I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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UncleBob
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:37 am

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:24 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:30 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:04 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:43 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:35 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:21 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:51 pm
sweetandsour wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:41 am
Wow, that's a lot of dirty laundry being hung out right there.
I've begun to wonder if CPS' Catholic related threads have become laundromats, that's for sure. It's as though wosbald takes the dirty garments of Christ's beautiful bride to wash them in a mud puddle for her enemies to see. Stop this!
Yeah. Secrecy is the way to go.
No, it isn't. What doesn't help anything is the constant posting on CPS to a bunch of anti Catholic guys who should also be exposed to the beauty found in the Catholic Church instead of all negativity from Catholics. In other words, my post above is more about CPS, not the dirty laundry itself. Yes, the dirty laundry needs cleaning. But why does wosbald have to post on a constant basis all the dirty intrigue of our church here of all places? For what purpose other than harm it further?
I dunno... transparency, maybe?
Oh yes, it's so very important that you know every little detail of trouble in the Catholic Church. I'm sure you keep track of every little detail about the Kingdom Hall too. Don't turn this around to some ridiculous crusade of transparency. It isn't. I just want to know why wosbald is always the bearer of bad news. He can post what he likes. I would prefer he become more balanced with it, that's all.
Actually I do read up on most religions--including "Kingdom Hall". I have since grad school as my Master's is in Religious Studies. It is about transparency. If the RCC had been transparent about its problems when it happened, much misery would have been avoided.
Oh I “read up on” lots of religions too. Once in a while something hits the news in a big way about one or another of them too. Of course the reporting is all about one or two things about the religion and that’s what the average Joe and Jill judge the religion by unless they have other experience with it. It takes a special disposition to go looking for all the bad stuff in anthing.

What I mean here has nothing to do with transparency. In fact, having some posts on the bad stuff is just fine. We really should be aware of bad stuff. The trouble I personally have with what we have been seeing for the last couple of years since wosbald in particular has decided to post news on CPS about the Church for whatever reason, is how I subjectively perceive it all. Thought he might be interested in knowing how others might perceive his rapid and regular posting. Apparently you approve of it. That’s fine, I just wish he would share more variety. There’s so much more to the Catholic Church than bad news about sinners.

Quite simply, I open up this thread or the Catholic thread thinking to myself, “What bad, horrible, and traumatic news has wosbald found for me today?” It’s not an objective complaint of mine, it’s subjective. I hang out around here sometimes and by golly I just wanted to say that I think all wosbald’s bad news is a real drag after a while. I wish he would share the nice stuff about church life more often. I tried to do that a few times, but for some reason it seems that the only thing people want to talk about concerning the Catholic faith is just the bad stuff. Makes me sad is all. :(

But who knows, maybe I’m the only one!
You should develop a boolean search string for your news aggregater. Every day dozens of stories and news reports are published each day about various religions. Jainism is a particular favorite of mine that has stories all the time.

You want to b*tch? CPS is certainly the place but once again you attempt to tell me what I am thinking when, once again, you have no clue.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:47 am

Join, me, Thunk, in being profoundly grateful for having no idea what Bob thinks. Consider it as one of the mysteries. It is an article of faith that he thinks, but it is not a requirement to know what he is thinking, nor is it within our grasp to comprehend, so why bother? Just love the grumpy bastige.

On a serious note, this thread stinks on ice. If the Church is the Body of Christ, the anatomical analogy must prevail. No need to become proctologists.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:07 am

UncleBob wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:37 am
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:24 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:30 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:04 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:43 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:35 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:21 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:51 pm
sweetandsour wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:41 am


Wow, that's a lot of dirty laundry being hung out right there.
I've begun to wonder if CPS' Catholic related threads have become laundromats, that's for sure. It's as though wosbald takes the dirty garments of Christ's beautiful bride to wash them in a mud puddle for her enemies to see. Stop this!
Yeah. Secrecy is the way to go.
No, it isn't. What doesn't help anything is the constant posting on CPS to a bunch of anti Catholic guys who should also be exposed to the beauty found in the Catholic Church instead of all negativity from Catholics. In other words, my post above is more about CPS, not the dirty laundry itself. Yes, the dirty laundry needs cleaning. But why does wosbald have to post on a constant basis all the dirty intrigue of our church here of all places? For what purpose other than harm it further?
I dunno... transparency, maybe?
Oh yes, it's so very important that you know every little detail of trouble in the Catholic Church. I'm sure you keep track of every little detail about the Kingdom Hall too. Don't turn this around to some ridiculous crusade of transparency. It isn't. I just want to know why wosbald is always the bearer of bad news. He can post what he likes. I would prefer he become more balanced with it, that's all.
Actually I do read up on most religions--including "Kingdom Hall". I have since grad school as my Master's is in Religious Studies. It is about transparency. If the RCC had been transparent about its problems when it happened, much misery would have been avoided.
Oh I “read up on” lots of religions too. Once in a while something hits the news in a big way about one or another of them too. Of course the reporting is all about one or two things about the religion and that’s what the average Joe and Jill judge the religion by unless they have other experience with it. It takes a special disposition to go looking for all the bad stuff in anthing.

