I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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hugodrax
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:57 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:33 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:23 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:48 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:30 pm
tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:00 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:50 pm
tuttle wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:26 pm
The Pope is the Problem is the headline of this article.

Quoting the Washington Post:
The bishops of America’s 196 Catholic dioceses and archdioceses gathered in Baltimore on Monday morning, meeting for the first time since sexual abuse scandals rocked the church in the summer. They planned to vote on measures to tackle the crisis and prevent further crimes.

In the opening minutes of their meeting, the bishops heard a surprising report: Pope Francis had asked them not to vote on any of their proposals.

The pope does not want U.S. bishops to act to address bishops’ accountability on sexual abuse until he leads a worldwide meeting in February of church leaders, the president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Cardinal Daniel DiNardo, told the gathered bishops as the meeting opened Monday morning.

“At the insistence of the Holy See, we will not be voting on the two action items,” DiNardo said. He said he was “disappointed” by the pope’s directive.

Anne Barrett Doyle, co-director of BishopAccountability.org, called the last-minute order from the Vatican “truly incredible.”

“What we see here is the Vatican again trying to suppress even modest progress by the U.S. bishops,” said Doyle, whose group compiles data on clergy abuse in the church. “We’re seeing where the problem lies, which is with the Vatican. The outcome of this meeting, at best, was going to be tepid and ineffectual, but now it’s actually going to be completely without substance.”
The author goes on to say this (among other negative things about the Pope): "Any illusions that Francis was part of the solution to this crisis should now be dispelled. He is the chief stonewaller."

I don't think the Pope is the problem...but he certainly isn't helping. Things like not allowing bishops to take action against the sexual abuse crisis don't really have that 'let's get this problem fixed immediately and without delay' ring to it.
Tuttle,

I’d be very suspect of anything you read in the Washington Post regarding Catholicism. They once ran a full page ad urging Catholics to leave the Church funded by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. It was vicious. Coupled with their inflammatory editorial section, they had to specifically address The issue and deny that the Washington Post and/or its ownership and editorial board were anti-Catholic. They lost my subscription over it, and I usually have a pretty good sense of humor about those things.
I hear ya. I really do. There are certain sites I'll see a story from and be leery, but this story is being reported by more than just the post. And to be fair that was just the paper the article I linked to quoted. How bout the WSJ? https://www.wsj.com/articles/vatican-b ... 1542043668

The point is that the vote was halted by the pope, not the source who reported it (unless the source reported it falsely). I linked to that specific article (from The American Conservative...no doubt it leans to the right...but that should be obvious) because I find the insight and commentary interesting from author (a former Catholic) who has been following all of this.
Glad you’re reading around. There’s a lot of bunkum being written these days on every conceivable subject. Unfortunately the WSJ article is paywalled for me so I couldn’t read it. I’m suspicious in general of the press these days because it all just seems to have an ax to grind.

But I want to make it clear that I might have an ax to grind, too. I don’t know what’s going on anymore than the next guy and I want things fixed. I live in Pittsburgh—the diocese that got into the hottest water since Boston. Twice. I have a Bishop that forced a second collection plate last week to give to the synagogue. Wrap your mind around that one. Hey, do you spit upon His Most Holy Name and utterly deny His divinity, mocking those who believe? Here, have some of our parishioner’s money to rebuild your synagogue. We want to make sure you can spread your message that He is not risen. Some of the money that we’re also spending on criminal defense because we were diddling our parishioner’s kids.

I’m angry, but I don’t want a deflection of that anger, if that makes sense. We have some good bishops and some bad bishops, but right now my finger is pointing squarely at the Bishops as the ones that cocked this one up. The Bishops that, when they wrote the zero tolerance policy, specifically exempted themselves. I’m not saying the Pope is right and I’m not saying he’s wrong. But I will say I wouldn’t put the bishops in charge of their own investigations. They had that chance and they blew it.
Thanks for your transparency and honesty. I feel for you and pray God guides you through this.
I doubt that you intended to give me a good hearty laugh this morning, but I thank you for it nevertheless. Has modern Christianity really devolved into the language of group therapy?
Ha! Sadly, probably, yes.

But I only put it that way because I wanted to make sure I was being read as genuine rather than a smartass, which is a high possibility considering I'm playing for the other team while discussing some crazy, horrible, sinful stuff. I don't ever want to come off as gloating or smug when I'm in the middle of this discussion. I really do appreciate you revealing what you did because you didn't have to. It helps me be more specific in prayer.
My friend, you have nothing to explain. I get it. Everybody is so quick to take offense these days that we all have to be super careful in our language choice. It was just unintentionally funny to read.

You know, I've honestly never thought of you as playing on a different team, though I certainly wouldn't put you in the starting squad if I was coaching, either. If it's any consolation, i wouldnt include myself, either. t's so hard to explain. Theologically, I suppose, we both think the other is in error. To me, though, playing on different teams here would mean one of us thinks the other is playing for the Devil.

I appreciate the attempt to be as inoffensive as possible. Lord knows, I'm easily offended and more offensive than most, and you've kept me gruntled. :D
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:12 am

+JMJ+

Making sense of Vatican’s no-fly order to US bishops on abuse crisis [News Analysis]
Image
Cardinal Daniel DiNardo of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston, president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, prepares to lead the USCCB's annual fall meeting, Monday, Nov. 12, 2018, in Baltimore. (Credit: AP Photo/Patrick Semansky)

MIAMI — In the run-up to the U.S. bishop’s fall meeting this week in Baltimore, the expectation - to be clear, the expectation of the bishops themselves - was that they’d be making some important decisions on the clerical sexual abuse crisis that’s rocked the Church for the last six months.

Instead, what unfolded Monday morning basically sucked all the oxygen out of the room, when Cardinal Daniel Dinardo of Galveston-Houston, president of the conference, announced that the Vatican has asked the bishops to delay doing anything until February, when Pope Francis plans to convene a summit of presidents of bishops’ conferences around the world to discuss child protection.

[…]

Granted, there are multiple reasons for the request that don’t necessarily suggest denial. Jesuit Father James Martin suggested several in a series of tweets Monday morning, floating the idea that perhaps Francis wants the response to be more universal, that the USCCB may not be unified enough to confront the situation, and that maybe Francis has something up his sleeve for February that he doesn’t want to preempt.

As the day played out, an alternative explanation emerged. Multiple sources told Crux that there were serious problems under Church law with several of the proposals the bishops had developed, which were only finalized Oct. 30, giving the Vatican precious little time to react.

According to that view, Ouellet actually did the USCCB a favor by asking them to cool their heels, avoiding a scenario in which their proposals had to be shot down in Rome, thereby exposing them for not doing their homework.

