I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:27 am

+JMJ+

Intra-Thread Trackback: pg 98


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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:15 am

wosbald wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm
… My encouragement for my Catholic brothers (if you'll accept it!) would be just a continual plea to look to Christ, which I know many of you are, and root your faith in him so that even at the lowest point you won't be led astray.
Would that include not being "led astray" from those Catholic distinctives (e.g. Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism, Purgatory, etc.) against which the Reformation took its stand on the grounds of "being led astray"?

It is your wish — your "continual plea" — that Catholics hold firm in not being led astray from adhering to these things?
[I just want to start with saying that I am currently unable to see the tweet so I have no idea what it adds to this discussion, please accept my response in that light.]

As my attempt at encouragement wasn't aimed towards you, I can imagine it only leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

I see parallels in Roman Catholicism with what has happened and what is happening in my own tradition; namely a crafty leftist turn. I sympathize with those who see it for what it is, who lament it, and who are essentially powerless to do anything about it. I'm encouraging in the way that I find encouragement in the situations I'm familiar with.

My encouragement is to look to Christ isn't loaded. If Christ is for his Church, if he's the Shepherd of the Flock and Husband of the Bride, then He'll see Her through and will wash her white as snow, even if She is currently spotted and stained. That's the whole of my encouragement. Cling to Christ. He is our hope! I don't believe he's just the hope for Protestants, and my encouragement isn't an attempt to dupe. You all know where I stand. Insofar as Christ has done and will do all that he promises he will do, I'm just encouraging the discouraged to cling to our faithful Lord.

If Christ in the anchor, the ship will come through. If Christ is our root, the tree will not break. If Christ is our Light, we will not be led astray.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:30 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:15 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm
… My encouragement for my Catholic brothers (if you'll accept it!) would be just a continual plea to look to Christ, which I know many of you are, and root your faith in him so that even at the lowest point you won't be led astray.
Would that include not being "led astray" from those Catholic distinctives (e.g. Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism, Purgatory, etc.) against which the Reformation took its stand on the grounds of "being led astray"?

It is your wish — your "continual plea" — that Catholics hold firm in not being led astray from adhering to these things?
[I just want to start with saying that I am currently unable to see the tweet so I have no idea what it adds to this discussion, please accept my response in that light.]

As my attempt at encouragement wasn't aimed towards you, I can imagine it only leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

I see parallels in Roman Catholicism with what has happened and what is happening in my own tradition; namely a crafty leftist turn. I sympathize with those who see it for what it is, who lament it, and who are essentially powerless to do anything about it. I'm encouraging in the way that I find encouragement in the situations I'm familiar with.

My encouragement is to look to Christ isn't loaded. If Christ is for his Church, if he's the Shepherd of the Flock and Husband of the Bride, then He'll see Her through and will wash her white as snow, even if She is currently spotted and stained. That's the whole of my encouragement. Cling to Christ. He is our hope! I don't believe he's just the hope for Protestants, and my encouragement isn't an attempt to dupe. You all know where I stand. Insofar as Christ has done and will do all that he promises he will do, I'm just encouraging the discouraged to cling to our faithful Lord.

If Christ in the anchor, the ship will come through. If Christ is our root, the tree will not break. If Christ is our Light, we will not be led astray.
#1: Never thought it was "loaded". No "sour taste" or resentment here.

Just an honest question wonderin' if you want Hugo, Thunk, Wos, Del, TNLP, Hov, etc., and the millions more Catholics around-the-world to hold fast to all the stuff y'all's forebears slammed the door on.a


#2: BTW, the Tweet is wholly unrelated, which is the purpose of the horizontal red line separating my response to your post from the tweet.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:58 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:30 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:15 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm
… My encouragement for my Catholic brothers (if you'll accept it!) would be just a continual plea to look to Christ, which I know many of you are, and root your faith in him so that even at the lowest point you won't be led astray.
Would that include not being "led astray" from those Catholic distinctives (e.g. Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism, Purgatory, etc.) against which the Reformation took its stand on the grounds of "being led astray"?

It is your wish — your "continual plea" — that Catholics hold firm in not being led astray from adhering to these things?
[I just want to start with saying that I am currently unable to see the tweet so I have no idea what it adds to this discussion, please accept my response in that light.]

