I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Post by Rusty » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:15 pm

FredS wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Del wrote:
FredS wrote:Sooo, a couple of weeks ago I was on retreat with the Benedictine Monks at Conception Abbey. One morning when we were eating breakfast Father Albert stopped by our table to visit. One of the ladies in our non-Catholic group commented about the new Pope and all the good press he was getting. I said there will come a time when he does or says something that the press doesn't like and the honeymoon will be over. Father Albert - a normally well spoken man - nodded and said 'You got that right'.
I hope it will be that easy.

I think there is a conspiracy already in place. The secular media failed to paint Benedict as a nasty old Nazi. So this time, they intend to tell Francis and the world that Francis really means what the secular elitists are saying. No matter what Francis really says.
Frankly, I hope that is true but I doubt there is a conspiracy. All this media attention does point to a need or desire of the world for a pope to do something. I am not yet sure what that something is, but I think it is good news for the RCC.
They imagine that the Pope can change Catholic faith, and they hope that he will do so. Basically, they are looking for the Pope to give permissions for all of the favorite sins of this age.
I hope it's not true. Let the romance continue. The man has a great deal of appeal. He's a likeable character and not just a remote figure. This is not about doctrine for me.
You're an odd duck Rusty - as evidenced by the fact that you spend so much time here on CPS. But really, how do you separate the man from the doctrine in this case? As Pope, he represents the doctrine. He's the face of the RCC. If he were not, you wouldn't even know his name. Can you really somehow separate him from it in your mind, or do you just pretend he doesn't stand on the doctrine that is his church? It seems like his 'appeal' is a very thin veil and you chose not to hold it up to the light or look behind it.

EDIT: I sincerely ask these questions, not in a snarky fashion. I suspect that your thoughts on the man mirror the popular media, so knowing more about how you feel may help us understand what they think, and may foretell their continuing coverage.
Look at Bob's last post. I'm not at all familiar with doctrine. You are presuming my pov is like yours. So Popes preceding him seem to be very remote figures and all I gathered is that they represent some technical doctrine. But it is a doctrine that is foreign to me. To a very large degree CPS is responsible for my reading documents from previous Popes etc.

This one is a people person and he doesn't wear the red shoes, doesn't live in the papal apartment, he's articulate & communicates readily with anyone in an ordinary way without dry runs and prepared statements etc. He's real, spontaneous, and yes, one gets the impression that he really cares and has an agenda. It isn't biz as usual out of the Vatican. This one appears ready to transform the role, the Vatican bureaucracy, and anything else that impedes the mission as he sees it. And even to folks that aren't religious at all it is obvious that this man has a mission and he listens too. Was there any Pope in memory that conversed in an ordinary way with everyone?
Last edited by Rusty on Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Del » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:21 pm

UncleBob wrote:I think the new pope became a symbol of hope when it was obvious from the "get-go" that he was more interested in people than pomp. People need that hope even if they misunderstand. You see, he started conversing WITH the world rather than preaching AT it. IMO, just that glimmer of hope was enough to get the world to listen. That is a good thing because he is now in a position to lovingly correct people and have them perceive it as loving instead of "more pompous dogma shoved down our throats".
For 1500 years, the Church was a body that one wanted to be a part of in order to be a part of Christ.

There was a shift after the Reformation, in which the Church became something external -- a shelf full of books of doctrine and tomes of history, an archive of revelation and layers of hierarchy -- something to talk about and look at. And the Church became something that talked at the world.

One of the reforms of Vatican II was to restore the vision of Christ and His Church as a a living person whom we want to love and belong to. Popes John Paul II and Benedict understood this vision. I believe that Pope Francis was chosen because he is the next step in living this vision.

Think about Sts. Peter and Paul, and the way that they were fatherly figures toward the churches they established and led. Imagine visiting Paul as he sewed up tents in Corinth. Pope Francis appears to be the same sort of apostle, to a much larger world.
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Post by tuttle » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:34 pm

Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:I think the new pope became a symbol of hope when it was obvious from the "get-go" that he was more interested in people than pomp. People need that hope even if they misunderstand. You see, he started conversing WITH the world rather than preaching AT it. IMO, just that glimmer of hope was enough to get the world to listen. That is a good thing because he is now in a position to lovingly correct people and have them perceive it as loving instead of "more pompous dogma shoved down our throats".
For 1500 years, the Church was a body that one wanted to be a part of in order to be a part of Christ.

