I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:23 am

+JMJ+

Don't like that pope? Read what he wrote. [Opinion]
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Pope Benedict XVI signs a copy of his encyclical, "Caritas in Veritate" ("Charity in Truth"), at the Vatican July 6, 2009, which addresses the global economic crisis. (CNS/L'Osservatore Romano/Catholic Press Photo)

The whole world now knows that Pope Francis is more or less fed up with some of his critics. His comment about it being an "honor" to be attacked by conservative Catholics in the U.S. made that clear for all to see. Francis had just been presented with a copy of a new book by French author Nicolas Seneze, which catalogues conservative Catholic efforts, largely American, to influence this pope or to limit his influence and undermine his efforts. The fallout from the pope's comment is kind of fun to watch. Last week, EWTN host Raymond Arroyo began his hour-long show with an eight minute "commentary" that pronounced the pope's comment="troubling." I actually found the pope's candor refreshing.

Arroyo referred to a "string of lazy articles." He went on: "This is tired, and, frankly, a fact-free narrative." He complained that it had been peddled mostly by "Europeans and progressive Americans" and claimed these critics "make the mistake of casting orthodox Catholics in America as right-wingers, players in a political plot to undo the agenda of Francis." He countered this portrayal, saying, "The truth is much more simple. American Catholics actually believe what the church has always taught, and they're loud enough and have big enough platforms to broadcast that belief." Arroyo insisted that "all traditional Catholics have done is ask questions."

Arroyo unwittingly confirmed the thesis he was trying to debunk when he concluded: "The truth is this is all a craven attempt to demonize and purge voices form the church who dare to question the radical changes that are under way and the brutal tactics used to enact them." Radical changes? Brutal tactics?

[…]

Me thinks the pope touched a nerve. Arroyo's rant sounded like nothing so much as the wild excuses a child makes when caught pilfering the cookie jar. To be clear, if I were in his shoes, I would be upset also. I would be upset if I thought my pals owned the church and someone had come along and taken it away from us.

[…]

I wish to send Arroyo and other conservative Catholics an invitation, one that I received a long time ago and from which I derived enormous benefit. During the more conservative pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, friends encouraged me to read their writings with an open mind, not to dismiss them because they were so conservative. Of course, in the area of Catholic social teaching, there has been enormous continuity, not only across the last three pontificates but stretching all the way back to Pope Leo XIII. But, when I read some of the writings of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, from his early work Introduction to Christianity to the trilogy on Jesus of Nazareth that he wrote while pope, I not only learned a great deal, I had my faith strengthened by the insights he discerned. Here is the column I wrote the day after his resignation. I was not yet a writer when Pope John Paul II issued Novo Millennio Ineunte, but I remember thinking it was a magnificent document that made me stretch in ways I would not have done if I had simply stuck to my more liberal Catholic texts.

So, instead of painting Francis in such a harsh and negative light, rather than poking fun at synods, or highlighting and even championing a score-settling text like Viganò's "testimony," I invite conservative Catholics to come to Francis and his teachings with an open heart and an open mind. I hope they might find, as I did with his conservative predecessors, an opportunity to stretch their faith, which always leads to an expansion and a deepening of that faith as well. It is a big church, and there is room for everybody. The alternative is the emergence of a sectarian, para-schismatic church in the United States. And, if a full-blown schism were to occur, its source would largely be found on EWTN.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:08 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:23 am
+JMJ+

Don't like that pope? Read what he wrote. [Opinion]
Image
Pope Benedict XVI signs a copy of his encyclical, "Caritas in Veritate" ("Charity in Truth"), at the Vatican July 6, 2009, which addresses the global economic crisis. (CNS/L'Osservatore Romano/Catholic Press Photo)

The whole world now knows that Pope Francis is more or less fed up with some of his critics. His comment about it being an "honor" to be attacked by conservative Catholics in the U.S. made that clear for all to see. Francis had just been presented with a copy of a new book by French author Nicolas Seneze, which catalogues conservative Catholic efforts, largely American, to influence this pope or to limit his influence and undermine his efforts. The fallout from the pope's comment is kind of fun to watch. Last week, EWTN host Raymond Arroyo began his hour-long show with an eight minute "commentary" that pronounced the pope's comment="troubling." I actually found the pope's candor refreshing.

