Religious Affiliation Discussion Thread

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Religious Affiliation Discussion Thread

Post by Brigid » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:18 pm

From the previous thread:
Lushmojo wrote:Would be nice if StatHaldol and N8 would list some specificity (as per the original post request). I completely understand the notion of simply wanting to put "Christian," believe me. But if we all do that then there's no real point to the list. The point of the list, at least for me, is a reference so that when someone says something with regard to doctrine or theology I can look at the list and (hopefully) better understand where they're coming from. Also, it's just nice to know where we all hail from in the grand history and procession of faith, no?
Brigid wrote:Something like "raised X denom, currently non-denominational with leanings towards Y" would be helpful.
Hogleg wrote:Perhaps GOD would approve of such a pointless list more than the one we've developed. Just a thought.
Jodigits wrote:This thread does not exist to debate that statement. If you want to do so, please start another thread. That is only going to start stuff and this has been, and hopefully will remain, a civil thread. I am nippin this one in the bud post haste. Whatever your intentions, and I assume they are good, that is just the sort of statement that gets people fired up. Thanks.

EDIT: changed it a bit to make it more presentable. My apologies for the harshness.
Brigid wrote:We're not denying that we are all of us united in a love of God, that we follow Christ and are Christians. We are hoping to understand one another better by having reference to specific beliefs. For instance, by knowing that So-and-So is Orthodox/Anglican/United Methodist it reminds me of their paradigm and helps me to dialogue more effectively and respectfully.

If you'd like, we can start a "Religious Affiliation Discussion Thread" in order to discuss this further.
Del wrote:Christianity is always handed down to us within the context of a tradition of some sort.

A non-dom Christian from a Nazarene tradition has a very different worldview from a non-dom Christian from a Catholic tradition.
Das wrote:My friend. YTY is exactly that. A non-dom from the nazarene church. He and I have identical world views. Just thought i'd throw that out there for contrary sake.
Thunktank wrote:It's not a pointless list at all. It's very important, especially in theological conversations in knowing where a man or woman stands in their confession of faith. A person who truly believes it doesn't matter is a person who truly believes that doctrine doesn't really matter. Indeed, I post replies differently to different people according to their professed doctrine depending on the subject at hand. But now that you posted as you have I better understand where you're coming from but still think it's best that everyone post a particular church, denomination or non denomination they belong to. In reference to non denoms it would be useful if they could specify just what they confess because there is such vast differences between them.
Das wrote:I suspect HL can fend for himself and I might be half a bubble off, but when I read his statement I saw it completely differently than it appears to have been taken. Joo

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Post by UncleBob » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:40 pm

This is why we can't have nice things.
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Post by Thunktank » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:16 pm

:rotfl:

(beats the alternative)
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Post by gravel » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:19 pm

Are we discussing our own or other people's? If the former, cool. If the latter... no bueno.

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Post by jo533281 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:20 pm

gravel wrote:Are we discussing our own or other people's? If the former, cool. If the latter... no bueno.
Hey! Gravel speaks Spanish too! :D
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Post by Brigid » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:22 pm

Neither? We're discussing lists of affiliation and probably the idea of affiliation in general.

Hogleg asked whether our list of divisions was more pleasing to God than a "pointless" list that just said "Christian." A good question, I think. Rather than threadjacking in order to discuss it, I'd hoped to move the discussion here.

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Post by jo533281 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:25 pm

Brigid wrote:Neither? We're discussing lists of affiliation and probably the idea of affiliation in general.

Hogleg asked whether our list of divisions was more pleasing to God than a "pointless" list that just said "Christian." A good question, I think. Rather than threadjacking in order to discuss it, I'd hoped to move the discussion here.
What she said, cuz she said it nicer.
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Post by hogleg » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:36 pm

I challenge everyone to sit back, think, and truly consider (may take a few days or longer) from the filter of GOD's perspective the whole idea of the list of divisions we've created.
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Post by LushMojo » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:45 pm

hogleg wrote:I challenge everyone to sit back, think, and truly consider (may take a few days or longer) from the filter of GOD's perspective the whole idea of the list of divisions we've created.
Bill, I totally get what you're saying and agree with you fully. Several years ago when I was non-denominational I was absolutely against labeling. I appreciate that God must view us through a completely different lens than we have (or can even imagine - Isaiah 55:9).

