I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:09 am

wosbald wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:31 pm
+JMJ+

Paganism in the Vatican? Hermeneutic of suspicion at its peak [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image

On Friday, October 4th, a ceremony took place in Vatican gardens in preparation for the Synod on the Amazon. This ceremony was not organized by the Vatican itself, but by the Order of Friars Minor, the Global Catholic Climate Movement, and the Pan-Amazonian Ecclesial Network. [url=Here is Vatican’s press release[/url] issued before the ceremony. A video of the entire service can be seen below.



The high point of the ceremony, as the Vatican press release shows, was the planting of a holm tree from Assisi (see video from 1:03:00 to 1:09:00,) as “a visible sign of integral ecology” and to consecrate the upcoming Synod to the protection and intercession of St. Francis. There was also prayer and preaching, as well as a very interesting and moving segment where soil from the Amazon and other places on the planet (symbolizing a host of social problems worldwide) was added to the place where the tree was going to be planted.

Papal detractors on social media have, however, chosen to focus their attention on a 5-minute segment at the beginning of the ceremony, where some indigenous leaders perform a ritual (see video from 07:00 to 12:40) that that they interpret as being pagan in origin.

Is there any truth to this claim?

The context

[…]

The alleged pagan idols

[…]

The phallic man

[…]

The appropriateness of the representation

[…]

Syncretism charges

[…]

The black ring

[…]

The Pope’s absent remarks

[…]

Conclusions

As usual, the narrative built up by the hermeneutic of suspicion does not hold up as time passes and new facts gradually dissipates it. Unfortunately, we have seen how easy it was for these hermeneuts to take a simple ceremony and create, in a few hours, an entire account of the events amenable to their worldview, which then went viral. We should expect more of this as the Amazon Synod keeps unfolding.

We cannot refute all their charges in real time; they are inevitably overwhelming. With each new commenter, new charges are raised ex nihilo as he finds something to pick on, based on his uninformed opinion of the situation, which is then readily shared uncritically by every likeminded person. Many times, the truth takes time to surface. Facts often are noticeable only after the dust settles. By then, many people will already be convinced and closed to the truth and facts as they come.

This article is based on my viewing of the entire ceremony (including my knowledge of Italian, Spanish and Portuguese) and on conversations with many people who are more knowledgeable than I on what happened. However, I am still not privy to many of the details. As a Westerner, much of the culture that shaped this ritual may have eluded me. New information may emerge that may prove some of these points wrong. I am open to being corrected, as long as this is done with primary sources and by unbiased people in search of truth, and not of validation of a preconceived ideological narrative.

I have already implied one of the main conclusions of this article: do not jump to conclusions. The hermeneutic of suspicion will intensify in the following days. Do not despair, even if the arguments shown by the catastrophists seem irrefutable. You do not need to form an opinion on everything, and you do not need to form it in real-time or very quickly. Wait for the dust to settle and try to listen to authoritative or primary sources before you decide. Most especially, be aware that there is a campaign to undermine the Holy Father, led by people who spin every single action and word of his in the worst possible way. Disinformation is bound to come to your doorstep, so proceed with caution.

My second conclusion is a plea to the media, especially Catholic media. I urge you to consider context, and to be responsible in the way you report these events. Try not to make loose associations and try not to fill the lacunae of information with assumptions, no matter how grounded you find them to be. Try to stick to what is objective (in this story, there was much on the ceremony that could have been reported and that was simply glossed over in favor of a 5-minute segment). If you find yourself to have reported some error or imprecision that may have fueled the hermeneutic of suspicion, do not be afraid to apologize or retract. If you update, do it in a noticeable fashion. It is not just the Holy Father’s reputation that is at stake, but a commitment to truth itself.

In this particular context, CNA reported that “no explanation was provided by the event organizers as to why the dance was performed (…) or what it symbolized.” I think it would be interesting to pursue this further and to try to understand the details of this ceremony and the meaning of the symbols from the people who arranged and participated in it.
So the best argument is "maybe it was just %fracking weird?" That's what those of us who don't understand Bergoglio have been saying for years. Maybe he's just kinda retarded. Wait and see.