Arroyo referred to a "string of lazy articles." He went on: "This is tired, and, frankly, a fact-free narrative." He complained that it had been peddled mostly by "Europeans and progressive Americans" and claimed these critics "make the mistake of casting orthodox Catholics in America as right-wingers, players in a political plot to undo the agenda of Francis." He countered this portrayal, saying, "The truth is much more simple. American Catholics actually believe what the church has always taught, and they're loud enough and have big enough platforms to broadcast that belief." Arroyo insisted that "all traditional Catholics have done is ask questions."

Arroyo unwittingly confirmed the thesis he was trying to debunk when he concluded: "The truth is this is all a craven attempt to demonize and purge voices form the church who dare to question the radical changes that are under way and the brutal tactics used to enact them." Radical changes? Brutal tactics?

[…]

Me thinks the pope touched a nerve. Arroyo's rant sounded like nothing so much as the wild excuses a child makes when caught pilfering the cookie jar. To be clear, if I were in his shoes, I would be upset also. I would be upset if I thought my pals owned the church and someone had come along and taken it away from us.

[…]

I wish to send Arroyo and other conservative Catholics an invitation, one that I received a long time ago and from which I derived enormous benefit. During the more conservative pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, friends encouraged me to read their writings with an open mind, not to dismiss them because they were so conservative. Of course, in the area of Catholic social teaching, there has been enormous continuity, not only across the last three pontificates but stretching all the way back to Pope Leo XIII. But, when I read some of the writings of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, from his early work Introduction to Christianity to the trilogy on Jesus of Nazareth that he wrote while pope, I not only learned a great deal, I had my faith strengthened by the insights he discerned. Here is the column I wrote the day after his resignation. I was not yet a writer when Pope John Paul II issued Novo Millennio Ineunte, but I remember thinking it was a magnificent document that made me stretch in ways I would not have done if I had simply stuck to my more liberal Catholic texts.

So, instead of painting Francis in such a harsh and negative light, rather than poking fun at synods, or highlighting and even championing a score-settling text like Viganò's "testimony," I invite conservative Catholics to come to Francis and his teachings with an open heart and an open mind. I hope they might find, as I did with his conservative predecessors, an opportunity to stretch their faith, which always leads to an expansion and a deepening of that faith as well. It is a big church, and there is room for everybody. The alternative is the emergence of a sectarian, para-schismatic church in the United States. And, if a full-blown schism were to occur, its source would largely be found on EWTN.
A huge part of the problem is that there is a liberal vs conservative divide. This is what happens when the central tenets of faith are neglected and intellectualism replaces the full practice of faith. The church shouldn’t be held captive to the philosophies of men. The philosophies should be held in subservience to Orthodoxy and praxis.

The Eastern Churches often have disagreements, many of which we are seeing being argued now. Marriage, divorce and the death penalty are and have been long argued over in the eastern churches. But they are always kept in check by our insistence in holding to the faith delivered once for all. Sometimes it’s not always clearly remembered what exactly was once delivered, which is why we need councils and Popes. But still, we must keep the orthodoxy firmly planted and innovation at bay. When so called “liberals” begin their innovative reconstructions based on their own scholastic endeavors while adopting attitudes in which they think they know better than their Fathers; well this is what happens. Smart fools are doing this.

There are some things we cannot get dogmatic about, I think. There are other things that have been quite dogmatic for 2000 years. People these days are getting confused about them I think. “Liberals” and “conservatives” seem to forget that the Catholic Churches aren’t of this world.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:26 am

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:08 am

“Liberals” and “conservatives” seem to forget that the Catholic Churches aren’t of this world.
What JPII said :thumbsup:
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:56 am

+JMJ+


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:45 am

Query: Does liking this Pope necessarily entail hating everybody who doesn't?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:32 pm

+JMJ+

On American critics, Pope says he doesn’t want a schism but he’s not afraid of it [In-Depth]
Image
Pope Francis waves goodbye as he boards the plane for Rome at the end of his three-nation African tour at Antananarivo's International Airport, Madagascar, Tuesday, Sept.10, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Alexander Joe)

“There always is the schismatic option in the Church,” Francis said. “It’s a choice that the Lord leaves to human freedom. I am not afraid of schism … I pray for them not to happen, as the spiritual health of many people is at stake.”

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE — In response to a question about his recent declaration that he’s honored when “Americans are attacking me,” Pope Francis said Tuesday that while he prays to avoid a schism in the Catholic Church, he’s not afraid of it either, because such rifts have occurred throughout history.

