I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by FredS » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:00 pm

Pope Francis says he was misquoted about his denial of hell. Say's "Anyone who's been to Newark can attest to a litteral hell."
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Bloodhound » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:36 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:00 pm
Pope Francis says he was misquoted about his denial of hell. Say's "Anyone who's been to Newark can attest to a litteral hell."
Well played my friend!
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:58 pm

Bloodhound wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:36 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:00 pm
Pope Francis says he was misquoted about his denial of hell. Say's "Anyone who's been to Newark can attest to a litteral hell."
Well played my friend!
Really?!!?

I clicked that link, and there was no actual misspelling of the word literal.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by FredS » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:09 pm

Del wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:58 pm
Bloodhound wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:36 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:00 pm
Pope Francis says he was misquoted about his denial of hell. Say's "Anyone who's been to Newark can attest to a litteral hell."
Well played my friend!
Really?!!?
I clicked that link, and there was no actual misspelling of the word literal.
I noticed the misspelling after Bloodhound quoted it so I figured 'what's the point?"

But I did recently see an article where an atheist journalist mis-quoted the Pope and had to retract part of an article he'd written. Seems this guy has been fortunate enough to have a few private audiences with the Pope, and he constantly misquotes their conversations afterwards. Seems he neither records the conversations on tape or paper, but instead relies on his memory to recount the Popes intentions, if not his actual words. Of course being an atheist doesn't color his thoughts about the Popes intentions. Does it?
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:18 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:09 pm
Del wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:58 pm
Bloodhound wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:36 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:00 pm
Pope Francis says he was misquoted about his denial of hell. Say's "Anyone who's been to Newark can attest to a litteral hell."
Well played my friend!
Really?!!?
I clicked that link, and there was no actual misspelling of the word literal.
I noticed the misspelling after Bloodhound quoted it so I figured 'what's the point?"

But I did recently see an article where an atheist journalist mis-quote the Pope and had to retract part of an article he'd written. Seems this guy has been fortunate enough to have a few private audiences with the Pope, and he constantly misquotes their conversations afterwords. Seems he neither records the conversations on tape or paper, but instead relies on his memory to recount the Popes intentions, if not his actual words. Of course being an atheist doesn't color his thoughts about the Popes intentions. Does it?
Perhaps you saw this:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... not-exist/
The reason for the confusion is in large part due to the fact that Scalfari doesn’t take notes during interviews. He doesn’t record them either. He just chats with his subjects, then writes the articles from memory. His 93-year-old memory.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by FredS » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:49 pm

Yes, the report I read was about the same incident, though I think it was from a different source.

If I were the Pope* I'd stop granting interviews to the forgetful 93 year old atheist.

*If I were the Pope
Tell you'd what I'd do
I'd throw away the cars and the bars and the war
Make sweet love to you
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:32 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:49 pm
Yes, the report I read was about the same incident, though I think it was from a different source.

If I were the Pope* I'd stop granting interviews to the forgetful 93 year old atheist.

*If I were the Pope
Tell you'd what I'd do
I'd throw away the cars and the bars and the war
Make sweet love to you
Dude.... That's a Christmas hymn.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:44 pm

+JMJ+

In Holy Week 2018, Francis was the great Catholic iconoclast
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Pope Francis delivers the Urbi et Orbi (to the city and to the world) blessing at the end of the Easter Sunday Mass in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican, Sunday, April 1, 2018. (Credit: AP Photo/Andrew Medichini.)

ROME — Although a mini-tempest about Pope Francis’s conversation with an Italian journalist and what he did, or didn’t, say about Hell likely will be remembered as the biggest news cycle of Holy Week 2018, the pontiff said plenty of other things over the last week too, and it’s worth sorting through and pondering what to make of it all.

In total, Francis delivered six cornerstone addresses:
  • A homily for the Holy Thursday Chrism Mass
  • A homily for the Lord’s Supper Mass
  • Prayers for the Good Friday Via Crucis procession
  • A homily for the Easter Vigil
  • A homily for the Easter Morning Mass
  • The Easter Day Urbi et Orbi address
That, by the way, doesn’t count the homily at the Good Friday service, because it’s delivered by the Preacher of the Papal Household, not the pontiff himself. In all, that’s more than 6,000 words of papal verbiage in a 96-hour span, and, as always with Francis, it featured a little bit of everything.

