I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:13 am

wosbald wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:45 am
+JMJ+
Del wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:28 am
[…]

… But guys like [fill in the blank] seem to view the Catholic Church more as a useful tool toward advancing their politics …
Image
This is sad.

I care about politics.... Christians have a duty to be involved in our democracy. We have to "render unto Caesar" that which is due.... in a democracy, that means active participation.

But you seem to have become one who views the whole world -- faith and all -- through the lens of politics. Is that why all of your recent posts in Catholic threads have been about political issues?

Catholicism is mostly about rendering to God that which is due to Him. That means prayer, worship, sacraments; relationships with Jesus, Mary, and the Saints; evangelization and participation in ministries.

Some of us are called to protect the poor and innocent -- unborn children and illegal aliens are the political victims of this age. Others are called to evangelize natives in Papua - New Guinea or the poorest of the poor in Calcutta or Chicago.

The danger is an idolatry of making the ministry is higher than the faith. We start looking for salvation in political parties. Do not put your faith in princes
- One party claims to care about saving children's lives -- but can't seem to stop giving money to the abortion lobby.
- One party claims to care about immigrants -- but won't do anything to give legal protection to children of immigrants.

Just keep in mind that one party hates Christians, and Catholics in particular.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:15 pm

+JMJ+

Some cry ‘scandal’ to cover their own failings, pope says at Mass
Image
In this file photo, Pope Francis celebrates Mass in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae at the Vatican. (Credit: CNS photo/L'Osservatore Romano)

ROME — While God’s holy church is made up of sinners, it also has its share of hypocrites who love to cry “scandal” to point out the failings of others and make themselves appear pure, Pope Francis said at morning Mass.

“The devil doesn’t have anything to do with repentant sinners because they look to God and say, ‘Lord, I’m a sinner. Help me,’ and the devil is impotent,” the pope said Sept. 20 during Mass in the Domus Sanctae Marthae.

“But with the hypocrites he is strong,” Francis said. “He is strong, and he uses them to destroy, to destroy people, destroy society, destroy the church.”

The devil’s “battle horse is hypocrisy because he is a liar. He shows off as a powerful, handsome prince, but inside he’s an assassin,” the pope said, according to the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano.

[…]

They [the Pharisees] were “doctors of the law” who were always watching Jesus “to see if they could find him in error” or could “set a trap for him,” the pope said. “They had an attitude hypocrites often use: They were scandalized. ‘Oh look, what scandal! You cannot live like that. We have lost all values. Now everyone has a right to come to church, even those who are divorced, everyone. But where are we?’”

Theirs is “the hypocrisy of the ‘righteous,’ the ‘pure,’ those who believe they are saved through their own merits,” the pope said. But “Jesus calls the hypocrites ‘whitewashed tombs.’ They look like beautiful cemeteries, but inside they are putrid and rotten.”

Pope Francis ended his homily by requesting, “Let us ask Jesus always to protect our church, which is a holy mother but full of sinning children like us. And may he protect each one of us with his mercy and forgiveness.”
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:28 pm

+JMJ+

Benedict XVI hits back at critics in leaked letters
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Pope emeritus Benedict XVI is seen with Pope Francis in this 2015 file photo. (Credit: Maurizio Brambatti/EPA via CNS)

ROME — In a series of letters leaked to the press, retired Pope Benedict XVI chastised a German cardinal for criticizing his decision to resign from the papacy, saying an understandable pain as a result of the move has turned into “anger” against him, and has devalued his papacy.

The letters, obtained by German newspaper Bild, were addressed to Cardinal Walter Brandmüller, 89, one of four “dubia” cardinals who challenged Pope Francis’s teaching on marriage and family following the publication of his 2016 apostolic exhortation, Amoris Laetitia.

President emeritus of the Pontifical Committee for Historical Sciences, Brandmüller was a firm supporter of Benedict XVI during his papacy, however, he has long been vocal in his criticism of Benedict’s decision to resign in 2013.

