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Post by dasmokeryaget » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:46 am

Onyx wrote:Wosbald, for about four years I have jousted with you on various things. I remain unsure whether you are deliberately provocative, or oblivious to your offensive brand of religion. And yet, I think you are representative of your faith in its extreme form.

Praying for the priests in response to this situation is strangely passive-aggressive given the staggering accumulation of their victims. And yet perhaps it's likely that many of them were abused themselves by the previous generation of religious authority. So perhaps they are among the abused. Yet it remains hard to understand what motivates you to pray for the priests rather than the abused. Is it like Jesus' admonition to pray for them that persecute you?

While on the face of it, a prayer for the priests seems above reproach, but we are knee deep in testimonials of priestly abuse out here. It looks like the Catholic Church cares primarily about the Catholic Church. That sucks badly. That has caused untold extension and protection of abusers and perpetuation of the abuses. I call it respect of persons. I learned this from Christian teaching. We should respect no man's person. Whether he be priest or plumber's son, he is no more important, and no more valued than another. A priest does not deserve protection when he exploits others. It's a hard lesson - in practice - when you're committed to an institution. The Catholic Church has been slow learning this - in Australia.

I agree with you Onyx. I'm not being a hater, but I have to stand for what I know is right and truth on this. Call a spade a spade and sin sin...no excuses, no "dance around your head stuff"

Sure praying for the priest, the righteous ones and the wicked ones alike, sounds good, but the lives that are being wrecked and the ripple effect hurts more than just the immediate victims. It's negeligent and derelict to fail to pray for the victims first and foremost.

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Post by Del » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:41 am

Wosbald did not mean any insult, as incredible as this may seem. When the situation becomes so grave and so overwhelming that we are at a loss for words and hope, Catholics retreat into our traditional and memorized prayers. Even if we have to pray them through clenched teeth.

The Prayer for Priests becomes a powerful prayer -- we are begging for the conversion and sanctification of their souls. That will be a painful grace for the likes of Cardinal Pell, and for the abusers who are hardened and addicted in their sin. It will be needed strength for the priests who are innocent.

If it sounds like anyone is hoping that the guilty abusers will be spared from the consequences so they can continue in their sins, then go read the prayer again.

When priests and bishops are under attack because some of them have done grave sin and given scandal, it is good to remember that we have a special duty to pray for our priests.

A lot of good priests are being hurt, and their reputations impaired, by the crimes of a small fraction of their number.

And when we are angry at our priests and pastors, and tempted to hate them for what they have done, we must remember that we have a special duty to pray for our enemies.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Post by jruegg » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:44 am

Guys.... it’s not either/or it’s both/and. Wos is correct (did I just say that?). But only partially, which also makes him partially wrong. Das, Onyx, and Rusty are correct. But only partially, which also makes them partially wrong. What’s the correct Biblical course to take here? Love.

So what does that mean?

First: We show love through prayer. We pray for the priests, for they surely need it. We pray for the victims, for they surely need it. We pray for each other, for we surely need it. We pray for ourselves, for we surely need it. We pray because we love.

Second: We show love for the victims. We show genuine compassion and empathy to the victims. We assist them in healing from the hurt and brokenness caused by the sins of others, even those who should have known better. This healing comes in many ways but all of them are initiated and sustained by showing them the love of Christ. In love we seek justice for the victims as well as teaching them about forgiveness, even of enemies. This is love.

Third: We show love for the criminal. We show genuine compassion and empathy to the perpetrator of the crime. We assist them in healing from their sin. This healing comes in many way but all of them are initiated and sustained by showing the the love of Christ. In love we forgive the criminal and teach them about forgiving themselves. Part of this is seeking reconciliation with God and (hopefully) their victims, even as the consequences for their crimes are still enforced. This is love.

I’m sure I’m leaving something out. I hope you all get my drift.
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Post by DepartedLight » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:17 am

Justice cries out in the silent sobs of people that will forever have to stare through a twisted and hideously distorted window into the face of God. Sounds like a hell of sorts to me.