The only reason I started the thread/list is to better understand people. That's all.

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Post by GiantNinja » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:45 pm

Oy. When Catholics assume a Catholic paradigm in their posts, it's called arrogant.

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Post by GiantNinja » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:49 pm

If theological nominalism is true, then God "doesn't care" what deNOMINation we are.

If, however Jesus founded and protects a specific Guardian of Truth, then He certainly DOES "care".

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

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Post by Thunktank » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:53 pm

hogleg wrote:I challenge everyone to sit back, think, and truly consider (may take a few days or longer) from the filter of GOD's perspective the whole idea of the list of divisions we've created.
I've thought of this problem for years. It doesn't chang the fact that divisions exist. Ultimately, I can't post a reply the same way to a non denom confessing Christian as I can a fellow Orthodox Christian. That's why a list is helpful. But perhaps the list is a good reminder to folks just how sad divisions are. Perhaps it will incline folks to seek first the Kingdom of God too.
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Post by Brigid » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:56 pm

hogleg wrote:I challenge everyone to sit back, think, and truly consider (may take a few days or longer) from the filter of GOD's perspective the whole idea of the list of divisions we've created.
First of all, I think that's a good challenge. And I think there's something very valuable in what you're saying.

I'd also like to challenge people to think of what would happen were we to have we have no divisions, were Anglican and Methodist one and the same, and Mormonism and Catholicism considered identical.

What if we choose to hold so few divisions that--as CS Lewis cautioned--"Christian" becomes so all-inclusive that it loses its definition and becomes a useless word like gentleman, that it simply means "a person we like" when its meaning was once specific.** Or when we continue on that path and consider all people of the Book the same (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, splinter cults), when we let go of our standards and divisions to the point that truth becomes relative and our faith has no meaning.

Division is not inherently bad. It's okay to have standards, in the sense that XYZ means ____ and things that fall short or encompass only part are not the same. We don't have to say that A is always more or less valuable than B, but if I believe that option A is closer to the truth, then B really isn't the same, and that's okay.

If we have no division, no one absolute truth that we cling to, then our faith is meaningless hippie-drivel and completely individualized, made-up bullcrap. I understand that we cling to the truth as we see it, and that we see it differently. That's why we have Orthodoxy and Catholicism and Lutheranism and United vs Free Methodist and even the cultists. We are holding fast to what we believe is true. That inherently creates divisions. Is it sad that we are not united? Of course. But it's also how it needs to be.

CS Lewis talked about the concept of Mere Christianity. These are the things we have all held to be true from the beginning, from the days of Christ Himself and the Apostles. We still have that, we are still united in that. Acknowledging our divisions will not take away that we are united in the love of Christ.



**Let me know if I need to get the exact quote for that to make sense.

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Post by hogleg » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:57 pm

Thunktank wrote:
hogleg wrote:I challenge everyone to sit back, think, and truly consider (may take a few days or longer) from the filter of GOD's perspective the whole idea of the list of divisions we've created.
I've thought of this problem for years. It doesn't chang the fact that divisions exist. Ultimately, I can't post a reply the same way to a non denom confessing Christian as I can a fellow Orthodox Christian. That's why a list is helpful. But perhaps the list is a good reminder to folks just how sad divisions are. Perhaps it will incline folks to seek first the Kingdom of God too.
I'm likely inferring something you didn't mean to imply, but the truth you want to communicate should not change based upon audience.
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Post by hogleg » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:00 pm