Francis also acknowledged that the U.S. is hardly the only place from which he occasionally draws fire, noting that he also has some critics within the Roman Curia, meaning the administrative bureaucracy of the Vatican itself.

Further, Francis also said that criticism isn’t always destructive, especially when it’s delivered in the open rather than behind one’s back.

[…]

Francis then said that it’s the people of God who ultimately save the Church from schism, because all such movements have one thing in common: “They’re a split from the people, from the faith of the people, from the people of God.”

A schism, Francis said, is an ideology that can sometimes have a point, but which “enters into doctrine and splits it apart.”

Francis’s remarks came as he answered questions from the nearly 70 journalists who traveled with him during his Sept. 4-10 visit to Mozambique, Madagascar and Mauritius.

[…]

The pope swiftly observed that Americans aren’t his only critics.

“Criticism comes not only from the Americans, they’re coming from all over, including the Curia,” he said.

Francis also praised those who criticize him to his face, “having the honesty of saying” their objections out loud. “I don’t like it when criticism is done under the table… when they smile and then stick the knife from behind. This is not loyal.”

Criticism, he insisted, can be a constructive tool. When a person issue a criticism that isn’t fair, the pope said, he or she should be ready for a response and to dialogue about it.

On the other hand, Francis said, a critic who cloaks his or her objections behind a façade is “an arsenic pill, a bit like throwing a stone and hiding your hand. This doesn’t help, and it comes from closed [minded] people who don’t want to hear the answer.”

When it comes to criticizing the pope, he said, “saying what you don’t like, writing an article and asking for a response, this is loyal. This is loving the Church. Instead, voicing a criticism without dialogue [and] without wanting an answer, is not loving the Church … [it’s to want to] change the pope, make a schism.”

Answering the same question, Francis said that those who criticize him for following the Second Vatican Council and for speaking about social issues, “saying [the same] things John Paul II said,” and who label him as “a bit communist,” are injecting ideology into doctrine, “and that’s when schism occurs.”

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:04 pm

wosbald wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:32 pm
+JMJ+

On American critics, Pope says he doesn’t want a schism but he’s not afraid of it [In-Depth]
Image
Pope Francis waves goodbye as he boards the plane for Rome at the end of his three-nation African tour at Antananarivo's International Airport, Madagascar, Tuesday, Sept.10, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Alexander Joe)

“There always is the schismatic option in the Church,” Francis said. “It’s a choice that the Lord leaves to human freedom. I am not afraid of schism … I pray for them not to happen, as the spiritual health of many people is at stake.”

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE — In response to a question about his recent declaration that he’s honored when “Americans are attacking me,” Pope Francis said Tuesday that while he prays to avoid a schism in the Catholic Church, he’s not afraid of it either, because such rifts have occurred throughout history.

Francis also acknowledged that the U.S. is hardly the only place from which he occasionally draws fire, noting that he also has some critics within the Roman Curia, meaning the administrative bureaucracy of the Vatican itself.

Further, Francis also said that criticism isn’t always destructive, especially when it’s delivered in the open rather than behind one’s back.

[…]

Francis then said that it’s the people of God who ultimately save the Church from schism, because all such movements have one thing in common: “They’re a split from the people, from the faith of the people, from the people of God.”

A schism, Francis said, is an ideology that can sometimes have a point, but which “enters into doctrine and splits it apart.”

Francis’s remarks came as he answered questions from the nearly 70 journalists who traveled with him during his Sept. 4-10 visit to Mozambique, Madagascar and Mauritius.

[…]

The pope swiftly observed that Americans aren’t his only critics.

“Criticism comes not only from the Americans, they’re coming from all over, including the Curia,” he said.

Francis also praised those who criticize him to his face, “having the honesty of saying” their objections out loud. “I don’t like it when criticism is done under the table… when they smile and then stick the knife from behind. This is not loyal.”

Criticism, he insisted, can be a constructive tool. When a person issue a criticism that isn’t fair, the pope said, he or she should be ready for a response and to dialogue about it.

On the other hand, Francis said, a critic who cloaks his or her objections behind a façade is “an arsenic pill, a bit like throwing a stone and hiding your hand. This doesn’t help, and it comes from closed [minded] people who don’t want to hear the answer.”

