.

I don't understand how this is allowed to happen.
From what I'm told, in Pittsburgh, RC priests wearing black & gold vestments during football season are business as usual.

I think it's an effort to connect with people who are going around chronically disconnected.

In a similar case, I recall a Chaplain at Grove City College (Presbyterian w/ daily, mandatory chapel services) who, unwilling to earn an easy and comfortable living by just showing up and going through the motions with people who were obviously indifferent, led what turned out to be his final service dressed in a clown suit, complete with makeup. (Sermon tailored to that theme). (The administration was NOT amused).

"A" for effort, IMO.

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Post by Kerdy » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:53 am

Thunktank wrote:Mexican priest wears super hero vestments for children's mass. It appears that he used a water gun with holy water too.

Really!? Just when I think . . .

I don't understand how this is allowed to happen. :?
Disengaged Bishops?
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Post by Monarchist » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:59 am

Some time ago, I read an article in a magazine published by one of the
High Mass churches - I don't remember which - how they had conducted a clown mass. All the celebrants wore clown outfits with red nose :clown: . There were photos. 8O
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Post by Monarchist » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:04 am

"Never say that God is just. If He were just you would be in hell. Rely only on His injustice which is mercy, love, and forgiveness." - St. Isaac the Syrian

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Post by Hovannes » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:00 pm

Very disturbing, as is the puppet mass. The "Smoke of Satan" stuff 8O
A good friend ended up at such a Mass by accident---she took off her shoes and threw them into the aisle and walked out bare foot because she said she was walking on ground soaked with the blood of martyrs.
She didn't wait around for the clown's rebuttal (if the clown even noticed)
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Post by Del » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:56 pm

Thunktank wrote:I watch EWTN sometimes. A few worthwhile programs to watch. Anyway, I just thought I'd mention that far too often when the Orthodox are mentioned on that network it's often filled with misinformation. Then there are times I end up feeling down right depressed after watching EWTN because someone flat out disrespects Orthodoxy in some form or another. I shouldn't be surprised and I know the Orthodox can be guilty of this against the Catholic Church and practice as well. But I guess I'm just starting to come to grips that the schism will never end. Most probably already know this but I guess I've been hoping. But, when I hear Catholics on EWTN talk about certain things in opposition to the Orthodox I can't help but think that the Catholics have a fundamentally different spirit. Reunion is hopeless.

Last night I watched a program where a priest or bishop (not sure which) was brought in to discuss possible changes in the way the Catholic Church may deal with Catholics who divorced and remarried. There was discussion that perhaps there ought to be some way to allow those people to return to taking the Eucharist again at some point. The host of the show brought up the fact that some Catholics were looking to the Orthodox for a solution to this problem. The clergyman obviously made some gesture that the host easily identified as disapproval, the host laughed as though the very idea was preposterous in agreement with his guest speaker. Then they went on and complained that to take Orthodox ideas seriously would mean that they would need to accept "different kinds of marriage." But for me, the icing on the cake to this whole conversation was that they were quite serious about streamlining the annulment process and broadening the definition of an invalid marriage. <redacted_emoji> :facepalm:

Seriously! :x
I didn't see this, but I has the sad :(

I am not familiar with the Orthodox canon law concerning valid and invalid marriage. I am quite certain that no one has explained to me what details of Orthodox law are problematic.

I know the problems that are found in Roman Canon Law.

I know that there are people who want us to dispense with canonical form. Instead of determining whether the sacrament was invalid, they want to us ignore the original marriage and divorce for "pastoral" reasons -- which really aren't "reasons" at all, just sentiments and arbitrary choices.