What I mean here has nothing to do with transparency. In fact, having some posts on the bad stuff is just fine. We really should be aware of bad stuff. The trouble I personally have with what we have been seeing for the last couple of years since wosbald in particular has decided to post news on CPS about the Church for whatever reason, is how I subjectively perceive it all. Thought he might be interested in knowing how others might perceive his rapid and regular posting. Apparently you approve of it. That’s fine, I just wish he would share more variety. There’s so much more to the Catholic Church than bad news about sinners.

Quite simply, I open up this thread or the Catholic thread thinking to myself, “What bad, horrible, and traumatic news has wosbald found for me today?” It’s not an objective complaint of mine, it’s subjective. I hang out around here sometimes and by golly I just wanted to say that I think all wosbald’s bad news is a real drag after a while. I wish he would share the nice stuff about church life more often. I tried to do that a few times, but for some reason it seems that the only thing people want to talk about concerning the Catholic faith is just the bad stuff. Makes me sad is all. :(

But who knows, maybe I’m the only one!
You should develop a boolean search string for your news aggregater. Every day dozens of stories and news reports are published each day about various religions. Jainism is a particular favorite of mine that has stories all the time.

You want to b*tch? CPS is certainly the place but once again you attempt to tell me what I am thinking when, once again, you have no clue.
Wait a minute. First, I perceived you accusing me of not wanting Church transparency, at which I felt compelled to explain myself further because that’s not what I wanted to portray. And now I’m being accused of telling you what you think? Well no, I’m not, and further, since I don’t know exactly what you think, you would need to try and tell as best you can what you think so that I can understand you better. I can only try, and if I fail, feel free to correct me. It isn’t my desire to misunderstand you, but it may happen anyway because I’m human.

I was hoping we could be on speaking terms again, Bob. Olive branch sent your way.
Last edited by Thunktank on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

“I grew up in a church with Ned Flanders. Down to the mustache. But so did a bunch of people I assume, which makes it so fun-diddly-unny.” -tuttle

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:12 am

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:47 am
Join, me, Thunk, in being profoundly grateful for having no idea what Bob thinks. Consider it as one of the mysteries. It is an article of faith that he thinks, but it is not a requirement to know what he is thinking, nor is it within our grasp to comprehend, so why bother? Just love the grumpy bastige.

On a serious note, this thread stinks on ice. If the Church is the Body of Christ, the anatomical analogy must prevail. No need to become proctologists.
I certainly do NOT know what Bob thinks, that’s for sure.

And yes, I agree, I personally don’t wish for anyone to be a proctologist for the Church here on CPS of all places. Why for goodness sakes? Why wosbald? :lol:
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

“I grew up in a church with Ned Flanders. Down to the mustache. But so did a bunch of people I assume, which makes it so fun-diddly-unny.” -tuttle

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:39 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:07 am
UncleBob wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:37 am
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:24 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:30 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:04 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:43 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:35 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:21 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:51 pm

I've begun to wonder if CPS' Catholic related threads have become laundromats, that's for sure. It's as though wosbald takes the dirty garments of Christ's beautiful bride to wash them in a mud puddle for her enemies to see. Stop this!
Yeah. Secrecy is the way to go.
No, it isn't. What doesn't help anything is the constant posting on CPS to a bunch of anti Catholic guys who should also be exposed to the beauty found in the Catholic Church instead of all negativity from Catholics. In other words, my post above is more about CPS, not the dirty laundry itself. Yes, the dirty laundry needs cleaning. But why does wosbald have to post on a constant basis all the dirty intrigue of our church here of all places? For what purpose other than harm it further?
I dunno... transparency, maybe?
Oh yes, it's so very important that you know every little detail of trouble in the Catholic Church. I'm sure you keep track of every little detail about the Kingdom Hall too. Don't turn this around to some ridiculous crusade of transparency. It isn't. I just want to know why wosbald is always the bearer of bad news. He can post what he likes. I would prefer he become more balanced with it, that's all.
Actually I do read up on most religions--including "Kingdom Hall". I have since grad school as my Master's is in Religious Studies. It is about transparency. If the RCC had been transparent about its problems when it happened, much misery would have been avoided.
Oh I “read up on” lots of religions too. Once in a while something hits the news in a big way about one or another of them too. Of course the reporting is all about one or two things about the religion and that’s what the average Joe and Jill judge the religion by unless they have other experience with it. It takes a special disposition to go looking for all the bad stuff in anthing.