If you want to spend your time praying for the perpetrators, please go forward and do so.

Think I'll spend some knee time on behalf of the victims.
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Post by Joshoowah » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:44 am

Why can't there just be prayer for both?
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose?" Philippians 1:21-22

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Post by DepartedLight » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:54 am

Joshoowah wrote:Why can't there just be prayer for both?
There can. And there is. Obviously. Look up there, you'll see it plenty.
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Post by Del » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:57 am

It sounds like the locus of the problem in Australia is Cardinal Pell, who is being obstinate and unrepentant. So he is the priest we hold closest to our hearts as we pray for all priests.
Prayer for Priests

Sanctify to Thyself, O my Lord, the hearts of Thy priests.....
This is not a gentle prayer! If a priest is obstinate in sin, we are asking for the brutal grace of repentance -- and we are asking God to firmly offer the fire of Purgatory to the man's heart right now.

Our hearts go out to the abuse victims, and to the good Catholics who have been betrayed. We should all pray for mercy and consolation and healing.

But the problem is with the priests and bishops. So we pray for a cure to the problem here, at its source.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Post by jruegg » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:06 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:Why can't there just be prayer for both?
There can. And there is. Obviously. Look up there, you'll see it plenty.
Did I die? Do I not exist anymore? Did the fever take me? I could have sworn I spoke on this. Joshoowah, you are correct. That’s the Jesus way. DL, you’re only have way there. Your anger is understandable, but Jesus calls us to love our enemies. Follow his example: For victims he offered forgiveness, and release, compassion, and love. He healed them; some physically but most spiritually. For the perpetrators he cried over them and from the cross he said, 'Father forgive them.'

Don’t half-donkey it, DL.... succumb to the awesome power of the love of God.
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Post by Thunktank » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:15 pm

Del wrote:Wosbald did not mean any insult, as incredible as this may seem. When the situation becomes so grave and so overwhelming that we are at a loss for words and hope, Catholics retreat into our traditional and memorized prayers. Even if we have to pray them through clenched teeth. . . And when we are angry at our priests and pastors, and tempted to hate them for what they have done, we must remember that we have a special duty to pray for our enemies.
+1

Beautifully said. I will also add for the purpose of clarity that even though these priests may be guilty of grave and painful sins, they have in fact functioned as priests. They were given the indelible mark of Grace from the Mystery of Holy Orders. They may and should have been pulled from their active role as priests given their sins, but they are marked as priests none the less. This bears a dreadful responsibility for both the clergy and lay people. The first and most important duty for all faithful is to pray for them as vessels of God's gracious work.

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Post by jruegg » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:21 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Del wrote:Wosbald did not mean any insult, as incredible as this may seem. When the situation becomes so grave and so overwhelming that we are at a loss for words and hope, Catholics retreat into our traditional and memorized prayers. Even if we have to pray them through clenched teeth. . . And when we are angry at our priests and pastors, and tempted to hate them for what they have done, we must remember that we have a special duty to pray for our enemies.
+1

Beautifully said. I will also add for the purpose of clarity that even though these priests may be guilty of grave and painful sins, they have in fact functioned as priests. They were given the indelible mark of Grace from the Mystery of Holy Orders. They may and should have been pulled from their active role as priests given their sins, but they are marked as priests none the less. This bears a dreadful responsibility for both the clergy and lay people. The first and most important duty for all faithful is to pray for them as vessels of God's gracious work.
Does it matter that those marked betrayed that mark?
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Post by DepartedLight » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:24 pm

jruegg wrote:
DepartedLight wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:Why can't there just be prayer for both?
There can. And there is. Obviously. Look up there, you'll see it plenty.
Did I die? Do I not exist anymore? Did the fever take me? I could have sworn I spoke on this. Joshoowah, you are correct. That’s the Jesus way. DL, you’re only have way there. Your anger is understandable, but Jesus calls us to love our enemies. Follow his example: For victims he offered forgiveness, and release, compassion, and love. He healed them; some physically but most spiritually. For the perpetrators he cried over them and from the cross he said, 'Father forgive them.'