There was a shift after the Reformation, in which the Church became something external -- a shelf full of books of doctrine and tomes of history, an archive of revelation and layers of hierarchy -- something to talk about and look at. And the Church became something that talked at the world.
That is a very interesting take. One that I agree with but had never quite thought of in those terms. It makes me think of a cathedral that is no longer used for worship and becomes a museum. I have reasons I think that this was the case, but I won't broach them in this thread, but I'm curious as to why you think this occurred (since my reasons, I assume, won't be the same as yours)
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Post by AFRS » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:07 pm

My pope is a Dunhill one dot. I like it too.

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Post by Del » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:09 pm

tuttle wrote:
Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:I think the new pope became a symbol of hope when it was obvious from the "get-go" that he was more interested in people than pomp. People need that hope even if they misunderstand. You see, he started conversing WITH the world rather than preaching AT it. IMO, just that glimmer of hope was enough to get the world to listen. That is a good thing because he is now in a position to lovingly correct people and have them perceive it as loving instead of "more pompous dogma shoved down our throats".
For 1500 years, the Church was a body that one wanted to be a part of in order to be a part of Christ.

There was a shift after the Reformation, in which the Church became something external -- a shelf full of books of doctrine and tomes of history, an archive of revelation and layers of hierarchy -- something to talk about and look at. And the Church became something that talked at the world.
That is a very interesting take. One that I agree with but had never quite thought of in those terms. It makes me think of a cathedral that is no longer used for worship and becomes a museum. I have reasons I think that this was the case, but I won't broach them in this thread, but I'm curious as to why you think this occurred (since my reasons, I assume, won't be the same as yours)
This is sort of what I am studying for the test I have to take this weekend.

Ecclesial Theology

The short answer is that the Early Church Fathers and the medieval monks, etc. thought of the Church as a way to holiness. If you want to be part of Christ, then you want to get in with His Church.

The Reformation pushed the work of the Church away from spreading holiness and heavily toward explaining faith -- apologetics became our main work. And over time, faith became something studied more than something lived. And the Church became a subject to study, rather than a life to be lived.

It took us quite a while to recognize this. The work of Vatican II is to restore the ancient Christian life in Christ in His Church. Vatican II calls this work "The Universal Call to Holiness." This is the primary reform of Vatican II.
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Post by FredS » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:17 pm

Rusty wrote:
FredS wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Del wrote:
FredS wrote:Sooo, a couple of weeks ago I was on retreat with the Benedictine Monks at Conception Abbey. One morning when we were eating breakfast Father Albert stopped by our table to visit. One of the ladies in our non-Catholic group commented about the new Pope and all the good press he was getting. I said there will come a time when he does or says something that the press doesn't like and the honeymoon will be over. Father Albert - a normally well spoken man - nodded and said 'You got that right'.
I hope it will be that easy.

I think there is a conspiracy already in place. The secular media failed to paint Benedict as a nasty old Nazi. So this time, they intend to tell Francis and the world that Francis really means what the secular elitists are saying. No matter what Francis really says.
Frankly, I hope that is true but I doubt there is a conspiracy. All this media attention does point to a need or desire of the world for a pope to do something. I am not yet sure what that something is, but I think it is good news for the RCC.
They imagine that the Pope can change Catholic faith, and they hope that he will do so. Basically, they are looking for the Pope to give permissions for all of the favorite sins of this age.
I hope it's not true. Let the romance continue. The man has a great deal of appeal. He's a likeable character and not just a remote figure. This is not about doctrine for me.
You're an odd duck Rusty - as evidenced by the fact that you spend so much time here on CPS. But really, how do you separate the man from the doctrine in this case? As Pope, he represents the doctrine. He's the face of the RCC. If he were not, you wouldn't even know his name. Can you really somehow separate him from it in your mind, or do you just pretend he doesn't stand on the doctrine that is his church? It seems like his 'appeal' is a very thin veil and you chose not to hold it up to the light or look behind it.

EDIT: I sincerely ask these questions, not in a snarky fashion. I suspect that your thoughts on the man mirror the popular media, so knowing more about how you feel may help us understand what they think, and may foretell their continuing coverage.
Look at Bob's last post. I'm not at all familiar with doctrine. You are presuming my pov is like yours. So Popes preceding him seem to be very remote figures and all I gathered is that they represent some technical doctrine. But it is a doctrine that is foreign to me. To a very large degree CPS is responsible for my reading documents from previous Popes etc.