As my attempt at encouragement wasn't aimed towards you, I can imagine it only leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

I see parallels in Roman Catholicism with what has happened and what is happening in my own tradition; namely a crafty leftist turn. I sympathize with those who see it for what it is, who lament it, and who are essentially powerless to do anything about it. I'm encouraging in the way that I find encouragement in the situations I'm familiar with.

My encouragement is to look to Christ isn't loaded. If Christ is for his Church, if he's the Shepherd of the Flock and Husband of the Bride, then He'll see Her through and will wash her white as snow, even if She is currently spotted and stained. That's the whole of my encouragement. Cling to Christ. He is our hope! I don't believe he's just the hope for Protestants, and my encouragement isn't an attempt to dupe. You all know where I stand. Insofar as Christ has done and will do all that he promises he will do, I'm just encouraging the discouraged to cling to our faithful Lord.

If Christ in the anchor, the ship will come through. If Christ is our root, the tree will not break. If Christ is our Light, we will not be led astray.
#1: Never thought it was "loaded". No "sour taste" or resentment here.

Just an honest question wonderin' if you want Hugo, Thunk, Wos, Del, and millions-more-around-the-world to hold fast to all the the stuff y'all's forebears slammed the door on.
I know you probably didn't take it this way, but just for my conscience, I didn't mean to imply that the encouragement wasn't for you. Of course I'd give that encouragement to any Christian, but it was directed toward hugo and those who I see are being discouraged. My assumption that it might sour was based on the thought that their discouragement was directly in opposition to your optimism. I'm glad you weren't soured though.

So more than you bargained for maybe...but I want the same thing for Hugo, Thunk, Wos, Del, and Myself. I expect when we cling to Christ that Christ gives us himself rather than confirms our theology. My hope is that in our clinging, our theology ever conforms to himself. We see as through a glass dimly now. That's not discounting the importance and need of history and theology, etc, in the here and now, but it is to say that if there is any ground, whatsoever, where people can meet, it's at the feet of our Lord. I was purposefully looking beyond 'all the stuff' on my side or your side, even if your side intrinsically links 'all the stuff' to Christ, to which I currently offer no opinion other than to say that if Christ is the substance and is truly found there, don't let my Protestant scruples stand in the way of my encouragement to look to Him. There are probably a hundred ways I've been encouraged via Catholicism in ways that would make a Catholic cringe. :lol:

(And for the record, and lest you think I'm just being ecumenically goopy, :wink: the reformers were the ones that had the door slammed in their face. The door on this side is open. The door on yer side is welded shut.)
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:04 am

tuttle wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:58 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:30 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:15 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm
… My encouragement for my Catholic brothers (if you'll accept it!) would be just a continual plea to look to Christ, which I know many of you are, and root your faith in him so that even at the lowest point you won't be led astray.
Would that include not being "led astray" from those Catholic distinctives (e.g. Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism, Purgatory, etc.) against which the Reformation took its stand on the grounds of "being led astray"?

It is your wish — your "continual plea" — that Catholics hold firm in not being led astray from adhering to these things?
[I just want to start with saying that I am currently unable to see the tweet so I have no idea what it adds to this discussion, please accept my response in that light.]

As my attempt at encouragement wasn't aimed towards you, I can imagine it only leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

I see parallels in Roman Catholicism with what has happened and what is happening in my own tradition; namely a crafty leftist turn. I sympathize with those who see it for what it is, who lament it, and who are essentially powerless to do anything about it. I'm encouraging in the way that I find encouragement in the situations I'm familiar with.

My encouragement is to look to Christ isn't loaded. If Christ is for his Church, if he's the Shepherd of the Flock and Husband of the Bride, then He'll see Her through and will wash her white as snow, even if She is currently spotted and stained. That's the whole of my encouragement. Cling to Christ. He is our hope! I don't believe he's just the hope for Protestants, and my encouragement isn't an attempt to dupe. You all know where I stand. Insofar as Christ has done and will do all that he promises he will do, I'm just encouraging the discouraged to cling to our faithful Lord.

If Christ in the anchor, the ship will come through. If Christ is our root, the tree will not break. If Christ is our Light, we will not be led astray.
#1: Never thought it was "loaded". No "sour taste" or resentment here.

