I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:42 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:16 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:25 pm
He’s the Pope we deserve.
That, sir, is the issue.
Forgive me and my rant, brother. I need to keep my misplaced condemnation to myself where it belongs.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:48 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:42 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:16 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:25 pm
He’s the Pope we deserve.
That, sir, is the issue.
Forgive me and my rant, brother. I need to keep my misplaced condemnation to myself where it belongs.
:lol: No offense taken,
but it sure couldn't hurt to suppress the Jesuits one more time!
"Praise be to Mary, her child and all those with them in Paradise."---Paulus Kal

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:43 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:48 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:42 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:16 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:25 pm
He’s the Pope we deserve.
That, sir, is the issue.
Forgive me and my rant, brother. I need to keep my misplaced condemnation to myself where it belongs.
:lol: No offense taken,
but it sure couldn't hurt to suppress the Jesuits one more time!
Except the Pope is a Jesuit. He is our Holy Father. I have offended God With my above statement, no doubt. It wasn’t entirely constructive criticism I made, and that tarnished the whole thing. If I were a good Catholic I would pray for him instead of commit character assassination against him. The Jesuits are an important part of the body. Without them, the church may fall into insular cultural stagnation.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

No complaining + gratefulness= happiness

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:03 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:43 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:48 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:42 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:16 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:25 pm
He’s the Pope we deserve.
That, sir, is the issue.
Forgive me and my rant, brother. I need to keep my misplaced condemnation to myself where it belongs.
:lol: No offense taken,
but it sure couldn't hurt to suppress the Jesuits one more time!
Except the Pope is a Jesuit. He is our Holy Father. I have offended God With my above statement, no doubt. It wasn’t entirely constructive criticism I made, and that tarnished the whole thing. If I were a good Catholic I would pray for him instead of commit character assassination against him. The Jesuits are an important part of the body. Without them, the church may fall into insular cultural stagnation.
You're far too hard on yourself. We were called to be meek, but that doesnt mean we were ordered to be doormats.

It's possible to suppress the Jesuits with love, you know. :lol:
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by coco » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:10 am

"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by coco » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:11 am

"Like a gold ring in a pig's snout is a cob with a forever lucite stem." (Pipverbs 1:1)
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:30 am

+JMJ+


ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:43 am

+JMJ+

Pope calls idea of declaring Mary co-redemptrix ‘foolishness’ [In-Depth]
Image
Pope Francis presides over a Mass on the occasion of the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, in St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican, Thursday, Dec. 12, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia)

ROME — Pope Francis appeared to flatly reject proposals in some theological circles to add “co-redemptrix” to the list of titles of the Virgin Mary, saying the mother of Jesus never took anything that belonged to her son, and calling the invention of new titles and dogmas “foolishness.”

“She never wanted for herself something that was of her son,” Francis said. “She never introduced herself as co-redemptrix. No. Disciple,” he said, meaning that Mary saw herself as a disciple of Jesus.

Mary, the pope insisted, “never stole for herself anything that was of her son,” instead “serving him. Because she is mother. She gives life.”

“When they come to us with the story of declaring her this or making that dogma, let’s not get lost in foolishness [in Spanish, tonteras],” he said.

Francis’s words, delivered in Spanish, came while celebrating a Thursday evening Mass in Rome for the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

The title of Mary as “co-redemptrix” dates to the Middle Ages, and the idea of declaring it as a church dogma was discussed, though not adopted, at the Second Vatican Council. In the 1990s American Catholic theologian Mark Miravalle launched a petition asking the pope to make such a declaration, and today the “co-redemptrix” devotion tends to be strongest among more conservative Catholics.

What Francis said Thursday is in line with Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican’s doctrinal chief during most of St. John Paul II’ papacy, and now Pope emeritus Benedict XVI.

Speaking with Peter Seewald for the book-length interview published as God and the World: A Conversation, the then cardinal said: “The formula ‘co-redemptrix’ departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers, and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.”

“Everything comes from Him [Christ], as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him,” Ratzinger said. “The word ‘co-redemptrix’ would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way.”