I don't know and I don't care. Never seen any service for the Visitation, let alone one with two naked statues and one of a guy with a broken arm and a ring giving where everyone makes a circle, shimmies a little, then plants a tree in sacred dirt. You know, the Visitation. Where they all got naked and planted a tree and gave each other rings. The Visitation.

Weird s*** happens, especially at a synod of Freaks, Geeks, and those who do it like the Greeks. When it does, that's no sign of anyone's endorsement. Oddjobs are going to oddjob. What do you expect the Pope to do as a host? Send for the Swiss Guard or just quietly sit in the corner and leave as fast as he could?

No need to argue the ceremony was orthodox to defend the Pope's actions.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:07 am

+JMJ+


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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:20 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:07 am
+JMJ+

You boys tryin' to summon demons or are you all doing it on accident?

Seriously, that article needs to be read. The soundbite was scary enough. But the God is in the people, dood, like in different ways depending on the people's cultures and stuff. We've just got to go with the flow of the people, man, and they'll show the Church what it is to be a Catholic.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:39 am

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:07 am
+JMJ+

You boys tryin' to summon demons or are you all doing it on accident?

Seriously, that article needs to be read. The soundbite was scary enough. But the God is in the people, dood, like in different ways depending on the people's cultures and stuff. We've just got to go with the flow of the people, man, and they'll show the Church what it is to be a Catholic.
Talk about summoning demons! One thing I do is that when I read something from Church Militant or Life Site News and similar news sources, is take it all with a grain of salt. It’s like the deer hunter who mistakes stumps or rocks for deer. Yeah, it’s kinda like that. There’s a lot going on and I’m not even sure the Pope knows what it all means. I have witnessed him set aside a speech on one of these odd independent presentations and turn instead to recite the Lord’s Prayer. A pastor must often Listen to a lot before he can respond appropriately and effectively.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:03 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:39 am
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:20 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:07 am
+JMJ+

You boys tryin' to summon demons or are you all doing it on accident?

Seriously, that article needs to be read. The soundbite was scary enough. But the God is in the people, dood, like in different ways depending on the people's cultures and stuff. We've just got to go with the flow of the people, man, and they'll show the Church what it is to be a Catholic.
Talk about summoning demons! One thing I do is that when I read something from Church Militant or Life Site News and similar news sources, is take it all with a grain of salt. It’s like the deer hunter who mistakes stumps or rocks for deer. Yeah, it’s kinda like that. There’s a lot going on and I’m not sure even the Pope knows what it all means. I have witnessed him set aside a speech on one of these odd independent presentations and turn instead to recite the Lord’s Prayer. A pastor must often Listen to a lot before he can respond appropriately and effectively.
I think that you wrote that rather quickly and perhaps without the critical approach you so correctly recommend. One should take all news sources with a grain of salt. The article we were discussing was not in LifeSite or Church Militant, but in La Civiltà Cattolica. That’s an interesting publication, every published word of which is approved prior to publication by the Vatican. I’m going to guess you didn’t read the linked article that I was mocking, but I could be wrong and might misunderstand what you wrote.

The problem for me isn’t that a bunch of slap-happy syncretists came in to the Vatican and had a little service led by a woman in which a whole bunch of indigenous peoples and a couple of Franciscan friars prostrated themselves to two pregnant ladies and a guy with a broken arm and a boat (one can watch the video, you know), but that somebody within the Vatican thought this was a good idea. And the female-led service just happened to be recorded, with the Pope sitting there a polite prisoner, appearing to follow along. In this world of appearances, it was quite the coup for somebody.

And that somebody is not my friend, Thunktank. I remember how much you dislike being talked down to, both by myself and others. I will not be fooled into thinking that because Wosbald finally treated you politely, he no longer thinks you or I are heretics outside the bounds of church belief for questioning papal teaching. I also value civility and dislike confrontation and whether I agree or disagree, count you and Wosbald among my personal friends.