In sum, what we got was a clear indication that Pope Francis is not backing off his cautious opening to Communion for divorced and civilly remarried Catholics expressed in Amoris Laetitia, and, beyond that, a fairly comprehensive statement of his broad vision and agenda.

[…]

However, if we’re looking for the one speech that seemed to best capture the spirit and overall vision of Francis’s papacy — perhaps the speech that best reflects what kind of “reform” Francis is trying to deliver — it came in Holy Week’s opening act, the traditional Chrism Mass commemorating the institution of the priesthood by Christ.

It was largely a meditation on the importance of closeness, as both a spiritual and pastoral quality and also the hallmark of God’s relationship with humanity. Two paragraphs in particular seemed almost like hermeneutical keys to what Francis has been trying to engineer in Catholicism for the last five years:

“Closeness is also the key to truth; not just the key to mercy, but the key to truth. Can distances really be shortened where truth is concerned? Yes, they can. Because truth is not only the definition of situations and things from a certain distance, by abstract and logical reasoning. It is more than that. Truth is also fidelity. It makes you name people with their real name, as the Lord names them, before categorizing them or defining ‘their situation.’ There is a distasteful habit, is there not, of following a ‘culture of the adjective’: this is so, this is such and such, this is like… No! This is a child of God. Then come the virtues or defects, but [first] the faithful truth of the person and not the adjective regarded as the substance.

“We must be careful not to fall into the temptation of making idols of certain abstract truths. They can be comfortable idols, always within easy reach; they offer a certain prestige and power and are difficult to discern. Because the ‘truth-idol’ imitates, it dresses itself up in the words of the Gospel, but it does not let those words touch the heart. Much worse, it distances ordinary people from the healing closeness of the word and of the sacraments of Jesus.”


What do we take away from that? To begin with the blindingly obvious, Francis is not contemplating any revision of the position taken in a now-famous footnote to Amoris Laetitia.

More broadly, what we get is a full-blown, oracular statement of Francis’s underlying aim: He’s determined to smash the “truth-idols” he believes have taken hold of both the Church and the wider world, fueling a judgmental “culture of the adjective” that always leads with someone’s failures rather their underlying “faithful truth.”

This idol-smashing drive accounts not only for Amoris, but so much else about this papacy — from the kinds of bishops Francis is appointing, to why he keeps talking to an Italian journalist with a history of playing fast and loose with his words, to his sidelining of Vatican departments which, over the years, have seen their roles precisely as defending “abstract truths,” such as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

[…]




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Skip » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:55 pm

Now we return you to your irregularly scheduled WCNN.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:18 pm

+JMJ+

Foes of ‘Amoris’ insist at Rome summit: ‘We cannot be ignored!’
Image
Participants in an April 7, 2018, summit of opposition to Pope Francis's document "Amoris Laetitia." (Credit: Crux/John Allen.)

ROME - At a Rome summit on Saturday of the most ardent opposition figures to Amoris Laetitia, Pope Francis’s controversial 2016 document on the family, lay participants issued a final declaration broadly rejecting the teaching that divorced and civilly remarried Catholics may receive Communion and imploring “the pope and the bishops to confirm us in the faith.”

Their final conclusions, issued Saturday towards the end of the summit, which attracted several hundred people to a Rome hotel near the Vatican, were the following:
  1. “We witness and profess in accord with the authentic confession of the faith that a consummated marriage can be dissolved only by death.”
  2. “Christians who unite with another person if their spouse is still living commit a great sin.”
  3. “We are convinced that this is a norm that applies always and without exception.”
  4. “We are convinced that no subjective judgment of conscience can render an evil action good.”
  5. “Forgiveness is based on a desire to change one’s attitude.”
  6. “The divorced and remarried who live together may not receive Eucharistic Communion.”
[…]

The name of the event was “Catholic Church, Where are You Going?” It invoked a quote from Caffarra, “Only a blind man could deny there’s great confusion in the Church today.”

One of four cardinals who asked the pope for clarification two years ago strongly hinted that the time for waiting for an answer is over.

“As history demonstrates, it’s possible that a Roman pontiff exercising his fullness of power can fall into heresy or fail in his first duty of safeguarding and preserving the unity of faith and the discipline of the Church,” said American Cardinal Raymond Burke.