What I mean here has nothing to do with transparency. In fact, having some posts on the bad stuff is just fine. We really should be aware of bad stuff. The trouble I personally have with what we have been seeing for the last couple of years since wosbald in particular has decided to post news on CPS about the Church for whatever reason, is how I subjectively perceive it all. Thought he might be interested in knowing how others might perceive his rapid and regular posting. Apparently you approve of it. That’s fine, I just wish he would share more variety. There’s so much more to the Catholic Church than bad news about sinners.

Quite simply, I open up this thread or the Catholic thread thinking to myself, “What bad, horrible, and traumatic news has wosbald found for me today?” It’s not an objective complaint of mine, it’s subjective. I hang out around here sometimes and by golly I just wanted to say that I think all wosbald’s bad news is a real drag after a while. I wish he would share the nice stuff about church life more often. I tried to do that a few times, but for some reason it seems that the only thing people want to talk about concerning the Catholic faith is just the bad stuff. Makes me sad is all. :(

But who knows, maybe I’m the only one!
You should develop a boolean search string for your news aggregater. Every day dozens of stories and news reports are published each day about various religions. Jainism is a particular favorite of mine that has stories all the time.

You want to b*tch? CPS is certainly the place but once again you attempt to tell me what I am thinking when, once again, you have no clue.
Wait a minute. First, I perceived you accusing me of not wanting Church transparency, at which I felt compelled to explain myself further because that’s not what I wanted to portray. And now I’m being accused of telling you what you think? Well no, I’m not, and further, since I don’t know exactly what you think, you would need to try and tell as best you can what you think so that I can understand you better. I can only try, and if I fail, feel free to correct me. It isn’t my desire to misunderstand you, but it may happen anyway because I’m human.

I was hoping we could be on speaking terms again, Bob. Olive branch sent your way.
Well, skippy, I said these posts were important because of transparency and then you said that it wan't about transparency for me and implied (for some reason) that I only read negative stories about Catholicism even though I said I read all kinds of religious stories. Thats about it. So I did tell you but you told me what I was really thinking.
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:26 pm

+JMJ+

"Viganò/Ouellet" Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 80 / pg 80 / pg 80


Viganòrwellian newspeak: sanctions are sanctions, even when they are not [In Depth, Opinion]
Image

[…]

Instead of acknowledging the huge hole Ouellet’s letter punches on Viganò’s testimony (a death blow in my opinion), anti-Francis critics have, unsurprisingly, doubled down. All across the Catholic social media, the immediate reaction to Ouellet’s intervention was a kneejerk one. “Ouellet is lying.” — they say, supposedly out of fear of reprisals from his superior. After all, the idea of Francis as a “Dictator Pope” is part of the narrative those critics constantly peddle. Of course, Ouellet’s tone is not one of a fearful person who is trying to lay low in fear of his superior… on the contrary, it’s the tone of a person who is in possession of the facts and forcefully presents them as such, showing even a hint of understandable frustration for seeing such a stubborn insistence on statements which are contradicted by those facts.

And here is where the Orwellian redefinition of the word “sanctions” pays off. The argument now is that Ouellet’s clear and unmistakable refutation … does not provide “substantial refutation.” This is indeed Orwellian … if Ouellet’s letter is not a refutation, then nothing in the entire world is a refutation of anything.

[…]

In any case, it doesn’t seem to matter. According to Viganò’s supporters, Francis is guilty, period. And Viganò is correct, because he says Francis is guilty. What exactly makes Francis guilty is secondary. As I said in another article, the papal critics “just uncritically accepted what was being spoon-fed them, since they were attacking the Pope long before the pedophilia case broke out, thereby casting doubt on their objectivity. The verdict against Francis had already been issued beforehand, what was missing was the accusation that would meet such verdict … and a pedophilia scandal would be just the ticket.”