[…]

In reaction to DiNardo’s announcement, Cardinal Blase Cupich of Chicago proposed that the bishops take a non-binding vote on the matters they were already planning to consider, such as subjecting bishops to the “zero tolerance” standard, simply as an expression of where the conference stands. Presumably, that would be useful input for DiNardo to carry to Rome in February when he’ll take part in the summit of conference presidents.

Cupich actually said this is a “watershed moment” for the global Church.

“We need to be clear where we stand and tell our people where we stand,” he said.

It remains to be seen if that’s what the bishops will do, or if they’ll stand down on the grounds that it’s what Rome asked.

(As a footnote, it’s a bit curious that DiNardo was left to make that announcement, rather than French Archbishop Christoph Pierre, the Vatican ambassador to the U.S., who’s in Baltimore. If it’s a Vatican request, it’s not clear why the pope’s man in the country didn’t want to stand behind it.)

In much American media discussion on Monday, casual references to “the Vatican” standing in the way of the U.S. bishops abounded. However, the plain truth is that under Francis, the traditional structures of the Vatican have lost most of their power in favor of personal leadership by the pope himself.

Sooner or later, the question will become not where “the Vatican” stands, but the pontiff himself.

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:09 am

+JMJ+

Francis, Benedict say there is ‘urgent’ need to address human rights
Image
In this Sunday, Sept. 28, 2014 file photo, Pope Francis, right, hugs Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI prior to the start of a meeting with elderly faithful in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia, File)

ROME — Both Pope Francis and retired Pope Benedict XVI have praised a symposium happening this week in Rome exploring human rights, saying there has been a breakdown of the idea of a right, putting the development of humanity at risk.

In a letter signed Nov. 12 and addressed to Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, president of the Joseph Ratzinger-Benedict XVI Foundation, Benedict offered praise for the Nov. 15-16 symposium the foundation is organizing on “Fundamental Rights and Conflicts Among Rights.”

Calling the initiative “extraordinarily useful,” Benedict said the most important topic up for discussion, in his view, is “the problem of the ‘multiplication of rights’ and the risk ‘of the destruction of the idea of a right.’”

This, he said, “is a current and fundamental question for the protection of the basis of the coexistence of the human family, which merits to be placed again as a topic of deep and systematic reflection.”

Benedict assured the speakers and participants of the conference of his respect and closeness in prayer, asking God to bless their work as “a precious service for the Church and for the good of the human family.”

In a Nov. 13 letter also addressed to Lombardi, and which was published Nov. 15 alongside Benedict’s letter, Pope Francis noted how the 70th anniversary of the December 1948 United Nations Declaration on Human Rights is approaching.

He said the date is an opportunity to celebrate not only the signing of the declaration, but to reflect on the “the development of the vision of human rights in the modern world.”

Over the years, “the interpretation of some rights has progressively been modified, to the point of including a multiplicity of ‘new rights,’ not infrequently in contradiction with one another,” he said, adding that this development has lead to numerous problems with the idea of a right, including fundamental rights.

Speaking of his predecessor, Francis said Benedict XVI recognized the “urgency” of these changes and intervened as both “a thinker and a pastor,” receiving an honorary doctorate in jurisprudence from LUMSA University when he was still a cardinal in 1999.

Francis closed his letter voicing hope that the gathering, in drawing on “the thought and the magisterium” of Benedict XVI’s papacy, would contribute “with courage and depth to shed light on an essential problem for the protection of the dignity of the human person and their integral development.”

[…]
===================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================

If everything's a 'right,' then nothing is, says Vatican legal czar [In-Depth]
Image
The Vatican flag flies with the flags of nations outside the U.N. headquarters in New York. (Credit: Bob Roller/CNS)

ROME — There’s often a “conflict of rights” in Western societies, according to the president of the Vatican’s own legal tribunal, which he said is seen first of all in a confusion between basic “fundamental rights,” such as the right to life and freedom, and “common rights,” such as a right to free speech or freedom of the press.

A certain level of conflict and tension arise when these two categories are confused, said Professor Giuseppe Dalla Torre in an interview with Crux, noting that a sort-of “plurality of rights” develops when a society forcefully claims as inherent human rights things that end up contradicting one another, such as “the right to life and the right to abortion.”

“Contemporary society, especially Western society, which is a secularized, individualist, relativist society, tends to claim them not as rights, but a right as a fundamental right … the property of their desires,” Dalla Torre said, explaining that this then “collides with the rights of others.”

The subsequent clash risks bringing about “the destruction of the idea of a right” altogether, he said, because, “if everything is a right, if my desire becomes a right, then obviously the idea of a right” is devalued.

[…]
===================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================

UN body seeks to define abortion and assisted suicide as a ‘human right’
Image
In this file photo, the United Nations Human Rights Council meets. (Credit: Eric Bridiers/U.S. Mission Geneva)

MIAMI — An advanced, unedited version of a ‘general comment’ on the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights by the United Nations Human Rights Committee wants to define abortion and assisted suicide as a human right.

“Although States parties may adopt measures designed to regulate voluntary terminations of pregnancy, such measures must not result in violation of the right to life of a pregnant woman or girl, or her other rights under the Covenant,” says the draft, placing the life of the mother ahead of that of the unborn child.

The Geneva-based United Nations Human Rights Council was established in 2006 to promote and protect human rights around the world. A “General Comment” is a UN agency’s interpretation of the provisions of the treaties to which it is a party.

The comment also says that States must guarantee “safe, legal and effective” access to abortion when the life of the pregnant woman is at risk, or when carrying the pregnancy to term could cause her pain or suffering, “most notably where the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest or is not viable.”

Yet, the body, headed by former Chilean President Michelle Bachelet, who legalized abortion under three situations in her country before leaving office, also argues that States “may not regulate pregnancy or abortion in all other cases in a manner that runs contrary to their duty to ensure that women and girls do not have to undertake unsafe abortions, and they should revise their abortion laws accordingly.”

It calls for the decriminalization of abortion, both for women and the medical providers assisting them, and State parties should “not introduce new barriers and should remove existing barriers” that deny access to a safe abortion, “including barriers caused as a result of the exercise of conscientious objection by individual medical providers.”

It also says that governments should guarantee “boys and girls” access to a wide range of affordable contraceptive methods, and prevent the stigmatization of girls seeking abortion. Furthermore, they should guarantee girls have access to post-abortion health care “in all circumstances, and on a confidential basis.”

In addition, the draft comment Crux had access to also calls on States to allow medical professionals to provide treatment to “facilitate the termination of life of afflicted adults, such as those who are terminally ill, who experience severe physical or mental pain and suffering and who wish to die with dignity.”

[…]
"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph." - Our Lady of Fatima

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:08 am

wosbald wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:09 am
+JMJ+

Francis, Benedict say there is ‘urgent’ need to address human rights
Image
In this Sunday, Sept. 28, 2014 file photo, Pope Francis, right, hugs Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI prior to the start of a meeting with elderly faithful in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia, File)

ROME — Both Pope Francis and retired Pope Benedict XVI have praised a symposium happening this week in Rome exploring human rights, saying there has been a breakdown of the idea of a right, putting the development of humanity at risk.

