I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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hugodrax
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:47 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:08 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:47 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:47 pm
+JMJ+

Still Worried About Pachamama? Read Laudato Si’ [in-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Mangrove and woodland near the Amazon river, by Cesar Paes Barreto, Wikimedia Commons

I know that papal documents are not easy reading. I also know we all have lots on the go, and it is hard to find the time to sit down and read and think for a couple hours. But this is crucial: if you are Catholic and worried about paganism having infiltrated the Church through the Amazon synod, but have not yet read Pope Francis’s 2015 encyclical Laudato Si’, please read it as soon as possible. Word On Fire has a lovely site devoted to it, at laudatosi.com. It contains a well-formatted PDF version of the text.

[…]

Some people are making much out of a prayer to Pachamama (an Incan fertility goddess, still worshipped by some in the Andes) that was found on a handout used in a church in Verona, for purposes unknown. On Twitter, I pointed out that this prayer was likely taken from a document created for the Amazon synod by the Missio Foundation, which is described on its website as a “pastoral body formed by the Italian Bishops’ Conference to support and promote, in collaboration with other organizations, the missionary dimension of the Church in Italy” (very rough translation). I suggested that the prayer be read in the context of the rest of the document, which provides a survey of the Indigenous cultures of the Amazon and issues affecting the Amazon region and its people, and places these within the framework of Laudato Si’. Providing this additional information does not seem to have helped, as the single page from the document with the prayer is now being shared as further proof of pagan infiltration, not just in that one church in Verona, but also within the Italian Bishops’ Conference.

But context and intent really do matter. Paying attention to context and intent is not a path to relativism; it is, in fact, how you can avoid mistaking your own private judgement for the unalterable truth. Read some sections of the Missio Foundation website (through whatever translation application you can find, if like me you don’t read Italian) in order to understand why they might have included that prayer in one of their documents. Read some of the document itself, which is located here (and the Pachamama prayer is on page 17, for those curious). At least do that, before judging.

After considering the context, which of the two following possibilities do you think is more likely?
  • This Pachamama prayer was included as a means of introducing a demonic paganism into Catholicism, for the purpose of undermining and ultimately destroying the faith.
  • This Pachamama prayer was included as an example of how Indigenous people in the Andes (and by extension, the Amazon) conceive of the natural world as Mother Earth, opening up a missionary path for inculturation in line with Laudato Si’.
I know my answer. If you still think the first possibility is more likely, I’ll say it again: read Laudato Si’.

[…]
Kind and thoughtful and charitable and complete and total horsefeathers. Catholics prostrated themselves and sacrificed to her within the vatican and within consecrated churches. We do not do that before the Virgin Mary.

We do not bow down or sacrifice to two pachamamas. Let he who has eyes see.
Eastern Catholics do.

That’s the trouble with you darn Romans. You’ve been tainted by the Anabaptists and other anti-Catholic denominations too much. Y’all forgetting how to be Catholic!

Hey, someone had to say it. The old Wosbald would. :lol:
You give her coca and burn llama fetuses and food to her honor? Bullshite, bro.

Read the whole sentence, maybe.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:23 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:47 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:08 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:47 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:47 pm
+JMJ+

Still Worried About Pachamama? Read Laudato Si’ [in-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Mangrove and woodland near the Amazon river, by Cesar Paes Barreto, Wikimedia Commons

I know that papal documents are not easy reading. I also know we all have lots on the go, and it is hard to find the time to sit down and read and think for a couple hours. But this is crucial: if you are Catholic and worried about paganism having infiltrated the Church through the Amazon synod, but have not yet read Pope Francis’s 2015 encyclical Laudato Si’, please read it as soon as possible. Word On Fire has a lovely site devoted to it, at laudatosi.com. It contains a well-formatted PDF version of the text.

[…]

Some people are making much out of a prayer to Pachamama (an Incan fertility goddess, still worshipped by some in the Andes) that was found on a handout used in a church in Verona, for purposes unknown. On Twitter, I pointed out that this prayer was likely taken from a document created for the Amazon synod by the Missio Foundation, which is described on its website as a “pastoral body formed by the Italian Bishops’ Conference to support and promote, in collaboration with other organizations, the missionary dimension of the Church in Italy” (very rough translation). I suggested that the prayer be read in the context of the rest of the document, which provides a survey of the Indigenous cultures of the Amazon and issues affecting the Amazon region and its people, and places these within the framework of Laudato Si’. Providing this additional information does not seem to have helped, as the single page from the document with the prayer is now being shared as further proof of pagan infiltration, not just in that one church in Verona, but also within the Italian Bishops’ Conference.