People may say that I’m overreacting, but how can we explain it otherwise? Viganò’s testimony is accepted at face value, no matter how much inconsistencies and denials contradict it. If someone with authority and knowledge states Viganò is wrong, then it must be because that person is lying. If someone categorically rejects the existence of sanctions, then what that person said is spun in order to prove the sanctions existed. And there were sanctions, even when they were not sanctions, but they were still sanctions insofar as they validate Viganò’s testimony. Viganò can invert the burden of proof and demand that Francis prove his innocence by releasing documents whose existence is uncertain, apart from Viganò’s own testimony (in other words, circular reasoning and petitio principii.) If those documents are not released, then that is proof that Viganò is right (the archbishop states so on his second testimony.) If they are released, but do not prove what Viganò says it proves, then it is because the documents were tainted. In other words, Viganò’s testimony is non-falsifiable.

In this sense, I can only once again commend Pope Francis’ wisdom in maintaining silence before this crowd. All those who have asked for years that the Pope would clarify his teachings, have now shown what they would’ve done if Francis would’ve given them a clear answer (just like Ouellet’s is) they would have disagreed with. They would just spin the Pope’s clarifications in a way better suited for their ideological narrative, just like they did now. And all those insistent cries for an investigation are paradoxical, since they have proven they are not open to be led to “wherever truth may lead them” (as the Vatican statement puts it), but are rather searching for an “investigation” that would corroborate their pre-made conclusions.

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:04 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:39 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:07 am
UncleBob wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:37 am
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:24 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:30 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:04 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:43 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:35 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:21 pm


Yeah. Secrecy is the way to go.
No, it isn't. What doesn't help anything is the constant posting on CPS to a bunch of anti Catholic guys who should also be exposed to the beauty found in the Catholic Church instead of all negativity from Catholics. In other words, my post above is more about CPS, not the dirty laundry itself. Yes, the dirty laundry needs cleaning. But why does wosbald have to post on a constant basis all the dirty intrigue of our church here of all places? For what purpose other than harm it further?
I dunno... transparency, maybe?
Oh yes, it's so very important that you know every little detail of trouble in the Catholic Church. I'm sure you keep track of every little detail about the Kingdom Hall too. Don't turn this around to some ridiculous crusade of transparency. It isn't. I just want to know why wosbald is always the bearer of bad news. He can post what he likes. I would prefer he become more balanced with it, that's all.
Actually I do read up on most religions--including "Kingdom Hall". I have since grad school as my Master's is in Religious Studies. It is about transparency. If the RCC had been transparent about its problems when it happened, much misery would have been avoided.
Oh I “read up on” lots of religions too. Once in a while something hits the news in a big way about one or another of them too. Of course the reporting is all about one or two things about the religion and that’s what the average Joe and Jill judge the religion by unless they have other experience with it. It takes a special disposition to go looking for all the bad stuff in anthing.

What I mean here has nothing to do with transparency. In fact, having some posts on the bad stuff is just fine. We really should be aware of bad stuff. The trouble I personally have with what we have been seeing for the last couple of years since wosbald in particular has decided to post news on CPS about the Church for whatever reason, is how I subjectively perceive it all. Thought he might be interested in knowing how others might perceive his rapid and regular posting. Apparently you approve of it. That’s fine, I just wish he would share more variety. There’s so much more to the Catholic Church than bad news about sinners.

Quite simply, I open up this thread or the Catholic thread thinking to myself, “What bad, horrible, and traumatic news has wosbald found for me today?” It’s not an objective complaint of mine, it’s subjective. I hang out around here sometimes and by golly I just wanted to say that I think all wosbald’s bad news is a real drag after a while. I wish he would share the nice stuff about church life more often. I tried to do that a few times, but for some reason it seems that the only thing people want to talk about concerning the Catholic faith is just the bad stuff. Makes me sad is all. :(

But who knows, maybe I’m the only one!
You should develop a boolean search string for your news aggregater. Every day dozens of stories and news reports are published each day about various religions. Jainism is a particular favorite of mine that has stories all the time.

You want to b*tch? CPS is certainly the place but once again you attempt to tell me what I am thinking when, once again, you have no clue.
Wait a minute. First, I perceived you accusing me of not wanting Church transparency, at which I felt compelled to explain myself further because that’s not what I wanted to portray. And now I’m being accused of telling you what you think? Well no, I’m not, and further, since I don’t know exactly what you think, you would need to try and tell as best you can what you think so that I can understand you better. I can only try, and if I fail, feel free to correct me. It isn’t my desire to misunderstand you, but it may happen anyway because I’m human.

I was hoping we could be on speaking terms again, Bob. Olive branch sent your way.
Well, skippy, I said these posts were important because of transparency and then you said that it wan't about transparency for me and implied (for some reason) that I only read negative stories about Catholicism even though I said I read all kinds of religious stories. Thats about it. So I did tell you but you told me what I was really thinking.
What are you talking about? I most certainly did not say most of that to you specifically or about you at all! Hardly any of it in fact. My objections to the posts were not about about transparency to me. It was about transparency to you apparently. Then I explained to you why it wasn't for me. I never said that you only read negative news about religion, I did say that lots of news about religion is negative and that is what people in general judge religions upon.