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:19 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:43 am
+JMJ+

Pope calls idea of declaring Mary co-redemptrix ‘foolishness’ [In-Depth]
Image
Pope Francis presides over a Mass on the occasion of the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, in St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican, Thursday, Dec. 12, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia)

ROME — Pope Francis appeared to flatly reject proposals in some theological circles to add “co-redemptrix” to the list of titles of the Virgin Mary, saying the mother of Jesus never took anything that belonged to her son, and calling the invention of new titles and dogmas “foolishness.”

“She never wanted for herself something that was of her son,” Francis said. “She never introduced herself as co-redemptrix. No. Disciple,” he said, meaning that Mary saw herself as a disciple of Jesus.

Mary, the pope insisted, “never stole for herself anything that was of her son,” instead “serving him. Because she is mother. She gives life.”

“When they come to us with the story of declaring her this or making that dogma, let’s not get lost in foolishness [in Spanish, tonteras],” he said.

Francis’s words, delivered in Spanish, came while celebrating a Thursday evening Mass in Rome for the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

The title of Mary as “co-redemptrix” dates to the Middle Ages, and the idea of declaring it as a church dogma was discussed, though not adopted, at the Second Vatican Council. In the 1990s American Catholic theologian Mark Miravalle launched a petition asking the pope to make such a declaration, and today the “co-redemptrix” devotion tends to be strongest among more conservative Catholics.

What Francis said Thursday is in line with Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican’s doctrinal chief during most of St. John Paul II’ papacy, and now Pope emeritus Benedict XVI.

Speaking with Peter Seewald for the book-length interview published as God and the World: A Conversation, the then cardinal said: “The formula ‘co-redemptrix’ departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers, and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.”

“Everything comes from Him [Christ], as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him,” Ratzinger said. “The word ‘co-redemptrix’ would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way.”

[…]
Good. Now why couldn’t he have spoken with such clarity against “Pachamama” veneration? That would have been nice.
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:31 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:43 am
+JMJ+

Pope calls idea of declaring Mary co-redemptrix ‘foolishness’ [In-Depth]
Image
Pope Francis presides over a Mass on the occasion of the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, in St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican, Thursday, Dec. 12, 2019. (Credit: AP Photo/Gregorio Borgia)

ROME — Pope Francis appeared to flatly reject proposals in some theological circles to add “co-redemptrix” to the list of titles of the Virgin Mary, saying the mother of Jesus never took anything that belonged to her son, and calling the invention of new titles and dogmas “foolishness.”

“She never wanted for herself something that was of her son,” Francis said. “She never introduced herself as co-redemptrix. No. Disciple,” he said, meaning that Mary saw herself as a disciple of Jesus.

Mary, the pope insisted, “never stole for herself anything that was of her son,” instead “serving him. Because she is mother. She gives life.”

“When they come to us with the story of declaring her this or making that dogma, let’s not get lost in foolishness [in Spanish, tonteras],” he said.

Francis’s words, delivered in Spanish, came while celebrating a Thursday evening Mass in Rome for the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

The title of Mary as “co-redemptrix” dates to the Middle Ages, and the idea of declaring it as a church dogma was discussed, though not adopted, at the Second Vatican Council. In the 1990s American Catholic theologian Mark Miravalle launched a petition asking the pope to make such a declaration, and today the “co-redemptrix” devotion tends to be strongest among more conservative Catholics.

What Francis said Thursday is in line with Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican’s doctrinal chief during most of St. John Paul II’ papacy, and now Pope emeritus Benedict XVI.

Speaking with Peter Seewald for the book-length interview published as God and the World: A Conversation, the then cardinal said: “The formula ‘co-redemptrix’ departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers, and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings.”

“Everything comes from Him [Christ], as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him,” Ratzinger said. “The word ‘co-redemptrix’ would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way.”

[…]
:chili:
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:00 pm

+JMJ+

Pope St. John Paul II Respectfully Referred to Pachamama
Image

Image
Photo credit: Alice Popkorn: “Mother Earth” (Flickr / CC BY 2.0 license)

+ Orthodox Catholic References to “Mother Earth” and Similar Biblical Motifs

Many thanks to Francisco Figueroa, who discovered this in a homily dated 5-11-88 (in Spanish), delivered in Bolivia, in the Valley of Cochabamba. This was Francisco’s translation of the Spanish. My friend, Dr. Robert Fastiggi, a systematic theologian, sent me a personal letter, stating, “I checked the Spanish original, and the passage from JPII is accurate.” Pope St. John Paul II’s words follow below.
Blessed is he who, in any work, seeks God from the heart. Blessed is he who, in the exercise of any profession, seeks the good of others.