People want an easy way to ignore Jesus' firm teaching about marriage. (Today's reading, as luck has it!)
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Post by Monarchist » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:15 pm

Del wrote:
Thunktank wrote:I watch EWTN sometimes. A few worthwhile programs to watch. Anyway, I just thought I'd mention that far too often when the Orthodox are mentioned on that network it's often filled with misinformation. Then there are times I end up feeling down right depressed after watching EWTN because someone flat out disrespects Orthodoxy in some form or another. I shouldn't be surprised and I know the Orthodox can be guilty of this against the Catholic Church and practice as well. But I guess I'm just starting to come to grips that the schism will never end. Most probably already know this but I guess I've been hoping. But, when I hear Catholics on EWTN talk about certain things in opposition to the Orthodox I can't help but think that the Catholics have a fundamentally different spirit. Reunion is hopeless.

Last night I watched a program where a priest or bishop (not sure which) was brought in to discuss possible changes in the way the Catholic Church may deal with Catholics who divorced and remarried. There was discussion that perhaps there ought to be some way to allow those people to return to taking the Eucharist again at some point. The host of the show brought up the fact that some Catholics were looking to the Orthodox for a solution to this problem. The clergyman obviously made some gesture that the host easily identified as disapproval, the host laughed as though the very idea was preposterous in agreement with his guest speaker. Then they went on and complained that to take Orthodox ideas seriously would mean that they would need to accept "different kinds of marriage." But for me, the icing on the cake to this whole conversation was that they were quite serious about streamlining the annulment process and broadening the definition of an invalid marriage. <redacted_emoji> :facepalm:

Seriously! :x
I didn't see this, but I has the sad :(

I am not familiar with the Orthodox canon law concerning valid and invalid marriage. I am quite certain that no one has explained to me what details of Orthodox law are problematic.

I know the problems that are found in Roman Canon Law.

I know that there are people who want us to dispense with canonical form. Instead of determining whether the sacrament was invalid, they want to us ignore the original marriage and divorce for "pastoral" reasons -- which really aren't "reasons" at all, just sentiments and arbitrary choices.

People want an easy way to ignore Jesus' firm teaching about marriage. (Today's reading, as luck has it!)
The Orthodox can get pretty twitchy when it comes to these things.

A few years back, an MP priest performed a gay marriage. The MP seized the Antimins, defrocked the priest, and actually razed the church to the ground.
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Post by Del » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:25 pm

Monarchist wrote:The Orthodox can get pretty twitchy when it comes to these things.

A few years back, an MP priest performed a gay marriage. The MP seized the Antimins, defrocked the priest, and actually razed the church to the ground.
MP = Moscow Patriarchate

I looked it up.

The antimins is an altar cloth that signifies the faculty (authorization) from the bishop to celebrate the Divine Liturgy.
Wikipedia wrote:The antimins must be consecrated and signed by a bishop. The antimins, together with the chrism remain the property of the bishop, and are the means by which a bishop indicates his permission for the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments) to be celebrated in his absence. It is, in effect, a church's licence to hold divine services; were a bishop to withdraw his permission to serve the Mysteries, he would do so by taking the antimins and chrism back. Whenever a bishop visits a church or monastery under his jurisdiction, he will enter the altar (sanctuary) and inspect the antimins to be sure that it has been properly cared for, and that it is in fact the one that he issued.
Although razing the church building is also clearly definitive.
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Post by Monarchist » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

Del wrote:
Monarchist wrote:The Orthodox can get pretty twitchy when it comes to these things.

A few years back, an MP priest performed a gay marriage. The MP seized the Antimins, defrocked the priest, and actually razed the church to the ground.
MP = Moscow Patriarchate

I looked it up.

The antimins is an altar cloth that signifies the faculty (authorization) from the bishop to celebrate the Divine Liturgy.
Wikipedia wrote:The antimins must be consecrated and signed by a bishop. The antimins, together with the chrism remain the property of the bishop, and are the means by which a bishop indicates his permission for the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments) to be celebrated in his absence. It is, in effect, a church's licence to hold divine services; were a bishop to withdraw his permission to serve the Mysteries, he would do so by taking the antimins and chrism back. Whenever a bishop visits a church or monastery under his jurisdiction, he will enter the altar (sanctuary) and inspect the antimins to be sure that it has been properly cared for, and that it is in fact the one that he issued.
Although razing the church building is also clearly definitive.
Sorry, I sometimes forget where I am.
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Post by Del » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:27 pm

All the same, a same-sex wedding ceremony is an outright defiance from the start.