In a letter signed Nov. 12 and addressed to Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, president of the Joseph Ratzinger-Benedict XVI Foundation, Benedict offered praise for the Nov. 15-16 symposium the foundation is organizing on “Fundamental Rights and Conflicts Among Rights.”

Calling the initiative “extraordinarily useful,” Benedict said the most important topic up for discussion, in his view, is “the problem of the ‘multiplication of rights’ and the risk ‘of the destruction of the idea of a right.’”

This, he said, “is a current and fundamental question for the protection of the basis of the coexistence of the human family, which merits to be placed again as a topic of deep and systematic reflection.”

Benedict assured the speakers and participants of the conference of his respect and closeness in prayer, asking God to bless their work as “a precious service for the Church and for the good of the human family.”

In a Nov. 13 letter also addressed to Lombardi, and which was published Nov. 15 alongside Benedict’s letter, Pope Francis noted how the 70th anniversary of the December 1948 United Nations Declaration on Human Rights is approaching.

He said the date is an opportunity to celebrate not only the signing of the declaration, but to reflect on the “the development of the vision of human rights in the modern world.”

Over the years, “the interpretation of some rights has progressively been modified, to the point of including a multiplicity of ‘new rights,’ not infrequently in contradiction with one another,” he said, adding that this development has lead to numerous problems with the idea of a right, including fundamental rights.

Speaking of his predecessor, Francis said Benedict XVI recognized the “urgency” of these changes and intervened as both “a thinker and a pastor,” receiving an honorary doctorate in jurisprudence from LUMSA University when he was still a cardinal in 1999.

Francis closed his letter voicing hope that the gathering, in drawing on “the thought and the magisterium” of Benedict XVI’s papacy, would contribute “with courage and depth to shed light on an essential problem for the protection of the dignity of the human person and their integral development.”

[…]
This is a bit like a cancer patient who is constantly dragging his feet regarding his own treatment but says it's urgent for him to go help his neighbor fix his house.
Christmas is Yule, dummies! We're doing the same thing, just better!

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:08 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:09 am
+JMJ+

Francis, Benedict say there is ‘urgent’ need to address human rights
Image
In this Sunday, Sept. 28, 2014 file photo, Pope Francis, right, hugs Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI prior to the start of a meeting with elderly faithful in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia, File)

ROME — Both Pope Francis and retired Pope Benedict XVI have praised a symposium happening this week in Rome exploring human rights, saying there has been a breakdown of the idea of a right, putting the development of humanity at risk.

In a letter signed Nov. 12 and addressed to Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, president of the Joseph Ratzinger-Benedict XVI Foundation, Benedict offered praise for the Nov. 15-16 symposium the foundation is organizing on “Fundamental Rights and Conflicts Among Rights.”

Calling the initiative “extraordinarily useful,” Benedict said the most important topic up for discussion, in his view, is “the problem of the ‘multiplication of rights’ and the risk ‘of the destruction of the idea of a right.’”

This, he said, “is a current and fundamental question for the protection of the basis of the coexistence of the human family, which merits to be placed again as a topic of deep and systematic reflection.”

Benedict assured the speakers and participants of the conference of his respect and closeness in prayer, asking God to bless their work as “a precious service for the Church and for the good of the human family.”

In a Nov. 13 letter also addressed to Lombardi, and which was published Nov. 15 alongside Benedict’s letter, Pope Francis noted how the 70th anniversary of the December 1948 United Nations Declaration on Human Rights is approaching.

He said the date is an opportunity to celebrate not only the signing of the declaration, but to reflect on the “the development of the vision of human rights in the modern world.”

Over the years, “the interpretation of some rights has progressively been modified, to the point of including a multiplicity of ‘new rights,’ not infrequently in contradiction with one another,” he said, adding that this development has lead to numerous problems with the idea of a right, including fundamental rights.

Speaking of his predecessor, Francis said Benedict XVI recognized the “urgency” of these changes and intervened as both “a thinker and a pastor,” receiving an honorary doctorate in jurisprudence from LUMSA University when he was still a cardinal in 1999.

Francis closed his letter voicing hope that the gathering, in drawing on “the thought and the magisterium” of Benedict XVI’s papacy, would contribute “with courage and depth to shed light on an essential problem for the protection of the dignity of the human person and their integral development.”

[…]
This is a bit like a cancer patient who is constantly dragging his feet regarding his own treatment but says it's urgent for him to go help his neighbor fix his house.
Hmm. Maybe you are playing for the other team.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:01 am

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:08 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:09 am
+JMJ+

Francis, Benedict say there is ‘urgent’ need to address human rights
Image
In this Sunday, Sept. 28, 2014 file photo, Pope Francis, right, hugs Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI prior to the start of a meeting with elderly faithful in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia, File)

ROME — Both Pope Francis and retired Pope Benedict XVI have praised a symposium happening this week in Rome exploring human rights, saying there has been a breakdown of the idea of a right, putting the development of humanity at risk.

In a letter signed Nov. 12 and addressed to Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, president of the Joseph Ratzinger-Benedict XVI Foundation, Benedict offered praise for the Nov. 15-16 symposium the foundation is organizing on “Fundamental Rights and Conflicts Among Rights.”

Calling the initiative “extraordinarily useful,” Benedict said the most important topic up for discussion, in his view, is “the problem of the ‘multiplication of rights’ and the risk ‘of the destruction of the idea of a right.’”

This, he said, “is a current and fundamental question for the protection of the basis of the coexistence of the human family, which merits to be placed again as a topic of deep and systematic reflection.”

Benedict assured the speakers and participants of the conference of his respect and closeness in prayer, asking God to bless their work as “a precious service for the Church and for the good of the human family.”

In a Nov. 13 letter also addressed to Lombardi, and which was published Nov. 15 alongside Benedict’s letter, Pope Francis noted how the 70th anniversary of the December 1948 United Nations Declaration on Human Rights is approaching.

He said the date is an opportunity to celebrate not only the signing of the declaration, but to reflect on the “the development of the vision of human rights in the modern world.”

Over the years, “the interpretation of some rights has progressively been modified, to the point of including a multiplicity of ‘new rights,’ not infrequently in contradiction with one another,” he said, adding that this development has lead to numerous problems with the idea of a right, including fundamental rights.

Speaking of his predecessor, Francis said Benedict XVI recognized the “urgency” of these changes and intervened as both “a thinker and a pastor,” receiving an honorary doctorate in jurisprudence from LUMSA University when he was still a cardinal in 1999.