I want to address now, from this land of Cochabamba, peasant par excellence, to you, Quechua peasants, men of the “bronze lineage”, who from time immemorial populate these valleys and are at the roots of Bolivian nationality; that you have given to the world your nutritional and medicinal findings such as potatoes, corn and quinoa. The Lord continues to accompany your work with His help. He takes care of the birds of the sky, of the lilies that are born in the field, of the grass that sprouts from the earth (Mt 6, 26-30). This is the work of God, who knows that we need the food that the earth produces, that varied and expressive reality that your ancestors called the “Pachamama” and that reflects the work of divine Providence by offering us His gifts for the good of man.

Such is the deep meaning of the presence of God that you must find in your relationship with the earth, which covers for you the territory, the water, the stream, the hill, the hillside, the creek, the animals, the plants and the trees, because earth is all the work of creation that God has given us. Therefore, when contemplating the earth, the crops that grow, the plants that mature and the animals that are born, raise your thoughts to the God of the heights, the creator God of the universe, who has manifested to us in Christ Jesus, our Brother and Savior. That way you can reach Him, glorify Him and thank Him. “Because the invisible of God, since the creation of the world, [His] intelligence is revealed through his works” (Rm 1:20).

“Blessed is he who … rightly administers his affairs; the righteous will never falter ”(Ps 112 [111], 5-6). Blessed is he who strives in his work, despite the difficulties of the environment. Blessed is he who seeks to build the civilization of love with his work.
[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:17 pm

wosbald wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:00 pm
+JMJ+

Pope St. John Paul II Respectfully Referred to Pachamama
Image

Image
Photo credit: Alice Popkorn: “Mother Earth” (Flickr / CC BY 2.0 license)

+ Orthodox Catholic References to “Mother Earth” and Similar Biblical Motifs

Many thanks to Francisco Figueroa, who discovered this in a homily dated 5-11-88 (in Spanish), delivered in Bolivia, in the Valley of Cochabamba. This was Francisco’s translation of the Spanish. My friend, Dr. Robert Fastiggi, a systematic theologian, sent me a personal letter, stating, “I checked the Spanish original, and the passage from JPII is accurate.” Pope St. John Paul II’s words follow below.
Blessed is he who, in any work, seeks God from the heart. Blessed is he who, in the exercise of any profession, seeks the good of others.

I want to address now, from this land of Cochabamba, peasant par excellence, to you, Quechua peasants, men of the “bronze lineage”, who from time immemorial populate these valleys and are at the roots of Bolivian nationality; that you have given to the world your nutritional and medicinal findings such as potatoes, corn and quinoa. The Lord continues to accompany your work with His help. He takes care of the birds of the sky, of the lilies that are born in the field, of the grass that sprouts from the earth (Mt 6, 26-30). This is the work of God, who knows that we need the food that the earth produces, that varied and expressive reality that your ancestors called the “Pachamama” and that reflects the work of divine Providence by offering us His gifts for the good of man.

Such is the deep meaning of the presence of God that you must find in your relationship with the earth, which covers for you the territory, the water, the stream, the hill, the hillside, the creek, the animals, the plants and the trees, because earth is all the work of creation that God has given us. Therefore, when contemplating the earth, the crops that grow, the plants that mature and the animals that are born, raise your thoughts to the God of the heights, the creator God of the universe, who has manifested to us in Christ Jesus, our Brother and Savior. That way you can reach Him, glorify Him and thank Him. “Because the invisible of God, since the creation of the world, [His] intelligence is revealed through his works” (Rm 1:20).