When it comes to criticizing the pope, he said, “saying what you don’t like, writing an article and asking for a response, this is loyal. This is loving the Church. Instead, voicing a criticism without dialogue [and] without wanting an answer, is not loving the Church … [it’s to want to] change the pope, make a schism.”

Answering the same question, Francis said that those who criticize him for following the Second Vatican Council and for speaking about social issues, “saying [the same] things John Paul II said,” and who label him as “a bit communist,” are injecting ideology into doctrine, “and that’s when schism occurs.”

[…]
Based on that logic, he should have probably answered the dubia. Perhaps dialogue could have happened.

I understand why he did not, though. :lol:
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:47 pm

I picked a hell of a time to become Catholic.

The Orthodox have their own divisions too though.

I don’t like to dwell on. It does no good.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:06 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:47 pm
I picked a hell of a time to become Catholic.

The Orthodox have their own divisions too though.

I don’t like to dwell on. It does no good.
Absolutely. I go to mass and keep my faith. The Pope is the Pope. The mass is the mass. We will all survive.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:35 am

+JMJ+




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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:15 pm

wosbald wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:35 am
+JMJ+



Get <zederated> Wosbald. It would improve your outlook immeasurably.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:09 am

+JMJ+

The Synthesis of All Catholic Conspiracy Theory (Part 2)
Image
Statue of Giordano Bruno in Rome (Source: Wikimedia Commons_

In my last post I summarized part of the grand conspiracy laid out in Taylor Marshall’s Infiltration, in order to refute his claim that his book puts forward no such thing and to give the reader an idea of its key features. It’s actually difficult to say that it is his theory, since he covers some very well-trodden ground. …

[…]

… The centrepiece, however, of this segment of Marshall’s conspiracy theory is the rise of the “Sankt Gallen Mafia.” This conspiracy theory is well-known these days, so I won’t outline it here. It suffices to say that Marshall believes that as part of this 150-year plot, a cabal of corrupted cardinals conspired to elect Pope Francis, and succeeded.

I hope the information I have provided is enough to answer Marshall’s question, “What is the conspiracy theory?” For the rest of this series on Infiltration I will look at some of its key ideas, where they come from, and why they should be rejected.

The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and the Freemason Conspiracy

Before looking at this pillar of Marshall’s narrative, I should first clarify that I do not believe that Freemasonry is harmless or that popes in the past were wrong to warn against it. In my opinion, no Catholic should be a Freemason. But it is one thing to recognize Freemasonry as an external threat to the faith and another to imagine that it has penetrated into the highest levels of the Church.

The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita, which I described in my last post, is a document that was allegedly acquired by Pope Gregory XVI in the first half of the nineteenth century. Catholic readers today might be familiar with it from John Vennari’s aforementioned 1999 TAN booklet subtitled A Masonic Blueprint for the Subversion of the Catholic Church, which contains an excerpt of the text and analysis. The Alta Vendita was first published in French in Jacques Cretineau-Joly’s The Roman Church in the Face of Revolution (1859), with the apparent approval of Pope Pius IX. It entered the english-speaking world later, after being published in Monsignor George F. Dillon’s The War of Antichrist with the Church (1885) — a book that received the approval of Pope Leo XIII (though it is clear from the approval that the pope did not read all of the book). We have no idea if the text is authentic. It may be akin to either the documents of the Bavarian Illuminati from the eighteenth century or total fabrications like The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.

[…]

In any case, this is all speculation. What we do know is that the Alta Vendita eventually became part of a lamentable historical discourse. Dillon’s book containing the Alta Vendita was republished in 1950 by the anti-Semitic Britons Publishing Company (publishers of the english translation of The Protocols) and went through a number of editions under the title Grand Orient Freemasonry Unmasked As the Secret Power Behind Communism, with an enthusiastic preface by the notoriously anti-Semitic Catholic writer Fr. Denis Fahey. The connection to anti-Semitism is not readily apparent from the text of the Alta Vendita itself, but appears elsewhere in Msgr. Dillon’s book. Fr. Fahey, in his preface, points to one of Dillon’s footnotes as being exceptionally important. This footnote to page 43 (or 20 in the original edition), in which Dillon references Cretineau-Joly, who had earlier published the Alta Vendita in French, reads as follows:

[…]

