I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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tuttle
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:00 am

hugodrax wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:55 am
Del wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:41 am
Thunktank wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:05 am
Cleon wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:54 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
I enjoyed a phone conversation with hugodrax, so I won't answer him here.

Our culture has a problem with treating marriage and sex frivolously.... so many of us have made a great mess of our lives before we ever come to know and desire Christ. Francis is right in urging pastors to address this with pastoral sensitivity. So they need guidelines.

However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
You should have stopped while you were ahead.
He should have said something along the lines of avoiding the modern American trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it. America has some problems. They aren’t merely Evangelical problems either, in fact faithful Evangelicals succeed about a well as any sort of Christian. Many Americans have forgotten that marriage is a little trinity made up of a husband, wife and the Holy Spirit. All theology and all love starts from the Holy Trinity. If more Americans believed that we wouldn’t have nearly as much trouble over these issues.
Your are right.... As Christians, we should avoid the American trap of thinking that whatever we choose to do is okay with God. Specifically, we should be wary of Church leaders who tell us what we want to hear.
Indeed. I think we must also be wary of Church leaders who tell us what we don't want to hear.
My protestant bias might be showing here but how about we just be wary of Church leaders who drift from what the Scriptures clearly convey?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:06 am

+JMJ+
Cleon wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:54 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
I enjoyed a phone conversation with hugodrax, so I won't answer him here.

Our culture has a problem with treating marriage and sex frivolously.... so many of us have made a great mess of our lives before we ever come to know and desire Christ. Francis is right in urging pastors to address this with pastoral sensitivity. So they need guidelines.

However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
You should have stopped while you were ahead.
That train left a looong time ago.




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:25 pm

tuttle wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:00 am
hugodrax wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:55 am
Del wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:41 am
Thunktank wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:05 am
Cleon wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:54 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
I enjoyed a phone conversation with hugodrax, so I won't answer him here.

Our culture has a problem with treating marriage and sex frivolously.... so many of us have made a great mess of our lives before we ever come to know and desire Christ. Francis is right in urging pastors to address this with pastoral sensitivity. So they need guidelines.

However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
You should have stopped while you were ahead.
He should have said something along the lines of avoiding the modern American trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it. America has some problems. They aren’t merely Evangelical problems either, in fact faithful Evangelicals succeed about a well as any sort of Christian. Many Americans have forgotten that marriage is a little trinity made up of a husband, wife and the Holy Spirit. All theology and all love starts from the Holy Trinity. If more Americans believed that we wouldn’t have nearly as much trouble over these issues.
Your are right.... As Christians, we should avoid the American trap of thinking that whatever we choose to do is okay with God. Specifically, we should be wary of Church leaders who tell us what we want to hear.
Indeed. I think we must also be wary of Church leaders who tell us what we don't want to hear.
My protestant bias might be showing here but how about we just be wary of Church leaders who drift from what the Scriptures clearly convey?
That is how a good Evangelical ought to say it.
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The collapse of families and Western culture began about 50 years ago, and happened very quickly. Now the Church is looking at the rubble, and wondering how we begin to pick up the pieces. The problem is clear. The solution is the difficult part.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by FredS » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:17 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
We used to joke about going with Catholic girls. That they could do anything they wanted on Saturday as long as they confessed it on Sunday.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Skip » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:28 pm

FredS wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:17 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
We used to joke about going with Catholic girls. That they could do anything they wanted on Saturday as long as they confessed it on Sunday.
Damn, Skippy!
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:01 pm

Skip wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:28 pm
FredS wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:17 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
We used to joke about going with Catholic girls. That they could do anything they wanted on Saturday as long as they confessed it on Sunday.
Damn, Skippy!
We've all heard that joke. It is a joke, of course.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you." - Eph 4

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by FredS » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:03 pm

Del wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:01 pm
Skip wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:28 pm
FredS wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:17 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
We used to joke about going with Catholic girls. That they could do anything they wanted on Saturday as long as they confessed it on Sunday.
Damn, Skippy!
We've all heard that joke. It is a joke, of course.
Of course it's a joke. So is the one about Evangelicals thinking they can do anything they want and then absolving themselves of/for it.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by infidel » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:15 pm