Francis closed his letter voicing hope that the gathering, in drawing on “the thought and the magisterium” of Benedict XVI’s papacy, would contribute “with courage and depth to shed light on an essential problem for the protection of the dignity of the human person and their integral development.”

[…]
This is a bit like a cancer patient who is constantly dragging his feet regarding his own treatment but says it's urgent for him to go help his neighbor fix his house.
Hmm. Maybe you are playing for the other team.
:lol:

But really, this is sadly ironic. Why demand urgency in this, but delay and halt and drag your feet when urgency is precisely the thing needed in the sexual abuse scandal? This is a put the oxygen mask on yourself before the child kind of thing.
Christmas is Yule, dummies! We're doing the same thing, just better!

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:20 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:01 am
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:08 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:09 am
+JMJ+

Francis, Benedict say there is ‘urgent’ need to address human rights
Image
In this Sunday, Sept. 28, 2014 file photo, Pope Francis, right, hugs Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI prior to the start of a meeting with elderly faithful in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia, File)

ROME — Both Pope Francis and retired Pope Benedict XVI have praised a symposium happening this week in Rome exploring human rights, saying there has been a breakdown of the idea of a right, putting the development of humanity at risk.

In a letter signed Nov. 12 and addressed to Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, president of the Joseph Ratzinger-Benedict XVI Foundation, Benedict offered praise for the Nov. 15-16 symposium the foundation is organizing on “Fundamental Rights and Conflicts Among Rights.”

Calling the initiative “extraordinarily useful,” Benedict said the most important topic up for discussion, in his view, is “the problem of the ‘multiplication of rights’ and the risk ‘of the destruction of the idea of a right.’”

This, he said, “is a current and fundamental question for the protection of the basis of the coexistence of the human family, which merits to be placed again as a topic of deep and systematic reflection.”

Benedict assured the speakers and participants of the conference of his respect and closeness in prayer, asking God to bless their work as “a precious service for the Church and for the good of the human family.”

In a Nov. 13 letter also addressed to Lombardi, and which was published Nov. 15 alongside Benedict’s letter, Pope Francis noted how the 70th anniversary of the December 1948 United Nations Declaration on Human Rights is approaching.

He said the date is an opportunity to celebrate not only the signing of the declaration, but to reflect on the “the development of the vision of human rights in the modern world.”

Over the years, “the interpretation of some rights has progressively been modified, to the point of including a multiplicity of ‘new rights,’ not infrequently in contradiction with one another,” he said, adding that this development has lead to numerous problems with the idea of a right, including fundamental rights.

Speaking of his predecessor, Francis said Benedict XVI recognized the “urgency” of these changes and intervened as both “a thinker and a pastor,” receiving an honorary doctorate in jurisprudence from LUMSA University when he was still a cardinal in 1999.

Francis closed his letter voicing hope that the gathering, in drawing on “the thought and the magisterium” of Benedict XVI’s papacy, would contribute “with courage and depth to shed light on an essential problem for the protection of the dignity of the human person and their integral development.”

[…]
This is a bit like a cancer patient who is constantly dragging his feet regarding his own treatment but says it's urgent for him to go help his neighbor fix his house.
Hmm. Maybe you are playing for the other team.
:lol:

But really, this is sadly ironic. Why demand urgency in this, but delay and halt and drag your feet when urgency is precisely the thing needed in the sexual abuse scandal? This is a put the oxygen mask on yourself before the child kind of thing.
Not really, at least to me. I decided to have a delightful bowl of Skiff Mixture before responding. Mellow, fragrant. I hope it put me in a right frame of mind.

First, a disclaimer. I speak not as the Pope, nor as a Bishop, nor a priest. There is no nihil obstat on my writings. I am but a pew-sitting member of Sacred Heart. So you can take it or leave it--theres nothing official about my writing here.

Let's dismiss the word "urgent," if we may. I dont think it means the same in Vatican terminology that it would mean to you and me. If you said something was urgent, it would go to the top of my pile. If the administration of the Church says its urgent, my experience indicates that it means it should be dealt with in the next fifty years or so.

Now, I'm no fan of this Pope and I'm no enemy of his, either. I am often confused by his actions. I also am not a fan of ultramontanism, the consolidation of power in papal hands.

I've been listening to the bishop's conference on the local catholic radio station and, listening to their voices, you can just hear the effiminacy. I genuinely thought one was a gal until he was addressed as His Eminence. They're all deeply pained by this unprecedented lack of trust in them as Bishops and hurt by the Pope taking the investigation away from them.

Now let's say you were a regional manager of, what's the most American of establishments, shall we say Wal-Mart?--and you suspected your store managers of engaging in or covering up theft by their employees. And it's clear that whether they're involved or not, this happened in their stores. Would you let them investigate themselves, knowing they have a zero tolerance policy for employees, but not themselves? Would you let them write the policies determining how evidence of thefts should be dealt with?

The Bishops should not, in my opinion, be left to investigate their own potential wrong doing. I'd put em all in a room to sweat it out, too. I want answers too. But I want real answers, not instant Professor Pangloss-ian responses. I think the Pope, as an administrator, is right to keep the power in his own hands on this one.

Proposed test:

https://youtu.be/iEqN4ZTBAJY

Consequences of Failing Test:
https://youtu.be/NRt2cKvJLlE
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:41 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:20 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:01 am
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:08 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:09 am
+JMJ+

Francis, Benedict say there is ‘urgent’ need to address human rights
Image
In this Sunday, Sept. 28, 2014 file photo, Pope Francis, right, hugs Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI prior to the start of a meeting with elderly faithful in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia, File)

ROME — Both Pope Francis and retired Pope Benedict XVI have praised a symposium happening this week in Rome exploring human rights, saying there has been a breakdown of the idea of a right, putting the development of humanity at risk.

In a letter signed Nov. 12 and addressed to Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, president of the Joseph Ratzinger-Benedict XVI Foundation, Benedict offered praise for the Nov. 15-16 symposium the foundation is organizing on “Fundamental Rights and Conflicts Among Rights.”

Calling the initiative “extraordinarily useful,” Benedict said the most important topic up for discussion, in his view, is “the problem of the ‘multiplication of rights’ and the risk ‘of the destruction of the idea of a right.’”

This, he said, “is a current and fundamental question for the protection of the basis of the coexistence of the human family, which merits to be placed again as a topic of deep and systematic reflection.”

Benedict assured the speakers and participants of the conference of his respect and closeness in prayer, asking God to bless their work as “a precious service for the Church and for the good of the human family.”

In a Nov. 13 letter also addressed to Lombardi, and which was published Nov. 15 alongside Benedict’s letter, Pope Francis noted how the 70th anniversary of the December 1948 United Nations Declaration on Human Rights is approaching.

He said the date is an opportunity to celebrate not only the signing of the declaration, but to reflect on the “the development of the vision of human rights in the modern world.”