That aside, the wild assortment of theories that Alta Vendita document has spawned, many of which form part of the narrative of Infiltration, should make it suspect to anyone. There is simply no proof that the plan described in the Alta Vendita was ever put into action. The document and the plan, if it is genuine, would likely have languished in obscurity if it had not been published by Catholics. But this, ironically, is exactly what makes it so useful for anyone wishing to claim it is linked to later movements like communism or Modernism. Such claims are unfalsifiable.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:50 am

wosbald wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:32 pm
+JMJ+

On American critics, Pope says he doesn’t want a schism but he’s not afraid of it [In-Depth]
Image
Pope Francis waves goodbye as he boards the plane for Rome at the end of his three-nation African tour at Antananarivo's International Airport, Madagascar, Tuesday, Sept.10, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Alexander Joe)

“There always is the schismatic option in the Church,” Francis said. “It’s a choice that the Lord leaves to human freedom. I am not afraid of schism … I pray for them not to happen, as the spiritual health of many people is at stake.”

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE — In response to a question about his recent declaration that he’s honored when “Americans are attacking me,” Pope Francis said Tuesday that while he prays to avoid a schism in the Catholic Church, he’s not afraid of it either, because such rifts have occurred throughout history.

Francis also acknowledged that the U.S. is hardly the only place from which he occasionally draws fire, noting that he also has some critics within the Roman Curia, meaning the administrative bureaucracy of the Vatican itself.

Further, Francis also said that criticism isn’t always destructive, especially when it’s delivered in the open rather than behind one’s back.

[…]

Francis then said that it’s the people of God who ultimately save the Church from schism, because all such movements have one thing in common: “They’re a split from the people, from the faith of the people, from the people of God.”

A schism, Francis said, is an ideology that can sometimes have a point, but which “enters into doctrine and splits it apart.”

Francis’s remarks came as he answered questions from the nearly 70 journalists who traveled with him during his Sept. 4-10 visit to Mozambique, Madagascar and Mauritius.

[…]

The pope swiftly observed that Americans aren’t his only critics.

“Criticism comes not only from the Americans, they’re coming from all over, including the Curia,” he said.

Francis also praised those who criticize him to his face, “having the honesty of saying” their objections out loud. “I don’t like it when criticism is done under the table… when they smile and then stick the knife from behind. This is not loyal.”

Criticism, he insisted, can be a constructive tool. When a person issue a criticism that isn’t fair, the pope said, he or she should be ready for a response and to dialogue about it.

On the other hand, Francis said, a critic who cloaks his or her objections behind a façade is “an arsenic pill, a bit like throwing a stone and hiding your hand. This doesn’t help, and it comes from closed [minded] people who don’t want to hear the answer.”

When it comes to criticizing the pope, he said, “saying what you don’t like, writing an article and asking for a response, this is loyal. This is loving the Church. Instead, voicing a criticism without dialogue [and] without wanting an answer, is not loving the Church … [it’s to want to] change the pope, make a schism.”

Answering the same question, Francis said that those who criticize him for following the Second Vatican Council and for speaking about social issues, “saying [the same] things John Paul II said,” and who label him as “a bit communist,” are injecting ideology into doctrine, “and that’s when schism occurs.”

[…]
I'm trying to figure out how to take the Pope's meaning here (surprise!).

When he says "I am not afraid of schism" is he stating that he doesn't think a schism will occur, or, should a schism occur, even tho he doesn't like it, he's not gonna freak out about it?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:54 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:50 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:32 pm
+JMJ+

On American critics, Pope says he doesn’t want a schism but he’s not afraid of it [In-Depth]
Image
Pope Francis waves goodbye as he boards the plane for Rome at the end of his three-nation African tour at Antananarivo's International Airport, Madagascar, Tuesday, Sept.10, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Alexander Joe)

“There always is the schismatic option in the Church,” Francis said. “It’s a choice that the Lord leaves to human freedom. I am not afraid of schism … I pray for them not to happen, as the spiritual health of many people is at stake.”

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE — In response to a question about his recent declaration that he’s honored when “Americans are attacking me,” Pope Francis said Tuesday that while he prays to avoid a schism in the Catholic Church, he’s not afraid of it either, because such rifts have occurred throughout history.

Francis also acknowledged that the U.S. is hardly the only place from which he occasionally draws fire, noting that he also has some critics within the Roman Curia, meaning the administrative bureaucracy of the Vatican itself.