“Blessed is he who … rightly administers his affairs; the righteous will never falter ”(Ps 112 [111], 5-6). Blessed is he who strives in his work, despite the difficulties of the environment. Blessed is he who seeks to build the civilization of love with his work.
[…]
Pachamama is a fertility godess, that is widely understood---there are a bunch of 'em from all over the world--- and fertility is a gift from God, but pagan idols are not God, nor are they Marian. The Blessed Virgin points to Christ, containing with in her he who cannot be contained, and that's pretty darned slick medieval or otherwise.
She didn't give birth to Quinoa or any other crop and the pagan godess Pachymama didn't either.
If Augustine were here, he'd likely suppress the Jesuits
"Praise be to Mary, her child and all those with them in Paradise."---Paulus Kal

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:13 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:17 pm
wosbald wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:00 pm
+JMJ+

Pope St. John Paul II Respectfully Referred to Pachamama
Image

Image
Photo credit: Alice Popkorn: “Mother Earth” (Flickr / CC BY 2.0 license)

+ Orthodox Catholic References to “Mother Earth” and Similar Biblical Motifs

Many thanks to Francisco Figueroa, who discovered this in a homily dated 5-11-88 (in Spanish), delivered in Bolivia, in the Valley of Cochabamba. This was Francisco’s translation of the Spanish. My friend, Dr. Robert Fastiggi, a systematic theologian, sent me a personal letter, stating, “I checked the Spanish original, and the passage from JPII is accurate.” Pope St. John Paul II’s words follow below.
Blessed is he who, in any work, seeks God from the heart. Blessed is he who, in the exercise of any profession, seeks the good of others.

I want to address now, from this land of Cochabamba, peasant par excellence, to you, Quechua peasants, men of the “bronze lineage”, who from time immemorial populate these valleys and are at the roots of Bolivian nationality; that you have given to the world your nutritional and medicinal findings such as potatoes, corn and quinoa. The Lord continues to accompany your work with His help. He takes care of the birds of the sky, of the lilies that are born in the field, of the grass that sprouts from the earth (Mt 6, 26-30). This is the work of God, who knows that we need the food that the earth produces, that varied and expressive reality that your ancestors called the “Pachamama” and that reflects the work of divine Providence by offering us His gifts for the good of man.

Such is the deep meaning of the presence of God that you must find in your relationship with the earth, which covers for you the territory, the water, the stream, the hill, the hillside, the creek, the animals, the plants and the trees, because earth is all the work of creation that God has given us. Therefore, when contemplating the earth, the crops that grow, the plants that mature and the animals that are born, raise your thoughts to the God of the heights, the creator God of the universe, who has manifested to us in Christ Jesus, our Brother and Savior. That way you can reach Him, glorify Him and thank Him. “Because the invisible of God, since the creation of the world, [His] intelligence is revealed through his works” (Rm 1:20).

“Blessed is he who … rightly administers his affairs; the righteous will never falter ”(Ps 112 [111], 5-6). Blessed is he who strives in his work, despite the difficulties of the environment. Blessed is he who seeks to build the civilization of love with his work.
[…]
Pachamama is a fertility godess, that is widely understood---there are a bunch of 'em from all over the world--- and fertility is a gift from God, but pagan idols are not God, nor are they Marian. The Blessed Virgin points to Christ, containing with in her he who cannot be contained, and that's pretty darned slick medieval or otherwise.
She didn't give birth to Quinoa or any other crop and the pagan godess Pachymama didn't either.
If Augustine were here, he'd likely suppress the Jesuits
And St. Nicholas would f*** them up.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:20 pm

+JMJ+

Why Greta, not Boris, may be the right way to assess Francis’s political impact [In-Depth, Analysis]
Image
Pope Francis salutes at the end of an audience with representatives of the popular movements at the Vatican Saturday, Nov. 5, 2016. (Credit: L'Osservatore Romano/Pool Photo via AP)

[…]

First for the apparently unrelated events: Boris Johnson and Greta Thunberg.

[…]

Speaking to reporters at the Dec. 12 publication of Francis’s message for the 2020 World Day of Peace, celebrated on Jan. 1 each year, Cardinal Peter Turkson, prefect of the Vatican office for Integral Human Development, called Thunberg “a great witness to what the Church teaches on the care of the environment and the care of the person.”