Just an honest question wonderin' if you want Hugo, Thunk, Wos, Del, and millions-more-around-the-world to hold fast to all the the stuff y'all's forebears slammed the door on.
I know you probably didn't take it this way, but just for my conscience, I didn't mean to imply that the encouragement wasn't for you. Of course I'd give that encouragement to any Christian, but it was directed toward hugo and those who I see are being discouraged. My assumption that it might sour was based on the thought that their discouragement was directly in opposition to your optimism. I'm glad you weren't soured though.

So more than you bargained for maybe...but I want the same thing for Hugo, Thunk, Wos, Del, and Myself. I expect when we cling to Christ that Christ gives us himself rather than confirms our theology. My hope is that in our clinging, our theology ever conforms to himself. We see as through a glass dimly now. That's not discounting the importance and need of history and theology, etc, in the here and now, but it is to say that if there is any ground, whatsoever, where people can meet, it's at the feet of our Lord. I was purposefully looking beyond 'all the stuff' on my side or your side, even if your side intrinsically links 'all the stuff' to Christ, to which I currently offer no opinion other than to say that if Christ is the substance and is truly found there, don't let my Protestant scruples stand in the way of my encouragement to look to Him. There are probably a hundred ways I've been encouraged via Catholicism in ways that would make a Catholic cringe. :lol:

(And for the record, and lest you think I'm just being ecumenically goopy, :wink: the reformers were the ones that had the door slammed in their face. The door on this side is open. The door on yer side is welded shut.)
For the record, I think you are both assholes. The interesting thing is that you are mirror image assholes.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Jester » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:15 am

hugodrax wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:04 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:58 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:30 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:15 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm
… My encouragement for my Catholic brothers (if you'll accept it!) would be just a continual plea to look to Christ, which I know many of you are, and root your faith in him so that even at the lowest point you won't be led astray.
Would that include not being "led astray" from those Catholic distinctives (e.g. Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism, Purgatory, etc.) against which the Reformation took its stand on the grounds of "being led astray"?

It is your wish — your "continual plea" — that Catholics hold firm in not being led astray from adhering to these things?
[I just want to start with saying that I am currently unable to see the tweet so I have no idea what it adds to this discussion, please accept my response in that light.]

As my attempt at encouragement wasn't aimed towards you, I can imagine it only leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

I see parallels in Roman Catholicism with what has happened and what is happening in my own tradition; namely a crafty leftist turn. I sympathize with those who see it for what it is, who lament it, and who are essentially powerless to do anything about it. I'm encouraging in the way that I find encouragement in the situations I'm familiar with.

My encouragement is to look to Christ isn't loaded. If Christ is for his Church, if he's the Shepherd of the Flock and Husband of the Bride, then He'll see Her through and will wash her white as snow, even if She is currently spotted and stained. That's the whole of my encouragement. Cling to Christ. He is our hope! I don't believe he's just the hope for Protestants, and my encouragement isn't an attempt to dupe. You all know where I stand. Insofar as Christ has done and will do all that he promises he will do, I'm just encouraging the discouraged to cling to our faithful Lord.

If Christ in the anchor, the ship will come through. If Christ is our root, the tree will not break. If Christ is our Light, we will not be led astray.
#1: Never thought it was "loaded". No "sour taste" or resentment here.

Just an honest question wonderin' if you want Hugo, Thunk, Wos, Del, and millions-more-around-the-world to hold fast to all the the stuff y'all's forebears slammed the door on.
I know you probably didn't take it this way, but just for my conscience, I didn't mean to imply that the encouragement wasn't for you. Of course I'd give that encouragement to any Christian, but it was directed toward hugo and those who I see are being discouraged. My assumption that it might sour was based on the thought that their discouragement was directly in opposition to your optimism. I'm glad you weren't soured though.