I'm done here and wosbald just keeps right on posting this stuff anyway, go figure. As you said, CPS is a great place to b*tch.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

“I grew up in a church with Ned Flanders. Down to the mustache. But so did a bunch of people I assume, which makes it so fun-diddly-unny.” -tuttle

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by durangopipe » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:35 am

Pope blames devil for Church divisions, scandals, seeks angel's help

"The Church has recently been hit by one sexual abuse scandal after another, from Germany, to the United States, to Chile. At the same time, a deepening polarization between conservatives and liberals in the Church has played out on social media."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Catholics are being asked to recite the rosary daily in October and conclude it with a prayer to St. Michael that was said after Mass until 1964 but then fell into disuse.

"The prayer reads:

'St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O Prince of heavenly hosts, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan, and all evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.' "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Forgive me for posting this without comment.
I believe it speaks for itself.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:59 am

+JMJ+

"Viganò/Ouellet" Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 80 / pg 80 / pg 80 / pg 81


US bishops must recapture spirit of collegial governance [Opinion]
Image
Clergy pray during Mass June 14, 2017, at SS. Peter and Paul Cathedral in Indianapolis during the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' annual spring assembly. (CNS /The Criterion/Sean Gallagher)

The Vatican announced last weekend that Pope Francis has ordered an internal investigation of all files related to the case of the former Cardinal Theodore McCarrick. The statement clearly indicated that the pope recognized the need to cross the bridge that was deemed too far in 2002: Bishops will now be held accountable just as other clergy.

[…]

If the Vatican's statement last Saturday was not enough to confound the pope's critics, Cardinal Marc Ouellet's scorching open letter for ex-nuncio Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò blew the lid off the kettle. In devastating detail, he explained how far from reality were Viganò's allegations, reintroducing the kind of context certain conservative journalists preferred to ignore. …

[…]

… One of the most disturbing aspects of much media coverage has been the way news reports repeated the myth that McCarrick had some kind of newfound influence under Francis, and repeated it as a fact needing no substantiation. The source of these claims was always McCarrick himself, which should have made people suspicious. Ouellet has now exploded it as fiction.

Ouellet is no liberal. Yet he distinguishes himself from the sex-obsessed, Jansenistic American opposition to Francis, who saw in Viganò an ally; for example, someone they could count on to smuggle anti-gay zealot Kim Davis in to meet the pope. With these words, Ouellet restores some balance in moral assessment: "Furthermore, the fact that there could be in the Vatican persons who practice or support sexual behavior that is contrary to the values of the Gospel, does not authorize us to make generalizations or to declare unworthy and complicit this or that individual, including the Holy Father himself. Should not ministers of the truth avoid above all calumny and defamation?" Amen. Viganò cast aspersions far and wide in his testimonies, and they were eagerly spread by his allies in conservative media outlets.

Image
Michael Brendan Dougherty's tweet

Will those allies show any remorse? Will they correct the record? It would be nice to see nouveau Catholic authority and alternative magisterium Ross Douthat at least issue a public apology to Pope Francis for publishing — on the same weekend — a column pretending to be analysis but which really does nothing more than link a couple of conservative conspiracy theories and tweets from fringe commentators into an attack on the pope, almost all of it exploded by the Ouellet letter. He cites, as he often does, Michael Brendan Dougherty, a man who tweeted on Monday in response to Massimo Faggioli's fine commentary on the influence of money in the U.S. church: "This is quite funny. Faced with the near certainty of the Vatican sending America more sex predators as bishops and Cardinals, Americans desperately try to use the one thing they have, money, to stop the inevitable. And now they get blamed for that too." Really??? This is lunacy, lunacy so stark it makes one feel dirty just reading it but which one takes in stride coming from a man who publishes mostly at National Review and The Week. But Douthat? He is a gifted writer to be sure, but why his editors let him publish on a subject about which he is so consistently ill-informed is beyond me.

The most remarkable fact about the Ouellet letter is its passion. When he was named as archbishop of Quebec back in 2002, a friend, who like Ouellet is a Sulpician, described him as highly intelligent but a cold fish, better suited to the lecture hall or a corner office than to a pastoral ministry. A few years back, I met Ouellet as we both were boarding the same plane. I am a gregarious sort, so I introduced myself, mentioned some friends in common and got precisely nowhere. Now, perhaps he had a lot on his mind, but I think he is one of those people who is simply a bit standoffish and cold. To read these fierce words in defense of a pope who does not share his theological perspective but with whom he has collaborated for more than five years, this was a welcome surprise.