FredS wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:03 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:01 pm
Skip wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:28 pm
FredS wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:17 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
We used to joke about going with Catholic girls. That they could do anything they wanted on Saturday as long as they confessed it on Sunday.
Damn, Skippy!
We've all heard that joke. It is a joke, of course.
Of course it's a joke. So is the one about Evangelicals thinking they can do anything they want and then absolving themselves of/for it.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by FredS » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:06 pm

infidel wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:15 pm
FredS wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:03 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:01 pm
Skip wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:28 pm
FredS wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:17 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:32 pm
However.... we must avoid the Evangelical trap of thinking that we can do as we will and then absolve ourselves for it.
We used to joke about going with Catholic girls. That they could do anything they wanted on Saturday as long as they confessed it on Sunday.
Damn, Skippy!
We've all heard that joke. It is a joke, of course.
Of course it's a joke. So is the one about Evangelicals thinking they can do anything they want and then absolving themselves of/for it.
Image
You could see the set up from the other side of the internet and yet, and yet he stepped right in to it.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:18 pm

+JMJ+

Regarding the Pope and the Amoris controversy, the issue, as I see it, is rather simple. It is summed up in the principle "The Lawgiver is above the law" — or, in Carl Schmitt's words, "Sovereign is he who decides upon the exception."

The Pope — though not above the Moral Law — is, as the Lawgiver, definitely above Canon Law. This "being above" could also looked as a "being below", viz., being the support, source or foundation (the stable Rock) upon which is established — or to which is anchored — Canon Law. This anchoring function is the "significance" (or more accurately, one of the significances) of the Pope. IOW, the Pope instantiates Canon Law.

Now, though the objective norms of Canon Law can never directly controvert the unchangeable Moral Law (which is why authoritative defenders of Amoris insist that Canon Law can never positively approbate adulterous remarriage), this doesn't mean the Pope (or any Catholic for that matter) has a positive obligation to ideologize (or idolize) Canon Law by striving for its utopian obtainment, viz., by striving for its legalistic, pharisaical enforcement. In fact, reason, mercy and the always-deferred status of the eschaton should be enough to reveal the pharisaical folly of such scheming.

By the same token, the Pope is also not able, due to his submission to the Moral Law, to anathematize those who are devoted to the ineradicable prerogatives of Canon Law. Those who may think that the dignity of Canon Law is being excessively de-prioritized are always free to make a case for their opinion. Theirs may be an on-the ground, guerrilla-corrective to any pencil-whipped, localized institutional abuses of Canon Law amnesties which may manifest over time. The Spirit works in the Church as a whole.

The ascendency of a Jesuit Pope signals an extreme anodyne for the extreme crises of the modern age. When the cracks in either facilely naïve or imperiously totalistic narratives begin to show, a Jesuit — with brutally unflinching, Jesuitical honesty and courage — rises to the call and assumes the Petrine office. Deo gratias. Or rather, Ad maiorem Dei gloriam.




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:35 pm

wosbald wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:18 pm
+JMJ+

Regarding the Pope and the Amoris controversy, the issue, as I see it, is rather simple. It is summed up in the principle "The Lawgiver is above the law" — or, in Carl Schmitt's words, "Sovereign is he who decides upon the exception."

The Pope — though not above the Moral Law — is, as the Lawgiver, definitely above Canon Law. This "being above" could also looked as a "being below", viz., being the support, source or foundation (the stable Rock) upon which is established — or to which is anchored — Canon Law. This anchoring function is the "significance" (or more accurately, one of the significances) of the Pope. IOW, the Pope instantiates Canon Law.

Now, though the objective norms of Canon Law can never directly controvert the unchangeable Moral Law (which is why authoritative defenders of Amoris insist that Canon Law can never positively approbate adulterous remarriage), this doesn't mean the Pope (or any Catholic for that matter) has a positive obligation to ideologize (or idolize) Canon Law by striving for its utopian obtainment, viz., by striving for its legalistic, pharisaical enforcement. In fact, reason, mercy and the always-deferred status of the eschaton should be enough to reveal the pharisaical folly of such scheming.

By the same token, the Pope is also not able, due to his submission to the Moral Law, to anathematize those who are devoted to the ineradicable prerogatives of Canon Law. Those who may think that the dignity of Canon Law is being excessively de-prioritized are always free to make a case for their opinion. Theirs may be an on-the ground, guerrilla-corrective to any pencil-whipped, localized institutional abuses of Canon Law amnesties which may manifest over time. The Spirit works in the Church as a whole.

The ascendency of a Jesuit Pope signals an extreme anodyne for the extreme crises of the modern age. When the cracks in either facilely naïve or imperiously totalistic narratives begin to show, a Jesuit — with brutally unflinching, Jesuitical honesty and courage — rises to the call and assumes the Petrine office. Deo gratias. Or rather, Ad maiorem Dei gloriam.
Are you tons of fun at parties? I bet you're tons of fun at parties.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:37 pm

+JMJ+

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:35 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:18 pm
Regarding the Pope and the Amoris controversy, the issue, as I see it, is rather simple. It is summed up in the principle "The Lawgiver is above the law" — or, in Carl Schmitt's words, "Sovereign is he who decides upon the exception."