So more than you bargained for maybe...but I want the same thing for Hugo, Thunk, Wos, Del, and Myself. I expect when we cling to Christ that Christ gives us himself rather than confirms our theology. My hope is that in our clinging, our theology ever conforms to himself. We see as through a glass dimly now. That's not discounting the importance and need of history and theology, etc, in the here and now, but it is to say that if there is any ground, whatsoever, where people can meet, it's at the feet of our Lord. I was purposefully looking beyond 'all the stuff' on my side or your side, even if your side intrinsically links 'all the stuff' to Christ, to which I currently offer no opinion other than to say that if Christ is the substance and is truly found there, don't let my Protestant scruples stand in the way of my encouragement to look to Him. There are probably a hundred ways I've been encouraged via Catholicism in ways that would make a Catholic cringe. :lol:

(And for the record, and lest you think I'm just being ecumenically goopy, :wink: the reformers were the ones that had the door slammed in their face. The door on this side is open. The door on yer side is welded shut.)
For the record, I think you are both assholes. The interesting thing is that you are mirror image assholes.
Terrible thing to gaze at in the mirror. I assume.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:16 am

+JMJ+

Communion in the American Church 'is already fractured' [Interview]
Image
Pope Francis during the General audience, St. Peter's Square, Vatican City, Sept. 11. (Photo by PHOTOSHOT/MAXPPP)

Pope Francis says he is not 'afraid of schisms' — Massimo Faggioli thinks the prospect of a crack is very real.

For historian Massimo Faggioli, professor of religious studies at the University of Villanova and a regular columnist for La Croix International, the Catholic Church in the United States is already in a "para-schismatic" situation.

La Croix: Is the risk of schism real, in your opinion, in the United States?

Massimo Faggioli: No, if we consider it in the canonical sense of the Middle Ages, that of the creation of a parallel Church, which would be led by an American anti-pope, I don't think so.

But history has known schisms of different types and the risk seems to me that, in reality, the Catholic Church in the United States is deeply divided and the internal communion is already fractured. The United States, in a way, is already in a para-schismatic situation.

Every American Catholic knows that within the same diocese he will find very different parishes, with very different practices and homilies. It has always been this way, but it has become more so with Francis because he has provoked strong reactions.

Intellectuals and personalities from the world of finance and the media openly undermine his legitimacy.

Thus, beyond the only specific case of Cardinal [Raymond] Burke, who is a Cardinal of the Curia, bishops in the United States, such as recently that of one in Tyler, Texas, are taking public positions in which they affirm that the pope is completely wrong on a number of issues.

A year ago more than 20 of them supported the former nuncio in Washington, Bishop Carlo Maria Viganò, when he called for the Pope's resignation on the grounds that he was an accomplice to criminals.

But was criticizing the pope schismatic?

The problem is not criticism, which is legitimate and must have its place in the Church.
After the Second Vatican Council, many Catholics strongly criticized Paul VI's positions on women, as expressed in the encyclical Humanae Vitae.

But they never accused him of being a heretic or questioned his legitimacy as pope or the legitimacy of the conclave.

What is new, however, is that some circles in the United States are now openly accusing this pope of being at the very edge of heresy, if not beyond.

[…]

In the mentality of some U.S. Catholics, it was a shock that a Latin American Jesuit could be Pope — and it still is, on the one hand, because in the United States, there is a certain anti-Jesuitism and on the other hand, because in Francis' eyes, the United States is not the center of the world but a country like any other.

Basically, even when Francis quotes the exact words of John Paul II or Benedict XVI, from the moment it comes out of his mouth, it is immediately perceived as coming from a dangerous pope, who has an unorthodox idea of Catholicism.

For us Europeans, this pope is a little different from the others. For some U.S. Catholics, he is the opposite of his predecessors.

[…]

Is the pope being overly dramatic when he speaks of a schism?

I don't think so. He is just putting into words what already exists. Nicolas Senèze's book — How America Wants to Change the Pope (Bayard) — documented the situation, it did not create it.

The Pope is simply calling for responsibility: not only among bishops, but from all those who have power in the Church — intellectuals, financiers, journalists etc.

Francis does not want to prevent a process but to reverse one that began several years ago. I have traveled to many countries but I have not seen another Church so divided.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:29 am

Jester wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:15 am
hugodrax wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:04 am
tuttle wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:58 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:30 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:15 am
wosbald wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:58 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:30 pm
… My encouragement for my Catholic brothers (if you'll accept it!) would be just a continual plea to look to Christ, which I know many of you are, and root your faith in him so that even at the lowest point you won't be led astray.
Would that include not being "led astray" from those Catholic distinctives (e.g. Sacerdoto-Sacramentalism, Purgatory, etc.) against which the Reformation took its stand on the grounds of "being led astray"?