Don’t half-donkey it, DL.... succumb to the awesome power of the love of God.
I don't say the perps don't need prayer, nor do I chide those that wish to provide them this service. Quite the opposite, I say go forth in peace and do so, if you are so inclined.

Jesus really saved his most 'tudinal sayings for the religious BS artists of His earthly day. I doubt that's changed.

I like this example of the Master:

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea. Mark 9:42

With the abuse scandal coming to light in the US years prior to this, it is unfathomable that the lessons learned from that did not radiate throughout the whole Catholic Church worldwide.

It's not all cupcakes, unicorns, and Kumbaya. Sometimes stuff's gotta be real. I believe this is one of those times.

Shielding criminals and deflecting blame on an issue this grave is wrong. There are no excuses. There are no rationalizations. The US Catholic Church learned that the hard way. They have made changes in the way it conducts itself in this regard. That should be noted.

Not sure why that memo didn't get read elsewhere in the world as this pattern continues to come to light across the globe and the same mistakes are being repeated from country to country.
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Post by jruegg » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:28 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
jruegg wrote:
DepartedLight wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:Why can't there just be prayer for both?
There can. And there is. Obviously. Look up there, you'll see it plenty.
Did I die? Do I not exist anymore? Did the fever take me? I could have sworn I spoke on this. Joshoowah, you are correct. That’s the Jesus way. DL, you’re only have way there. Your anger is understandable, but Jesus calls us to love our enemies. Follow his example: For victims he offered forgiveness, and release, compassion, and love. He healed them; some physically but most spiritually. For the perpetrators he cried over them and from the cross he said, 'Father forgive them.'

Don’t half-donkey it, DL.... succumb to the awesome power of the love of God.
I don't say the perps don't need prayer, nor do I chide those that wish to provide them this service. Quite the opposite, I say go forth in peace and do so, if you are so inclined.

Jesus really saved his most 'tudinal sayings for the religious BS artists of His earthly day. I doubt that's changed.

I like this example of the Master:

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea. Mark 9:42

With the abuse scandal coming to light in the US years prior to this, it is unfathomable that the lessons learned from that did not radiate throughout the whole Catholic Church worldwide.

It's not all cupcakes, unicorns, and Kumbaya. Sometimes stuff's gotta be real. I believe this is one of those times.

Shielding criminals and deflecting blame on an issue this grave is wrong. There are no excuses. There are no rationalizations. The US Catholic Church learned that the hard way. They have made changes in the way it conducts itself in this regard. That should be noted.

Not sure why that memo didn't get read elsewhere in the world as this pattern continues to come to light across the globe and the same mistakes are being repeated from country to country.
Here’s a line from my sermon today:


When someone reveals a sin in our life, how do we respond? Do we thank them and change? Or do we get defensive, or start making excuses, or perhaps just avoid talking to that person ever again? This is what's called a shame response. It's what we do sometimes when we've been exposed.
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Post by Del » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:52 pm

jruegg wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Del wrote:Wosbald did not mean any insult, as incredible as this may seem. When the situation becomes so grave and so overwhelming that we are at a loss for words and hope, Catholics retreat into our traditional and memorized prayers. Even if we have to pray them through clenched teeth. . . And when we are angry at our priests and pastors, and tempted to hate them for what they have done, we must remember that we have a special duty to pray for our enemies.
+1

Beautifully said. I will also add for the purpose of clarity that even though these priests may be guilty of grave and painful sins, they have in fact functioned as priests. They were given the indelible mark of Grace from the Mystery of Holy Orders. They may and should have been pulled from their active role as priests given their sins, but they are marked as priests none the less. This bears a dreadful responsibility for both the clergy and lay people. The first and most important duty for all faithful is to pray for them as vessels of God's gracious work.
Does it matter that those marked betrayed that mark?
Yes, in that those who are called to bring holiness give the most scandal when they fail to live it.