Over the years, “the interpretation of some rights has progressively been modified, to the point of including a multiplicity of ‘new rights,’ not infrequently in contradiction with one another,” he said, adding that this development has lead to numerous problems with the idea of a right, including fundamental rights.

Speaking of his predecessor, Francis said Benedict XVI recognized the “urgency” of these changes and intervened as both “a thinker and a pastor,” receiving an honorary doctorate in jurisprudence from LUMSA University when he was still a cardinal in 1999.

Francis closed his letter voicing hope that the gathering, in drawing on “the thought and the magisterium” of Benedict XVI’s papacy, would contribute “with courage and depth to shed light on an essential problem for the protection of the dignity of the human person and their integral development.”

[…]
This is a bit like a cancer patient who is constantly dragging his feet regarding his own treatment but says it's urgent for him to go help his neighbor fix his house.
Hmm. Maybe you are playing for the other team.
:lol:

But really, this is sadly ironic. Why demand urgency in this, but delay and halt and drag your feet when urgency is precisely the thing needed in the sexual abuse scandal? This is a put the oxygen mask on yourself before the child kind of thing.
Not really, at least to me. I decided to have a delightful bowl of Skiff Mixture before responding. Mellow, fragrant. I hope it put me in a right frame of mind.

First, a disclaimer. I speak not as the Pope, nor as a Bishop, nor a priest. There is no nihil obstat on my writings. I am but a pew-sitting member of Sacred Heart. So you can take it or leave it--theres nothing official about my writing here.

Let's dismiss the word "urgent," if we may. I dont think it means the same in Vatican terminology that it would mean to you and me. If you said something was urgent, it would go to the top of my pile. If the administration of the Church says its urgent, my experience indicates that it means it should be dealt with in the next fifty years or so.

Now, I'm no fan of this Pope and I'm no enemy of his, either. I am often confused by his actions. I also am not a fan of ultramontanism, the consolidation of power in papal hands.

I've been listening to the bishop's conference on the local catholic radio station and, listening to their voices, you can just hear the effiminacy. I genuinely thought one was a gal until he was addressed as His Eminence. They're all deeply pained by this unprecedented lack of trust in them as Bishops and hurt by the Pope taking the investigation away from them.

Now let's say you were a regional manager of, what's the most American of establishments, shall we say Wal-Mart?--and you suspected your store managers of engaging in or covering up theft by their employees. And it's clear that whether they're involved or not, this happened in their stores. Would you let them investigate themselves, knowing they have a zero tolerance policy for employees, but not themselves? Would you let them write the policies determining how evidence of thefts should be dealt with?

The Bishops should not, in my opinion, be left to investigate their own potential wrong doing. I'd put em all in a room to sweat it out, too. I want answers too. But I want real answers, not instant Professor Pangloss-ian responses. I think the Pope, as an administrator, is right to keep the power in his own hands on this one.

Proposed test:

https://youtu.be/iEqN4ZTBAJY

Consequences of Failing Test:
https://youtu.be/NRt2cKvJLlE
Unfortunately the videos are filtered for me (at the moment) so I might be missing some context.

But I do understand what you are saying, and I understand the hesitancy to let the problem makers solve problems, but as an outsider looking in (who also sees many many insiders more or less expressing extreme frustration over the same issue) it's still mind-numbing that the man with the power in his hands chooses to twiddle his thumbs over this issue, especially in light of some insider claims. I also speak as one who has been a part of a congregation where sexual abuse of minors took place from someone in pastoral leadership, so I feel I have some similar insight, at least on a certain level, and certainly sympathy for many Catholic pew sitters. In the situation I experienced, justice and action were swift. If I were a Catholic pew-sitter during all of this foot dragging and bluster, I would be irate.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:06 pm

+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackback: pg 82


Theologian: Postponement of sex abuse norms shows Francis-US Church ‘tensions’
Image
Dr. Massimo Faggioli, professor in the department of theology and religious studies at Villanova University. (Credit: Massimo Faggioli)

Theologian Massimo Faggioli spoke to Crux about the recent move by the Vatican to postpone a vote by the U.S. bishops on updated sex abuse norms.

[Dr. Massimo Faggioli is a professor in the department of theology and religious studies at Villanova University, and contributing writer for Commonwea and La Croix International. His most recent book published in English is Catholicism and Citizenship. Political Cultures of the Church in the 21st Century (Liturgical Press, 2017). The Italian-born theologian spoke to Charles Camosy about the state of the Church in the U.S. and the recent Vatican intervention stopping the USCCB from voting on new standards for bishops when it comes to abuse cases.]

Camosy: Dramatic times in the U.S. and Global Catholic Church at the moment. Can you give us some historical perspective about where we are as a Church right now? What would you say to despairing Catholics?

Faggioli: As I wrote in Foreign Affairs, this could be the worst crisis since the Reformation, and the Catholic Church could be facing its most serious crisis in 500 years. It is a church in need of institutional reform and facing growing political, theological, and geopolitical rifts that go beyond a simplistic ideological rift between liberals and conservatives. It is the end of a world in which there was a parallelism between Church and State with the church in charge of religion and the state of politics. But it is also a very vital church, a very important point of reference in the global world, with an intellectual tradition that is being rediscovered and re-inculturated, and not at all forgotten.

[…]

What do you make of how the Vatican is responding to the U.S. bishops and their desire to vote on a code of conduct and a lay investigative and review board? How much do you think Pope Francis has to do with this delay?

I think it is a decision Francis made after hearing and reading the memos and documents on the issue. It is a bold decision and also an unpopular one, given the frustration of American Catholics. But on the horizon there is also the preparation of the February meeting of the presidents of the bishops’ conferences in the Vatican, and I think the decision communicated at the beginning of the USCCB meeting has to be read in that context. As it has been said by others, this decision raises the stakes of the February meeting and the responsibility of the Vatican in dealing with this crisis.

Clearly, the relationship between Francis and the U.S. Church started with some tensions from the very beginning, had a brief interlude with his trip to the USA in September 2015, and it has become more tumultuous since then and especially in 2018. This is a key element that makes the abuse crisis in the Church today very different from 2002: now the mutual roles of the Vatican and of the U.S. bishops are constantly shifting and it is more difficult to frame the situation ideologically as “liberals vs. conservatives” or “reformers vs. status quo.”

We need Church reform, but some lay-run plans for reform announced recently in the manner of political opposition research — like for example the “Red Hat Report” — are clearly a threat to religious liberty and the freedom of the Church. And this is something Rome pays attention to, especially since the 11th and 12th centuries when a certain pattern of distinction between the Church and the “empire” — and freedom of the Church especially when it is about the election of the pope — came to be.