In response to Brandmüller’s complaints in his letters to Benedict that the decision to step down has thrown the Church into crisis, causing serious damage, Benedict issued a sharp rebuke, telling the cardinal that “I can very well understand the deep-seated pain that the end of my papacy has inflicted on you and many others.”

“However, for some people and — it seems to me — also for you, the pain has turned into an anger that no longer merely concerns my resignation, but increasingly also my person and my papacy as a whole,” Benedict said.

“By this, a papacy itself is now being devalued and melted into the sorrow about the situation in which the Church currently finds itself,” he said, adding “if you know a better way (than resignation) and therefore think that you can judge the one chosen by me, please tell me,” he added.

[…]

While papal supporters might see Benedict’s letters as a rebuke of Francis’s critics, many of whom felt betrayed by the German pontiff’s resignation, those who have been critical of Francis might take Benedict’s phrase “melted into sorrow” about the current state of the Church as a criticism of the current pontificate.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by durangopipe » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:48 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:13 am
Just keep in mind that one party hates Christians, and Catholics in particular.
Those damned Atheist Libertarians!
Right?

Certainly not the party of House Speaker Paul Ryan (Catholic) or minority leader Nancy Pelosi (Catholic).
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:52 am

+JMJ+

NOTE: Translation by Google Translate and slightly augmented by Wos


Abp. Víctor M. Fernández: "The Pope always maintained that it is not prudent to defend oneself from people who seek protagonism [i.e. vainglory]"
Image
The Archbishop Víctor Manuel Fernández

(José M. Vidal) — He is a friend of the Pope and one of his closest men. Víctor Manuel Fernández, archbishop of La Plata, has just been with Francisco in Rome and sees him "strong and eager to work". He explains that [former Cardinal] Bergoglio always thought that "it is not advisable to defend oneself from those who seek protagonism [i.e. vainglory]" and that it does not fall within his modus operandi "to take disciplinary measures" against Carlo M. Viganó. In the end, the former Nuncio "is someone in need of a minute of false glory and not resigned to having the low profile of a retiree.

What did you feel when the 'document' of former Nuncio Viganó was released?

They always taught me to put the People of God first. In this case, I see a consecrated person who gives priority to his well-known ideological interests — above the good of the people — who end up confused and hopeless. The Pope — finishing the appropriate [investigative] process — applied the maximum sanctions to the abuser Cardinal [McCarrick], and that is the only thing that we know with certainty.

Are we going back to the intrigues of a Vatileaks III or have they wanted to use the plague of abuse to undermine papal authority?

This nuncio — one with a very conservative mentality and one of the well known opponents of Francisco's agenda — should remember that the most serious cases of abuse were by founders of very conservative congregations (no need to name them, but I remember at least 5 very serious cases in Latin America). I think that this gentleman seeks a double objective: to discredit Francisco with a subject that has gotten a lot of press (never has the world press cited so much from conservative catholic blogs as in this case). And second, to divert the spotlight from himself, trying to pretend that he has no responsibility for the slowness in cases of abuse in the country where he was Nuncio.

Is this attack on the Pope out-of-the-blue, or is the former Nuncio [Viganó] a simple pawn in the hands of rigorist interests?

It is one more case which shows that some people in these circles forget certain parts of the law of God and fall into the same relativism or situational morals they criticize. They think that their supposed defense of the traditional doctrine authorizes them to bear false witness and lie. For them, slander and defamation are licit. But they would only have to reread the Bible in order to be reminded just how serious their actions are.

Image

Have the political and religious rigorists, especially from the USA, joined this attack on the Pope?

We do not know. But I do not think there are many who reach this level of cynicism. I prefer to think well of people. Rather, I think that this is a case of someone in need of his fifteen minutes of fame and not resigned to having the low profile of a retiree — with the help of some supposedly Catholic blogs and a press that could not perceive that it was a very biased source — managed to appear, in a matter of days, like a martyr of truth. When I can see the damage he did in simple hearts, he may have much to suffer.