But context and intent really do matter. Paying attention to context and intent is not a path to relativism; it is, in fact, how you can avoid mistaking your own private judgement for the unalterable truth. Read some sections of the Missio Foundation website (through whatever translation application you can find, if like me you don’t read Italian) in order to understand why they might have included that prayer in one of their documents. Read some of the document itself, which is located here (and the Pachamama prayer is on page 17, for those curious). At least do that, before judging.

After considering the context, which of the two following possibilities do you think is more likely?
  • This Pachamama prayer was included as a means of introducing a demonic paganism into Catholicism, for the purpose of undermining and ultimately destroying the faith.
  • This Pachamama prayer was included as an example of how Indigenous people in the Andes (and by extension, the Amazon) conceive of the natural world as Mother Earth, opening up a missionary path for inculturation in line with Laudato Si’.
I know my answer. If you still think the first possibility is more likely, I’ll say it again: read Laudato Si’.

[…]
Kind and thoughtful and charitable and complete and total horsefeathers. Catholics prostrated themselves and sacrificed to her within the vatican and within consecrated churches. We do not do that before the Virgin Mary.

We do not bow down or sacrifice to two pachamamas. Let he who has eyes see.
Eastern Catholics do.

That’s the trouble with you darn Romans. You’ve been tainted by the Anabaptists and other anti-Catholic denominations too much. Y’all forgetting how to be Catholic!

Hey, someone had to say it. The old Wosbald would. :lol:
You give her coca and burn llama fetuses and food to her honor? Bullshite, bro.

Read the whole sentence, maybe.
Oh, I did. I just picked out the parts I liked. :twisted:
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:31 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:23 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:47 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:08 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:47 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:47 pm
+JMJ+

Still Worried About Pachamama? Read Laudato Si’ [in-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Mangrove and woodland near the Amazon river, by Cesar Paes Barreto, Wikimedia Commons

I know that papal documents are not easy reading. I also know we all have lots on the go, and it is hard to find the time to sit down and read and think for a couple hours. But this is crucial: if you are Catholic and worried about paganism having infiltrated the Church through the Amazon synod, but have not yet read Pope Francis’s 2015 encyclical Laudato Si’, please read it as soon as possible. Word On Fire has a lovely site devoted to it, at laudatosi.com. It contains a well-formatted PDF version of the text.

[…]

Some people are making much out of a prayer to Pachamama (an Incan fertility goddess, still worshipped by some in the Andes) that was found on a handout used in a church in Verona, for purposes unknown. On Twitter, I pointed out that this prayer was likely taken from a document created for the Amazon synod by the Missio Foundation, which is described on its website as a “pastoral body formed by the Italian Bishops’ Conference to support and promote, in collaboration with other organizations, the missionary dimension of the Church in Italy” (very rough translation). I suggested that the prayer be read in the context of the rest of the document, which provides a survey of the Indigenous cultures of the Amazon and issues affecting the Amazon region and its people, and places these within the framework of Laudato Si’. Providing this additional information does not seem to have helped, as the single page from the document with the prayer is now being shared as further proof of pagan infiltration, not just in that one church in Verona, but also within the Italian Bishops’ Conference.

But context and intent really do matter. Paying attention to context and intent is not a path to relativism; it is, in fact, how you can avoid mistaking your own private judgement for the unalterable truth. Read some sections of the Missio Foundation website (through whatever translation application you can find, if like me you don’t read Italian) in order to understand why they might have included that prayer in one of their documents. Read some of the document itself, which is located here (and the Pachamama prayer is on page 17, for those curious). At least do that, before judging.