[…]
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:13 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:41 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:20 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:01 am
hugodrax wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:22 am
tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:08 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:09 am
+JMJ+

Francis, Benedict say there is ‘urgent’ need to address human rights
Image
In this Sunday, Sept. 28, 2014 file photo, Pope Francis, right, hugs Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI prior to the start of a meeting with elderly faithful in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia, File)

ROME — Both Pope Francis and retired Pope Benedict XVI have praised a symposium happening this week in Rome exploring human rights, saying there has been a breakdown of the idea of a right, putting the development of humanity at risk.

In a letter signed Nov. 12 and addressed to Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, president of the Joseph Ratzinger-Benedict XVI Foundation, Benedict offered praise for the Nov. 15-16 symposium the foundation is organizing on “Fundamental Rights and Conflicts Among Rights.”

Calling the initiative “extraordinarily useful,” Benedict said the most important topic up for discussion, in his view, is “the problem of the ‘multiplication of rights’ and the risk ‘of the destruction of the idea of a right.’”

This, he said, “is a current and fundamental question for the protection of the basis of the coexistence of the human family, which merits to be placed again as a topic of deep and systematic reflection.”

Benedict assured the speakers and participants of the conference of his respect and closeness in prayer, asking God to bless their work as “a precious service for the Church and for the good of the human family.”

In a Nov. 13 letter also addressed to Lombardi, and which was published Nov. 15 alongside Benedict’s letter, Pope Francis noted how the 70th anniversary of the December 1948 United Nations Declaration on Human Rights is approaching.

He said the date is an opportunity to celebrate not only the signing of the declaration, but to reflect on the “the development of the vision of human rights in the modern world.”

Over the years, “the interpretation of some rights has progressively been modified, to the point of including a multiplicity of ‘new rights,’ not infrequently in contradiction with one another,” he said, adding that this development has lead to numerous problems with the idea of a right, including fundamental rights.

Speaking of his predecessor, Francis said Benedict XVI recognized the “urgency” of these changes and intervened as both “a thinker and a pastor,” receiving an honorary doctorate in jurisprudence from LUMSA University when he was still a cardinal in 1999.

Francis closed his letter voicing hope that the gathering, in drawing on “the thought and the magisterium” of Benedict XVI’s papacy, would contribute “with courage and depth to shed light on an essential problem for the protection of the dignity of the human person and their integral development.”

[…]
This is a bit like a cancer patient who is constantly dragging his feet regarding his own treatment but says it's urgent for him to go help his neighbor fix his house.
Hmm. Maybe you are playing for the other team.
:lol:

But really, this is sadly ironic. Why demand urgency in this, but delay and halt and drag your feet when urgency is precisely the thing needed in the sexual abuse scandal? This is a put the oxygen mask on yourself before the child kind of thing.
Not really, at least to me. I decided to have a delightful bowl of Skiff Mixture before responding. Mellow, fragrant. I hope it put me in a right frame of mind.

First, a disclaimer. I speak not as the Pope, nor as a Bishop, nor a priest. There is no nihil obstat on my writings. I am but a pew-sitting member of Sacred Heart. So you can take it or leave it--theres nothing official about my writing here.

Let's dismiss the word "urgent," if we may. I dont think it means the same in Vatican terminology that it would mean to you and me. If you said something was urgent, it would go to the top of my pile. If the administration of the Church says its urgent, my experience indicates that it means it should be dealt with in the next fifty years or so.

Now, I'm no fan of this Pope and I'm no enemy of his, either. I am often confused by his actions. I also am not a fan of ultramontanism, the consolidation of power in papal hands.

I've been listening to the bishop's conference on the local catholic radio station and, listening to their voices, you can just hear the effiminacy. I genuinely thought one was a gal until he was addressed as His Eminence. They're all deeply pained by this unprecedented lack of trust in them as Bishops and hurt by the Pope taking the investigation away from them.

Now let's say you were a regional manager of, what's the most American of establishments, shall we say Wal-Mart?--and you suspected your store managers of engaging in or covering up theft by their employees. And it's clear that whether they're involved or not, this happened in their stores. Would you let them investigate themselves, knowing they have a zero tolerance policy for employees, but not themselves? Would you let them write the policies determining how evidence of thefts should be dealt with?

The Bishops should not, in my opinion, be left to investigate their own potential wrong doing. I'd put em all in a room to sweat it out, too. I want answers too. But I want real answers, not instant Professor Pangloss-ian responses. I think the Pope, as an administrator, is right to keep the power in his own hands on this one.

Proposed test:

https://youtu.be/iEqN4ZTBAJY

Consequences of Failing Test:
https://youtu.be/NRt2cKvJLlE
Unfortunately the videos are filtered for me (at the moment) so I might be missing some context.

But I do understand what you are saying, and I understand the hesitancy to let the problem makers solve problems, but as an outsider looking in (who also sees many many insiders more or less expressing extreme frustration over the same issue) it's still mind-numbing that the man with the power in his hands chooses to twiddle his thumbs over this issue, especially in light of some insider claims. I also speak as one who has been a part of a congregation where sexual abuse of minors took place from someone in pastoral leadership, so I feel I have some similar insight, at least on a certain level, and certainly sympathy for many Catholic pew sitters. In the situation I experienced, justice and action were swift. If I were a Catholic pew-sitter during all of this foot dragging and bluster, I would be irate.
Ah. Nothing special. The movies are the eunuch scene from history of the world and the excommunication scene from Beckett.

I dont see him as twiddling his thumbs at all, oddly enough. Nor do I see foot dragging or bluster. I see bishops fighting for their lives because their lifestyles are part of the problem.

I would argue that your experiences are certainly similar and also noticeably different, and that's probably why we view the matter so very differently. The diocese of Pittsburgh alone covers 3786 square miles and almost 700,000 souls. It isnt a single church, even a single mega-church. And the records go back for years--the results arent immediately accessible like we all want.

It's another case where everybody wants the same thing yet disagrees how to get there. I dont care if it takes time if we give the administration the proper enema.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:56 am

+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackback: pg 83


Jewish expert says John Paul II had it right on Church/State relations [In-Depth]
Image
President Ronald Reagan with John Paul II 1987 in the Miami airport. (Credit: Ronald Reagan Presidential Library)

ROME — Joseph Weiler, a prominent professor of law at New York University and an Orthodox Jew, has said that at a time of high polemics when the religious voice often has been “muted” from the public arena, Saint Pope John Paul II’s social teaching offers a balanced approach to the interaction between church and a secular state.

Speaking to Crux, Weiler said the modern concept of “rights” has been misconstrued in large part by “the excesses of cultural rights at the expense of duty and responsibility.”

“The main medium of political discourse [today] is of entitlement and rights, what I’m owed, what I’m entitled to, what is my zone of liberty,” he said, adding that in the fallout, “the religious voice has been muted” in a battle over whose rights are infringing on whose.