[…]

Is it about discrediting the Pope, to nip his reforms in the bud?

Actually, I believe that the Pope is prudent and avoids being overzealous in the reforms, precisely because he tries to contain everyone and avoid ruptures. The opposite of the attitude of this person, as he does not blanch at fomenting dissension. The problem is that the press enables it. More than simply impeding the reforms, I think that the movement seeks to destroy.

Do the reactions to the case show a huge fracture in the North American episcopate?

It is shocking that there are bishops who do not try to distance themselves from someone who is acting so irrationally. It shows that there are ideological obsessions more powerful than sanity.

Image

Why is not Pope Francis defending himself or will he do it in due time?

He has always maintained that it is not convenient to defend oneself from people who seek protagonism [i.e. vainglory], because it gives them what they seek feeds their megalomania more. I suppose that, in this case, he applies that rule.

[…]

Image

[…]

You who often speak with him, how does the Pope feel right now? Does he have the strength and desire to continue pressing for his vision?

I see the Pope strong, wanting to work. Surely one could see the current struggles as a test to weaken one's enthusiasm and one's love for people, and he will strive to prevent that from happening.

What can the faithful do to help the Pope in these moments and to feel our support, child-like love and our prayers?

I think it is healthy to publicly show signs of affection and of solidarity and, at the same time, help to neutralize those threads of hatred and revenge that are woven within the Church.

Image
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:41 pm

Abp.Fernandez does a good job of sidestepping doctrinal issues as well as the chastisement of young priests and parishioners who have appealed in vain to their bishops with valid concerns over the scandals.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:44 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:48 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:13 am
Just keep in mind that one party hates Christians, and Catholics in particular.
Certainly not the party of House Speaker Paul Ryan (Catholic) or minority leader Nancy Pelosi (catholic).
Fixed it for you
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Cleon » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:34 pm

durangopipe wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:48 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:13 am
Just keep in mind that one party hates Christians, and Catholics in particular.
Those damned Atheist Libertarians!
Right?

Certainly not the party of House Speaker Paul Ryan (Catholic) or minority leader Nancy Pelosi (Catholic).
He means REAL® Catholics.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:41 pm

I would just like to say that I’m Catholic despite what I see on CPS. That is all.

Good grief.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:25 am

+JMJ+

Vatican signs potentially historic deal with China on bishops
Image
In this Aug. 31, 2018, photo, students gather outside the entrance to the No. 4 High School with banners, some of which reads "System Self Confidence, Cultural Self Confidence." (Credit: AP Photo/Ng Han Guan)

The Vatican announced on Saturday that a deal has been reached with China over the appointment of bishops.

[This story will be updated throughout the day.]

ROME – Capping months of speculation, the Vatican announced Saturday that it has signed a “provisional agreement” with the People’s Republic of China about the appointment of bishops, officially recognizing eight prelates named by the Chinese government.

In a Sept. 22 communique, the Vatican announced that the deal had been signed during a meeting held earlier that morning in Beijing between Monsignor Antoine Camilleri, Undersecretary for the Holy See’s Relations with States, and Wang Chao, Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs of the People’s Republic of China, and their respective delegations.

As part of the accord, Pope Francis has decided to officially recognize eight bishops named by the Chinese government’s Patriotic Association without the permission of the pope, meaning that until now, technically they had been excommunicated.

Since the 1949 Communist takeover of China, Catholicism in the sountry has been split between an “official” church that cooperates with the government and an “undergound” church which resists its control.

According to a Vatican statement, the pope’s wish is that with the decision to recognize the bishops, “a new process may begin that will allow the wounds of the past to be overcome, leading to the full communion of all Chinese Catholics.”

The Vatican also established the Chinese Diocese of Chengde, near Beijing, with the Church of the Good Shepherd as its cathedral.