The saga continues. I will have more on the synod next week. In the meantime, however, Francis has again risen above the fears of his friends and the doubts spread by his enemies, secure in his own person, adult, a leader, precisely the spiritual leader the church needs at this moment.
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Adam Z » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:25 am

It is not often that I see a headline about something the current pope said and then I read it and agree - but this time I do agree, and I'll give credit where it's due.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/10/1 ... -a-problem

:thumbsup:

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:25 am

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:47 am
Join, me, Thunk, in being profoundly grateful for having no idea what Bob thinks. Consider it as one of the mysteries. It is an article of faith that he thinks, but it is not a requirement to know what he is thinking, nor is it within our grasp to comprehend, so why bother? Just love the grumpy bastige.

On a serious note, this thread stinks on ice. If the Church is the Body of Christ, the anatomical analogy must prevail. No need to become proctologists.
FAITH is a firmly held belief, based on the testimony of a reliable authority.

Can you cite a reliable source?

I've got Genesis 1:27... but I'm looking for something more recent.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:27 am

Adam Z wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:25 am
It is not often that I see a headline about something the current pope said and then I read it and agree - but this time I do agree, and I'll give credit where it's due.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2018/10/1 ... -a-problem

:thumbsup:
Well, to be fair, the Pope has never read a newspaper article about you he's agreed with. You ever look at it that way?
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:29 am

Del wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:25 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:47 am
Join, me, Thunk, in being profoundly grateful for having no idea what Bob thinks. Consider it as one of the mysteries. It is an article of faith that he thinks, but it is not a requirement to know what he is thinking, nor is it within our grasp to comprehend, so why bother? Just love the grumpy bastige.

On a serious note, this thread stinks on ice. If the Church is the Body of Christ, the anatomical analogy must prevail. No need to become proctologists.
FAITH is a firmly held belief, based on the testimony of a reliable authority.

Can you cite a reliable source?

I've got Genesis 1:27... but I'm looking for something more recent.
Dont go protestant on me, boy. There's Scripture and there is Tradition. Besides, I heard he came from Nazareth.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:29 am

All 15 Texas Catholic dioceses to name accused priests
All 15 Catholic dioceses in Texas will release early next year the names of clergy who have been "credibly accused" of sexual abuse of a minor, the Diocese of Dallas said in a statement Wednesday.

Texas bishops decided last month to release the lists of names by Jan. 31 as part of their effort "to protect children from sexual abuse" while promoting "healing and a restoration of trust" in the church, the statement said.

Dallas Bishop Edward Burns said the investigation constitutes a "major project" because it will include all 1,320 Catholic parishes in Texas.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:45 am

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:53 am

Reading over the last few pages...

Weird. I though wos' posts were basically Vatican spin rather than the airing of dirty laundry. Of all the negative stories clogging the internet about the RCC, wos' CPS reporting seems to me to be very much in the 'positive' stream.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:27 pm

+JMJ+

Pope Francis tells local children of TPS immigrants: ‘To migrate is a human right’
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Joseph Urias, 12, saying goodbye to his mother, Ibania Gil, at Logan Airport on Oct. 7. Urias and other students flew to Rome to meet with Pope Francis Oct. 10 to ask for his help to protect their parents from deportation from the US. Photo by Matthew J. Lee/Globe staff

“Many of us with TPS are active members of the Catholic Church,” said Jose Palma, a member of the Massachusetts TPS Committee. “We thought, why not ask the leader of our church to unite in solidarity with us?”

On the trip, Urias managed to finish his homework during free moments. Three sisters from Malden prayed together every night before bed as they do back home. All fear losing their parents, who have lived in the United States for years. The majority own homes and businesses.

“I’m a little nervous. [The Pope] is a really important person and he really would help us, and I feel like if I mess one thing up it would be bad and I don’t want to do that,” said Urias, a Malden seventh grader, before he left. “This is where I was born and this is my country, and I don’t want to go somewhere else that I’ve never been to.”

The group met Pope Francis Oct. 10 outside Saint Peter’s Basilica at the Vatican after he spoke on Wednesday. He listened to their story, accepted a T-shirt and a letter, and told the group to keep fighting.

“To migrate is a human right, is that clear?” Francis said to the group in a video of the meeting. “And no one can prevent that. Never forget.”