The Pope — though not above the Moral Law — is, as the Lawgiver, definitely above Canon Law. This "being above" could also looked as a "being below", viz., being the support, source or foundation (the stable Rock) upon which is established — or to which is anchored — Canon Law. This anchoring function is the "significance" (or more accurately, one of the significances) of the Pope. IOW, the Pope instantiates Canon Law.

Now, though the objective norms of Canon Law can never directly controvert the unchangeable Moral Law (which is why authoritative defenders of Amoris insist that Canon Law can never positively approbate adulterous remarriage), this doesn't mean the Pope (or any Catholic for that matter) has a positive obligation to ideologize (or idolize) Canon Law by striving for its utopian obtainment, viz., by striving for its legalistic, pharisaical enforcement. In fact, reason, mercy and the always-deferred status of the eschaton should be enough to reveal the pharisaical folly of such scheming.

By the same token, the Pope is also not able, due to his submission to the Moral Law, to anathematize those who are devoted to the ineradicable prerogatives of Canon Law. Those who may think that the dignity of Canon Law is being excessively de-prioritized are always free to make a case for their opinion. Theirs may be an on-the ground, guerrilla-corrective to any pencil-whipped, localized institutional abuses of Canon Law amnesties which may manifest over time. The Spirit works in the Church as a whole.

The ascendency of a Jesuit Pope signals an extreme anodyne for the extreme crises of the modern age. When the cracks in either facilely naïve or imperiously totalistic narratives begin to show, a Jesuit — with brutally unflinching, Jesuitical honesty and courage — rises to the call and assumes the Petrine office. Deo gratias. Or rather, Ad maiorem Dei gloriam.
Are you tons of fun at parties? I bet you're tons of fun at parties.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:10 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:35 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:18 pm
+JMJ+

Regarding the Pope and the Amoris controversy, the issue, as I see it, is rather simple. It is summed up in the principle "The Lawgiver is above the law" — or, in Carl Schmitt's words, "Sovereign is he who decides upon the exception."

The Pope — though not above the Moral Law — is, as the Lawgiver, definitely above Canon Law. This "being above" could also looked as a "being below", viz., being the support, source or foundation (the stable Rock) upon which is established — or to which is anchored — Canon Law. This anchoring function is the "significance" (or more accurately, one of the significances) of the Pope. IOW, the Pope instantiates Canon Law.

Now, though the objective norms of Canon Law can never directly controvert the unchangeable Moral Law (which is why authoritative defenders of Amoris insist that Canon Law can never positively approbate adulterous remarriage), this doesn't mean the Pope (or any Catholic for that matter) has a positive obligation to ideologize (or idolize) Canon Law by striving for its utopian obtainment, viz., by striving for its legalistic, pharisaical enforcement. In fact, reason, mercy and the always-deferred status of the eschaton should be enough to reveal the pharisaical folly of such scheming.

By the same token, the Pope is also not able, due to his submission to the Moral Law, to anathematize those who are devoted to the ineradicable prerogatives of Canon Law. Those who may think that the dignity of Canon Law is being excessively de-prioritized are always free to make a case for their opinion. Theirs may be an on-the ground, guerrilla-corrective to any pencil-whipped, localized institutional abuses of Canon Law amnesties which may manifest over time. The Spirit works in the Church as a whole.

The ascendency of a Jesuit Pope signals an extreme anodyne for the extreme crises of the modern age. When the cracks in either facilely naïve or imperiously totalistic narratives begin to show, a Jesuit — with brutally unflinching, Jesuitical honesty and courage — rises to the call and assumes the Petrine office. Deo gratias. Or rather, Ad maiorem Dei gloriam.
Are you tons of fun at parties? I bet you're tons of fun at parties.

I would invite him to my party any time. I’ll bet it would be even better with spiked punch too!

Seriously, this is the wosbald I miss.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:01 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:10 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:35 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:18 pm
+JMJ+

Regarding the Pope and the Amoris controversy, the issue, as I see it, is rather simple. It is summed up in the principle "The Lawgiver is above the law" — or, in Carl Schmitt's words, "Sovereign is he who decides upon the exception."