Further, Francis also said that criticism isn’t always destructive, especially when it’s delivered in the open rather than behind one’s back.

[…]

Francis then said that it’s the people of God who ultimately save the Church from schism, because all such movements have one thing in common: “They’re a split from the people, from the faith of the people, from the people of God.”

A schism, Francis said, is an ideology that can sometimes have a point, but which “enters into doctrine and splits it apart.”

Francis’s remarks came as he answered questions from the nearly 70 journalists who traveled with him during his Sept. 4-10 visit to Mozambique, Madagascar and Mauritius.

[…]

The pope swiftly observed that Americans aren’t his only critics.

“Criticism comes not only from the Americans, they’re coming from all over, including the Curia,” he said.

Francis also praised those who criticize him to his face, “having the honesty of saying” their objections out loud. “I don’t like it when criticism is done under the table… when they smile and then stick the knife from behind. This is not loyal.”

Criticism, he insisted, can be a constructive tool. When a person issue a criticism that isn’t fair, the pope said, he or she should be ready for a response and to dialogue about it.

On the other hand, Francis said, a critic who cloaks his or her objections behind a façade is “an arsenic pill, a bit like throwing a stone and hiding your hand. This doesn’t help, and it comes from closed [minded] people who don’t want to hear the answer.”

When it comes to criticizing the pope, he said, “saying what you don’t like, writing an article and asking for a response, this is loyal. This is loving the Church. Instead, voicing a criticism without dialogue [and] without wanting an answer, is not loving the Church … [it’s to want to] change the pope, make a schism.”

Answering the same question, Francis said that those who criticize him for following the Second Vatican Council and for speaking about social issues, “saying [the same] things John Paul II said,” and who label him as “a bit communist,” are injecting ideology into doctrine, “and that’s when schism occurs.”

[…]
I'm trying to figure out how to take the Pope's meaning here (surprise!).

When he says "I am not afraid of schism" is he stating that he doesn't think a schism will occur, or, should a schism occur, even tho he doesn't like it, he's not gonna freak out about it?
Neither. If you ask me, his minions are all pulling a giant Wosbald--trying to actually CAUSE a schism so they have all the wines and pickles and that, empty pews or no.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:54 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:50 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:32 pm
+JMJ+

On American critics, Pope says he doesn’t want a schism but he’s not afraid of it [In-Depth]
Image
Pope Francis waves goodbye as he boards the plane for Rome at the end of his three-nation African tour at Antananarivo's International Airport, Madagascar, Tuesday, Sept.10, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Alexander Joe)

“There always is the schismatic option in the Church,” Francis said. “It’s a choice that the Lord leaves to human freedom. I am not afraid of schism … I pray for them not to happen, as the spiritual health of many people is at stake.”

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE — In response to a question about his recent declaration that he’s honored when “Americans are attacking me,” Pope Francis said Tuesday that while he prays to avoid a schism in the Catholic Church, he’s not afraid of it either, because such rifts have occurred throughout history.

Francis also acknowledged that the U.S. is hardly the only place from which he occasionally draws fire, noting that he also has some critics within the Roman Curia, meaning the administrative bureaucracy of the Vatican itself.

Further, Francis also said that criticism isn’t always destructive, especially when it’s delivered in the open rather than behind one’s back.

[…]

Francis then said that it’s the people of God who ultimately save the Church from schism, because all such movements have one thing in common: “They’re a split from the people, from the faith of the people, from the people of God.”

A schism, Francis said, is an ideology that can sometimes have a point, but which “enters into doctrine and splits it apart.”

Francis’s remarks came as he answered questions from the nearly 70 journalists who traveled with him during his Sept. 4-10 visit to Mozambique, Madagascar and Mauritius.

[…]

The pope swiftly observed that Americans aren’t his only critics.

“Criticism comes not only from the Americans, they’re coming from all over, including the Curia,” he said.

Francis also praised those who criticize him to his face, “having the honesty of saying” their objections out loud. “I don’t like it when criticism is done under the table… when they smile and then stick the knife from behind. This is not loyal.”

Criticism, he insisted, can be a constructive tool. When a person issue a criticism that isn’t fair, the pope said, he or she should be ready for a response and to dialogue about it.

On the other hand, Francis said, a critic who cloaks his or her objections behind a façade is “an arsenic pill, a bit like throwing a stone and hiding your hand. This doesn’t help, and it comes from closed [minded] people who don’t want to hear the answer.”