It is your wish — your "continual plea" — that Catholics hold firm in not being led astray from adhering to these things?
[I just want to start with saying that I am currently unable to see the tweet so I have no idea what it adds to this discussion, please accept my response in that light.]

As my attempt at encouragement wasn't aimed towards you, I can imagine it only leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

I see parallels in Roman Catholicism with what has happened and what is happening in my own tradition; namely a crafty leftist turn. I sympathize with those who see it for what it is, who lament it, and who are essentially powerless to do anything about it. I'm encouraging in the way that I find encouragement in the situations I'm familiar with.

My encouragement is to look to Christ isn't loaded. If Christ is for his Church, if he's the Shepherd of the Flock and Husband of the Bride, then He'll see Her through and will wash her white as snow, even if She is currently spotted and stained. That's the whole of my encouragement. Cling to Christ. He is our hope! I don't believe he's just the hope for Protestants, and my encouragement isn't an attempt to dupe. You all know where I stand. Insofar as Christ has done and will do all that he promises he will do, I'm just encouraging the discouraged to cling to our faithful Lord.

If Christ in the anchor, the ship will come through. If Christ is our root, the tree will not break. If Christ is our Light, we will not be led astray.
#1: Never thought it was "loaded". No "sour taste" or resentment here.

Just an honest question wonderin' if you want Hugo, Thunk, Wos, Del, and millions-more-around-the-world to hold fast to all the the stuff y'all's forebears slammed the door on.
I know you probably didn't take it this way, but just for my conscience, I didn't mean to imply that the encouragement wasn't for you. Of course I'd give that encouragement to any Christian, but it was directed toward hugo and those who I see are being discouraged. My assumption that it might sour was based on the thought that their discouragement was directly in opposition to your optimism. I'm glad you weren't soured though.

So more than you bargained for maybe...but I want the same thing for Hugo, Thunk, Wos, Del, and Myself. I expect when we cling to Christ that Christ gives us himself rather than confirms our theology. My hope is that in our clinging, our theology ever conforms to himself. We see as through a glass dimly now. That's not discounting the importance and need of history and theology, etc, in the here and now, but it is to say that if there is any ground, whatsoever, where people can meet, it's at the feet of our Lord. I was purposefully looking beyond 'all the stuff' on my side or your side, even if your side intrinsically links 'all the stuff' to Christ, to which I currently offer no opinion other than to say that if Christ is the substance and is truly found there, don't let my Protestant scruples stand in the way of my encouragement to look to Him. There are probably a hundred ways I've been encouraged via Catholicism in ways that would make a Catholic cringe. :lol:

(And for the record, and lest you think I'm just being ecumenically goopy, :wink: the reformers were the ones that had the door slammed in their face. The door on this side is open. The door on yer side is welded shut.)
For the record, I think you are both assholes. The interesting thing is that you are mirror image assholes.
Terrible thing to gaze at in the mirror. I assume.
Some asshole wrote:"When you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:15 pm

“turtle” wrote:My encouragement is to look to Christ isn't loaded. If Christ is for his Church, if he's the Shepherd of the Flock and Husband of the Bride, then He'll see Her through and will wash her white as snow, even if She is currently spotted and stained. That's the whole of my encouragement. Cling to Christ. He is our hope! I don't believe he's just the hope for Protestants, and my encouragement isn't an attempt to dupe. You all know where I stand. Insofar as Christ has done and will do all that he promises he will do, I'm just encouraging the discouraged to cling to our faithful Lord.

If Christ in the anchor, the ship will come through. If Christ is our root, the tree will not break. If Christ is our Light, we will not be led astray.
I have no idea why the name calling was being handed out above between a few fellas above, but I just wanted to:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:14 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:15 pm
“turtle” wrote:My encouragement is to look to Christ isn't loaded. If Christ is for his Church, if he's the Shepherd of the Flock and Husband of the Bride, then He'll see Her through and will wash her white as snow, even if She is currently spotted and stained. That's the whole of my encouragement. Cling to Christ. He is our hope! I don't believe he's just the hope for Protestants, and my encouragement isn't an attempt to dupe. You all know where I stand. Insofar as Christ has done and will do all that he promises he will do, I'm just encouraging the discouraged to cling to our faithful Lord.