Calling the agreement “the fruit of a gradual and reciprocal rapprochement,” the Vatican said the accord has been agreed upon as the result of a “long process of negotiation” and “foresees the possibility of periodic reviews of its application.”

The deal, according to the Vatican statement, is meant to create conditions for greater collaboration between the Catholic Church and mainland China at a bilateral level.

Vatican spokesman Greg Burke, traveling with Pope Francis in Lithuania, said the deal “is not the end of a process, it’s the beginning.”

“This has been about dialogue, patient listening on both sides even when people come from very different standpoints,” Burke said. “The objective of the accord is not political but pastoral, allowing the faithful to have bishops who are in communion with Rome but at the same time recognized by Chinese authorities”.

[…]
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:29 am

+JMJ+

Three quick take-aways on the Vatican’s deal with China
Image
In this Aug. 31, 2018, photo, a propaganda poster showing Chinese President Xi Jinping with ethnic minority children and the slogan which reads "Party Secretary Xi Jinping and Xinjiang's multi ethnic residents united heart to heart" decorates the side of a building in Kashgar, western China's Xinjiang region. (Credit: AP Photo/Ng Han Guan)

ROME — In thinking about the deal between the Vatican and China on the appointment of bishops announced on Saturday, the central point to be clear on is that there’s not really much to think about.

It says something about public discussion in the early 21st century that the deal has already been described as both an “incredible betrayal” and a “positive fact for Chinese Catholics” before anyone actually knows what it contains.

[…]

However, even in the absence of the details, there are three points that can be made.

First, however you slice it, this is a diplomatic win for Pope Francis and his team. Whatever one thinks of the merits of making a deal — and there are strong voices who think it’s ill-advised, including members of the staunchly anti-Communist underground church in China — it’s been abundantly clear that it’s a top priority for Francis, and detractors thought he might never get it.

China’s ruling class, or so the theory went, were basically content with the status quo, so they were stringing things out because they didn’t want to be the ones to formally shut down the dialogue. According to this view, however, they never had any real intention of signing on the dotted line.

Obviously, they’ve now signed something, whatever it turns out to be. Given how much diplomatic credibility the Vatican has invested in getting to this point, the mere fact of having arrived has to go in the win column.

Second, it’s also another case in which Francis often gets credit, or blame, for steps taken as unique to him but which actually are in clear continuity with his predecessors St. Pope John Paul II and Pope emeritus Benedict XVI.

Both John Paul and Benedict XVI were eager for progress in diplomatic relations with China, and willing to do pretty much whatever it took to get there. It was under John Paul, not Francis, that the cardinal secretary of state announced that the Vatican would close its embassy in Taiwan “not tomorrow, but today” if the invite from Beijing ever came.

The Vatican’s basic diplomatic and geopolitical calculation is that in order to function as a voice of conscience on the global stage it has to engage China, because it’s increasingly a superpower with massive worldwide influence. Moreover, it also sees the long-running split in China between an “official” and an “underground” church as injurious to the Church’s health and has long aspired to heal the split.

To accomplish those two objectives — engaging China and unifying the country’s Catholics — the Vatican has long felt that almost any deal was better than no deal at all, a stance that hardly originated under the present administration.

Third, it’s not at all clear that today’s announcement necessarily means that formal diplomatic ties between Rome and Beijing are right around the corner, or that a new day is about to dawn in terms of religious freedom for the roughly 13 million or so Catholics in China.

In the short term, actually, things could get worse before they get better, given the notorious “one step forward, one step back” policy of the Chinese government on many fronts. Moreover, if tensions within the party over its religious policy intensify as a result of this deal, hardliners may be seeking opportunities to reassert control by tightening restrictions on the ground.

In other words, probably the only bit of commentary heard so far on Saturday’s announcement that seems unquestionably objective came from Vatican spokesman Greg Burke, who said the deal is “not the end of a process, but the beginning.”
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:16 am

wosbald wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:25 am
+JMJ+

Vatican signs potentially historic deal with China on bishops
Image
In this Aug. 31, 2018, photo, students gather outside the entrance to the No. 4 High School with banners, some of which reads "System Self Confidence, Cultural Self Confidence." (Credit: AP Photo/Ng Han Guan)

The Vatican announced on Saturday that a deal has been reached with China over the appointment of bishops.