[…]

Thunberg, of course, isn’t a politician, and her Fridays for Future movement has no power to set policy anyplace. Yet she’s become the global face of young people demanding action on climate change, inspiring countless thousands to follower her lead all over the world.

An essentially secular Swede, Thunberg premises her activism on science, not religion, and although there’s no reason to believe she got involved in the fight to curb climate change because of Francis, she’s obviously fond of the pontiff; when the two met last April, Thunberg told the pope, “Thank you for standing up for the climate and speaking the truth. It means a lot.”

For secularists long accustomed to thinking of religion as an obstacle to progress, it must indeed be a bit bewildering, but also encouraging, to know that the world’s most visible religious leader has their backs.

During the long St. John Paul II era, Vatican-watchers learned to gauge the pope’s political impact through an essentially vertical lens. John Paul shaped national and international affairs in the here-and-now, playing a key role in the collapse of Communism, shaming several Latin American police states into transitioning to democracy (as a veteran cardinal once put it, the only Latin American dictator to survive a meeting with the pope was Fidel Castro), and voicing the moral opposition to the Bush administration’s invasion of Iraq.

In truth, John Paul’s impact was always as much horizontal as vertical, because his role in bringing down the Berlin Wall began with supporting an essentially bottom-up civil protest movement in Poland called Solidarity. Because it succeeded so relatively quickly, however, we tended to leap from the method to the result.

Francis’s own background as a Peronist populist in Argentina means he’s arguably even more sensitive to the dangers of politics being hijacked by elites (of whatever ideology) serving their own interests, and thus the importance of a strong and engaged civil society.

One way you see that instinct in Francis is that, under previous popes, their most important political address every year was to the diplomatic corps accredited to the Vatican, representing the vertical system. With Francis, however, it’s instead his message to the World Meeting of Popular Movements, an initiative launched under his inspiration.

Last August, the Vatican published a book called The Emergence of Popular Movements: Rerum Novarum of Our Time, a reference to the 1891 social encyclical of Pope Leo XIII that launched modern Catholic social teaching. Clearly, the idea was to lift up popular movements as the most important embodiment of the Church’s social agenda in our time, with Francis calling them “a lever for profound social transformation” in his preface.

If the right way to assess someone’s success or failure is to measure them against their own objectives, therefore, perhaps it’s not the Tory victory but the global acclaim for a 16-year-old non-Catholic teen which, ironically, provides the best data point for Francis from the past week.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:59 am

wosbald wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:00 pm
+JMJ+

Pope St. John Paul II Respectfully Referred to Pachamama
Pope St. John Paul II wrote:This is the work of God, who knows that we need the food that the earth produces, that varied and expressive reality that your ancestors called the “Pachamama” and that reflects the work of divine Providence by offering us His gifts for the good of man.
Is this being used in defense of synergizing Mary and Pacamama?

Sounds to me like PJPII recognized the reality of the situation: God does this. Your ancestors attributed it to Pachamama. It was a reflection of the divine Providence.

Quite Pauline, actually.

I have a hard time rectifying his statements as anything supportive of the efforts in play today.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:27 am

+JMJ+

Fr. Pacwa and divine signs [Opinion]
Image
Photo credits: EWTN, YouTube / Michael Del Bufalo, YouTube / ChurchPOP

I would like to end my series on the controversy around the Amazon Synod carved figure by making a brief commentary on a recent video by Fr. Mitch Pacwa. This video is the source of the “do you think we’re stupid?” cannard. This catchprase has been repeated in a mantra-like fashion by those who have been clinging to the narrative that there was a pagan ritual in the Vatican. As I said since the beginning of the whole polemic, this narrative is not concerned with truth, but serves an ulterior purpose: to undermine to Synod in order to undermine an inconvenient pope. So, “do you think we’re stupid?” is supposed to be deployed whenever something contradicts the narrative, so as to shield the critic from acknowledging that he might be wrong, or that he might not be in the possession of the whole facts. It reminds me of the Monty Python’s sketch where a choir of likeminded people just drones “We are all individuals.” The difference is that the choir, in this case, is chanting “do you think we’re stupid?”, not because people have studied the matter at length (at least, they have not studied it beyond LifeSiteNews and other biased sources of the “narrative”), but because that’s the gambit they feel they were instructed to use to shut down opposition.