After considering the context, which of the two following possibilities do you think is more likely?
  • This Pachamama prayer was included as a means of introducing a demonic paganism into Catholicism, for the purpose of undermining and ultimately destroying the faith.
  • This Pachamama prayer was included as an example of how Indigenous people in the Andes (and by extension, the Amazon) conceive of the natural world as Mother Earth, opening up a missionary path for inculturation in line with Laudato Si’.
I know my answer. If you still think the first possibility is more likely, I’ll say it again: read Laudato Si’.

[…]
Kind and thoughtful and charitable and complete and total horsefeathers. Catholics prostrated themselves and sacrificed to her within the vatican and within consecrated churches. We do not do that before the Virgin Mary.

We do not bow down or sacrifice to two pachamamas. Let he who has eyes see.
Eastern Catholics do.

That’s the trouble with you darn Romans. You’ve been tainted by the Anabaptists and other anti-Catholic denominations too much. Y’all forgetting how to be Catholic!

Hey, someone had to say it. The old Wosbald would. :lol:
You give her coca and burn llama fetuses and food to her honor? Bullshite, bro.

Read the whole sentence, maybe.
Oh, I did. I just picked out the parts I liked. :twisted:
I shall name you..."Wosbald.".
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Thunktank
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:31 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:31 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:23 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:47 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:08 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:47 pm
wosbald wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:47 pm
+JMJ+

Still Worried About Pachamama? Read Laudato Si’ [in-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Mangrove and woodland near the Amazon river, by Cesar Paes Barreto, Wikimedia Commons

I know that papal documents are not easy reading. I also know we all have lots on the go, and it is hard to find the time to sit down and read and think for a couple hours. But this is crucial: if you are Catholic and worried about paganism having infiltrated the Church through the Amazon synod, but have not yet read Pope Francis’s 2015 encyclical Laudato Si’, please read it as soon as possible. Word On Fire has a lovely site devoted to it, at laudatosi.com. It contains a well-formatted PDF version of the text.

[…]

Some people are making much out of a prayer to Pachamama (an Incan fertility goddess, still worshipped by some in the Andes) that was found on a handout used in a church in Verona, for purposes unknown. On Twitter, I pointed out that this prayer was likely taken from a document created for the Amazon synod by the Missio Foundation, which is described on its website as a “pastoral body formed by the Italian Bishops’ Conference to support and promote, in collaboration with other organizations, the missionary dimension of the Church in Italy” (very rough translation). I suggested that the prayer be read in the context of the rest of the document, which provides a survey of the Indigenous cultures of the Amazon and issues affecting the Amazon region and its people, and places these within the framework of Laudato Si’. Providing this additional information does not seem to have helped, as the single page from the document with the prayer is now being shared as further proof of pagan infiltration, not just in that one church in Verona, but also within the Italian Bishops’ Conference.

But context and intent really do matter. Paying attention to context and intent is not a path to relativism; it is, in fact, how you can avoid mistaking your own private judgement for the unalterable truth. Read some sections of the Missio Foundation website (through whatever translation application you can find, if like me you don’t read Italian) in order to understand why they might have included that prayer in one of their documents. Read some of the document itself, which is located here (and the Pachamama prayer is on page 17, for those curious). At least do that, before judging.

After considering the context, which of the two following possibilities do you think is more likely?
  • This Pachamama prayer was included as a means of introducing a demonic paganism into Catholicism, for the purpose of undermining and ultimately destroying the faith.
  • This Pachamama prayer was included as an example of how Indigenous people in the Andes (and by extension, the Amazon) conceive of the natural world as Mother Earth, opening up a missionary path for inculturation in line with Laudato Si’.
I know my answer. If you still think the first possibility is more likely, I’ll say it again: read Laudato Si’.

[…]
Kind and thoughtful and charitable and complete and total horsefeathers. Catholics prostrated themselves and sacrificed to her within the vatican and within consecrated churches. We do not do that before the Virgin Mary.

We do not bow down or sacrifice to two pachamamas. Let he who has eyes see.
Eastern Catholics do.

That’s the trouble with you darn Romans. You’ve been tainted by the Anabaptists and other anti-Catholic denominations too much. Y’all forgetting how to be Catholic!

Hey, someone had to say it. The old Wosbald would. :lol:
You give her coca and burn llama fetuses and food to her honor? Bullshite, bro.