Weiler, who in addition to teaching law is also the European Un𝗂on Jean Monnet Chair at New York University Law School and Senior Fellow of the Minda de Gunzburg Center for European Studies at Harvard University, is currently attending a Nov. 15-16 symposium on “Fundamental Rights and a Conflict among Rights,” organized by the Joseph Ratzinger-Benedict XVI Foundation and held at Rome’s LUMSA University.

In his comments to Crux, Weiler noted that a contrast is often created between the French concept of laïcité, the insistence on a secular state, and religion, where believers end up pushing back against laws and policies they view as infringing on their religious freedom.

Weiler cautioned that religious people, including Catholics, “should speak on this with humility,” arguing that those in favor of a laïcité-based society are simply “adopting the practices of the confessional state, which was the norm until not too long ago.”

Laïcité is becoming a doctrine that was imposed in the way that Christianity was imposed under the confessional state. It was bad then and wrong then, and it’s bad now under this new religion called laïcité, or secularism,” he said, cautioning that a laïcité approach to politics and law has in many ways become “Christophobic,” operating with “a Stalinist instinct.”

What is most troubling in Weiler’s view is that laïcité is often confused with neutrality, as if imposing secularism on society and believers means the state is walking on neutral ground — a trend he sees as alive and well in nations such as Italy, France and the United States.

In his view, the right balance in the relationship between a secular state and those who belong to a particular religious confession was found in John Paul II’s 1991 social encyclical, Centesimus Annus, which Weiler said offered “a very, very appealing way to understand the relationship between Christianity and liberalism.”

“The Christianity of John Paul II was not the imposition of the confessional state,” because rather than imposing its positions on others, “the Church proposes … and where there is imposition, it comes from natural law.”

Pointing to the widespread debate over the morality of abortion and euthanasia, Weiler said they are already “rights” in many countries around the globe, yet Christian opposition and the push for their illegalization is legitimate, since for Christians the issue is not a matter of teaching or doctrine but “natural law.”

[…]
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by durangopipe » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:05 pm

https://youtu.be/iEqN4ZTBAJY
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Nature of a Man » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:29 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:56 am
+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackback: pg 83


Jewish expert says John Paul II had it right on Church/State relations [In-Depth]
Image
President Ronald Reagan with John Paul II 1987 in the Miami airport. (Credit: Ronald Reagan Presidential Library)

ROME — Joseph Weiler, a prominent professor of law at New York University and an Orthodox Jew, has said that at a time of high polemics when the religious voice often has been “muted” from the public arena, Saint Pope John Paul II’s social teaching offers a balanced approach to the interaction between church and a secular state.

Speaking to Crux, Weiler said the modern concept of “rights” has been misconstrued in large part by “the excesses of cultural rights at the expense of duty and responsibility.”

“The main medium of political discourse [today] is of entitlement and rights, what I’m owed, what I’m entitled to, what is my zone of liberty,” he said, adding that in the fallout, “the religious voice has been muted” in a battle over whose rights are infringing on whose.

Weiler, who in addition to teaching law is also the European Un𝗂on Jean Monnet Chair at New York University Law School and Senior Fellow of the Minda de Gunzburg Center for European Studies at Harvard University, is currently attending a Nov. 15-16 symposium on “Fundamental Rights and a Conflict among Rights,” organized by the Joseph Ratzinger-Benedict XVI Foundation and held at Rome’s LUMSA University.

In his comments to Crux, Weiler noted that a contrast is often created between the French concept of laïcité, the insistence on a secular state, and religion, where believers end up pushing back against laws and policies they view as infringing on their religious freedom.

Weiler cautioned that religious people, including Catholics, “should speak on this with humility,” arguing that those in favor of a laïcité-based society are simply “adopting the practices of the confessional state, which was the norm until not too long ago.”

Laïcité is becoming a doctrine that was imposed in the way that Christianity was imposed under the confessional state. It was bad then and wrong then, and it’s bad now under this new religion called laïcité, or secularism,” he said, cautioning that a laïcité approach to politics and law has in many ways become “Christophobic,” operating with “a Stalinist instinct.”

What is most troubling in Weiler’s view is that laïcité is often confused with neutrality, as if imposing secularism on society and believers means the state is walking on neutral ground — a trend he sees as alive and well in nations such as Italy, France and the United States.

In his view, the right balance in the relationship between a secular state and those who belong to a particular religious confession was found in John Paul II’s 1991 social encyclical, Centesimus Annus, which Weiler said offered “a very, very appealing way to understand the relationship between Christianity and liberalism.”

“The Christianity of John Paul II was not the imposition of the confessional state,” because rather than imposing its positions on others, “the Church proposes … and where there is imposition, it comes from natural law.”

Pointing to the widespread debate over the morality of abortion and euthanasia, Weiler said they are already “rights” in many countries around the globe, yet Christian opposition and the push for their illegalization is legitimate, since for Christians the issue is not a matter of teaching or doctrine but “natural law.”

[…]
The "secular" state concept is something of a myth or social construct to begin with; a state is just the means by which religion and its laws are administered to the public - a national state is to religion what a police department is to a court. A "secular" state merely means that one single organized religion or church, such as the medieval Catholic Church, can't have a monopoly on the public and its laws - similar to what an anti-trust law is to corporations operating in a capitalist economy.

"Rights", whether American, European, or otherwise are also solely a religious concept, whether grounded in Judeo-Christian values or in other world religions, whether in "negative" or "positive" rights sense - much as how laws against murder are rooted in the Ten Commandments, rights such as a "right to property", is saying that a person has a "right not to be stolen from", meaning that one should not steal, as in the Ten Commandments as well.

Some aspects may not have been specifically "Christian" values (the Enlightenment having appropriated its concepts from Eastern religion such as Buddhism and its concepts of gaining Enlightenment through knowledge and pure living), but were nevertheless concepts inherent in world religions, and nonexistent in atheism. (I suppose the closest to a truly "secular" or atheist state might be primitive tyranny or 3rd world country such as North Korea, but even then it has to import a bare minimum of religious laws merely to keep it functioning and not merely kill itself off via its on immorality or degeneracy, such as laws against indiscriminate murder or rape (except if done by the tyrant in question).

Under an actual atheist or "secular" worldview, rights do not exist (beyond might, or law of the jungle), or have any inherent reason to be instituted by society to begin with - so any state which purports to have "rights" - whether justice, women's rights, property rights, etc, isn't really "secular" - since such things are all religious constructs to begin with, and a "secularist" could never appeal to their preservation or creation by a society to begin with without acknowledging God, and thereby renouncing their mythical secularism or atheism.

-

As far as the "secular cult" is concerned, my understanding is that its main modern day origin is from a French thinker Auguste Comte, who invented a "Religion of Humanity" sometime after the French Revolution, intended as a replacement for the Catholic Church, and arguably plagiarized from it - but without mythological elements which he believed were rooted in superstition.