This one is a people person and he doesn't wear the red shoes, doesn't live in the papal apartment, he's articulate & communicates readily with anyone in an ordinary way without dry runs and prepared statements etc. He's real, spontaneous, and yes, one gets the impression that he really cares and has an agenda. It isn't biz as usual out of the Vatican. This one appears ready to transform the role, the Vatican bureaucracy, and anything else that impedes the mission as he sees it. And even to folks that aren't religious at all it is obvious that this man has a mission and he listens too. Was there any Pope in memory that conversed in an ordinary way with everyone?
I think I understand your thoughts here. I suppose non-religious folks saw the previous (recent) Popes the way I used to see the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholics I used to know were mostly CINO's and neither they nor their church made sense to me. Not until I met some Catholics on CPS (Dug, Del, Giant Panda, and even Wosbald) did I put a real face on it. Not until I met these guys, did anyone explain the 'why' behind what they do and say. I still don't agree with them much of the time, but I understand them better now. And it's harder to imagine devil horns on all Catholics now that I actually know and care for some. I suppose Pope Francis is the 'friendly face' of the Church to the world like Del is to me.
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Post by infidel » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:22 pm

Del wrote:The Reformation pushed the work of the Church away from spreading holiness and heavily toward explaining faith -- apologetics became our main work. And over time, faith became something studied more than something lived. And the Church became a subject to study, rather than a life to be lived.
Have you ever heard of Bob Goff?
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Post by tuttle » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:31 pm

Del wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:I think the new pope became a symbol of hope when it was obvious from the "get-go" that he was more interested in people than pomp. People need that hope even if they misunderstand. You see, he started conversing WITH the world rather than preaching AT it. IMO, just that glimmer of hope was enough to get the world to listen. That is a good thing because he is now in a position to lovingly correct people and have them perceive it as loving instead of "more pompous dogma shoved down our throats".
For 1500 years, the Church was a body that one wanted to be a part of in order to be a part of Christ.

There was a shift after the Reformation, in which the Church became something external -- a shelf full of books of doctrine and tomes of history, an archive of revelation and layers of hierarchy -- something to talk about and look at. And the Church became something that talked at the world.
That is a very interesting take. One that I agree with but had never quite thought of in those terms. It makes me think of a cathedral that is no longer used for worship and becomes a museum. I have reasons I think that this was the case, but I won't broach them in this thread, but I'm curious as to why you think this occurred (since my reasons, I assume, won't be the same as yours)
This is sort of what I am studying for the test I have to take this weekend.

Ecclesial Theology

The short answer is that the Early Church Fathers and the medieval monks, etc. thought of the Church as a way to holiness. If you want to be part of Christ, then you want to get in with His Church.

The Reformation pushed the work of the Church away from spreading holiness and heavily toward explaining faith -- apologetics became our main work. And over time, faith became something studied more than something lived. And the Church became a subject to study, rather than a life to be lived.

It took us quite a while to recognize this. The work of Vatican II is to restore the ancient Christian life in Christ in His Church. Vatican II calls this work "The Universal Call to Holiness." This is the primary reform of Vatican II.
Thanks. I appreciate it.
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Post by Del » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:02 pm

infidel wrote:
Del wrote:The Reformation pushed the work of the Church away from spreading holiness and heavily toward explaining faith -- apologetics became our main work. And over time, faith became something studied more than something lived. And the Church became a subject to study, rather than a life to be lived.
Have you ever heard of Bob Goff?
no. Found him on the internet, but it doesn't clue me as to his connection to this thread.
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Post by Rusty » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:03 pm

FredS wrote:
Rusty wrote:
FredS wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Del wrote:
FredS wrote:Sooo, a couple of weeks ago I was on retreat with the Benedictine Monks at Conception Abbey. One morning when we were eating breakfast Father Albert stopped by our table to visit. One of the ladies in our non-Catholic group commented about the new Pope and all the good press he was getting. I said there will come a time when he does or says something that the press doesn't like and the honeymoon will be over. Father Albert - a normally well spoken man - nodded and said 'You got that right'.
I hope it will be that easy.