Our problem in this culture of divorce is that many people get married under all sorts of circumstances, then get divorced.... and then one member of the marriage wants to marry again, in a sacramental marriage in the Church.

Jesus made is clear -- divorce and remarriage is an act of adultery. Then Jesus made it less clear: He said "except in cases of unlawful marriage."

That leaves us with the problem of discerning what made the marriage unlawful in the first place. We need to respect the sacrament and provide justice.

But great wisdom and mercy fail to satisfy the cluster-mangled mess that modern culture has made of marriage. We can't solve the problem with a reform of canon law -- we need to re-evangelize the culture.

Question to the Orthodox gents: How do you handle cases of divorce and remarriage? How do the Orthodox determine when to allow persons with multiple spouses to receive the Sacraments?
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Post by Thunktank » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:36 pm

Del wrote:
Thunktank wrote:I watch EWTN sometimes. A few worthwhile programs to watch. Anyway, I just thought I'd mention that far too often when the Orthodox are mentioned on that network it's often filled with misinformation. Then there are times I end up feeling down right depressed after watching EWTN because someone flat out disrespects Orthodoxy in some form or another. I shouldn't be surprised and I know the Orthodox can be guilty of this against the Catholic Church and practice as well. But I guess I'm just starting to come to grips that the schism will never end. Most probably already know this but I guess I've been hoping. But, when I hear Catholics on EWTN talk about certain things in opposition to the Orthodox I can't help but think that the Catholics have a fundamentally different spirit. Reunion is hopeless.

Last night I watched a program where a priest or bishop (not sure which) was brought in to discuss possible changes in the way the Catholic Church may deal with Catholics who divorced and remarried. There was discussion that perhaps there ought to be some way to allow those people to return to taking the Eucharist again at some point. The host of the show brought up the fact that some Catholics were looking to the Orthodox for a solution to this problem. The clergyman obviously made some gesture that the host easily identified as disapproval, the host laughed as though the very idea was preposterous in agreement with his guest speaker. Then they went on and complained that to take Orthodox ideas seriously would mean that they would need to accept "different kinds of marriage." But for me, the icing on the cake to this whole conversation was that they were quite serious about streamlining the annulment process and broadening the definition of an invalid marriage. <redacted_emoji> :facepalm:

Seriously! :x
I didn't see this, but I has the sad :(

I am not familiar with the Orthodox canon law concerning valid and invalid marriage. I am quite certain that no one has explained to me what details of Orthodox law are problematic.

I know the problems that are found in Roman Canon Law.

I know that there are people who want us to dispense with canonical form. Instead of determining whether the sacrament was invalid, they want to us ignore the original marriage and divorce for "pastoral" reasons -- which really aren't "reasons" at all, just sentiments and arbitrary choices.

People want an easy way to ignore Jesus' firm teaching about marriage. (Today's reading, as luck has it!)
First of all, "pastoral" isn't a bad word. It often appears to me that many Catholics don't like anything that smacks of pastoral and yet other Catholics love the idea and botch it all up. It seems to work well enough for those who are almost always faithful and generally do good, but it's the ones who struggle that I'm worried about here. The church is supposed to be for the sick after all!

But, this isn't an issue of valid vs invalid marriages from the Orthodox POV. At least not in the same way. We believe marriage functions for the purpose of salvation first and foremost and that it's not merely meant for temporal concerns but also for eternal ones. All other purposes in marriage fall under that primary purpose. The church does not create "divorces." In other words, we don't believe that the church has the authority to create a condition of divorce. But we do believe that a marriage, even a valid marriage, may end up ceasing to function as a marriage and be hopelessly incapable of ever doing so again. If the local church deems that a marriage no longer functions as such, it may determine that the persons in said marriage are in a dangerous position to their well being and recognize that a marriage has in fact died.