But that friendship does not change the feeling of anger I have for those that would modernize the Church of my fathers. I observe with pain that we are told again and again to use discourse and list our concerns and they will be answered, only to have our questions ignored and the charge of heresy laid at our feet. Your questions were raised politely, and the response you got was “Obey, fool, what do you know?” I do not think such open disdain and bullying can be masked by a subsequent veneer of politeness, nor that I should be so grateful for being responded to that I should be satisfied by the non-answer you received.

If I am to be excommunicated, let it be for something I believe. After all, nothing will shake my faith in what I was taught to believe, nor my disdain for the modernist revolutionaries within today’s Church. I hope nobody mistakes my anger for despair, nor my faith for unreasonableness. But I cannot sit silently and watch. This effects my children and my children’s children.

Ok. I’m off my self-righteous soapbox now. Carry on carrying on. :lol:
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Del » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:27 pm

This thread:

Hmmphf.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:12 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:03 pm
If I am to be excommunicated, let it be for something I believe. After all, nothing will shake my faith in what I was taught to believe, nor my disdain for the modernist revolutionaries within today’s Church. I hope nobody mistakes my anger for despair, nor my faith for unreasonableness. But I cannot sit silently and watch. This effects my children and my children’s children.

Ok. I’m off my self-righteous soapbox now. Carry on carrying on. :lol:
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:45 pm

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:12 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:03 pm
If I am to be excommunicated, let it be for something I believe. After all, nothing will shake my faith in what I was taught to believe, nor my disdain for the modernist revolutionaries within today’s Church. I hope nobody mistakes my anger for despair, nor my faith for unreasonableness. But I cannot sit silently and watch. This effects my children and my children’s children.

Ok. I’m off my self-righteous soapbox now. Carry on carrying on. :lol:
Image
And the horse you rode in on, Tuttle. :lol: I'm staying right where I am.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:59 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:45 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:12 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:03 pm
If I am to be excommunicated, let it be for something I believe. After all, nothing will shake my faith in what I was taught to believe, nor my disdain for the modernist revolutionaries within today’s Church. I hope nobody mistakes my anger for despair, nor my faith for unreasonableness. But I cannot sit silently and watch. This effects my children and my children’s children.

Ok. I’m off my self-righteous soapbox now. Carry on carrying on. :lol:
Image
And the horse you rode in on, Tuttle. :lol:
:lol:

I almost didn't post it, as I certainly don't mistake your anger for a creeping Protestantism...but I can't help it.







It's like I have no choice.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Jester » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:18 pm

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:59 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:45 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:12 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:03 pm
If I am to be excommunicated, let it be for something I believe. After all, nothing will shake my faith in what I was taught to believe, nor my disdain for the modernist revolutionaries within today’s Church. I hope nobody mistakes my anger for despair, nor my faith for unreasonableness. But I cannot sit silently and watch. This effects my children and my children’s children.

Ok. I’m off my self-righteous soapbox now. Carry on carrying on. :lol:
Image
And the horse you rode in on, Tuttle. :lol:
:lol:

I almost didn't post it, as I certainly don't mistake your anger for a creeping Protestantism...but I can't help it.







It's like I have no choice.
Image
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:13 pm

+JMJ+

The Power of the Half-Truth: Cardinal Müller’s Latest Statement [In-Depth, Opinion
Image
Gerhard Müller as Archbishop in 2012, by Jolanta Dyr. (Creative Commons license)

[…]