No, in that the sin of the man does not touch the sacraments that he brings. Jesus still comes to the altar for us, and Jesus still forgives our sins in confession. Even if the priest is a vile sinner.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Post by Thunktank » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:54 pm

jruegg wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Del wrote:Wosbald did not mean any insult, as incredible as this may seem. When the situation becomes so grave and so overwhelming that we are at a loss for words and hope, Catholics retreat into our traditional and memorized prayers. Even if we have to pray them through clenched teeth. . . And when we are angry at our priests and pastors, and tempted to hate them for what they have done, we must remember that we have a special duty to pray for our enemies.
+1

Beautifully said. I will also add for the purpose of clarity that even though these priests may be guilty of grave and painful sins, they have in fact functioned as priests. They were given the indelible mark of Grace from the Mystery of Holy Orders. They may and should have been pulled from their active role as priests given their sins, but they are marked as priests none the less. This bears a dreadful responsibility for both the clergy and lay people. The first and most important duty for all faithful is to pray for them as vessels of God's gracious work.
Does it matter that those marked betrayed that mark?
It certainly matters, yes. However, the graces given them to exercize the various Sacramental duties were still valid even though the vessel of those graces were utterly unworthy. This makes these sins all the more terrible and twisted. Only rigorous repentance and penance will be able to reverse the impending wrath of God.

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Post by Thunktank » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:55 pm

Oops Del replied just as I did.

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Post by DepartedLight » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:58 pm

jruegg wrote:
DepartedLight wrote:
jruegg wrote:
DepartedLight wrote:
Joshoowah wrote:Why can't there just be prayer for both?
There can. And there is. Obviously. Look up there, you'll see it plenty.
Did I die? Do I not exist anymore? Did the fever take me? I could have sworn I spoke on this. Joshoowah, you are correct. That’s the Jesus way. DL, you’re only have way there. Your anger is understandable, but Jesus calls us to love our enemies. Follow his example: For victims he offered forgiveness, and release, compassion, and love. He healed them; some physically but most spiritually. For the perpetrators he cried over them and from the cross he said, 'Father forgive them.'

Don’t half-donkey it, DL.... succumb to the awesome power of the love of God.
I don't say the perps don't need prayer, nor do I chide those that wish to provide them this service. Quite the opposite, I say go forth in peace and do so, if you are so inclined.

Jesus really saved his most 'tudinal sayings for the religious BS artists of His earthly day. I doubt that's changed.

I like this example of the Master:

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea. Mark 9:42

With the abuse scandal coming to light in the US years prior to this, it is unfathomable that the lessons learned from that did not radiate throughout the whole Catholic Church worldwide.

It's not all cupcakes, unicorns, and Kumbaya. Sometimes stuff's gotta be real. I believe this is one of those times.

Shielding criminals and deflecting blame on an issue this grave is wrong. There are no excuses. There are no rationalizations. The US Catholic Church learned that the hard way. They have made changes in the way it conducts itself in this regard. That should be noted.

Not sure why that memo didn't get read elsewhere in the world as this pattern continues to come to light across the globe and the same mistakes are being repeated from country to country.
Here’s a line from my sermon today:


When someone reveals a sin in our life, how do we respond? Do we thank them and change? Or do we get defensive, or start making excuses, or perhaps just avoid talking to that person ever again? This is what's called a shame response. It's what we do sometimes when we've been exposed.
yer jukin' up the wrong tree rooj :lol:
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Post by jruegg » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:04 pm

Del wrote:
jruegg wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Del wrote:Wosbald did not mean any insult, as incredible as this may seem. When the situation becomes so grave and so overwhelming that we are at a loss for words and hope, Catholics retreat into our traditional and memorized prayers. Even if we have to pray them through clenched teeth. . . And when we are angry at our priests and pastors, and tempted to hate them for what they have done, we must remember that we have a special duty to pray for our enemies.
+1

Beautifully said. I will also add for the purpose of clarity that even though these priests may be guilty of grave and painful sins, they have in fact functioned as priests. They were given the indelible mark of Grace from the Mystery of Holy Orders. They may and should have been pulled from their active role as priests given their sins, but they are marked as priests none the less. This bears a dreadful responsibility for both the clergy and lay people. The first and most important duty for all faithful is to pray for them as vessels of God's gracious work.
Does it matter that those marked betrayed that mark?
Yes, in that those who are called to bring holiness give the most scandal when they fail to live it.