In these cases, the Church may condescend upon the sinful weakness of those who suffer in their failure and declare that a marriage has died. Like any other sin, confession and a period of penance will permit the sinner back into Sacramental life and perhaps even remarriage, once again, for the help of salvation.

This was practiced by canon law even when the east and west still shared communion. Of course the theology about all this should be expanded upon, but I'll keep it here for now and just say that what I see of the Catholic Church who deals with these tragedies, I don't leave believing that God's gracious mercy is considered enough. It is because the Orthodox Church understands the gravity and sinfulness of divorce that it condescends upon the sinners and shows them grace, mercy, life and peace even from such grave sins as a failed marriage.

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Post by Brigid » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:48 am

Thunktank wrote:
Del wrote:
Thunktank wrote:I watch EWTN sometimes. A few worthwhile programs to watch. Anyway, I just thought I'd mention that far too often when the Orthodox are mentioned on that network it's often filled with misinformation. Then there are times I end up feeling down right depressed after watching EWTN because someone flat out disrespects Orthodoxy in some form or another. I shouldn't be surprised and I know the Orthodox can be guilty of this against the Catholic Church and practice as well. But I guess I'm just starting to come to grips that the schism will never end. Most probably already know this but I guess I've been hoping. But, when I hear Catholics on EWTN talk about certain things in opposition to the Orthodox I can't help but think that the Catholics have a fundamentally different spirit. Reunion is hopeless.

Last night I watched a program where a priest or bishop (not sure which) was brought in to discuss possible changes in the way the Catholic Church may deal with Catholics who divorced and remarried. There was discussion that perhaps there ought to be some way to allow those people to return to taking the Eucharist again at some point. The host of the show brought up the fact that some Catholics were looking to the Orthodox for a solution to this problem. The clergyman obviously made some gesture that the host easily identified as disapproval, the host laughed as though the very idea was preposterous in agreement with his guest speaker. Then they went on and complained that to take Orthodox ideas seriously would mean that they would need to accept "different kinds of marriage." But for me, the icing on the cake to this whole conversation was that they were quite serious about streamlining the annulment process and broadening the definition of an invalid marriage. <redacted_emoji> :facepalm:

Seriously! :x
I didn't see this, but I has the sad :(

I am not familiar with the Orthodox canon law concerning valid and invalid marriage. I am quite certain that no one has explained to me what details of Orthodox law are problematic.

I know the problems that are found in Roman Canon Law.

I know that there are people who want us to dispense with canonical form. Instead of determining whether the sacrament was invalid, they want to us ignore the original marriage and divorce for "pastoral" reasons -- which really aren't "reasons" at all, just sentiments and arbitrary choices.

People want an easy way to ignore Jesus' firm teaching about marriage. (Today's reading, as luck has it!)
First of all, "pastoral" isn't a bad word. It often appears to me that many Catholics don't like anything that smacks of pastoral and yet other Catholics love the idea and botch it all up. It seems to work well enough for those who are almost always faithful and generally do good, but it's the ones who struggle that I'm worried about here. The church is supposed to be for the sick after all!

But, this isn't an issue of valid vs invalid marriages from the Orthodox POV. At least not in the same way. We believe marriage functions for the purpose of salvation first and foremost and that it's not merely meant for temporal concerns but also for eternal ones. All other purposes in marriage fall under that primary purpose. The church does not create "divorces." In other words, we don't believe that the church has the authority to create a condition of divorce. But we do believe that a marriage, even a valid marriage, may end up ceasing to function as a marriage and be hopelessly incapable of ever doing so again. If the local church deems that a marriage no longer functions as such, it may determine that the persons in said marriage are in a dangerous position to their well being and recognize that a marriage has in fact died.