[This story will be updated throughout the day.]

ROME – Capping months of speculation, the Vatican announced Saturday that it has signed a “provisional agreement” with the People’s Republic of China about the appointment of bishops, officially recognizing eight prelates named by the Chinese government.

In a Sept. 22 communique, the Vatican announced that the deal had been signed during a meeting held earlier that morning in Beijing between Monsignor Antoine Camilleri, Undersecretary for the Holy See’s Relations with States, and Wang Chao, Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs of the People’s Republic of China, and their respective delegations.

As part of the accord, Pope Francis has decided to officially recognize eight bishops named by the Chinese government’s Patriotic Association without the permission of the pope, meaning that until now, technically they had been excommunicated.

Since the 1949 Communist takeover of China, Catholicism in the sountry has been split between an “official” church that cooperates with the government and an “undergound” church which resists its control.

According to a Vatican statement, the pope’s wish is that with the decision to recognize the bishops, “a new process may begin that will allow the wounds of the past to be overcome, leading to the full communion of all Chinese Catholics.”

The Vatican also established the Chinese Diocese of Chengde, near Beijing, with the Church of the Good Shepherd as its cathedral.

Calling the agreement “the fruit of a gradual and reciprocal rapprochement,” the Vatican said the accord has been agreed upon as the result of a “long process of negotiation” and “foresees the possibility of periodic reviews of its application.”

The deal, according to the Vatican statement, is meant to create conditions for greater collaboration between the Catholic Church and mainland China at a bilateral level.

Vatican spokesman Greg Burke, traveling with Pope Francis in Lithuania, said the deal “is not the end of a process, it’s the beginning.”

“This has been about dialogue, patient listening on both sides even when people come from very different standpoints,” Burke said. “The objective of the accord is not political but pastoral, allowing the faithful to have bishops who are in communion with Rome but at the same time recognized by Chinese authorities”.

[…]
This is the first I'm hearing of this, I'm not an expert but I feel like I know a little more than the average Joe regarding the Chinese State church and the underground church in China. If I'm reading the report above (and the report following) correctly, it seems whatever the details are, the pope has essentially legitimized the state selected bishops. The State runs a neutered church. The pope legitimizing these bishops is a rather big deal.

There is a reason the underground church is a thing. The reason there is a rift between them is because the State caused the rift by Big Brothering the faith. I don't see how the pope legitimizing the State-placed bishops begins any sort of unity between the two, unless perhaps somehow the pope was able to wheel and deal with the commies about allowing the bishops to practice their faith and lead their flock in ways that the State has heretofore not allowed. I highly doubt the Chinese would be agreeable with such terms. I'm curious to see how the underground church reacts. I assume this puts underground Catholics in a real bind.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:36 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:16 am

This is the first I'm hearing of this, I'm not an expert but I feel like I know a little more than the average Joe regarding the Chinese State church and the underground church in China. If I'm reading the report above (and the report following) correctly, it seems whatever the details are, the pope has essentially legitimized the state selected bishops. The State runs a neutered church. The pope legitimizing these bishops is a rather big deal.

There is a reason the underground church is a thing. The reason there is a rift between them is because the State caused the rift by Big Brothering the faith. I don't see how the pope legitimizing the State-placed bishops begins any sort of unity between the two, unless perhaps somehow the pope was able to wheel and deal with the commies about allowing the bishops to practice their faith and lead their flock in ways that the State has heretofore not allowed. I highly doubt the Chinese would be agreeable with such terms. I'm curious to see how the underground church reacts. I assume this puts underground Catholics in a real bind.
I s'pose it may well put underground Protestants in a bind. That would be an unfortunate effect, but not an overriding consideration.