The Pope — though not above the Moral Law — is, as the Lawgiver, definitely above Canon Law. This "being above" could also looked as a "being below", viz., being the support, source or foundation (the stable Rock) upon which is established — or to which is anchored — Canon Law. This anchoring function is the "significance" (or more accurately, one of the significances) of the Pope. IOW, the Pope instantiates Canon Law.

Now, though the objective norms of Canon Law can never directly controvert the unchangeable Moral Law (which is why authoritative defenders of Amoris insist that Canon Law can never positively approbate adulterous remarriage), this doesn't mean the Pope (or any Catholic for that matter) has a positive obligation to ideologize (or idolize) Canon Law by striving for its utopian obtainment, viz., by striving for its legalistic, pharisaical enforcement. In fact, reason, mercy and the always-deferred status of the eschaton should be enough to reveal the pharisaical folly of such scheming.

By the same token, the Pope is also not able, due to his submission to the Moral Law, to anathematize those who are devoted to the ineradicable prerogatives of Canon Law. Those who may think that the dignity of Canon Law is being excessively de-prioritized are always free to make a case for their opinion. Theirs may be an on-the ground, guerrilla-corrective to any pencil-whipped, localized institutional abuses of Canon Law amnesties which may manifest over time. The Spirit works in the Church as a whole.

The ascendency of a Jesuit Pope signals an extreme anodyne for the extreme crises of the modern age. When the cracks in either facilely naïve or imperiously totalistic narratives begin to show, a Jesuit — with brutally unflinching, Jesuitical honesty and courage — rises to the call and assumes the Petrine office. Deo gratias. Or rather, Ad maiorem Dei gloriam.
Are you tons of fun at parties? I bet you're tons of fun at parties.

I would invite him to my party any time. I’ll bet it would be even better with spiked punch too!

Seriously, this is the wosbald I miss.
Spiked punch calls for lampshades, you know.
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:24 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:01 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:10 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:35 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:18 pm
+JMJ+

Regarding the Pope and the Amoris controversy, the issue, as I see it, is rather simple. It is summed up in the principle "The Lawgiver is above the law" — or, in Carl Schmitt's words, "Sovereign is he who decides upon the exception."

The Pope — though not above the Moral Law — is, as the Lawgiver, definitely above Canon Law. This "being above" could also looked as a "being below", viz., being the support, source or foundation (the stable Rock) upon which is established — or to which is anchored — Canon Law. This anchoring function is the "significance" (or more accurately, one of the significances) of the Pope. IOW, the Pope instantiates Canon Law.

Now, though the objective norms of Canon Law can never directly controvert the unchangeable Moral Law (which is why authoritative defenders of Amoris insist that Canon Law can never positively approbate adulterous remarriage), this doesn't mean the Pope (or any Catholic for that matter) has a positive obligation to ideologize (or idolize) Canon Law by striving for its utopian obtainment, viz., by striving for its legalistic, pharisaical enforcement. In fact, reason, mercy and the always-deferred status of the eschaton should be enough to reveal the pharisaical folly of such scheming.

By the same token, the Pope is also not able, due to his submission to the Moral Law, to anathematize those who are devoted to the ineradicable prerogatives of Canon Law. Those who may think that the dignity of Canon Law is being excessively de-prioritized are always free to make a case for their opinion. Theirs may be an on-the ground, guerrilla-corrective to any pencil-whipped, localized institutional abuses of Canon Law amnesties which may manifest over time. The Spirit works in the Church as a whole.

The ascendency of a Jesuit Pope signals an extreme anodyne for the extreme crises of the modern age. When the cracks in either facilely naïve or imperiously totalistic narratives begin to show, a Jesuit — with brutally unflinching, Jesuitical honesty and courage — rises to the call and assumes the Petrine office. Deo gratias. Or rather, Ad maiorem Dei gloriam.
Are you tons of fun at parties? I bet you're tons of fun at parties.

I would invite him to my party any time. I’ll bet it would be even better with spiked punch too!

Seriously, this is the wosbald I miss.
Spiked punch calls for lampshades, you know.
Oh Jeez, I walked right into that one.
Image

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Skip » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:59 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:24 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:01 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:10 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:35 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:18 pm
+JMJ+

Regarding the Pope and the Amoris controversy, the issue, as I see it, is rather simple. It is summed up in the principle "The Lawgiver is above the law" — or, in Carl Schmitt's words, "Sovereign is he who decides upon the exception."

The Pope — though not above the Moral Law — is, as the Lawgiver, definitely above Canon Law. This "being above" could also looked as a "being below", viz., being the support, source or foundation (the stable Rock) upon which is established — or to which is anchored — Canon Law. This anchoring function is the "significance" (or more accurately, one of the significances) of the Pope. IOW, the Pope instantiates Canon Law.

