I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:54 am

+JMJ+

47 bishops to take part in theology seminars on 'Amoris Laetitia'
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Copies of Pope Francis' apostolic exhortation on the family, "Amoris Laetitia," are seen on a table at the Vatican in January 2017. (CNS/Paul Haring)

Forty-seven Catholic bishops from across the U.S. will take part in a series of daylong seminars in mid-February aimed at helping them better understand and implement Pope Francis' 2016 apostolic exhortation on family life, Amoris Laetitia.

The seminars will be led by a team of seven theologians and several bishops and held on separate days at Boston College, the University of Notre Dame and Santa Clara University. Among the speakers: Cardinal Donald Wuerl of Washington, D.C.; Cardinal Blase Cupich of Chicago; Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark, New Jersey; and Bishop Robert McElroy of San Diego.

The initiative was announced Feb. 12 by Jesuit Fr. James Keenan, a theologian at Boston College who is organizing the seminars alongside Cupich and Cardinal Kevin Farrell, head of the Vatican's Dicastery for Laity, Family and Life.

[…]

The three seminars — to be held Feb. 19, 21 and 23 — are being kept private.

A program for the Boston event shows it will consist of three panel discussions, focused on the methodology of Amoris Laetitia, the challenges and opportunities it presents, and the processes of episcopal leadership and pastoral formation it envisions. The day in Boston starts with a Mass celebrated by Wuerl.

Included in the team of theologians leading the seminars are:
  • Conor Kelly of Marquette University;
  • Msgr. Jack Alesandro of the Diocese of Rockville Centre, New York;
  • Brian Robinette of Boston College;
  • Natalia Imperatori-Lee of Manhattan College;
  • C. Vanessa White of the Catholic Theological Un𝗂on;
  • Kate Ward of Marquette University;
  • Paulist Fr. John Hurley of the San Diego Diocese.
[…]
Last edited by wosbald on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:54 am

wosbald wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:54 am
+JMJ+

47 bishops to take part in theology seminars on 'Amoris Laetitia'
Image
Copies of Pope Francis' apostolic exhortation on the family, "Amoris Laetitia," are seen on a table at the Vatican in January 2017. (CNS/Paul Haring)

Forty-seven Catholic bishops from across the U.S. will take part in a series of daylong seminars in mid-February aimed at helping them better understand and implement Pope Francis' 2016 apostolic exhortation on family life, Amoris Laetitia.

The seminars will be led by a team of seven theologians and several bishops and held on separate days at Boston College, the University of Notre Dame and Santa Clara University. Among the speakers: Cardinal Donald Wuerl of Washington, D.C.; Cardinal Blase Cupich of Chicago; Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark, New Jersey; and Bishop Robert McElroy of San Diego.

The initiative was announced Feb. 12 by Jesuit Fr. James Keenan, a theologian at Boston College who is organizing the seminars alongside Cupich and Cardinal Kevin Farrell, head of the Vatican's Dicastery for Laity, Family and Life.

[…]

The three seminars — to be held Feb. 19, 21 and 23 — are being kept private.

A program for the Boston event shows it will consist of three panel discussions, focused on the methodology of Amoris Laetitia, the challenges and opportunities it presents, and the processes of episcopal leadership and pastoral formation it envisions. The day in Boston starts with a Mass celebrated by Wuerl.

Included in the team of theologians leading the seminars are:
  • Conor Kelly of Marquette University;
  • Msgr. Jack Alesandro of the Diocese of Rockville Centre, New York;
  • Brian Robinette of Boston College;
  • Natalia Imperatori-Lee of Manhattan College;
  • C. Vanessa White of the Catholic Theological Un𝗂on;
  • Kate Ward of Marquette University;
  • Paulist Fr. John Hurley of the San Diego Diocese.
[…]
Fixed link:
https://www.ncronline.org/news/theology ... s-laetitia

That list of speakers certainly has National Catholic Reporter going all squee with glee.

Why only 47 bishops? Were only a select bunch of friends invited? Were all invited to the private talks, and this portion were the ones who wanted to participate?

National Catholic Register has not picked up this story yet.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:14 am

+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:54 am
Fixed link …
Fixed in OP. Thanx.




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:38 pm

I fail to comprehend the exicitment and ensuing confusion over Amoris Laetitia.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by infidel » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:58 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:38 pm
I fail to comprehend the exicitment and ensuing confusion over Amoris Laetitia.
You've hurt Laetitia's feelings

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:38 am

+JMJ+

Pope Francis reveals he meets with victims of sex abuse on Fridays
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In this file photo, Pope Francis speaks during a meeting with Jesuits and laypeople associated with Jesuit institutions in Cartagena, Colombia, Sept. 10. Also pictured is Jesuit Father Antonio Spadaro, editor of the Rome-based Jesuit journal, La Civilta Cattolica. On Thursday, the magazine published the accounts of his meetings with Jesuits during his visit to Chile and Peru. (Credit: CNS photo/courtesy La Civilta Cattolica.)