Cardinal Müller’s militancy is what makes his pronouncements at once thunderous assertions of truth and fragmented score-settling diatribes that in my opinion (as a mere layperson) work against a more nuanced and truthful understanding of Church teaching. For example, while I agree that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is probably definitive regarding the ordination of women as priests, I am troubled by Müller’s explanation for why this is definitive, since this explanation is true in part but not in whole. He writes,
It is certainly without doubt […] that this definitive decision from Pope John Paul II is indeed a dogma of the Faith of the Catholic Church and that this was of course the case already before this Pope defined this truth as contained in Revelation in the year 1994.
This suggests that one of the primary jobs of the pope is to confirm dogma that is already understood to be dogma. He explains,
When it comes to a dogma, one has to differentiate between the substantive and the formal side. The revealed truth which is being expressed in it — and whose denial is being sanctioned with an “anathema sit” or which is being pronounced “ex cathedra” by the Pope alone — does not therefore depend upon the external form of the definition.
Again, this is true in a certain sense. If the pope pronounces a doctrine or teaching to be dogmatic ex cathedra, then that dogma is true and has always been true. The problem is that definitive pronouncements are often made about issues that are in dispute — not just among ordinary Catholics but also among theologians and priests and bishops. The problem of determining what has always been true is not a simple one, especially if we do not confine ourselves to an idealized or partisan understanding of the history of Christianity. The final decision on what has always been true has to rest with some highest authority, if it is not to be a decision based on majority rule, and that highest authority is the pope in communion with the bishops. If that authority cannot be consulted, the pope himself may make a decision that while not necessarily infallible (if not spoken ex cathedra) is nevertheless binding upon the faithful. No matter how great his learning, no matter how far-ranging his experience and wisdom, it is not up to one bishop or a group of bishops alone to determine and proclaim what has always been true. And Cardinal Müller, unfortunately, has taken it upon himself to let us know what has always been true, no matter what the pope or other bishops might say. He seems to have lost all trust in the Church or pope to make this determination.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:56 pm

wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:13 pm
+JMJ+

The Power of the Half-Truth: Cardinal Müller’s Latest Statement [In-Depth, Opinion
Image
Gerhard Müller as Archbishop in 2012, by Jolanta Dyr. (Creative Commons license)

[…]

Cardinal Müller’s militancy is what makes his pronouncements at once thunderous assertions of truth and fragmented score-settling diatribes that in my opinion (as a mere layperson) work against a more nuanced and truthful understanding of Church teaching. For example, while I agree that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is probably definitive regarding the ordination of women as priests, I am troubled by Müller’s explanation for why this is definitive, since this explanation is true in part but not in whole. He writes,
It is certainly without doubt […] that this definitive decision from Pope John Paul II is indeed a dogma of the Faith of the Catholic Church and that this was of course the case already before this Pope defined this truth as contained in Revelation in the year 1994.
This suggests that one of the primary jobs of the pope is to confirm dogma that is already understood to be dogma. He explains,
When it comes to a dogma, one has to differentiate between the substantive and the formal side. The revealed truth which is being expressed in it — and whose denial is being sanctioned with an “anathema sit” or which is being pronounced “ex cathedra” by the Pope alone — does not therefore depend upon the external form of the definition.
Again, this is true in a certain sense. If the pope pronounces a doctrine or teaching to be dogmatic ex cathedra, then that dogma is true and has always been true. The problem is that definitive pronouncements are often made about issues that are in dispute — not just among ordinary Catholics but also among theologians and priests and bishops. The problem of determining what has always been true is not a simple one, especially if we do not confine ourselves to an idealized or partisan understanding of the history of Christianity. The final decision on what has always been true has to rest with some highest authority, if it is not to be a decision based on majority rule, and that highest authority is the pope in communion with the bishops. If that authority cannot be consulted, the pope himself may make a decision that while not necessarily infallible (if not spoken ex cathedra) is nevertheless binding upon the faithful. No matter how great his learning, no matter how far-ranging his experience and wisdom, it is not up to one bishop or a group of bishops alone to determine and proclaim what has always been true. And Cardinal Müller, unfortunately, has taken it upon himself to let us know what has always been true, no matter what the pope or other bishops might say. He seems to have lost all trust in the Church or pope to make this determination.