No, in that the sin of the man does not touch the sacraments that he brings. Jesus still comes to the altar for us, and Jesus still forgives our sins in confession. Even if the priest is a vile sinner.
Ok. I can understand what you and Thunk mean here. However, though the Grace doesn’t change regardless of how vile the person offering it on behalf of God, it does make it incredibly difficult for people to receive that grace when they know what that person has done. I think the term is 'Hypocrites' ...... I’m sure I read something in scripture about them. (Matthew 23)


Perhaps it is the church’s responsibility, then, to remove these obstacles to grace (and defrock them), for the sake of the flock.
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Post by Joshoowah » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:18 pm

Here's a more extensive article on the Royal Commission: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/ar ... d=10847950
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Post by Thunktank » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:19 pm

jruegg wrote:
Del wrote:
jruegg wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
Del wrote:Wosbald did not mean any insult, as incredible as this may seem. When the situation becomes so grave and so overwhelming that we are at a loss for words and hope, Catholics retreat into our traditional and memorized prayers. Even if we have to pray them through clenched teeth. . . And when we are angry at our priests and pastors, and tempted to hate them for what they have done, we must remember that we have a special duty to pray for our enemies.
+1

Beautifully said. I will also add for the purpose of clarity that even though these priests may be guilty of grave and painful sins, they have in fact functioned as priests. They were given the indelible mark of Grace from the Mystery of Holy Orders. They may and should have been pulled from their active role as priests given their sins, but they are marked as priests none the less. This bears a dreadful responsibility for both the clergy and lay people. The first and most important duty for all faithful is to pray for them as vessels of God's gracious work.
Does it matter that those marked betrayed that mark?
Yes, in that those who are called to bring holiness give the most scandal when they fail to live it.

No, in that the sin of the man does not touch the sacraments that he brings. Jesus still comes to the altar for us, and Jesus still forgives our sins in confession. Even if the priest is a vile sinner.
Ok. I can understand what you and Thunk mean here. However, though the Grace doesn’t change regardless of how vile the person offering it on behalf of God, it does make it incredibly difficult for people to receive that grace when they know what that person has done. I think the term is 'Hypocrites' ...... I’m sure I read something in scripture about them. (Matthew 23)


Perhaps it is the church’s responsibility, then, to remove these obstacles to grace (and defrock them), for the sake of the flock.
They most certainly should be removed from active ministry for those reasons, yes. Priest are especially charged with being an icon of Christ, we all are, but the clergy in unique ways because it is they who impart God's graces in their capacity.

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Post by Del » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:58 pm

jruegg wrote:Ok. I can understand what you and Thunk mean here. However, though the Grace doesn’t change regardless of how vile the person offering it on behalf of God, it does make it incredibly difficult for people to receive that grace when they know what that person has done. I think the term is 'Hypocrites' ...... I’m sure I read something in scripture about them. (Matthew 23)


Perhaps it is the church’s responsibility, then, to remove these obstacles to grace (and defrock them), for the sake of the flock.
yes... this is why the sin of scandal is so grave.

Do we all understand what scandal is?
CCC wrote:2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep's clothing.87
The "scandal" is a widespread temptation to leave the Church and abandon one's faith. "Hey... if those priests and bishops can't keep their gropy hands off of the teenager boys, then why should anyone struggle against our desires to fornication or contraception? Why bother with religion at all, if the pastors don't seem to care?"

Of course, there are thousands of good and holy priests who are trying to pastor well, but the grievously bad example of the few overwhelms the good example of the many.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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