I think there is a conspiracy already in place. The secular media failed to paint Benedict as a nasty old Nazi. So this time, they intend to tell Francis and the world that Francis really means what the secular elitists are saying. No matter what Francis really says.
Frankly, I hope that is true but I doubt there is a conspiracy. All this media attention does point to a need or desire of the world for a pope to do something. I am not yet sure what that something is, but I think it is good news for the RCC.
They imagine that the Pope can change Catholic faith, and they hope that he will do so. Basically, they are looking for the Pope to give permissions for all of the favorite sins of this age.
I hope it's not true. Let the romance continue. The man has a great deal of appeal. He's a likeable character and not just a remote figure. This is not about doctrine for me.
You're an odd duck Rusty - as evidenced by the fact that you spend so much time here on CPS. But really, how do you separate the man from the doctrine in this case? As Pope, he represents the doctrine. He's the face of the RCC. If he were not, you wouldn't even know his name. Can you really somehow separate him from it in your mind, or do you just pretend he doesn't stand on the doctrine that is his church? It seems like his 'appeal' is a very thin veil and you chose not to hold it up to the light or look behind it.

EDIT: I sincerely ask these questions, not in a snarky fashion. I suspect that your thoughts on the man mirror the popular media, so knowing more about how you feel may help us understand what they think, and may foretell their continuing coverage.
Look at Bob's last post. I'm not at all familiar with doctrine. You are presuming my pov is like yours. So Popes preceding him seem to be very remote figures and all I gathered is that they represent some technical doctrine. But it is a doctrine that is foreign to me. To a very large degree CPS is responsible for my reading documents from previous Popes etc.

This one is a people person and he doesn't wear the red shoes, doesn't live in the papal apartment, he's articulate & communicates readily with anyone in an ordinary way without dry runs and prepared statements etc. He's real, spontaneous, and yes, one gets the impression that he really cares and has an agenda. It isn't biz as usual out of the Vatican. This one appears ready to transform the role, the Vatican bureaucracy, and anything else that impedes the mission as he sees it. And even to folks that aren't religious at all it is obvious that this man has a mission and he listens too. Was there any Pope in memory that conversed in an ordinary way with everyone?
I think I understand your thoughts here. I suppose non-religious folks saw the previous (recent) Popes the way I used to see the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholics I used to know were mostly CINO's and neither they nor their church made sense to me. Not until I met some Catholics on CPS (Dug, Del, Giant Panda, and even Wosbald) did I put a real face on it. Not until I met these guys, did anyone explain the 'why' behind what they do and say. I still don't agree with them much of the time, but I understand them better now. And it's harder to imagine devil horns on all Catholics now that I actually know and care for some. I suppose Pope Francis is the 'friendly face' of the Church to the world like Del is to me.
:lol: Case in point, I had to go look up CINO. This is new to me. I'm also missing any real feelings & probably personal understanding for the divide. I've read the history of the time and I recognize the reformation as a breech in the wall that gave free-thinkers refuge from policing. And policing is exactly what it was. Not study. However, I've known Catholics, Jews, and Protestants all my life and they never made an issue out of religion.

I think it's refreshing to hear/read honest real thoughts in the media from Pope Francis compared to many of the other alternatives that are polished but whose messages are nevertheless mostly manipulative nonsense or irrelevant. And since I don't have a well defined idea about Catholic doctrine (except for Del's morality /natural law rants which, honestly, poisons it). So I'm always interested in the stories about Pope Francis and his views. So let the romance continue. If he starts saying the same things as Del then I'll complain.

The nice thing about the Vatican for my interests is that they're well informed and have thought about modern ideas in science and they have a pov but it's not denial concerning the ideas. They accept the scientific ideas that are rejected here on CPS.
Last edited by Rusty on Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by infidel » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:05 pm

Del wrote:
infidel wrote:
Del wrote:The Reformation pushed the work of the Church away from spreading holiness and heavily toward explaining faith -- apologetics became our main work. And over time, faith became something studied more than something lived. And the Church became a subject to study, rather than a life to be lived.
Have you ever heard of Bob Goff?
no. Found him on the internet, but it doesn't clue me as to his connection to this thread.
Your post made me think of him. Get his book Love Does. I think you'll like it. There's one chapter in particular where he talks about trying to do "Bible study" but finding it rather dull and pointless so he and some friends start a "Bible doing" group. He's all about being Jesus to the world, especially orphans in Uganda. It's the stuff that saints are made of, IMO.

I'm guessing you wont relate to it like I did as your understanding of "living" the faith is probably quite different, but the dude has some great stories to tell. If you aren't inspired by at least some of it then yer dead to me.
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Post by Del » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:10 pm

infidel wrote:
Del wrote:
infidel wrote:
Del wrote:The Reformation pushed the work of the Church away from spreading holiness and heavily toward explaining faith -- apologetics became our main work. And over time, faith became something studied more than something lived. And the Church became a subject to study, rather than a life to be lived.
Have you ever heard of Bob Goff?
no. Found him on the internet, but it doesn't clue me as to his connection to this thread.
Your post made me think of him. Get his book Love Does. I think you'll like it. There's one chapter in particular where he talks about trying to do "Bible study" but finding it rather dull and pointless so he and some friends start a "Bible doing" group. He's all about being Jesus to the world, especially orphans in Uganda. It's the stuff that saints are made of, IMO.