In these cases, the Church may condescend upon the sinful weakness of those who suffer in their failure and declare that a marriage has died. Like any other sin, confession and a period of penance will permit the sinner back into Sacramental life and perhaps even remarriage, once again, for the help of salvation.

This was practiced by canon law even when the east and west still shared communion. Of course the theology about all this should be expanded upon, but I'll keep it here for now and just say that what I see of the Catholic Church who deals with these tragedies, I don't leave believing that God's gracious mercy is considered enough. It is because the Orthodox Church understands the gravity and sinfulness of divorce that it condescends upon the sinners and shows them grace, mercy, life and peace even from such grave sins as a failed marriage.
Have I ever mentioned how much I like how you answer questions like these? Well said, Thunk.

The only thing I'd add is that in this, as in everything, "sin" is understood as "missing the mark; a wound; something that separates us from God."
I have an Orthodox friend who divorced her abusive husband. Her priest urged her to leave for her wellbeing and her children's, but of course the experience wounded her heart. And she was not permitted to take Communion for a year.

She speaks very fondly of that year; she wasn't ready for Communion, she needed that time. The Church absolutely ministered to her during that year, it was penance and time for repentance and healing, but it wasn't punishment. She's now very happily remarried to a wonderful Orthodox man. But that year without Communion was crucial to her healing.
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Post by Del » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:25 pm

Thank you, Thunk & Brigid! I will be glad to have this understanding in many future discussions, I'm sure.

Pastoral is a great word. But "pastoral," in the scare quotes, is code for excusing license under a pretense of mercy. It is dismissing the sin out-of-hand, without offering that opportunity for repentance and penance and forgiveness.

In this particular case, if we dispense with canonical form we may end up with post-modern Catholics thinking "Divorce and remarriage is okay now. YAY!!!"

Our problem is that our culture has forgotten what marriage really is. As far as the world is concerned, "marriage" is just a tax-filing status that is desired by certain cohabitating couples.

While we may be able to improve our law concerning marriage and our pastoral care concerning divorced persons -- we will not save our culture by changing the Church. As always, we have to re-evangelize the culture.

We can look at our law concerning divorced persons, but our real problem is the prevalence of couples cohabitating without marriage.
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Post by Thunktank » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:09 pm

Del wrote:Thank you, Thunk & Brigid! I will be glad to have this understanding in many future discussions, I'm sure.

Pastoral is a great word. But "pastoral," in the scare quotes, is code for excusing license under a pretense of mercy. It is dismissing the sin out-of-hand, without offering that opportunity for repentance and penance and forgiveness.
I understand how this problem can exist but I don't see much of it among faithful Orthodox. Mercy, repentance and penance all go hand in hand to us. I think this is largely because, as Brigid pointed out above, our view of sin doesn't turn the sinner into a criminal class who tries to get away with infractions whenever possible or redefine what a sin is. But rather it's the unhappy situation of being out of touch with joy and peace that comes from God. So repentance and penance have certain medicinal properties to restore us to that life in Christ where we know we belong.
In this particular case, if we dispense with canonical form we may end up with post-modern Catholics thinking "Divorce and remarriage is okay now. YAY!!!"
I wonder how accurate that is. Most people don't want divorce, but some people who are married just don't know what love is well enough to sustain a marriage. They don't think it's worth it to stay married. So they don't work out their salvation and continue in love with their spouse. I think the concentration must be upon the salvic purpose of marriage and how our joy and happiness depends upon living in a married state according to God's plan.

I guess I don't see how recognizing the fact that a divorce has happened, automatically means that it's OK. It certainly isn't OK. At the same time, those who have divorced and remarriage without the excuse of an annulment still probably need a way back to the Sacraments after a reasonable period of penance. The canons ought to reflect the needs of people even in their sin and weakness in order to help them stand back up. I wonder how many former remarried Catholics walk away never to return? Mercy is so important, God is abundant in mercy because sinners are abundant in their sins.