[…]

Among other issues discussed in the two sessions with Jesuits, held in the Chilean capital Santiago and the Peruvian capital Lima, the pope also spoke about resistance to his reforms and to his apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia, saying he prays for those who claim to be in possession of true doctrine and who accuse him of heresy. The pontiff said he wouldn’t read the websites of traditionalist organizations, in order “to preserve my mental health.”

[…]

In the Chilean capital, Santiago, Francis was asked how he had coped with resistances he had encountered during his pontificate.

The pope said he was careful not to assume that an objection or opposition was a genuine resistance, that conflicts could be helpful in bringing out the truth, and that it was one of his failings sometimes to move ahead without properly explaining himself.

But “when I become aware of true resistance, I suffer,” he said. It was particularly troubling when “someone joins a campaign of resistance” to the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, he added.

While he knew about the websites of traditionalist organizations, he preferred not to read them “to preserve my mental health,” adding that historians believe it takes a century to absorb an ecumenical council, and therefore “we are still halfway there.”

In what will be seen as a reference to so-called “dubia letter” written to him by four cardinals protesting Amoris Laetitia, he said that when he became aware of doctrinal resistance, “I seek dialogue whenever it is possible; but some resistance comes from people who believe they possess the true doctrine and accuse you of being a heretic.”

“When I cannot see spiritual goodness in what these people say or write,” he added, “I simply pray for them. I find it sad, but don’t dwell on this feeling for the sake of my psychological well-being.”

He returned to the issue later in speaking of the need for the Church to learn discernment of God’s will rather than take refuge in yes-no, black-and-white answers, describing discernment as one of the “pastoral objectives” of the apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia.

“If you take a look at the panorama of reactions to Amoris Laetitia you will see that the strongest criticisms of the exhortation are against the eighth chapter: ‘Can a divorced person receive Communion, or not?’ But Amoris Laetitia goes in a completely different direction; it does not enter into these distinctions but poses the issue of discernment.”

In this sense, he added, the exhortation reflected the classical Thomism of St. Thomas Aquinas himself rather than the “decadent Thomism” of nineteenth-century neo-scholasticism.

Later, in Lima, he added: “Some reduce the entire result of two synods, all the work that was done there, to ‘you can or you can’t’ [receive communion if divorced and remarried]. Help us, then, to discern,” he told the Jesuits.

[…]




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:55 am

Thunktank wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:38 pm
I fail to comprehend the exicitment and ensuing confusion over Amoris Laetitia.
Just in case you are serious, I will risk a little bit of Del-splaining:

There is currently an epidemic of divorce and remarriage, as Western civilization has forgotten what marriage and sex are.

The present canon law is rather strict and biblical: A divorce-&-remarriage is adultery, as Jesus said. However we should allow for certain exceptions, as Jesus said. St. Paul provided some example cases. These should be judged by the Church, and not just self-absolved by the sinner.

Pope Francis thinks that we should be merciful and forgiving, absolving the sin of serial marriage adultery liberally and without much process. Essentially, "If it is good enough for the civil courts, then it is good enough for the Church." This is the practice among most American Christians of Protestant tradition.

The scandal of Pope Francis is that he makes no effort to revise canon law or define a different Church discipline. It seems that he would rather just ignore it -- and the teaching of the Apostles that it represents. Thus accusations that he is "violating the Church's teaching."

So a group of Cardinals asked Francis to explain himself more clearly. He refused. They issued a public letter (the "Dubia") presenting the problem and asking for clarification. Stubborn nothing from Pope Francis. So an open conflict is standing, like a sore wound.

The sub-text of the secret conference (and National Catholic Reporter's squee) is that these bishops have reputations for ignoring the ancient faith in favor of modern trends.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:26 am

+JMJ=
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:55 am
Thunktank wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:38 pm
I fail to comprehend the exicitment and ensuing confusion over Amoris Laetitia.
Just in case you are serious, I will risk a little bit of Del-splaining:

[…]

Pope Francis thinks that …
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:04 am

One of the mysteries of CPS for me is how my protestant brothers strengthen my faith and my Catholic brothers make me want to sit in a different room.

Why must God be so knowable and definable? How is everybody so hellfired assured of themselves?

Don't think I'm knocking anything here. I've certainly taken the view that I have the best understanding of theology before and I'll probably do it again.

The older I get, the less assured I am I know anything about the ways of God. I'm discerning the Spiritual Franciscans right now and I do not know if I'm called or not, but I'm attracted by the concept of moving from the Gospel to life and from life to the Gospel.

The two can clash. The Gospel says don't divorce. In life, it happens. Should divorced and remarried couples receive communion? Time, prayer, and the Synods will decide. It isn't Drax' s call, thank God.