Read the whole sentence, maybe.
Oh, I did. I just picked out the parts I liked. :twisted:
I shall name you..."Wosbald.".
Are you deleting my posts?
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:59 pm

+JMJ+


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:37 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:59 pm
+JMJ+

The first generation of openly communist priests, perhaps? Or perhaps extraordinarily brave men willing to be martyred. These men need our prayers.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:44 am

+JMJ+

Exposing the Spirits [In-Depth, Analysis]
Image
Bishops walk in procession as they arrive for the concluding Mass of the Synod of Bishops for the Amazon celebrated by Pope Francis at the Vatican Oct. 27, 2019. (CNS photo/Paul Haring)

What the Amazon Synod Decided & What it Revealed

The synod on the Amazon will be remembered as the moment that bishops gathered in Rome asked the pope to ordain married men in order better to stand with the wretched and vulnerable in defense of their lives and land. Whatever Pope Francis does now with that request, it is an important moment for the church, a sign that the pastoral and sacramental demands of the people of God in a particular place need not always be sacrificed on the altar of uniformity. Perhaps ecclesiologists will say it was the moment that the great unresolved issue of Vatican II — whether the local or the universal should take precedence — finally settled on a proper balance.

But the three-week gathering of close to 300 people (182 of whom could vote on the final document) was about much more. Francis came closest to expressing the shift it represented in his end-of-synod address, when he urged reporters not to focus only on the who-won-what in “minor disciplinary matters” but to “take time to look at the diagnoses, which is the dense part, the part where the synod expressed itself best.” The Amazon was being stripped, plundered, burned; its native people, guardians of the ecosystem, were desperate for help, looking to the church to stand with them. To come close, the church had to change, to embrace new thinking — especially on what they called ministerialidad, the question of ministries. Grasping the problem didn’t mean more study but conversion. And conversion began with a shift of perspective — with coming to see the world a bit more as God does.

The really exceptional thing, Fr. Antonio Spadaro, SJ, of La Civiltà Cattolica said, was the “radically pastoral” nature of the synod. Spadaro, who sat through all three weeks of the speeches and small-group meetings, was struck by how the bishops from Amazonia who made up the bulk of the “synod fathers” (those who can vote) shared the same pastoral challenge: how the church could better serve their hurting people, how it could stand with them against what the final document calls “the predatory extractivism that responds to the logic of greed, typical of the dominant technocratic paradigm.” The beauty of the synod was not only that it asked that question, but that, through frank and honest exchanges, in prayer and in dialogue, it got some answers.

The native peoples’ leaders at the synod were key to its pastoral conversion. Their stories of suffering and of the astonishing violence directed against them formed a constant backdrop, as did their expressions of faith in Jesus and in his church. “The politicians don’t listen to us, but you are listening to us” was the message many of them gave the bishops. José Gregorio Díaz Mirabal, a Venezuelan leader from the Curripaco people, said the Catholic Church was “the only institution that is asking the world to wake up to what’s happening, and to save us.” He had asked the pope to “stop the invasions from outside” and to protect his people, because when they stood up for their rights they were imprisoned or even killed. Yesica Patiachi Tayori, a bilingual teacher from the Harakbut people in Peru, stood up to tell the pope: “Brother Francis, you seem alone, but you are not alone. The native peoples of the Amazon are with you!”

The question was how the church could in turn be with them. The ecological question was also the “ministries” question. When almost all the local players in the region — the politicians, the foreign investors, mining companies, cattle ranchers, the prosperity-gospel evangelists — are in thrall to what the pope has called the technocratic paradigm, who but Catholic Amazonians will defend the integral ecology of the Kingdom of God? Yet how, in remote areas where they might be able to celebrate the Eucharist no more than once a year?