Burke was one of four cardinals who submitted five critical questions to Francis after Amoris appeared, technically known as dubia. One of the other four, Brandmüller, was also on hand, while two others have died - German Cardinal Joachim Meisner and Italian Cardinal Carlo Caffarra.

[…]

Burke insisted on the right to stand up to an erring pope.

“Since the pope can’t be subject to a judicial process, the situation has to be addressed and remedied based on natural law, the gospels, and canonical tradition, and that’s a two-step process,” Burke said, speaking to a crowd of several hundred people gathered at Rome’s Church Village Hotel, located about two miles from the Vatican.

“First, one corrects the presumed error or abandonment of duty directly to the Roman Pontiff,” Burke said. “If he doesn’t respond, then one proceeds to public correction.”

At that point, a contingent in the crowd leapt to their feet and began shouting, “People of God, stand up! We are the ones who have to act!”

“As a matter of duty, the pope can be disobeyed,” Burke said. “There’s an abundant body of literature on the theme.”

[…]

Burke said that at the synod some bishops argued that the pope’s power would allow him to take the step he did in Amoris Laetitia, but he scoffed at the logic.

“As if that power would permit the pope to make a decision in open contrast to Matthew 19,” he said, referring to Christ’s prohibition of divorced in the gospels, “and the constant teaching of the Church in fidelity to those words.”

“Any act of a pope, given that he’s a human being, that’s heretical or sinful, in itself is null,” he said.

[…]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TlsBFZv_zc




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:31 pm

+JMJ+

In ‘Gaudete et Exsultate,’ Pope answers ‘Amoris’ critics: Don’t ‘reduce, constrict’ Gospel
Image
Pope Francis leaves St. Peter's Square at the Vatican after a Mass on the Sunday of Divine Mercy, Sunday, April 8, 2018. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia.)

Although a new document from Pope Francis on holiness reflects permanent themes in his thinking and in Catholic spirituality, in context, it also offers indirect commentary on two recent burning questions: First, what does the pope really believe about Hell, the afterlife, and the spiritual realm? Second, how would he answer critics such as the several hundred who gathered in Rome on Saturday to contest his 2016 document Amoris Laetitia?

With the release of his new apostolic exhortation Gaudete et Exsultate on Monday, and almost without trying, the pontiff addressed both points.
  • While Francis doesn’t deal with Hell, he makes clear he obviously believes in a Devil and takes his malign influence seriously, saying the Devil is not “a myth, a representation, a symbol, a figure of speech or an idea.”
  • Francis is also well aware of his critics over the merciful line expressed in Amoris, in a moment in which the document just marked the second anniversary of its release on Sunday, and he takes a dim view of what’s driving them.
[…]

Francis’s attitude on Hell became a hot topic after an alleged “interview” with 93-year-old Italian journalist Eugenio Scalfari briefly created a frenzy that came to be known as “Hellgate.” While the new document doesn’t shed any light on that front, it does confirm that for this pope, the Devil, anyway, is decidedly real.

The final chapter of the new document, “Spiritual combat, vigilance and discernment,” is a call to be both alert against the temptation of the Devil, who the pope says is “more than a myth,” but also to trust in the “powerful weapons that the Lord has given us” to face this “spiritual combat”: Faith-filled prayer, meditation on the word of God, the celebration of Mass, Eucharistic adoration, sacramental Reconciliation, works of charity, community life, missionary outreach.

[…]

“[A] harmful ideological error is found in those who find suspect the social engagement of others, seeing it as superficial, worldly, secular, materialist, communist or populist,” Francis wrote. Those who fall under this category, he said, at times reduce this social engagement to “one particular ethical issue or cause that they themselves defend.”

To exemplify, he speaks about the defense of the unborn, which “needs to be clear, firm and passionate, for at stake is the dignity of a human life, which is always sacred and demands love for each person.”

Yet, he argues, the lives of those yet to be born cannot be the only ones defended: “Equally sacred, however, are the lives of the poor, those already born, the destitute, the abandoned and the underprivileged, the vulnerable infirm and elderly exposed to covert euthanasia, the victims of human trafficking, new forms of slavery, and every form of rejection.”

An ideal of holiness that ignores justice amidst a world in which some live only “for the latest consumer goods,” while others live their entire lives in abject poverty “cannot be upheld.”