Mission completed, the kids woke up at 5 a.m. on Sunday to await the canonization ceremony of Óscar Romero, the fourth Archbishop of San Salvador and El Salvador’s first saint. Romero was assassinated in 1980 and remembered as a voice for the voiceless, speaking out against social injustice and poverty, and promoting human rights.

The students hope is that Pope Francis will read their letter and join them in the spring when they travel to Washington, D.C., to convince Congress to find their parents a path to permanent residency.

“In these hard times we need people with a voice like the Pope’s on our side,” said Francisca Landaverde, 14. “I know if he’s with us we’re going to win.”

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:04 am

+JMJ+

Kasper sees no ‘substantial difference’ between Benedict and Francis
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German Cardinal Walter Kasper is pictured before Pope Francis's celebration of vespers on New Year's Eve in St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican Dec. 31, 2017. In a March 5 interview, Cardinal Kasper said that the indissolubility of marriage has not been called into question by Pope Francis. (Credit: CNS)

ROME — As one of the major protagonists of the Francis papacy — and arguably of the Catholic Church since Vatican II — German Cardinal Walter Kasper argues, “there is no real substantial difference between Pope Benedict and Pope Francis.”

“They are different personalities of course, different backgrounds,” said Kasper. “One is European, the other comes from Latin America. [But] if you read exactly what they write, it’s the same line and substance.”

Kasper’s comments came in an interview with Crux following an award ceremony in which he received the “Civitas Dei” medal from Villanova University on Thursday.

[…]

Kasper, who headed the Vatican office for Christian Unity from 2001 to 2010, was feted, in the words of Villanova professor Massimo Faggioli, as an “outstanding example of the ethos of a Catholic theologian, as an academic and a man of the Church,” and lauded by Suzanne Wentzel, director of research and publications at Villanova, as a theologian who “pulls the faithful back from the brink,” preaching strictly the good news be it “left, right, or straight up the middle.”

[…]

Kasper became a leading figure during the 2014 and 2015 Synods on the Family, and is widely viewed as the architect of the final document’s cautious opening to communion for divorced and remarried Catholics.

Francis publicly praised his book, Mercy, in which he first outlined the proposal, soon after his election in 2013.

Kasper told Crux that he was happy to be on the sidelines of the current synod, while lamenting that certain controversies from the previous two synods have overshadowed both his and the pope’s intent.

“I think mercy doesn’t mean you give up everything. It’s not against justice. Mercy is for justice, the Christian form of justice of God, which forgives us and makes us just,” he held. “I do not understand all the problems they have with it.”

Five years after Francis first praised Kasper, he is returning the favor, saying Francis has taught the world a new way of being pope.

“This cannot be any longer a European Church or a Western Church,” Kasper said, “but a Church for the whole world.”

“There is no one way to be a pope,” he maintained. “The Petrine office has had many changes during history.”

“I am very much in favor of this pope,” he added.

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:28 pm

+JMJ+

"Viganò/Ouellet" Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 80 / pg 80 / pg 80 / pg 81 / pg 81


Ex-papal envoy denounces ‘scourge of homosexuality’ in abuse crisis
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(Left) Former papal nuncio to the United States, Italian Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, and (Right) Canadian Cardinal Marc Ouellet, prefect of the Vatican’s Congregation for Bishops. (Credit: CNS)

ROME — In a new and now third public letter, a former Vatican envoy to the United States said the Vatican’s top official for overseeing bishops confirmed many of his accusations of negligence in the handling of an infamous ex-cardinal charged with sexual abuse and once again pointed to homosexuality as the cause of the abuse crisis facing the Catholic Church.

“Cardinal [Marc] Ouellet concedes the important claims that I did and do make, and disputes claims I don’t make and never made,” said Italian Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò in a letter published on the blog of Italian conservative journalist Marco Tosatti Oct. 19.

Earlier this month, Ouellet, prefect of the Vatican’s Congregation for Bishops, published a letter accusing Viganò of a political “frame job” and a “deplorable and incomprehensible attack” on Pope Francis, after Viganò accused the pontiff of knowing about sexual misconduct concerns regarding ex-Cardinal Theodore McCarrick in 2013 and taking no action. In his original letter released Aug. 26, Viganò called on Francis to resign.

[…]

Ouellet also stated that there were no formal “sanctions” against McCarrick imposed by Pope emeritus Benedict XVI that Francis ignored, contrary to Viganò’s allegation.

In what has become a Vatican “he said-he said” scenario, Viganò answered Ouellet’s letter by stating that his rebuke has reinforced him in his decision and, furthermore, serves to “vindicate” his claims.