Catholics, OTOH, will have to make do and neither schism nor demonize the leaders of The Party.

Perhaps it all just goes to show that there is no generalized "underground church" which is unequivocally united against "the baddies".
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:44 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:36 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:16 am

This is the first I'm hearing of this, I'm not an expert but I feel like I know a little more than the average Joe regarding the Chinese State church and the underground church in China. If I'm reading the report above (and the report following) correctly, it seems whatever the details are, the pope has essentially legitimized the state selected bishops. The State runs a neutered church. The pope legitimizing these bishops is a rather big deal.

There is a reason the underground church is a thing. The reason there is a rift between them is because the State caused the rift by Big Brothering the faith. I don't see how the pope legitimizing the State-placed bishops begins any sort of unity between the two, unless perhaps somehow the pope was able to wheel and deal with the commies about allowing the bishops to practice their faith and lead their flock in ways that the State has heretofore not allowed. I highly doubt the Chinese would be agreeable with such terms. I'm curious to see how the underground church reacts. I assume this puts underground Catholics in a real bind.
I s'pose it may well put underground Protestants in a bind. That would be an unfortunate effect, but not an overriding consideration.

Catholics, OTOH, will have to make do and neither schism nor demonize the leaders of The Party.

Perhaps it all just goes to show that there is no generalized "underground church" which is unequivocally united against "the baddies".
How would it put Protestants in a bind? They're gonna keep on keepin on I presume. I specifically had the Catholic underground in mind, and I didn't necessarily think of the Catholics and Protestants as One Underground Church.

But when you say Catholics will have to make do, what do you mean by that that I don't mean? Those underground Catholics who oppose the State run church are now faced with the fact that the Pope just joined them up with the very people they believe are compromising the faith. That's the bind I'm thinking.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by UncleBob » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:21 am

Pope warns against upsurge in racism and intolerance
Pope Francis warned that attitudes that many thought were a thing of the past – such as racism – are on the rise again and can lead to intolerant and discriminating behavior and policies and he urged politicians to avoid exploiting fear against those seeking refuge and better lives in our countries.

He was addressing participants at a just-ended Rome-based conference "Xenophobia, Racism and Populist Nationalism in the Context of Global Migration" at the Vatican on Thursday.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:38 am

The above two posts drive home the intersection of faith and politics in the world for me. Oh, on some level we all say that politics and faith shouldn't mix and if one mixes the two, one simply gets politics, but they intersect and they must (on a side note, that's why being a moderator here stinks on ice).

The Pope is not just a leader of a religion, he is also a governmental leader on the world stage with diplomatic ties throughout the world.

That's what makes this rapprochement with China so interesting: by legitimizing these bishops, the Pope has really achieved a Talleyrand/Kissenger-style masterstroke that ties the hands of everyone involved but himself. Recognizing these Bishops not only creates legitimate Catholics out of their flocks, it binds the Bishops to the Vatican and forces them to carefully walk the line between their allegiances to the Pope and to the Chinese government. Essentially, they must now be leaders within the Church rather than governmental agents, with, of course, nothing to gain but immense face to lose if they dont perform well.

And he removed the thorn in everyone's side about the Church in hiding. The one needling both sides to get what it wants. If it is about religious freedom, they should be delighted and can step forward and joyously fill the roles they are called to fulfil. If it's about the downfall of communism and they refuse to follow the Pope's lead and schism, well, problem solved. They are out of communion with the Church. Fascinating. Either way, the Chinese have just allowed some outside control.

In my mind, the diplomacy in China and the statement about racism and migration cannot easily be reconciled. He might have just struck an immense blow against communism in China by legitimizing the pontifical authority over Chinese bishops on the one hand while weakening his influence in Europe by so repeatedly asking to open the floodgates of immigration at the same time. How can increasing the number of Catholics in China be good and decreasing the percentage of Catholics in Europe be a good at the same time?