Regardless, those remarried Catholics who faithfully keep coming to mass year after year after year are doing a commendable thing no doubt. They no doubt must have a personal knowledge of the mercy found in that extended period of time. But I really wonder just how helpful it is to rest who simply have not yet formed the degree of love to do this.
Our problem is that our culture has forgotten what marriage really is. As far as the world is concerned, "marriage" is just a tax-filing status that is desired by certain cohabitating couples.

While we may be able to improve our law concerning marriage and our pastoral care concerning divorced persons -- we will not save our culture by changing the Church. As always, we have to re-evangelize the culture.
+1
We can look at our law concerning divorced persons, but our real problem is the prevalence of couples cohabitating without marriage.
I don't know. Both are very serious problems if the meaning of Holy Matrimony is considered. Not sure there's one problem worse than the other. Both are proofs that people don't know what marriage is. Which takes us back to the need to evangelize.

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OldWorldSwine
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Post by OldWorldSwine » Sat May 17, 2014 2:31 pm

Patriarch to meet Pope in Jerusalem!

http://eu.greekreporter.com/2014/05/09/ ... hisms-end/
"There's what's right and there's what's right and never the twain shall meet."

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Kerdy
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Post by Kerdy » Sat May 17, 2014 3:42 pm

OldWorldSwine wrote:Patriarch to meet Pope in Jerusalem!

http://eu.greekreporter.com/2014/05/09/ ... hisms-end/
Orthodox the world over are sharpening their pitch forks and fueling their torches.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Post by Kerdy » Sat May 17, 2014 3:45 pm

Del wrote:
Thunktank wrote:I watch EWTN sometimes. A few worthwhile programs to watch. Anyway, I just thought I'd mention that far too often when the Orthodox are mentioned on that network it's often filled with misinformation. Then there are times I end up feeling down right depressed after watching EWTN because someone flat out disrespects Orthodoxy in some form or another. I shouldn't be surprised and I know the Orthodox can be guilty of this against the Catholic Church and practice as well. But I guess I'm just starting to come to grips that the schism will never end. Most probably already know this but I guess I've been hoping. But, when I hear Catholics on EWTN talk about certain things in opposition to the Orthodox I can't help but think that the Catholics have a fundamentally different spirit. Reunion is hopeless.

Last night I watched a program where a priest or bishop (not sure which) was brought in to discuss possible changes in the way the Catholic Church may deal with Catholics who divorced and remarried. There was discussion that perhaps there ought to be some way to allow those people to return to taking the Eucharist again at some point. The host of the show brought up the fact that some Catholics were looking to the Orthodox for a solution to this problem. The clergyman obviously made some gesture that the host easily identified as disapproval, the host laughed as though the very idea was preposterous in agreement with his guest speaker. Then they went on and complained that to take Orthodox ideas seriously would mean that they would need to accept "different kinds of marriage." But for me, the icing on the cake to this whole conversation was that they were quite serious about streamlining the annulment process and broadening the definition of an invalid marriage. <redacted_emoji> :facepalm:

Seriously! :x
I didn't see this, but I has the sad :(

I am not familiar with the Orthodox canon law concerning valid and invalid marriage. I am quite certain that no one has explained to me what details of Orthodox law are problematic.

I know the problems that are found in Roman Canon Law.

I know that there are people who want us to dispense with canonical form. Instead of determining whether the sacrament was invalid, they want to us ignore the original marriage and divorce for "pastoral" reasons -- which really aren't "reasons" at all, just sentiments and arbitrary choices.

People want an easy way to ignore Jesus' firm teaching about marriage. (Today's reading, as luck has it!)
The Orthodox Church is much more relaxed with marriage than the Catholic Church in many ways. Divorce and remarriage being one of them. Each has its own issues to work through.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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