The video from where the mantra originated was aired by EWTN. This makes sense, since EWTN is one of the media outlets that has been actively pushing the “pagan ritual in the Vatican” narrative, regardless of various oficial denials. It consists of a segment on Fr. Pacwa’s program “Scripture and Tradition”, where he goes on to cite his experience in Peru in 1975 to claim that what happened in the Vatican Gardens was idolatry. Anyone who contradicts this is brushed aside with a shallow “knock it off, we’re not stupid.”

But the reason why I bring this up is because this video has a very interesting twist that went unnoticed until now. Fr. Pacwa mentions a strong earthquake that happened in Peru in 1970. This earthquake was so strong that it shattered everything in the area … except a statue of Jesus Christ at the local cemetery. Fr. Pacwa goes on to mention that a survivor had placed an incription in the base of the statue: “Such is the fate of those who worship Pachamama instead of Jesus Christ.”

[…]

I mention this, because those who have taken this story as a validation of their ideological narrative seem to have a double standard. For them, a statue of Jesus Christ surviving an earthquake is a divine sign, and on this they are probably right. But they have never stopped to consider that nature, commanded by God Himself, does not seem to have colaborated with their project of destroying the alleged “Pachamama” statues by throwing them in the Tiber. The carved figures were recovered unscathed.

There is a lack of discernment on their part on why this has happened. They have never even stopped to ponder this. Rather, when confronted with this sign, they just moved on to plan their next step, never considering whether they might be wrong, so convinced they are of their own righteousness in acting the way they did.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:54 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:27 am
+JMJ+

Fr. Pacwa and divine signs [Opinion]
Image
Photo credits: EWTN, YouTube / Michael Del Bufalo, YouTube / ChurchPOP

I would like to end my series on the controversy around the Amazon Synod carved figure by making a brief commentary on a recent video by Fr. Mitch Pacwa. This video is the source of the “do you think we’re stupid?” cannard. This catchprase has been repeated in a mantra-like fashion by those who have been clinging to the narrative that there was a pagan ritual in the Vatican. As I said since the beginning of the whole polemic, this narrative is not concerned with truth, but serves an ulterior purpose: to undermine to Synod in order to undermine an inconvenient pope. So, “do you think we’re stupid?” is supposed to be deployed whenever something contradicts the narrative, so as to shield the critic from acknowledging that he might be wrong, or that he might not be in the possession of the whole facts. It reminds me of the Monty Python’s sketch where a choir of likeminded people just drones “We are all individuals.” The difference is that the choir, in this case, is chanting “do you think we’re stupid?”, not because people have studied the matter at length (at least, they have not studied it beyond LifeSiteNews and other biased sources of the “narrative”), but because that’s the gambit they feel they were instructed to use to shut down opposition.

The video from where the mantra originated was aired by EWTN. This makes sense, since EWTN is one of the media outlets that has been actively pushing the “pagan ritual in the Vatican” narrative, regardless of various oficial denials. It consists of a segment on Fr. Pacwa’s program “Scripture and Tradition”, where he goes on to cite his experience in Peru in 1975 to claim that what happened in the Vatican Gardens was idolatry. Anyone who contradicts this is brushed aside with a shallow “knock it off, we’re not stupid.”

But the reason why I bring this up is because this video has a very interesting twist that went unnoticed until now. Fr. Pacwa mentions a strong earthquake that happened in Peru in 1970. This earthquake was so strong that it shattered everything in the area … except a statue of Jesus Christ at the local cemetery. Fr. Pacwa goes on to mention that a survivor had placed an incription in the base of the statue: “Such is the fate of those who worship Pachamama instead of Jesus Christ.”

[…]

I mention this, because those who have taken this story as a validation of their ideological narrative seem to have a double standard. For them, a statue of Jesus Christ surviving an earthquake is a divine sign, and on this they are probably right. But they have never stopped to consider that nature, commanded by God Himself, does not seem to have colaborated with their project of destroying the alleged “Pachamama” statues by throwing them in the Tiber. The carved figures were recovered unscathed.