When it comes to criticizing the pope, he said, “saying what you don’t like, writing an article and asking for a response, this is loyal. This is loving the Church. Instead, voicing a criticism without dialogue [and] without wanting an answer, is not loving the Church … [it’s to want to] change the pope, make a schism.”

Answering the same question, Francis said that those who criticize him for following the Second Vatican Council and for speaking about social issues, “saying [the same] things John Paul II said,” and who label him as “a bit communist,” are injecting ideology into doctrine, “and that’s when schism occurs.”

[…]
I'm trying to figure out how to take the Pope's meaning here (surprise!).

When he says "I am not afraid of schism" is he stating that he doesn't think a schism will occur, or, should a schism occur, even tho he doesn't like it, he's not gonna freak out about it?
Neither. If you ask me, his minions are all pulling a giant Wosbald--trying to actually CAUSE a schism so they have all the wines and pickles and that, empty pews or no.
There's been a progressive drift among protestants for a long time. I'm currently watching a progressive implosion within many traditional/conservative evangelical denominations. There was a point in time when I desired a hierarchical structure that could pope slap some sense into 'em, or at least make some sort of official move to either stop the bleeding or cut off the limb before the gangrene spread. That said, I'm saddened to see what's happening in the RC. With no one to pope slap the pope and with what looks like a soon to be irreversible agenda being created for the election of the next pope, things aren't looking very good.

I can't imagine what it must feel like on the inside. My encouragement for my Catholic brothers (if you'll accept it!) would be just a continual plea to look to Christ, which I know many of you are, and root your faith in him so that even at the lowest point you won't be led astray.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:12 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:54 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:50 am
wosbald wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:32 pm
+JMJ+

On American critics, Pope says he doesn’t want a schism but he’s not afraid of it [In-Depth]
Image
Pope Francis waves goodbye as he boards the plane for Rome at the end of his three-nation African tour at Antananarivo's International Airport, Madagascar, Tuesday, Sept.10, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Alexander Joe)

“There always is the schismatic option in the Church,” Francis said. “It’s a choice that the Lord leaves to human freedom. I am not afraid of schism … I pray for them not to happen, as the spiritual health of many people is at stake.”

ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE — In response to a question about his recent declaration that he’s honored when “Americans are attacking me,” Pope Francis said Tuesday that while he prays to avoid a schism in the Catholic Church, he’s not afraid of it either, because such rifts have occurred throughout history.

Francis also acknowledged that the U.S. is hardly the only place from which he occasionally draws fire, noting that he also has some critics within the Roman Curia, meaning the administrative bureaucracy of the Vatican itself.

Further, Francis also said that criticism isn’t always destructive, especially when it’s delivered in the open rather than behind one’s back.

[…]

Francis then said that it’s the people of God who ultimately save the Church from schism, because all such movements have one thing in common: “They’re a split from the people, from the faith of the people, from the people of God.”

A schism, Francis said, is an ideology that can sometimes have a point, but which “enters into doctrine and splits it apart.”

Francis’s remarks came as he answered questions from the nearly 70 journalists who traveled with him during his Sept. 4-10 visit to Mozambique, Madagascar and Mauritius.

[…]

The pope swiftly observed that Americans aren’t his only critics.

“Criticism comes not only from the Americans, they’re coming from all over, including the Curia,” he said.

Francis also praised those who criticize him to his face, “having the honesty of saying” their objections out loud. “I don’t like it when criticism is done under the table… when they smile and then stick the knife from behind. This is not loyal.”

Criticism, he insisted, can be a constructive tool. When a person issue a criticism that isn’t fair, the pope said, he or she should be ready for a response and to dialogue about it.

On the other hand, Francis said, a critic who cloaks his or her objections behind a façade is “an arsenic pill, a bit like throwing a stone and hiding your hand. This doesn’t help, and it comes from closed [minded] people who don’t want to hear the answer.”

When it comes to criticizing the pope, he said, “saying what you don’t like, writing an article and asking for a response, this is loyal. This is loving the Church. Instead, voicing a criticism without dialogue [and] without wanting an answer, is not loving the Church … [it’s to want to] change the pope, make a schism.”