[…]

While Viganò admits in his latest letter they [the sanctions, formerly alleged by Viganò} “were not technically ‘sanctions’ but provisions,” he also added that to “quibble” over the distinction is a matter of “pure legalism” and that “from a pastoral point of view they are exactly the same thing.”

[…]

Viagnò shared a timeline of what he states were his interactions with Ouellet and Francis concerning the McCarrick case. On June 21, 2013, he states that Francis spoke “cryptically to him about the U.S. episcopacy” and that two days later the pontiff asked him what he made of McCarrick, but no action was taken.

“Pope Francis himself has either colluded in this corruption, or, knowing what he does, is gravely negligent in failing to oppose it and uproot it,” Viganò said.

Finally, the letter points to “two dramatic silences,” the first being the plight of victims and the second being “the corrupting influence of homosexuality in the priesthood.”

“This is a crisis due to the scourge of homosexuality, in its agents, in its motives, in its resistance to reform,” he wrote. “It is no exaggeration to say that homosexuality has become a plague in the clergy, and it can only be eradicated with spiritual weapons.”

While the letter opened with an acknowledgement of the “alarm and dismay” that his allegations against Francis and the Vatican would entail, it concludes by appealing to other bishops and priests who can confirm and support his claims to speak.
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:38 am

+JMJ+

Synod groups on sexuality: Church welcomes all, calls all to conversion
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Bishops and cardinals attend a session of the Synod of Bishops on young people, the faith and vocational discernment at the Vatican Oct. 18. (Credit: Paul Haring/CNS.)

VATICAN CITY — No one is excluded from the love of God or from being welcomed into the Catholic Church, but God’s love and the Church’s welcome also come with a call to conversion, said the English-language groups at the Synod of Bishops.

Young people need to know “the Church’s beautiful, yet challenging, vision, teaching and anthropology of the body, sexuality, love and life, marriage and chastity,” said the English-A group.

“At the same time, we restate the Church’s opposition to discrimination against any person or group, and her insistence that God loves every young person, and so does the Church,” the group said in its report.

The reports, published by the Vatican Oct. 20, were the result of reflections in the small groups — divided by language — on the final chapter of the synod working document, which dealt with “pastoral and missionary conversion.”

[…]

None of the synod groups in any language used the term “LGBT,” but many of them did refer to a need to help young people who struggle with Church teaching on sexuality or, more explicitly, those who experience “same-sex attraction.”

The English-B group said that it “discussed the issue of Catholics who experience same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria,” which refers to believing one’s biological sex does not correspond to his or her true identity.

[…]

The English-D group said it, too, “spent a good deal of time reflecting on the motif of the Church’s stance of welcome and inclusivity. We fully and enthusiastically acknowledge that the Church of Jesus Christ reaches out in love to absolutely everyone.”

“No one, on account of gender, lifestyle or sexual orientation, should ever be made to feel unloved, uncared for,” the group said. “However, as St. Thomas Aquinas specifies, love means ‘willing the good of the other.’ And this is why authentic love by no means excludes the call to conversion, to change of life.”

[…]

The English-C group, like many others, noted that while the synod can provide general suggestions for listening to young people and involving them in the life of the Church, individual parishes and dioceses will need to find specific ways to put those suggestions into practice.

“We suggest that episcopal conferences be strongly invited to take up the results of the synod and engage in a similar process of reflection in their own milieus, even including non-bishops in the deliberations, as this synod has done,” the group said.
======================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================

Bishops press for abuse scandals, women and more to be in final text [In-Depth]
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Cardinals and bishops leave the Synod Hall at the end of a morning session of the Synod of bishops at the Vatican, Thursday, Oct. 11, 2018. The meeting of bishops on young people runs from Oct. 3-28. (Credit: AP Photo/Alessandra Tarantino)

ROME — As a monthlong summit of bishops in Rome enters its final week, the latest round of reports from small working groups organized by language released on Saturday suggests a growing impatience to get practical.

Topics the groups want addressed range from clerical sexual abuse scandals and justice for women in the Church, to migration, the environment, human trafficking and more.

The Synod of Bishops on young people, faith and vocational discernment is taking place in Rome Oct. 3-28, marking the third synod under Pope Francis after two dedicated to the family in 2014 and 2015.

As before, the working groups were asked to organize their reflections in terms of reactions to the Instrumentum laboris, or working document, presented shortly before the meeting.

The following are summaries of each of the small group reports prepared by Crux staff.

The Germans

[…]

English-speakers

[…]

The Italians

[…]

French-speakers

[…]

Spanish-speakers

[…]

Portuguese-speakers

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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