There is a lack of discernment on their part on why this has happened. They have never even stopped to ponder this. Rather, when confronted with this sign, they just moved on to plan their next step, never considering whether they might be wrong, so convinced they are of their own righteousness in acting the way they did.

[…]
Thank you, Wosbald. I needed a hearty laugh this morning.

If those pachamamas were in fact recovered, I would put on a hat so I could take it off and eat it. :lol:
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Thunktank » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:54 pm

tuttle wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:59 am
wosbald wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:00 pm
+JMJ+

Pope St. John Paul II Respectfully Referred to Pachamama
Pope St. John Paul II wrote:This is the work of God, who knows that we need the food that the earth produces, that varied and expressive reality that your ancestors called the “Pachamama” and that reflects the work of divine Providence by offering us His gifts for the good of man.
Is this being used in defense of synergizing Mary and Pacamama?

Sounds to me like PJPII recognized the reality of the situation: God does this. Your ancestors attributed it to Pachamama. It was a reflection of the divine Providence.

Quite Pauline, actually.

I have a hard time rectifying his statements as anything supportive of the efforts in play today.
I agree. Introducing something to a liturgical service has rules. I’m not really familiar with Roman rite liturgical rules. Yes, I attend many Roman rite Masses, but I’m not as familiar with the rules and norms as I am with the Byzantine (Orthodox) rites. Regardless, it begs the question as to what reasoning is being used to defend this behavior.

In some Greek Orthodox churches icons of Greek philosophers are hung on the wall below the icons of Saints because of their recognition of certain truths. They are ranked “below” to show their rightful place.

However, the “Pachamama” statues has no clarity, it has no clear message of transformation, redemption salvation or theosis. We venerate Saints and icons of Biblical teachings because they are examples of God’s saving grace. Meanwhile we hear reports of bishops in the Amazon who don’t even baptize the native people in fear of offending their culture. That’s absurd and it’s wrong!

The church has a long history of examples of recently converted people and cultures. Some people and societies “convert” more quickly than others. Varying degrees of tolerance has been shown them. The fact that a “Pachamama” has found itself at a Synod isn’t surprising. What is of great concern to me is how little guidance is given by those who should know better. In fact, outright condemnation is being leveled against those who are defending a higher standard and instead confusion is supported and made the norm. Whoever organized those synod events and approved this without due explanation has done the whole church a great disservice and the Catholic Church has once again been scandalized due to sin. It has once again driven a wedge between Christians where true ecumenical relations can exist, and understandably so. It’s embarrassing. I never felt embarrassed by anything done in an Orthodox liturgical service.

I thought the Pope did very well when he set aside his speech and said the Lord’s Prayer at the initial event. But since has not clarified the proper use of images in worship. I don’t mean to sound triumphant, but the Roman rite in certain places are playing loosely with their worship and veneration and it concerns me.
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:29 am

+JMJ+

Death penalty continues to decline in the U.S. according to new report [In-Depth]
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Father Chris Ponnet, chaplain at St. Camillus Center in Los Angeles, speaks during a rally protesting the death penalty in Anaheim Feb. 25, 2017. (Credit: Andrew Cullen/Reuters via CNS)

NEW YORK — For five years in a row, there have been fewer than 30 death penalty executions and fewer than 50 death sentences, according to a new report that chronicles a continued dramatic decline in the use of capital punishment in the United States.

The new report, released on Tuesday by the Death Penalty Information Center (DPIC), notes that there were 22 executions in 2019, down slightly from 25 in 2018 and that in that same time, New Hampshire abolished the practice and California declared a moratorium on executions.

According to the report, executions only took place in seven states during 2019, and Texas accounted for 41 percent of those executions. As for issuing new death sentences, Florida and Ohio held the record, with both states imposing six sentences each over the last year.

During that same time, courts across the country halted more executions — a total of 24 throughout the year — than the 22 that were carried out.

In addition, the U.S. Supreme Court has left in place a preliminary injunction, which prohibits the government from carrying out the first federal executions in 16 years — despite the fact that in July, the Trump administration announced that it intended to resume federal executions after the 16-year hiatus.

Robert Dunham, executive director of DPIC, told Crux that it is important to view the federal jurisdiction as one jurisdiction among others and that the question with the Trump administration was whether they were going to follow the state trends and not impose the practice or whether they were going to be an outlier.