Answering the same question, Francis said that those who criticize him for following the Second Vatican Council and for speaking about social issues, “saying [the same] things John Paul II said,” and who label him as “a bit communist,” are injecting ideology into doctrine, “and that’s when schism occurs.”

[…]
I'm trying to figure out how to take the Pope's meaning here (surprise!).

When he says "I am not afraid of schism" is he stating that he doesn't think a schism will occur, or, should a schism occur, even tho he doesn't like it, he's not gonna freak out about it?
Neither. If you ask me, his minions are all pulling a giant Wosbald--trying to actually CAUSE a schism so they have all the wines and pickles and that, empty pews or no.
There's been a progressive drift among protestants for a long time. I'm currently watching a progressive implosion within many traditional/conservative evangelical denominations. There was a point in time when I desired a hierarchical structure that could pope slap some sense into 'em, or at least make some sort of official move to either stop the bleeding or cut off the limb before the gangrene spread. That said, I'm saddened to see what's happening in the RC. With no one to pope slap the pope and with what looks like a soon to be irreversible agenda being created for the election of the next pope, things aren't looking very good.

I can't imagine what it must feel like on the inside. My encouragement for my Catholic brothers (if you'll accept it!) would be just a continual plea to look to Christ, which I know many of you are, and root your faith in him so that even at the lowest point you won't be led astray.
For starters, I don’t dislike the Pope, in fact I like him. I’m simply upset with a few of his methods and how he goes about doing certain things. For example, the issue of the death penalty. It’s not that I even disagree with the gist of what the Pope is saying about it, for the most part we should be moving away from it’s use to protect the dignity of life. However, the church has always held that the death penalty is an option under certain circumstances. That one of the duties of government was to bring justice to evil doers, to protect the good. That hasn’t changed and cannot change. The particular way this Pope is talking about it, just doesn’t mesh well with what other Popes and doctors of the church have said on the issue,IMHO.

Yet Pope Francis takes it as far as he can, just short of speaking ex cathedra, even to point of requesting a change to the Catechism! Which is the next area in which I feel frustrated. The Catechism really shouldn’t be injecting too many current popular opinions, all the while, tried and true doctrines about the Mass are being increasingly neglected to make room for political opinions! Just my .02 cents.

Anyway, as a Catholic I really do believe that the Pope is an essential part of the church. Popes aren’t perfect, in fact some were downright awful. Frances is a good Christian, I disagree with him over some things, but he’s a good pastor. He’s also the man who sits in office of St. Peter who the Holy Spirit chose to feed the lambs, tend the sheep and feed the sheep of Jesus(John 21). St. Peter wasn’t perfect, yet he loves Jesus. Pope Francis definitely loves Jesus and so many around the world.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm
… My encouragement for my Catholic brothers (if you'll accept it!) would be just a continual plea to look to Christ, which I know many of you are, and root your faith in him so that even at the lowest point you won't be led astray.
Would that include not being "led astray" from those Catholic distinctives (e.g. Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism, Purgatory, etc.) against which the Reformation took its stand on the grounds of "being led astray"?

It is your wish — your "continual plea" — that Catholics hold firm in not being led astray from adhering to these things?

==========================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:57 pm

wosbald wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm
… My encouragement for my Catholic brothers (if you'll accept it!) would be just a continual plea to look to Christ, which I know many of you are, and root your faith in him so that even at the lowest point you won't be led astray.
Would that include not being "led astray" from those Catholic distinctives (e.g. Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism, Purgatory, etc.) against which the Reformation took its stand on the grounds of "being led astray"?

It is your wish — your "continual plea" — that Catholics hold firm in not being led astray from adhering to these things?

==========================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================

I reject you, Wosbald, and I reject you in toto. From your days rejecting Popes for not being Catholic enough to your days of rejecting me for not adhering to your beliefs, I turn my back as if you've never existed. May God forgive you for rejecting your fellow man.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:42 am

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:57 pm
I reject you, Wosbald, and I reject you in toto. From your days rejecting Popes for not being Catholic enough to your days of rejecting me for not adhering to your beliefs, I turn my back as if you've never existed. May God forgive you for rejecting your fellow man.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:27 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:42 am
+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:57 pm
I reject you, Wosbald, and I reject you in toto. From your days rejecting Popes for not being Catholic enough to your days of rejecting me for not adhering to your beliefs, I turn my back as if you've never existed. May God forgive you for rejecting your fellow man.
:D
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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