If Christ in the anchor, the ship will come through. If Christ is our root, the tree will not break. If Christ is our Light, we will not be led astray.
I have no idea why the name calling was being handed out above between a few fellas above, but I just wanted to:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Eh, in my world, that's a term of endearment. They think similarly but come from opposite traditions. It's interesting to watch.

If I offended, my apologies. I love them both.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:52 pm

+JMJ+

Crusaders Burke & Schneider fear creeping Pantheism! [In-Depth, Opinion]
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Levi Ponce, “Luminaries of Pantheism” (Source: Creative Com­mons)

Another day, another list of heresies from Cardinal Burke and Archbishop Schneider (B/S). This one, eight pages long and entitled “A CRUSADE!!! of Prayer and Fasting” (because it must be couched in the imagery of warfare, I suppose), is aimed at the working document (WD) for the Amazon Synod. (And I point out here that a working document is a working document, not a teaching document. There has been no synod yet.) Burke & Schneider call for Catholics to spend forty days in a “CRUSADE!!! of prayer and fasting.” Well, sure: Prayer and fasting are good things; I encourage that. But the list of six heresies they imagine are at stake and require prayer and fasting to combat are rather extravagant:
  • Implicit pantheism!
  • Pagan superstitions as sources of Divine Revelation and alternative pathways for salvation!
  • Intercultural dialogue instead of evangelization!
  • An erroneous conception of sacramental ordination, postulating worship ministers of either sex to perform even shamanic rituals!
  • An “integral ecology” that downgrades human dignity!
  • A tribal collectivism that undermines personal uniqueness and freedom!
Well, sure. Okay. Let’s wade through all this; I suppose we must. At least B & S point us to specific passages in the working document where they find these outrages upon all Christendom. That’s a help. The “filial correctors” didn’t bother to do so much.

I’ll take up the charge of “pantheism” in this post, and then go one post at a time through the others — like as before.

================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================

Incidentally, it helps to know what “pantheism” actually is:

Incidentally, it helps to know

“Pantheism is the belief that reality is identical with divinity, or that all-things compose an all-encompassing, immanent god. Pantheist belief does not recognize a distinct personal god, anthropomorphic or otherwise.” Everything is deity; deity is impersonal: That’s the definition I’ll be working with here.

================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================

From the B/S “CRUSADE!!!”:

“The Instrumentum Laboris promotes a pagan socialization of ‘Mother Earth,’ based on a cosmology of the Amazonian tribes that is implicitly pantheistic.”

[…]

B & S go on to quote St. John Paul II, who warned against replacing “personal responsibility to God” with a “responsibility to the cosmos.” That’s true, but I’d make two points here. One, the fact that we have a responsibility to God does not mean that we do not have a responsibility to the creation, any more than it means that I don’t have a responsibility to my spouse or my children or my boss. And two, the WD speaks in many places about our responsibility to God.
  • In WD 17, we are told that we are God’s creatures and the earth is God’s creation. (That is to say, it is not itself God. This is a denial, not an assertion, of pantheism.)
  • In WD 39, we are told we have a responsibility before God to love all human beings
  • In WD 50, we are told again that God made the creation. (He is not himself the creation; this again is a denial, not an assertion, of pantheism.)
  • In WD 100, we are told we have a responsibility to God to proclaim the Gospel and renounce sin. WD 100 also says that the whole of creation is redeemed by Christ.
  • In WD 103, we are told that personal conversion is one of our responsibilities to God.
  • In WD 114, we are told we are God’s people and we belong primarily to him.
Dear reader, do you know how I found all that? I did a keyword search for “God.” See how easy it is?

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:06 am

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Inter-Thread Trackback: pg 99



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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:01 am

+JMJ+


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:19 pm

+JMJ+

Inter-Thread Trackbacks: pg 99 / pg 99









ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:56 pm

+JMJ+


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:05 am

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Resistance amps up as Amazon synod approaches
Image
A man attends Pope Francis's meeting with people of the Amazon in Puerto Maldonado, Peru, Jan. 19, 2018. (Credit: Paul Haring/CNS)

ROME — In his six years in office, Pope Francis has been no stranger to controversy or resistance both inside the Vatican and beyond its walls, yet judging by the all-star lineup of opponents to his coming Synod of Bishops on the Amazon, the gathering is shaping up to be one of his most controversial initiatives since the 2014-2015 Synod of Bishops on the Family.