I hope someday to be an instrument of love. The Pharisee in me wants to be an instrument of His justice, and that isn't right. Maybe I'm just not supposed to treat those people like their disease will infect me.

Someday when you have a chance, Think, is really appreciate a primer on the Eastern Catholics.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:21 pm

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:04 am
Maybe I'm just not supposed to treat those people like their disease will infect me.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:28 pm

wosbald wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:21 pm
+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:04 am
Maybe I'm just not supposed to treat those people like their disease will infect me.
Image
I'll take "What no woman has said about Wosbald ever for 1000, Alex."


N.B. not actually an insult. Nobody has ever said it about me, either.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:56 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:04 am
One of the mysteries of CPS for me is how my protestant brothers strengthen my faith and my Catholic brothers make me want to sit in a different room.

Why must God be so knowable and definable? How is everybody so hellfired assured of themselves?

Don't think I'm knocking anything here. I've certainly taken the view that I have the best understanding of theology before and I'll probably do it again.

The older I get, the less assured I am I know anything about the ways of God. I'm discerning the Spiritual Franciscans right now and I do not know if I'm called or not, but I'm attracted by the concept of moving from the Gospel to life and from life to the Gospel.

The two can clash. The Gospel says don't divorce. In life, it happens. Should divorced and remarried couples receive communion? Time, prayer, and the Synods will decide. It isn't Drax' s call, thank God.

I hope someday to be an instrument of love. The Pharisee in me wants to be an instrument of His justice, and that isn't right. Maybe I'm just not supposed to treat those people like their disease will infect me.

Someday when you have a chance, Think, is really appreciate a primer on the Eastern Catholics.
I am strongly in favor of the Orthodox approach to divorce and remarriage: We can acknowledge that sinful mistakes were made -- and now the parties desire to repent. There is a process that allows for this, while still affirming the teaching of Christ.

The scandal of Pope Francis is not that he wants to extend mercy to Catholics who are divorced and remarried. The scandal is that he does not respect the process of canon law. We could change the rules to address the sins of our times -- and we probably should -- but Francis appears to be saying that Church should not teach us or discipline us.

It is this failing of the duty of care which troubles Francis's critics. If Christ's Church does not correct us when we are wrong, then what good is it?
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"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:43 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:56 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:04 am
One of the mysteries of CPS for me is how my protestant brothers strengthen my faith and my Catholic brothers make me want to sit in a different room.

Why must God be so knowable and definable? How is everybody so hellfired assured of themselves?

Don't think I'm knocking anything here. I've certainly taken the view that I have the best understanding of theology before and I'll probably do it again.

The older I get, the less assured I am I know anything about the ways of God. I'm discerning the Spiritual Franciscans right now and I do not know if I'm called or not, but I'm attracted by the concept of moving from the Gospel to life and from life to the Gospel.

The two can clash. The Gospel says don't divorce. In life, it happens. Should divorced and remarried couples receive communion? Time, prayer, and the Synods will decide. It isn't Drax' s call, thank God.

I hope someday to be an instrument of love. The Pharisee in me wants to be an instrument of His justice, and that isn't right. Maybe I'm just not supposed to treat those people like their disease will infect me.

Someday when you have a chance, Think, is really appreciate a primer on the Eastern Catholics.
I am strongly in favor of the Orthodox approach to divorce and remarriage: We can acknowledge that sinful mistakes were made -- and now the parties desire to repent. There is a process that allows for this, while still affirming the teaching of Christ.

The scandal of Pope Francis is not that he wants to extend mercy to Catholics who are divorced and remarried. The scandal is that he does not respect the process of canon law. We could change the rules to address the sins of our times -- and we probably should -- but Francis appears to be saying that Church should not teach us or discipline us.

It is this failing of the duty of care which troubles Francis's critics. If Christ's Church does not correct us when we are wrong, then what good is it?
Really? That last line is problematic in the extreme to me. Don't get me wrong...I disagree with most of what you wrote, but I really don't understand the last line.

Canon law is terribly important, but we must be very careful that we don't mistake it for righteousness per se. I could, for instance, live according to the Canon law without being a Catholic Christian. Conversely, I couldn't ignore the law and still be a Catholic Christian.

My question is why this effects us? Neither of us are divorced and remarried. Whether a mechanism exists to allow them to receive the communion or not strikes me as relatively unimportant in our own faith lives. But its very important to a buddy of mine, who i think the world of, a project manager trying with great humility to fulfill the faith without the consolation of the Eucharist. Is the lesson in love simply the attempt to show these people that we haven't given up? That we're trying? That we acknowledge them, as we acknowledge the Samaritan woman, as every bit as entitled to God's love as we are?