[…]
It’s amazing just how compliant the liberals have suddenly become!
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:43 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:56 pm
wosbald wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:13 pm
+JMJ+

The Power of the Half-Truth: Cardinal Müller’s Latest Statement [In-Depth, Opinion
Image
Gerhard Müller as Archbishop in 2012, by Jolanta Dyr. (Creative Commons license)

[…]

Cardinal Müller’s militancy is what makes his pronouncements at once thunderous assertions of truth and fragmented score-settling diatribes that in my opinion (as a mere layperson) work against a more nuanced and truthful understanding of Church teaching. For example, while I agree that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is probably definitive regarding the ordination of women as priests, I am troubled by Müller’s explanation for why this is definitive, since this explanation is true in part but not in whole. He writes,
It is certainly without doubt […] that this definitive decision from Pope John Paul II is indeed a dogma of the Faith of the Catholic Church and that this was of course the case already before this Pope defined this truth as contained in Revelation in the year 1994.
This suggests that one of the primary jobs of the pope is to confirm dogma that is already understood to be dogma. He explains,
When it comes to a dogma, one has to differentiate between the substantive and the formal side. The revealed truth which is being expressed in it — and whose denial is being sanctioned with an “anathema sit” or which is being pronounced “ex cathedra” by the Pope alone — does not therefore depend upon the external form of the definition.
Again, this is true in a certain sense. If the pope pronounces a doctrine or teaching to be dogmatic ex cathedra, then that dogma is true and has always been true. The problem is that definitive pronouncements are often made about issues that are in dispute — not just among ordinary Catholics but also among theologians and priests and bishops. The problem of determining what has always been true is not a simple one, especially if we do not confine ourselves to an idealized or partisan understanding of the history of Christianity. The final decision on what has always been true has to rest with some highest authority, if it is not to be a decision based on majority rule, and that highest authority is the pope in communion with the bishops. If that authority cannot be consulted, the pope himself may make a decision that while not necessarily infallible (if not spoken ex cathedra) is nevertheless binding upon the faithful. No matter how great his learning, no matter how far-ranging his experience and wisdom, it is not up to one bishop or a group of bishops alone to determine and proclaim what has always been true. And Cardinal Müller, unfortunately, has taken it upon himself to let us know what has always been true, no matter what the pope or other bishops might say. He seems to have lost all trust in the Church or pope to make this determination.

[…]
It’s amazing just how compliant the liberals have suddenly become!
And Wosbald has gathered their green wood. Have you ever seen such yearning for excommunication? Such desire to drive people out of the Church?

It makes Tuttle look like a Discalced Carmelite.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:58 pm

Here's a good one about all the pagan stuff draped over churches in Rome:

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/art ... es-in-rome

Good stuff. Very orthodox. Nothing to see here, except what they want you to see.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:01 pm

Are you fellas familiar with the Moscow-Constantinople schism of 2018? It’s serious. It’s rocking the Orthodox Church and it’s threatening to split the Orthodox Church in half. As an Eastern Catholic I feel schism in a unique way. It’s serious and it’s not funny.

I became Catholic, not because I rejected Orthodoxy, but rather because I believe it embraces it. It embraces it because it has the dignity of the chair of Saint Peter. Saint Peter was given the keys to the kingdom with the other apostles he presided in love with authority over the whole church. The dignity of every chair, from every apostle was kept by the church in defense against schism and heresy. Yet in nearly every schism it was a territory, a nation, a culture who departed from the unity of faith. And in the case of the first council of Jerusalem, a great ruckus was had over the fate of an entire group of nations that made up the gentiles.

Saint Paul vigorously defended the gentiles, even challenging St. Peter who in the end declared the Truth.

Today,
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:06 pm

Don't forget this one:

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/art ... the-amazon

Hey, the nuns are hearing confessions and performing marriages! Quick, somebody attack a conservative bishop!!

Interesting that the Vatican edited the translation. What's Cardinal Burke up to?
Last edited by hugodrax on Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:07 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:01 pm
Are you fellas familiar with the Moscow-Constantinople schism of 2018? It’s serious. It’s rocking the Orthodox Church and it’s threatening to split the Orthodox Church in half. As an Eastern Catholic I feel schism in a unique way. It’s serious and it’s not funny.