To answer that question the synod had to ask what kind of church it would be if it heard the cry of the poor and the cry of the earth as one cry, and responded as Christ would. The way toward an answer was in the final document: a church that is permanently undergoing a fourfold conversion — cultural, pastoral, ecological, and synodal — to become Samaritan, merciful, missionary, “inserted and inculturated,” a servant church, educating and evangelizing, standing with the people in defense of their rights and their land.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:20 am

+JMJ+


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:28 am

wosbald wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:20 am
+JMJ+

Man, what a bitchy tweet leading to an article about a very bitchy man. And a very, very misleading article at that. For churchmen, your heroes seem very self-righteous.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:59 am

+JMJ+

Brazilian president posts video on Twitter comparing bishops to hyenas [In-Depth]
Image
Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro speaks during the Future Investment Initiative forum in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Wednesday, Oct. 30, 2019. (Credit: Amr Nabil/AP)

SÃO PAULO, Brazil — A video posted on President Jair Bolsonaro’s Twitter account on Oct. 28 with attacks on several political parties, civil society organizations, media outlets and the local Catholic bishops’ conference spurred controversy in Brazil.

The ninety-second-long clip shows a lion surrounded by hyenas trying to kill him. Over the head of the hyenas, there are logos and symbols of political parties — including Bolsonaro’s own Social Liberal Party, with which he has been in a dispute over leadership in the past weeks — social movements, newspapers and TV stations, and civil society organizations, such as the Brazilian Bar Association.



Other hyenas carry ideas, such as “impartiality.” One of the most recurrent entities portrayed is the Supreme Court. There’s also a hyena identified with the United Nations.

By the end of the video, one of the last hyenas to appear carries the logomark of the National Conference of the Bishops of Brazil (CNBB, in Portuguese).

The clip ends when another lion appears and dispels the group of hyenas. It’s identified as the “conservative patriot.”

Bolsonaro is heard saying his campaign slogan — Brazil above everything, God above everyone — and a message says “Let’s support the president till the end and not attack him! That is what the opposition does!”

The video was later removed from Bolsonaro’s Twitter account, but it keeps being reproduced by his followers.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:06 pm

+JMJ+

The Amazon synod is about the concept of social sin, not married priests [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Pope Francis attends the final session of the Synod of Bishops for the Amazon at the Vatican Oct. 26. Also pictured are Cardinal Lorenzo Baldisseri, secretary-general of the Synod of Bishops, and Cardinal Claudio Hummes, relator general of the synod. (CNS/Paul Haring)

If you relied on the mainstream media, you would think that the three-week synod on the Amazon last month was mainly focused on the issues of whether or not to ordain married men and to restore the female diaconate. It wasn't.

"If we read the outcome document of the synod, we see the ministerial shifts for the Amazon are in part about servicing people so their human and economic rights are protected," says Eric LeCompte, executive director of JubileeUSA. "We read that as Catholics we must protect indigenous communities and our planet. Ultimately, the synod's message is that we all deserve to live in a world where we have enough, and not too much."

[…]

For the church to help confront the challenges the peoples of the Amazon face, the church must be present, and for it to be present, the church must bring that most distinctive of Catholic practices and beliefs: the sacraments. Indeed, our Catholic sacramental sensibility seems to cohere with the integrated spirituality of the indigenous peoples of the Amazon in ways that are at first somewhat jarring to Western eyes but which, on second glance, appear quite beautiful, and beautiful precisely because they are so different from the hyper-rationalistic, Cartesian sensibilities of us Westerners.

Yet much of the discussion in the U.S. seemed ignorant of the fact that the mesmerizing discussion of ordaining married men and female deacons grew out of this prior discussion of sacramentality in the remote regions of the Amazon. It was not another chapter in our Western culture wars, nor should it be seen as such.

[…]

The vicious and stupid attacks on the indigenous peoples' spirituality came to a head with the tossing of the statues into the Tiber. Last week, on EWTN's "The World Over," Raymond Arroyo and his papal posse were still fretting about the statues being idols and what became clear is that none of them stopped to ask the indigenous people who brought the statues to Rome in the first place what they signified. Cultural myopia meets bad journalism. It seemed clear to me, and clear to the participants in the synod, that the people who brought the statues were themselves Catholics. Why would you accuse such people of idolatry without even talking to them?

We in the myopic West want to reduce everything to gender, or race, or ideology, but that is not what was going on in this synod.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:30 am


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:37 pm

wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:06 pm
+JMJ+

The Amazon synod is about the concept of social sin, not married priests [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Pope Francis attends the final session of the Synod of Bishops for the Amazon at the Vatican Oct. 26. Also pictured are Cardinal Lorenzo Baldisseri, secretary-general of the Synod of Bishops, and Cardinal Claudio Hummes, relator general of the synod. (CNS/Paul Haring)

If you relied on the mainstream media, you would think that the three-week synod on the Amazon last month was mainly focused on the issues of whether or not to ordain married men and to restore the female diaconate. It wasn't.