His secular cult didn't catch on as an official religion in France, Britain, or Europe as a whole (though the US Supreme Court declared Secular Humanism a religion back in the 1970s), but was essentially where Secular Humanism as an organized religion or movement originated from.

-

My question is more along the lines of, why the secular cult and its minority of adherents should be given a voice in the public sphere of the religious nations of America, France, and whatnot. I'm not aware of the differences in the concept of Freedom of Speech in Europe compared to America (and its many popular misinterpretations), but my understanding is that in Europe, the secular cult, and isn't necessarily at much liberty to espouse its controversial views there as they currently are in the United States, and I'm wondering what, if any merit, allowing them to do so honestly is, given their little if any value to society as a whole, outside perhaps of the minds of those who hold superstitious views of various idiosyncratic figures such as Voltaire or Rousseau.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 am

Wosbald, my friend, would you quietly fetch some green wood?
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:50 pm

+JMJ+
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 am
Wosbald, my friend, would you quietly fetch some green wood?
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Nature of a Man » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:15 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 am
Wosbald, my friend, would you quietly fetch some green wood?
Just delete that post if you can, I forgot which forum I was in and that was too serious and political to be in this place.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:30 pm

Nature of a Man wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:15 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:20 am
Wosbald, my friend, would you quietly fetch some green wood?
Just delete that post if you can, I forgot which forum I was in and that was too serious and political to be in this place.
Dont be too hard on yourself, my friend. CPS is no church, just a gathering place.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:19 am

+JMJ+

Pope: the din of ‘ever more rich’ drown out cries of poor
Image
Pope Francis celebrates Mass in St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican, Sunday, Nov. 18, 2018. (Credit: AP Photo/Andrew Medichini)

VATICAN CITY — Championing the cause of the poor, Pope Francis on Sunday lamented that “the wealthy few” enjoy what, “in justice, belongs to all” and said Christians cannot remain indifferent to the growing cries of the exploited and the indigent, including migrants.

Francis invited about 6,000 poor people and volunteers to help him in the splendor of St. Peter’s Basilica as he celebrated Mass on a day the Catholic Church dedicates to the needy. Later, he sat down with 1,500 of the indigent for a lunch of lasagna, chicken, mashed potatoes and tiramisu in a Vatican auditorium.

In his homily, Francis said “we Christians cannot stand with arms folded in indifference or with arms outstretched in helplessness” about those in need. He cited the “stifled cry” of the unborn, of starving children, “of young people more used to the explosion of bombs than happy shouts at the playground.”

He also drew attention to the plight of abandoned elderly, the friendless and “the cry of all those forced to flee their homes and native land for an uncertain future. It is the cry of entire peoples, deprived even of the great natural resources at their disposal.”

Francis said the poor were weeping “while the wealthy few feast on what, in justice, belongs to all. Injustice is the perverse root of poverty.”

“The cry of the poor daily becomes stronger but every day heard less,” he said. That cry is “drowned out by the din on the rich few, who grow ever fewer and more rich,” the pontiff said.

[…]
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Jester
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Jester » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:39 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:19 am
+JMJ+

Pope: the din of ‘ever more rich’ drown out cries of poor
Image
Pope Francis celebrates Mass in St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican, Sunday, Nov. 18, 2018. (Credit: AP Photo/Andrew Medichini)

VATICAN CITY — Championing the cause of the poor, Pope Francis on Sunday lamented that “the wealthy few” enjoy what, “in justice, belongs to all” and said Christians cannot remain indifferent to the growing cries of the exploited and the indigent, including migrants.

Francis invited about 6,000 poor people and volunteers to help him in the splendor of St. Peter’s Basilica as he celebrated Mass on a day the Catholic Church dedicates to the needy. Later, he sat down with 1,500 of the indigent for a lunch of lasagna, chicken, mashed potatoes and tiramisu in a Vatican auditorium.

In his homily, Francis said “we Christians cannot stand with arms folded in indifference or with arms outstretched in helplessness” about those in need. He cited the “stifled cry” of the unborn, of starving children, “of young people more used to the explosion of bombs than happy shouts at the playground.”

He also drew attention to the plight of abandoned elderly, the friendless and “the cry of all those forced to flee their homes and native land for an uncertain future. It is the cry of entire peoples, deprived even of the great natural resources at their disposal.”

Francis said the poor were weeping “while the wealthy few feast on what, in justice, belongs to all. Injustice is the perverse root of poverty.”

“The cry of the poor daily becomes stronger but every day heard less,” he said. That cry is “drowned out by the din on the rich few, who grow ever fewer and more rich,” the pontiff said.

[…]
Image
Pope Francis on Sunday lamented that “the wealthy few” enjoy what, “in justice, belongs to all”
The wealthy few enjoy what nobody deserves. In justice, we all deserve the wrath of God. I find it strange that the Popes theology is lining up a bit with Joel Osteen here.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:58 am

Jester wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:39 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:19 am
+JMJ+

Pope: the din of ‘ever more rich’ drown out cries of poor
Image
Pope Francis celebrates Mass in St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican, Sunday, Nov. 18, 2018. (Credit: AP Photo/Andrew Medichini)

VATICAN CITY — Championing the cause of the poor, Pope Francis on Sunday lamented that “the wealthy few” enjoy what, “in justice, belongs to all” and said Christians cannot remain indifferent to the growing cries of the exploited and the indigent, including migrants.

Francis invited about 6,000 poor people and volunteers to help him in the splendor of St. Peter’s Basilica as he celebrated Mass on a day the Catholic Church dedicates to the needy. Later, he sat down with 1,500 of the indigent for a lunch of lasagna, chicken, mashed potatoes and tiramisu in a Vatican auditorium.

In his homily, Francis said “we Christians cannot stand with arms folded in indifference or with arms outstretched in helplessness” about those in need. He cited the “stifled cry” of the unborn, of starving children, “of young people more used to the explosion of bombs than happy shouts at the playground.”

He also drew attention to the plight of abandoned elderly, the friendless and “the cry of all those forced to flee their homes and native land for an uncertain future. It is the cry of entire peoples, deprived even of the great natural resources at their disposal.”

Francis said the poor were weeping “while the wealthy few feast on what, in justice, belongs to all. Injustice is the perverse root of poverty.”

“The cry of the poor daily becomes stronger but every day heard less,” he said. That cry is “drowned out by the din on the rich few, who grow ever fewer and more rich,” the pontiff said.

[…]
Image
Pope Francis on Sunday lamented that “the wealthy few” enjoy what, “in justice, belongs to all”
The wealthy few enjoy what nobody deserves. In justice, we all deserve the wrath of God. I find it strange that the Popes theology is lining up a bit with Joel Osteen here.
https://youtu.be/3B1IQYD4Uew
Etiam mihi opinio anserem perirent.

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