EDIT

And tuttle, I'm thinking it might put the Protestants in a bit of a bind because the RC just recognized the legitimacy of the government while the Protestant Underground is maintaining its supreme authority. Essentially, the Pope worked with the government where the Pastors are refusing to...sort of an interesting situation.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:47 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:38 am
The above two posts drive home the intersection of faith and politics in the world for me. Oh, on some level we all say that politics and faith shouldn't mix and if one mixes the two, one simply gets politics, but they intersect and they must (on a side note, that's why being a moderator here stinks on ice).

The Pope is not just a leader of a religion, he is also a governmental leader on the world stage with diplomatic ties throughout the world.

That's what makes this rapprochement with China so interesting: by legitimizing these bishops, the Pope has really achieved a Talleyrand/Kissenger-style masterstroke that ties the hands of everyone involved but himself. Recognizing these Bishops not only creates legitimate Catholics out of their flocks, it binds the Bishops to the Vatican and forces them to carefully walk the line between their allegiances to the Pope and to the Chinese government. Essentially, they must now be leaders within the Church rather than governmental agents, with, of course, nothing to gain but immense face to lose if they dont perform well.

And he removed the thorn in everyone's side about the Church in hiding. The one needling both sides to get what it wants. If it is about religious freedom, they should be delighted and can step forward and joyously fill the roles they are called to fulfil. If it's about the downfall of communism and they refuse to follow the Pope's lead and schism, well, problem solved. They are out of communion with the Church. Fascinating. Either way, the Chinese have just allowed some outside control.

In my mind, the diplomacy in China and the statement about racism and migration cannot easily be reconciled. He might have just struck an immense blow against communism in China by legitimizing the pontifical authority over Chinese bishops on the one hand while weakening his influence in Europe by so repeatedly asking to open the floodgates of immigration at the same time. How can increasing the number of Catholics in China be good and decreasing the percentage of Catholics in Europe be a good at the same time?

EDIT

And tuttle, I'm thinking it might put the Protestants in a bit of a bind because the RC just recognized the legitimacy of the government while the Protestant Underground is maintaining its supreme authority. Essentially, the Pope worked with the government where the Pastors are refusing to...sort of an interesting situation.
hugo!!!

I've missed you man! I always enjoy reading your thoughts and value your perspective. Good to see you again!
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:11 pm

Del wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:28 am
I am unable to discern whether you think this sort of thing is very good or very bad.

But it seems that you mostly post articles from the political-leftist-schismatic writers.

This is useful sometimes -- they are quite strident about immigration concerns, shared in common with quietly faithful Catholics. But guys like Michael Sean Winters and the author of article seem to view the Catholic Church more as a useful tool toward advancing their politics -- rather than God's gift, established by Christ, for the salvation of the world.
What is your issue, Del? Wosbald rarely says anything anymore about anything, a shame that. He posts articles from various Catholic perspectives. Why does EVERYTHING and EVERYONE have to be filtered through your political judgement indicator?

So what are your particular thoughts and concerns about the Synod, Del?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:29 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:11 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:28 am
I am unable to discern whether you think this sort of thing is very good or very bad.

But it seems that you mostly post articles from the political-leftist-schismatic writers.

This is useful sometimes -- they are quite strident about immigration concerns, shared in common with quietly faithful Catholics. But guys like Michael Sean Winters and the author of article seem to view the Catholic Church more as a useful tool toward advancing their politics -- rather than God's gift, established by Christ, for the salvation of the world.
What is your issue, Del? Wosbald rarely says anything anymore about anything, a shame that. He posts articles from various Catholic perspectives. Why does EVERYTHING and EVERYONE have to be filtered through your political judgement indicator?

So what are your particular thoughts and concerns about the Synod, Del?
I'm not much concerned about the Synod. I'm waiting to hear more about this Synod from a mainstream source.

Meanwhile, I am truly concerned about Wosbald and his journey. I love Wosbald very much. He's just inscrutable; that's all.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:42 pm

Hugo! :wavey:
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

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