If that's the lesson, we should be very careful of condemning the Pope' s motives or his methods, but simply acknowledge that we don't understand them and patiently await the Holy Spirit's explanation.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:32 pm

Yes Del, I was serious. :lol:

One of the things that I like about Pope Francis, the Eastern Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) is that role of the pastor is highly valued and important. The tension between canon law and centralized authority and consensus with the leadership of local pastors is very important. So is the pastor, who stands with the Holy Spirit to help sinners patiently. If God showed us all of our sins at once, we would likely fall very hard never to get up again. A pastor knows this too. Which is why this approach is needed and beneficial. The approach doesn’t change the truth, it may recognize culpability to folks who know so much and commit mortal sin, who have the benefit of normal Catholic exposure and it also turns around and shows mercy to the sinner, drawing them closer to the source of truth instead of closing a door upon them before the light even reaches them. Of course the local pastors will have to be aware of local abuse of such mercy. It’s not supposed to change the truth, it’s supposed to help the sinner come to know the truth in the right time for them. And low and behold, the truth just may be hard to discern in some cases, even for pastors. But Jesus didn’t give Saint Peter the keys for nothing. :wink:

Having said that, I don’t entirely agree with the Orthodox approach to divorce and remarriage. It’s canon laws about that subject were forced by the empire. . . Canon law needs to address the needs of people. What is the process to update canon law? I’m sure it can be rectified in no time! :lol:

The Orthodox are having a real problem with canon law these days. So your concern about it is valid, Del.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm

I enjoyed a phone conversation with hugodrax, so I won't answer him here.

Our culture has a problem with treating marriage and sex frivolously.... so many of us have made a great mess of our lives before we ever come to know and desire Christ. Francis is right in urging pastors to address this with pastoral sensitivity. So they need guidelines.

However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Cleon » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:54 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
I enjoyed a phone conversation with hugodrax, so I won't answer him here.

Our culture has a problem with treating marriage and sex frivolously.... so many of us have made a great mess of our lives before we ever come to know and desire Christ. Francis is right in urging pastors to address this with pastoral sensitivity. So they need guidelines.

However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
You should have stopped while you were ahead.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:05 am

Cleon wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:54 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
I enjoyed a phone conversation with hugodrax, so I won't answer him here.

Our culture has a problem with treating marriage and sex frivolously.... so many of us have made a great mess of our lives before we ever come to know and desire Christ. Francis is right in urging pastors to address this with pastoral sensitivity. So they need guidelines.

However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
You should have stopped while you were ahead.
He should have said something along the lines of avoiding the modern American trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it. America has some problems. They aren’t merely Evangelical problems either, in fact faithful Evangelicals succeed about a well as any sort of Christian. Many Americans have forgotten that marriage is a little trinity made up of a husband, wife and the Holy Spirit. All theology and all love starts from the Holy Trinity. If more Americans believed that we wouldn’t have nearly as much trouble over these issues.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:46 am

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:41 am

Thunktank wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:05 am
Cleon wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:54 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
I enjoyed a phone conversation with hugodrax, so I won't answer him here.

Our culture has a problem with treating marriage and sex frivolously.... so many of us have made a great mess of our lives before we ever come to know and desire Christ. Francis is right in urging pastors to address this with pastoral sensitivity. So they need guidelines.

However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
You should have stopped while you were ahead.
He should have said something along the lines of avoiding the modern American trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it. America has some problems. They aren’t merely Evangelical problems either, in fact faithful Evangelicals succeed about a well as any sort of Christian. Many Americans have forgotten that marriage is a little trinity made up of a husband, wife and the Holy Spirit. All theology and all love starts from the Holy Trinity. If more Americans believed that we wouldn’t have nearly as much trouble over these issues.
Your are right.... As Christians, we should avoid the American trap of thinking that whatever we choose to do is okay with God. Specifically, we should be wary of Church leaders who tell us what we want to hear.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:55 am

Del wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:41 am
Thunktank wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:05 am
Cleon wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:54 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
I enjoyed a phone conversation with hugodrax, so I won't answer him here.

Our culture has a problem with treating marriage and sex frivolously.... so many of us have made a great mess of our lives before we ever come to know and desire Christ. Francis is right in urging pastors to address this with pastoral sensitivity. So they need guidelines.

However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
You should have stopped while you were ahead.
He should have said something along the lines of avoiding the modern American trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it. America has some problems. They aren’t merely Evangelical problems either, in fact faithful Evangelicals succeed about a well as any sort of Christian. Many Americans have forgotten that marriage is a little trinity made up of a husband, wife and the Holy Spirit. All theology and all love starts from the Holy Trinity. If more Americans believed that we wouldn’t have nearly as much trouble over these issues.
Your are right.... As Christians, we should avoid the American trap of thinking that whatever we choose to do is okay with God. Specifically, we should be wary of Church leaders who tell us what we want to hear.
Indeed. I think we must also be wary of Church leaders who tell us what we don't want to hear.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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