Titled “New Paths for the Church and for an Integral Ecology,” the Oct. 6-27 synod will draw some 300 Catholic leaders from the Pan-Amazonian region to discuss issues including the rights of indigenous populations, land rights, migration, corruption, the Church’s missionary efforts in the area, local liturgy and sustainable development.

Francis’s allies have praised the initiative as a heroic effort to give voice to marginalized indigenous communities in the region, and to shed light on environmental abuse and protections in a region housing the largest collection of biodiversity on the planet.

[…]

However, this sentiment is not shared by everyone, as is evidenced by the fact that at least four different counter events have been organized by key Francis opponents.

On Sept. 17 two of Francis’s most vocal critics — Auxiliary Bishop Athanasius Schneider of Astana, Kazakhstan and American Cardinal Raymond Burke — launched a campaign of prayer and fasting in a bid to ensure that “error and heresy don’t pervert the imminent Synod of Bishops for the Amazon Region.”

The initiative is slated to last 40 days, until the close of the synod on Oct. 27.

(As a side note, also on Sept. 17 a key Francis ally and advisor, Italian Jesuit Father Antonio Spadaro, released a book in favor of the synod titled, Why a Synod for the Amazon? New Paths for the Church and for an Integral Ecology. The book was presented to the press at the headquarters of the Vatican’s communications department).

On Oct. 4, two days before the synod opens, a conservative group called “Voice of the Family” will host a roundtable discussion in Rome titled, “Our Church – Reformed or Deformed?” The roster of speakers and participants includes major English-speaking Francis critics John Henry Westen of LifeSite News and Michael Voris of Church Militant.

A day later, on Oct. 5, a separate symposium is being organized by conservative and traditionalist Catholics called, “The Truth about the Amazon,” indicating that in their view, truth won’t come up in the synod hall.

That same day Catholics opposed to the synod are schedule to hold a large public “prayer for the Church” near Castel Sant’Angelo, just a stone’s throw from the Vatican walls.

[…]

However, as fires in Brazil continue to burn up swaths of the Amazon forest and indigenous communities launch increased protests against Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro over policies they say infringe on their rights, Francis supporters argue that the synod is more urgent than ever.

Whether the Amazon synod ends up creating the same hype that came out his 2014-2015 Synods of Bishops on the Family is yet to be seen, however, judging by the furor already present in the lead up to this year’s discussion, one might do well to prepare more for tidal waves than calm waters.

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:51 am

An awful lot of fussing over a special synod with rather limited authority in itself in or outside the Amazon. It’s one thing to argue against the thoughts of the special synod from afar, it’s another to try wrestle control over it and the Papacy.

Next thing C Burke might do is pull a Marx and hold a synod of his own authority.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:59 pm

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Intra-Thread Trackback: pg 98 / pg 99





Referenced Herder Article (via Google Translate)

The Secrecy of Correspondence [In-Depth]
Image
© KNA Image / Christian Gennari

Until now it was unknown how the letter of Pope Francis to the Germans was written. Now comes out: The idea was born at a secret meeting of senior cardinals in the Vatican. The preparation of the text also involved a German theologian.

When Pope Francis wants to speak to a confidant, he does not need couriers or anteroom, but simply picks up his telephone receiver and calls personally. So it came about that this June in the private residence of the German Cardinal Walter Kasper in Rome the telephone rang and Francis answered. It was about Germany. The Pope had something unusual in mind — and the Cardinal should help him with it. Maybe Kasper could come to see him in the Vatican in the next few days, in the Casa Santa Marta?

Only a few weeks after the Pope's call, more precisely on 29 June, the Solemnity of Peter and Paul, a document appeared in Germany that has not existed in this form for decades, if ever: In a letter to all the faithful of the Landes, to "the pilgrim people of God", the pope commented on the situation of the church in Germany. Normally, a pope does not even do that when he is dealing with a German, which is what happens in all jubilee years.

[…]

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"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:27 am

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ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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