"If we read the outcome document of the synod, we see the ministerial shifts for the Amazon are in part about servicing people so their human and economic rights are protected," says Eric LeCompte, executive director of JubileeUSA. "We read that as Catholics we must protect indigenous communities and our planet. Ultimately, the synod's message is that we all deserve to live in a world where we have enough, and not too much."

[…]

For the church to help confront the challenges the peoples of the Amazon face, the church must be present, and for it to be present, the church must bring that most distinctive of Catholic practices and beliefs: the sacraments. Indeed, our Catholic sacramental sensibility seems to cohere with the integrated spirituality of the indigenous peoples of the Amazon in ways that are at first somewhat jarring to Western eyes but which, on second glance, appear quite beautiful, and beautiful precisely because they are so different from the hyper-rationalistic, Cartesian sensibilities of us Westerners.

Yet much of the discussion in the U.S. seemed ignorant of the fact that the mesmerizing discussion of ordaining married men and female deacons grew out of this prior discussion of sacramentality in the remote regions of the Amazon. It was not another chapter in our Western culture wars, nor should it be seen as such.

[…]

The vicious and stupid attacks on the indigenous peoples' spirituality came to a head with the tossing of the statues into the Tiber. Last week, on EWTN's "The World Over," Raymond Arroyo and his papal posse were still fretting about the statues being idols and what became clear is that none of them stopped to ask the indigenous people who brought the statues to Rome in the first place what they signified. Cultural myopia meets bad journalism. It seemed clear to me, and clear to the participants in the synod, that the people who brought the statues were themselves Catholics. Why would you accuse such people of idolatry without even talking to them?

We in the myopic West want to reduce everything to gender, or race, or ideology, but that is not what was going on in this synod.

[…]
Which explains why everybody that disagrees is a reactionary racist and most that agree are commie bastards with same sex proclivities.

Fie on every talking head.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:16 pm

+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackback: pg 110


The question behind the synod: How can and should change happen in the church? [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Pope Francis carries his pastoral staff as he arrives in procession to celebrate the concluding Mass of the Synod of Bishops for the Amazon at the Vatican Oct. 27. (CNS/Stefano Spaziani)

On Monday, I discussed how some of the coverage of the synod of the Amazon reflected cultural myopia. Today, I propose to look at the question that stands behind the synod, indeed the question that stands behind so much of this pontificate. It is a simple one: How can and should change happen in the Catholic Church? The question is simple, but not the answer.

First, this conservative idea that all ecclesial doctrine and practice has been fixed from all eternity — and that the Western mode of expressing that doctrine and practice is the only legitimate mode, especially as it was expressed in the 1950s or the pontificate of St. Pope John Paul II — is, to use a technical theological term, hogwash. In the introduction to the Code of Canon Law, promulgated by John Paul II in 1983, we read this:
s is obvious, when the revision of the Code was first announced [by Pope St. John XXIII in 1959], the Council was an event of the future. Moreover, the acts of its magisterium and especially its doctrine on the Church would be decided in the years 1962-1965; however, it is clear to everyone that John XXIII's intuition was very true, and with good reason it must be said that his decision was for the good of the Church in the long term.
The phrase "its doctrine on the Church would be decided" jumps off the page. St. Pope John XXIII had announced his intention to reform canon law, but that could not be done first because there was yet "doctrine … [to] be decided." That is, to use a verb we associate with St. John Henry Newman, doctrine needed to be developed. It is critical for understanding the opposition to Francis to recognize that much of it is based on an understanding of John Paul II that is skewed or worse, indeed a severe lack of knowledge of church history.

It is just as depressing to me, however, to see Catholic liberals viewing change in the church through the same culture war lenses as Catholic conservatives.