I became Catholic, not because I rejected Orthodoxy, but rather because I believe it embraces it. It embraces it because it has the dignity of the chair of Saint Peter. Saint Peter was given the keys to the kingdom with the other apostles he presided in love with authority over the whole church. The dignity of every chair, from every apostle was kept by the church in defense against schism and heresy. Yet in nearly every schism it was a territory, a nation, a culture who departed from the unity of faith. And in the case of the first council of Jerusalem, a great ruckus was had over the fate of an entire group of nations that made up the gentiles.

Saint Paul vigorously defended the gentiles, even challenging St. Peter who in the end declared the Truth.

Today,
I am and it breaks my heart. I've read what I can read and have no opinion.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Thunktank
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:21 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:07 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:01 pm
Are you fellas familiar with the Moscow-Constantinople schism of 2018? It’s serious. It’s rocking the Orthodox Church and it’s threatening to split the Orthodox Church in half. As an Eastern Catholic I feel schism in a unique way. It’s serious and it’s not funny.

I became Catholic, not because I rejected Orthodoxy, but rather because I believe it embraces it. It embraces it because it has the dignity of the chair of Saint Peter. Saint Peter was given the keys to the kingdom with the other apostles he presided in love with authority over the whole church. The dignity of every chair, from every apostle was kept by the church in defense against schism and heresy. Yet in nearly every schism it was a territory, a nation, a culture who departed from the unity of faith. And in the case of the first council of Jerusalem, a great ruckus was had over the fate of an entire group of nations that made up the gentiles.

Saint Paul vigorously defended the gentiles, even challenging St. Peter who in the end declared the Truth.

Today,
I am and it breaks my heart. I've read what I can read and have no opinion.
I don’t know what happened to the rest of that post. But anyway, I meant to say that the Catholic Church is now talking schism over this new class of gentiles found in the Amazon. I’m sure it feels a lot like how the Jewish Christians felt when they had to adjust to the Roman gentiles.

Right now I am curious as to what is happening at the synod. Some of it is concerning, yes. My Orthodox background finds the format inexplicably odd.

But I’m not worried about the bishops resisting the Pope and this synod either. They’re part of the conversation too. So no Steven, unquestioning obedience is never a part of the kingdom. Even the blessed Mother asked a question. But make no mistake. God gave us Peter. Where he is, that is where the church is.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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hugodrax
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:40 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:21 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:07 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:01 pm
Are you fellas familiar with the Moscow-Constantinople schism of 2018? It’s serious. It’s rocking the Orthodox Church and it’s threatening to split the Orthodox Church in half. As an Eastern Catholic I feel schism in a unique way. It’s serious and it’s not funny.

I became Catholic, not because I rejected Orthodoxy, but rather because I believe it embraces it. It embraces it because it has the dignity of the chair of Saint Peter. Saint Peter was given the keys to the kingdom with the other apostles he presided in love with authority over the whole church. The dignity of every chair, from every apostle was kept by the church in defense against schism and heresy. Yet in nearly every schism it was a territory, a nation, a culture who departed from the unity of faith. And in the case of the first council of Jerusalem, a great ruckus was had over the fate of an entire group of nations that made up the gentiles.

Saint Paul vigorously defended the gentiles, even challenging St. Peter who in the end declared the Truth.

Today,
I am and it breaks my heart. I've read what I can read and have no opinion.
I don’t know what happened to the rest of that post. But anyway, I meant to say that the Catholic Church is now talking schism over this new class of gentiles found in the Amazon. I’m sure it feels a lot like how the Jewish Christians felt when they had to adjust to the Roman gentiles.

Right now I am curious as to what is happening at the synod. Some of it is concerning, yes. My Orthodox background finds the format inexplicably odd.

But I’m not worried about the bishops resisting the Pope and this synod either. They’re part of the conversation too. So no Steven, unquestioning obedience is never a part of the kingdom. Even the blessed Mother asked a question. But make no mistake. God gave us Peter. Where he is, that is where the church is.
Amen.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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wosbald
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:33 pm

+JMJ+

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