In a move that is bound to enrage some of the pope’s most conservative critics, he doubled down on this issue, saying that the situation of immigrants is often presented as a lesser issue, with some Catholics considering it “a secondary issue compared to the ‘grave’ bioethical questions.”

Quoting Matthew’s passage, Francis argued: “Can we not realize that this is exactly what Jesus demands of us, when he tells us that in welcoming the stranger we welcome him?”

[…]




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:06 pm

+JMJ+

Pope’s new document has ‘very, very troubling’ parts: EWTN panel
Image
Raymond Arroyo and Fr. Gerald Murray

WASHINGTON, D.C., April 16, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – The just-released apostolic exhortation on holiness, Gaudete et Exsultate (“Rejoice and Be Glad”), is stirring up controversy and seems to take aim at some of the Pope’s critics in the Church.

EWTN’s Raymond Arroyo and the “papal posse” broke down the “troubling” parts of the document on The World Over on April 12.

“Because of the divisions which have gotten worse under this papacy,” said Faith & Reason Institute President Robert Royal, when Pope Francis “puts out a document like this which is largely good, we can’t read it without suspicions, or ... controversy.”

[…]

“I enjoyed the parts which dealt with the supernatural life,” said Fr. Gerald Murray, a canon lawyer, “but I got to the section where the Pope deals with what he calls ‘neopelagianism’ and I just said to myself, ‘Wait a minute. What’s going on here?’”

“Then there’s another section on ‘neo-gnosticism,’” said Murray, adding, “These are, in my opinion, very serious problems in this document because he seems to be defending the controversial parts of Amoris Laetitia by lashing out at people who don’t agree with him. And I find that very, very troubling.”

[…]

Can truth be an idol?

Arroyo noted that the Pope expressed similar concerns recently during the Vatican Chrism Mass, warning Catholics not to make idols out of truths.

“Truth is not an idol,” clarified Fr. Murray, saying he was “stunned” by the Pope’s assertion. The contrary is true: “Truth is the remedy to idolatry.”

[…]

Does the Pope see immigration and abortion as equivalent evils?

Arroyo suggested that Gaudete et Exsultate seems to equate the pro-life cause with caring for migrants, putting them on the same moral plane. He wondered, “Is this a return to the ‘seamless garment’?”

Arroyo suggested that Gaudete et Exsultate seems to equate the pro-life cause with caring for migrants, putting them on the same moral plane. He wondered, “Is this a return to the ‘seamless garment’?”

Royal pointed out the most serious flaw in the seamless garment philosophy: “That argument has been used for years by the Democratic Party to basically do nothing.”

[…]



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCqdv4JKsxQ




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:34 am

+JMJ+

Raymond Arroyo: Derision over Truth [In-Depth]
Image
Image (from left): Fr. Gerald Murray, Robert Royal, Raymond Arroyo
Why are we listening to young people, who really haven’t experienced a lot of life, or God, frankly?

— Raymond Arroyo
Note: This is the second post in a series on longtime EWTN host Raymond Arroyo. Last week’s first part, “Policy over Fidelity,” explored how Arroyo uses his program, The World Over Live, to promote a political agenda that is often at odds with Church teaching. Part Two, “Posse of Deceit,” explores how he has used the program to undermine Pope Francis and his work to sow doubt and dissent among the faithful.

The second part of this series will take a somewhat different approach than part one. In the first article, I highlighted several of the more unsavory, politically-minded guests he invited to his program. Part two will focus on one recent (and representative) segment from The World Over Live, in which he misinterprets the intentions and mission of this papacy and how he and the “Papal Posse” had no qualms about portraying a pre-synodal gathering of young people at the Vatican in a negative light. This type of thing is a frequent occurrence on the show, and this example demonstrates the degree to which falsehoods and unfair representations permeate the discussion on his program.

Since early in the papacy, Arroyo and his Papal Posse (author Robert Royal and Archdiocese of New York priest Fr. Gerald Murray) have been providing coverage and “analysis” of the words and actions of Pope Francis — coverage that is often incomplete, and analysis that is almost always critical and condescending toward the Holy Father. Frequently, guests on the program are known for their extreme opposition to the mission and vision of Pope Francis, whether they’ve written books critical of his papacy (Phil Lawler, Ross Douthat), or they’ve signed document or petitions suggesting that the apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia contains doctrinal errors or heresy (Joseph Shaw, Cardinal Raymond Burke).