Brigid wrote:
hogleg wrote:I challenge everyone to sit back, think, and truly consider (may take a few days or longer) from the filter of GOD's perspective the whole idea of the list of divisions we've created.
... no divisions, were Anglican and Methodist one and the same, and Mormonism and Catholicism considered identical.
All inclusive is not what I meant. Just let the truth stand. The Christ is the center. We choose to chop Him and His truth up in so many different ways.
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Post by Brigid » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:03 pm

hogleg wrote:
Thunktank wrote:
hogleg wrote:I challenge everyone to sit back, think, and truly consider (may take a few days or longer) from the filter of GOD's perspective the whole idea of the list of divisions we've created.
I've thought of this problem for years. It doesn't chang the fact that divisions exist. Ultimately, I can't post a reply the same way to a non denom confessing Christian as I can a fellow Orthodox Christian. That's why a list is helpful. But perhaps the list is a good reminder to folks just how sad divisions are. Perhaps it will incline folks to seek first the Kingdom of God too.
I'm likely inferring something you didn't mean to imply, but the truth you want to communicate should not change based upon audience.
Absolutely. The truth cannot change, but the method of expressing it must.

In order to explain my job (corporate sales at a market research firm) to a six-year-old, I explain it differently than to a marketing director or a barista or a secretary. There's not only a different level of understanding and different paradigm, there's different senses of what words mean. Market as a shop vs market as an area of demand, for instance. It's not a bad thing, but it's also not optional.

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Post by Steverino » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:05 pm

Sounds a bit like a discussion on whether denominations are "good" or "bad". Either position will be colored by your own beliefs/experiences within your denomination or lack thereof. In my belief system, which I can totally support from scripture (as I'm sure all of us can of our own belief systems), God is the one who leads us, or calls us, to our positions in life. God has called me to be a radio engineer just as he has called Billy Graham to be an evangelist. Likewise, he has called me to be of the reformed faith, and to serve wherever I am needed, whether it is a reformed church or not. I hope that everyone who is of a particular stripe (non-denom included) is so because he or she fully believes that God has called them to it and they are best able to serve and glorify God under those circumstances.
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Post by Brigid » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:10 pm

hogleg wrote:
Brigid wrote:
hogleg wrote:I challenge everyone to sit back, think, and truly consider (may take a few days or longer) from the filter of GOD's perspective the whole idea of the list of divisions we've created.
... no divisions, were Anglican and Methodist one and the same, and Mormonism and Catholicism considered identical.
All inclusive is not what I meant. Just let the truth stand. The Christ is the center. We choose to chop Him and His truth up in so many different ways.
But none of us think that we do. Don't you see? I believe I embrace Christ in His wholeness, in a sacramental entirety. I could never settle for less than what the Orthodox church teaches, and it feels as if every other option is missing huge crucial chunks of Christianity.
And on the flip side some people think I'm ignoring or missing parts.

There's no way for us to embrace or understand all of God, that's not possible with the limits of human comprehension.

So we choose the church that embraces Christ most fully as we see it, and if the person sitting next to us embraces Christ differently--seems to be missing something huge--then there's a division. Inherently. It's not choosing to chop up Christ, it's embracing Him as best we can and professing the truth as we see it.

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Post by jruegg » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:18 pm

GiantNinja wrote:Oy. When Catholics assume a Catholic paradigm in their posts, it's called arrogant.
Where is this coming from? :?
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Post by jruegg » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:23 pm

Brigid wrote:
hogleg wrote:
Brigid wrote:
hogleg wrote:I challenge everyone to sit back, think, and truly consider (may take a few days or longer) from the filter of GOD's perspective the whole idea of the list of divisions we've created.
... no divisions, were Anglican and Methodist one and the same, and Mormonism and Catholicism considered identical.
All inclusive is not what I meant. Just let the truth stand. The Christ is the center. We choose to chop Him and His truth up in so many different ways.
But none of us think that we do. Don't you see? I believe I embrace Christ in His wholeness, in a sacramental entirety. I could never settle for less than what the Orthodox church teaches, and it feels as if every other option is missing huge crucial chunks of Christianity.
And on the flip side some people think I'm ignoring or missing parts.

There's no way for us to embrace or understand all of God, that's not possible with the limits of human comprehension.

So we choose the church that embraces Christ most fully as we see it, and if the person sitting next to us embraces Christ differently--seems to be missing something huge--then there's a division. Inherently. It's not choosing to chop up Christ, it's embracing Him as best we can and professing the truth as we see it.
Boosh.
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