“It’s clear they were going to be an outlier,” he said.

“The death penalty is disappearing in whole regions across the United States,” he continued. “You can now drive from the northeastern tip of Maine to the southwestern tip of West Virginia without setting tire in a death penalty state.”

Further, he said that states west of Texas have not seen an execution in the last five years and that efforts are underway in both the Republican controlled legislature in Wyoming and the Democratic controlled legislature of Colorado to end the practice, giving it bipartisan momentum throughout the United States.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:06 am

+JMJ+

They actually believe this garbage [Opinion]
Image

Today, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò, writing from an undisclosed location, issued yet another statement against Pope Francis, summarized by Lifesite News, (another translation is provided by Robert Moynihan of Inside the Vatican) employing the type of language once reserved for sedevacantist websites and anonymous Twitter trolls:
The tragic story of this failed pontificate advances with a pressing succession of twists and turns. Not a day passes: from the most exalted throne the Supreme Pontiff proceeds to dismantle the See of Peter, using and abusing its supreme authority, not to confess but to deny; not to confirm but to mislead; not to unite but to divide; not to build but to demolish. Material heresies, formal heresies, idolatry, superficiality of every kind.
It’s difficult to imagine that not long ago, Viganò held the prestigious position of apostolic nuncio to the United States, where an important part of his role was to suggest candidates for bishops to the Holy See. Prior to 2013, such lapses in discernment and deference to the Holy Father were considered the realm of the lunatic fringe. They certainly weren’t published favorably in widely-read publications, or tweeted out with multiple pull-quotes by Vatican reporters such as Ed Pentin (or retweeted without comment by Cardinals’ top staffers, as Cardinal Burke’s press secretary Elizabeth Westhoff did today).

Don’t be mistaken, this statement by Viganò is a declaration that Pope Francis is aggressively advancing an anti-Gospel, siding with the Enemy against Christ and his Blessed Mother. Moynihan, in his unofficial translation, quotes him as saying that Francis has made,
nothing less than a declaration of war on the Lady and Patroness of all the Americas, who with her appearance to Juan Diego destroyed the demonic idols and conquered the Indians for Christ and for the adoration of the ‘Most True and Only God,’ thanks to her maternal Mediation.
This is a long way from what papal critics have claimed is just “respectfully asking questions” or calling for transparency about potential mishandling of cases of sexual abuse. This is anti-Catholic madness. Some fringe figures are already accusing Francis of being the False Prophet (or even the antichrist), and I wouldn’t be surprised if Viganò soon joined their chorus.

Today we live in unusual times, and it’s not only retired nuncios who seem to have embraced the ridiculous and implausible. Unfortunately it seems that many who are in positions that have historically been associated with discretion and good judgment are now openly and irresponsibly promoting bizarre and paranoid conspiracy theories, fake news, and apocalyptic predictions.

[…]

I’ve often wondered why Francis is allowing these offenses against him and these threats against the Church to go unchecked. I haven’t seen any reports of disciplinary actions against Aidan Nichols or Viganò or Cardinal Burke or Athanasius Schneider, despite their persistent attacks on the Holy Father and the Magisterium. Some papal critics, such as the aforementioned Fr. Weinandy have suggested that Francis’s papacy has served to bring much of the dissent and disordered ideologies out into the open. Perhaps they’re right, just not in the way they expect. Indeed, the more rope Francis has given his detractors and theologian critics to spread dangerous and false ideas, the more obviously aberrant their positions become.

This also undermines the theory that the anti-Francis movement is, at heart, a strategic and economically and politically motivated movement. These prelates might receive funding and support from political figures, but they are true believers. Unfortunately, much of what they believe is reveals extremely poor discernment and rational judgement. It’s not Catholic teaching, it’s apocalyptic and paranoid fiction. Fortunately, much of it is so ridiculous that only the most extreme will buy into it.

I believe the Church is at the beginning of a purification. Rigidity and a false understanding of the Magisterium is being exposed and the path to a missionary Church that evangelizes in the true Spirit of the Gospel is being cleared. Unfortunately, the process still has a long way to go.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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