Now, though the objective norms of Canon Law can never directly controvert the unchangeable Moral Law (which is why authoritative defenders of Amoris insist that Canon Law can never positively approbate adulterous remarriage), this doesn't mean the Pope (or any Catholic for that matter) has a positive obligation to ideologize (or idolize) Canon Law by striving for its utopian obtainment, viz., by striving for its legalistic, pharisaical enforcement. In fact, reason, mercy and the always-deferred status of the eschaton should be enough to reveal the pharisaical folly of such scheming.

By the same token, the Pope is also not able, due to his submission to the Moral Law, to anathematize those who are devoted to the ineradicable prerogatives of Canon Law. Those who may think that the dignity of Canon Law is being excessively de-prioritized are always free to make a case for their opinion. Theirs may be an on-the ground, guerrilla-corrective to any pencil-whipped, localized institutional abuses of Canon Law amnesties which may manifest over time. The Spirit works in the Church as a whole.

The ascendency of a Jesuit Pope signals an extreme anodyne for the extreme crises of the modern age. When the cracks in either facilely naïve or imperiously totalistic narratives begin to show, a Jesuit — with brutally unflinching, Jesuitical honesty and courage — rises to the call and assumes the Petrine office. Deo gratias. Or rather, Ad maiorem Dei gloriam.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:57 am

+JMJ+

Pope Francis: “The blogs say I’m a heretic? I know who writes them, and I don’t read them”
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AP/EAST NEWS

Francis to Jesuits in Chile and Peru: Don't be religious who live as gossipy bachelors

Here we publish a preview of some extracts of the conversations that Pope Francis had with the Jesuits in Chile on January 16 and in Peru on January 19, during his apostolic visit to the two countries. The conversations were transcribed by Fr. Antonio Spadaro, to be published in the next edition of La Civiltà Cattolica, which comes out this Saturday.

[…]

What resistance have you found, and how have you faced it?

In the face of difficulty, I never say it is ‘resistance,’ because that would mean renouncing discernment, something which, on the contrary, I want to do. It’s easy to say that there is resistance, and not realize that, in that conflict, there can also be a particle of truth. This helps me also to relativize a lot of things which, at first glance, seem like resistance, but which in reality are a reaction that is born of a misunderstanding… When, on the contrary, I realize that there is real resistance, of course, I don’t like it. Some people tell me that it’s normal for there to be resistance when someone wants to make changes. The famous ‘it’s always been done this way’ reigns everywhere; it’s a huge temptation that we’ve all experienced. The resistance after Vatican II, still present, means this: relativize, water down the Council.

I’m even more bothered when someone enlists in a campaign of resistance. And unfortunately, I see that too. I can’t deny that there is some resistance. I see the resistance and I recognize it. There is doctrinal resistance. For my mental health, I don’t read the Internet sites of this so-called ‘resistance.’ I know who they are, I know the groups, but I don’t read them, simply for my mental health. If there is something very serious, they inform me about it, so I’ll know. And it’s unpleasant, but one needs to move ahead.

When I perceive resistance, I try to dialog, when dialog is possible; but some resistance comes from people who believe that they possess the true doctrine, and they accuse you of being heretical. When I don’t find spiritual goodness in these people, due to what they say or write, I simply pray for them. I experience displeasure, but I don’t ruminate on this feeling, for the sake of my mental health.

In which reforms can we support you better?

I believe that one of the things that the Church needs most today, and this is very clear in the perspectives and pastoral goals of Amoris Laetitia, is discernment. We are used to ‘you can or you can’t.’ I too, in my formation, was taught the way of thinking ‘up to here you can, up to here you cannot.’ I don’t know if you remember that Colombian Jesuit who came to teach us moral theology at the Collegio Massimo; when it came time to talk about the sixth commandment, someone dared to ask the question, ‘Can engaged couples kiss?’ If they could kiss! Do you understand? And he said, ‘Yes, they can!’ There’s no problem! All they need to do, though, is put a handkerchief between them.’ This is a forma mentis (mentality) of doing theology in general. A forma mentis based on limits. And we are carrying the burden of the consequences.

[…]




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:19 pm

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by infidel » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:51 pm

Inadvertently emboldening the cause of naïve Evolutionism since 2016.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:08 pm

infidel wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:51 pm
Old news.
And therefore...?
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Many of the points here, taken to their logical conclusions, don't hold up to logic; they're simply Godded-up ways of saying "I don't like that." - Skip

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