The subhead in a New York Times' op-ed by Sara McDougall — "The push to allow married men to serve as priests isn't progress. It's another form of misogyny." — points to the left's problem with synod coverage: The assumption that ecclesial change looks a certain way, and that way is to be akin to modern, Western cultural norms. And it was not just the subhead: McDougall's article contains these sentences:

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:08 pm


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:40 am

+JMJ+



Tuttleview:

Image

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:43 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:40 am
+JMJ+



Tuttleview:

Image
Yeah, dood. Suuuuuuuuure. Pathetic straw grasping.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:06 am

+JMJ+

US Catholic bishops attack British author over Pope book [In-Depth]
Image
Pope Francis during his Wednesday general audience in St Peter's Square at the Vatican this week. Photo: Evandro Inetti/Zuma Press/PA Images

In 'Wounded Shepherd', Ivereigh describes how Pope Francis has faced rebellions and a 'firestorm of criticism'.

The Catholic bishops in the United States have launched an astonishing attack on the top UK Catholic commentator and Papal biographer Austen Ivereigh over his latest book about the Pope.

Ivereigh instantly refuted the bishops and said the bishops were refuting an account of events in the US in 2018 in his new book, Wounded Shepherd, about the papacy of Pope Francis and his "struggle" to convert the Catholic Church, that he never actually gave.

The Tablet reported yesterday how Ivereigh reveals that Church officials in the United States drew up plans to judge bishops on abuse which they hoped Pope Francis and the Vatican would accept as a "fait accompli". Mgr Brian Bransfield, the General Secretary of the US Bishops’ Conference, and Mgr Ronny Jenkins, the Dean of Canon Law at the Catholic University of America, drew up proposals for a code of conduct for bishops and lay-led commissions to judge them.

The proposals were designed as reforms to rebuild the Church's battered credibility. However, when studied in Rome, it was decided they breached Catholic laws and traditions that bishops can be judged only by the Pope. Ivereigh argues that the more troubling feature of the Bransfield-Jennings plan was the attempt to carry out an ecclesiastical power play against the Pope, in what was in effect a quick-fix solution attempting to shore up the US bishops’ reputations.

In a statement on the US bishops' conference website, James Rogers, spokesman for the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, strongly resists Ivereigh's account.

Rogers says Ivereigh’s book perpetuates an "unfortunate" idea that there was resistance to the Pope among the leadership and staff of the US Bishops Conference. He accuses Ivereigh of disparaging the general secretary and a consultant to the committee on canonical affairs "particularly by suggesting they drew up documents in October that were then deliberately excluded from Rome".

[…]

In response to the statement, Ivereigh told The Tablet: "It’s a defensive statement that doesn’t in any way dispute the facts on which my account relies, while seeking to give an alternative interpretation of that account. They begin by claiming that I 'perpetuate a myth that the Holy Father finds resistance among the leadership and staff of the US Bishops Conference'. But I nowhere talk about their resisting the pope, only that the USCCB executive planned for public relations purposes to bounce the Vatican into accepting measures on which the Vatican had not been consulted despite those measures being incompatible with universal church law."

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:21 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:40 am
+JMJ+



Tuttleview:

Image
Now do Santería
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:31 pm

Does Pope Francis, that master of clarity and precision, have a Scalfari problem?

This guy, Scalfari, claimed by seemingly every news outlet as a friend and interviewer of the Pope, keeps saying astounding things that the Pope supposedly told him. Like "there is no hell", that Jesus was "not at all a God", and now, Jesus didn't bodily rise from the dead.


That's a hell of a lot of bad and every time I saw a headline about them and considered the source I thought to myself, this is just a guy trying to make a buck. But this guy keeps coming with the headlines, and what's amazing isn't that he's still doing it, but that the Pope hasn't come out against him.

The last article I linked to gets into it. The Vatican has said, 'well this guy put quotes around things that aren't quite accurate', which leaves one wondering why they said that and not, "This guy is wrong. Don't listen to him. He slanders the Pope. We will not do interviews with him any longer."

Why is the Pope friends with a guy that constantly lies publicly about what he allegedly told him privately? Why the soft gloves?

Look, I'm not saying 'Gee now I think the Pope said that bad stuff!' But, man, the mere fact that this kind of stuff gets treated the way it does, and this isn't the first kind of non-denial denial game he's played...no wonder Roman Catholics are in turmoil. I don't say this to poke anyone in the eye. I really feel for you guys. He's a terrible pastor.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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