I'm guessing you wont relate to it like I did as your understanding of "living" the faith is probably quite different, but the dude has some great stories to tell. If you aren't inspired by at least some of it then yer dead to me.
Bob Goff sounds like Mother Teresa, and we all love her.

The first thing to know about "ecclesiology" is that Jesus did not establish a Church so that we can study it. Jesus gave us His Church so that we can all become saints.

It sounds like Bob Goff gets it. Good on him!
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Post by UncleBob » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:28 am

Pope Francis' popularity not bringing more into Catholic church, poll shows
The poll found an overwhelming embrace of Francis, who has been trying to steer the Catholic church toward a greater emphasis on compassion for the poor and marginalized. Sixty percent of non-Catholics and 85 percent of Catholics surveyed said they viewed the pontiff favorably - numbers approaching those of Pope John Paul II, whose peak popularity ratings among Catholics hovered just above 90 percent.

However, the poll found no change in the number of people who self-identify as Catholic or in the number sitting in church pews on Sundays. Twenty-two percent of those surveyed described themselves as Catholic, the same figure as in the year preceding Francis' election. Forty percent said they attended Mass at least once a week, unchanged from just before the papal transition.

While the survey found a significant increase in the excitement Catholics are feeling about their faith, there wasn't evidence they are volunteering or attending confession more.

"This study underscores that the pope is not the Catholic church," said Father Thomas Reese, a Vatican expert and senior analyst for the National Catholic Reporter.
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Post by AFRS » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:26 pm

infidel wrote:
Del wrote:The Reformation pushed the work of the Church away from spreading holiness and heavily toward explaining faith -- apologetics became our main work. And over time, faith became something studied more than something lived. And the Church became a subject to study, rather than a life to be lived.
Have you ever heard of Bob Goff?
Live Aid and all that?

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Post by infidel » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:32 pm

AFRS wrote:
infidel wrote:
Del wrote:The Reformation pushed the work of the Church away from spreading holiness and heavily toward explaining faith -- apologetics became our main work. And over time, faith became something studied more than something lived. And the Church became a subject to study, rather than a life to be lived.
Have you ever heard of Bob Goff?
Live Aid and all that?
No, Restore International
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Post by OldWorldSwine » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:15 pm

AFRS wrote:
infidel wrote:
Del wrote:The Reformation pushed the work of the Church away from spreading holiness and heavily toward explaining faith -- apologetics became our main work. And over time, faith became something studied more than something lived. And the Church became a subject to study, rather than a life to be lived.
Have you ever heard of Bob Goff?
Live Aid and all that?
I see what you did there.
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Post by AFRS » Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:12 pm

OldWorldSwine wrote:
AFRS wrote:
infidel wrote:
Del wrote:The Reformation pushed the work of the Church away from spreading holiness and heavily toward explaining faith -- apologetics became our main work. And over time, faith became something studied more than something lived. And the Church became a subject to study, rather than a life to be lived.
Have you ever heard of Bob Goff?
Live Aid and all that?
I see what you did there.
I'm glad someone did. Sometimes I feel like John the Baptist - a voice crying in the wilderness.

You wouldn't believe what I 'read' in the 'name your beard' thread. I was going to put it in the 'What I read' thread but it would probably offend someone's sensibilities. Well not Jocose' but someone would no doubt think less of me for writing what I 'read'....

Oh wait...

Never mind.

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Post by UncleBob » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:23 pm

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." -Mark Twain

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A_Morley
Cardinal Uncle Nacho
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Post by A_Morley » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:41 am

Dammit, I like this Pope too and for entirely different reasons than I had for liking his predecessor.

I followed this story yesterday as well and found the Pope's message compelling and courageous. I'm glad that he not only addressed the real and virulent menace that is organized crime, but also that he spoke of eternal damnation as a reality, something so often lacking in contemporary, mainstream Christianity.

God Bless you, Papa.
His Eminence
Cardinal of CPS

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AFRS
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Post by AFRS » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:58 pm

St. AFRS: Hell awaits everyone unless they change their ways.

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