Many Catholics have taken note, and it appears that Arroyo has been feeling a little heat lately. On the April 12 episode of The World Over Live, he let loose on his critics and defended his coverage of the papacy, stating,
“I get this every week. Don’t shoot the messenger. I’m not the pope. All we do is cover this. I do think people sometimes — look, we all love the Holy Father, I think, the viewers of this program do. It is up to us to respect him enough to take the words and evaluate them in a context of the times and of the moment, and if we look the other way for portions and pretend we’re not seeing it, we’re letting that audience down and we’re not being, to my mind, good Catholics.”

—Raymond Arroyo
April 12, 2018 broadcast of
The World Over Live
Earlier that day, Twitter user Patrick Neve (@catholicpat) posted an 8-second clip from the March 29 episode showing Arroyo questioning why the opinions of young people matter. It was asked at the beginning of a discussion with his “papal posse” about the final document of the pre-synod meeting of youth in Rome. Since the tweet was posted, a number of social media users, as well as blog posts and articles have popped up to chastise Arroyo and to defend the valuable voices of the youth in the Church.

Lest anyone suggest that the quote is taken out of context, here is the entire episode from March 29 (video cued to the beginning of coverage of the pre-synodal meeting). It is clear that the posse’s discussion of the document was agenda-driven from beginning to end.

[…]




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:38 am

+JMJ+

Vatican Rejects German Bishops’ Intercommunion Proposal
Image
Cardinal Reinhard Marx of Munich and Freising and Cardinal Rainer Woelki of Cologne in Rome, Italy on March 14, 2013. (Paul Badde/EWTN)

Sources confirm that, with the Holy Father’s approval, the Vatican’s head of doctrine has thrown out the bishops’ pastoral guide allowing Holy Communion for some Protestant spouses, but the Pope wishes the rejection letter to remain secret.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with the approval of Pope Francis, has written a letter to German bishops rejecting their proposal to allow some Protestant spouses to receive Holy Communion, but the Pope does not wish the letter to be made public, the Register has learned.

Sources in the Vatican and Germany say that Archbishop Luis Ladaria, the current prefect of the CDF, wrote the letter and that it was given papal approval.

“It’s a rejection of the pastoral plan,” said a high level source in the German Church, speaking on condition of anonymity, adding that there are “no differences” between Archbishop Ladaria and his predecessor, Cardinal Gerhard Müller, on the matter.

But two senior sources have also confirmed that the Pope wants the letter to remain secret for reasons unknown.

The Austrian Catholic website Kath.net revealed Wednesday that the Vatican had issued its response, which came after seven German bishops, led by Cardinal Rainer Woelki of Cologne, wrote to the CDF last month to say they believed the proposal contradicted Catholic doctrine, undermined Church unity and exceeded the competence of the bishops’ conference.

[…]
———————————————————————————————————————————-

UPDATE (Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:22 am)

Vatican reportedly rejects German bishops’ proposal for intercommunion of spouses
Image
St. Peter's Basilica. (Credit: Alexey Gotovskiy/CNA.)

{…]

It is not clear whether the Vatican has asked the bishops’ conference to modify the contents of the draft guidelines, whether they have suspended the development of a draft while the matter is considered further, or whether it has been entirely rejected.

[…]




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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:31 am

+JMJ+

Pope calls German cardinal to Rome to discuss eucharistic sharing
Image
German bishops proceed into Trier Cathedral in this 2013 file photo. (CNS/Thomas Frey, EPA)

Vatican City — Pope Francis has asked the president of the German bishops' conference to come to Rome to discuss pastoral guidelines for possibly allowing some non-Catholics married to Catholics to receive the Eucharist, the conference spokesman said.

Reports that "the document was rejected in the Vatican by the Holy Father or by the dicasteries are false," said Matthias Kopp, the conference spokesman.

For one thing, Kopp said April 19, the guidelines still have not been finalized and, therefore, they have not been reviewed by the Vatican. Members of the German bishops' conference were asked to submit proposed amendments to the draft document by Easter; the heads of the conference's doctrinal and ecumenical committees and the president of the conference were to formulate a final draft and present it to the conference's permanent council April 23.

[…]




"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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