I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Where Fellowship and Camaraderie lives: that place where the CPS membership values fun and good fellowship as the cement of the community
User avatar
Hovannes
Minister of Unanswered Threads
Minister of Unanswered Threads
Posts: 28329
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: In the fertile San Joaquin Valley

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:15 pm

wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:41 am
+JMJ+

Pope Francis calls Trump’s family separation border policy ‘cruelty of the highest form’ [In-Depth]
Image
Javier, a 30-year-old immigrant from Honduras, kisses his 4-year-old son, William, July 11 in New York when they were reunited after being separated for 55 days during detention at the Texas border. (CNS photo/Lucas Jackson, Reuters)

Pope Francis called the Trump administration policy of separating children at the border “cruelty of the highest form” in a new documentary that premiered in Rome today.

“It’s cruelty, and separating kids from parents goes against natural rights,” the pope says in the documentary “Francesco.” “It’s something a Christian cannot do. It’s cruelty of the highest form.”

Under the Trump administration, U.S. border enforcement officials began separating children from their parents as early as 2017, according to the Associated Press. The administration implemented a zero-tolerance policy in May 2018, leading to more than 2,700 children being separated from their parents in less than a month. That June, a U.S. district judge ordered an end to the practice.

In a new documentary, Pope Francis says separating migrant children from their parents is “something a Christian cannot do. It’s cruelty of the highest form.”

Yet today, three years after being separated, 545 children have still not been united with their parents, according to court-appointed lawyers.

“We know that the separation of children was a willful and calculated strategy to weaponize against vulnerable migrants at the border the most sacred thing they had—their family,” Dylan Corbett, the executive director of the Hope Border Initiative, said in an email to America.

“The revelation that years later we still have not been able to reunite hundreds of families points to the lasting and irreversible damage of this awful moment of moral darkness in our nation’s history,” he said. “We need to remember, make amends and end the cruel strategies of deterrence against migrants in every form they take.”

[…]

Pope Francis also spoke about the construction of a border wall between the countries during the documentary. “And to build walls as if that were a defense. To defend what? Territory? The country’s economy? Or who knows what?” he says. “He who builds walls becomes a prisoner of the walls he builds.”

Ms. Dakin-Grimm, who has represented 75 children separated from their families, said Francis' statements on immigrantion can be traced to the teachings of previous popes, like Leo XIII and Pius XII. In 1952’s “Exsul Familia,” for example, Pius XII wrote that a family’s right to migrate is part of the natural law.

Sometimes, after she gives talks in Catholic settings, people will approach her and say it is the parents fault that they were separated from their children. They should not have brought them to the border in the first place, they say. They do not understand that families, like the Arrendondos, are fleeing to save their lives.

[…]
"Who built the cages, Joe?"
DEUS VULT!

User avatar
wosbald
Lonergan Fan Club President
Lonergan Fan Club President
Posts: 22730
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:31 am

+JMJ+

The futility of “Explaining the pope away” [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image

Signs of an all-too familiar pattern are appearing.

The narrative that the pope didn’t really say what he said seems to be developing in some conservative Catholic circles. We’re still in the midst of the media circus after Pope Francis was revealed to have made some provocative statements in an upcoming documentary, including, “Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family,” and, “What we have to create is a civil un𝗂on law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

[…]

Do we really have to go through this again?

My advice to Catholics for whom this is difficult to accept: don’t deny the reality of what Pope Francis very clearly said. For Catholics who are taking refuge in the official status of the 2003 CDF document and the fact that Francis expressed his thoughts informally: you might want to brace yourself for potential disappointment. No, he hasn’t taught this officially — yet. But it’s important to note that this is a prudential matter, and the Church’s approach could very well change. Francis’s position does not violate doctrine, and the present circumstances in the world might prompt an official change in the Church’s approach to this question.

At this point, if you haven’t already done so, I urge you to read the doctrinal justification for Pope Francis’s position by theologians Dawn Eden Goldstein, SThD, and Robert Fastiggi, PhD, that we published yesterday. I believe it reflects the thought of Pope Francis on the matter, and clearly lays out why his position is in alignment with Catholic doctrine.

We are once again seeing signs that we’re headed down the same bumpy road, unfortunately. It results in nothing but needless tension and division in the Church. We’ve seen it happen several times, and it looks like it could very well happen again. Here are the seven phases of Pope Francis frustration:
  • First, Pope Francis says something provocative (“we need to change the teaching on the death penalty,” or “we need to find new ways to integrate those who are divorced and remarried into the life of the Church”).
  • This provokes reactions among conservative Catholics ranging from outrage to frustration and worry. Wary Catholics reassure each other that there’s nothing to it (“he hasn’t taught this formally,” or “it’s just his private opinion”).
  • Next, he teaches something officially (the revision to Catechism section #2267, Amoris Laetitia).
    Then, the same people find workarounds or loopholes that deny the substance of the teaching (“A change to the Catechism isn’t how the pope promulgates magisterial teaching,” or “Well, Amoris can be interpreted in an orthodox way”).
  • Later, Pope Francis explicitly and officially reaffirms what a plain reading of the teaching already said (when he reasserted the inadmissibility of the death penalty in Fratelli Tutti, when he promulgated the Argentine bishops’ guidelines for Amoris Laetitia as authentic Magisterium).
  • When this happens, the same people become extremely disappointed. Typically they will find more excuses and loopholes that allow them to reject the teaching, while still clinging desperately to the idea that they don’t dissent from Church teaching and are entirely orthodox and loyal Catholics.
  • Inevitably, every time this happens, a few more “big names” decide to make some kind of sensational media splash, condemning the pope and his teachings and urging other Catholics that they are right, and Pope Francis is teaching error (or a heretic, or is leading the faithful astray, or whatever).
Please, let’s not go through this again. While we can’t predict the future, I would advise being open to the possibility that what Francis said in the interview may someday be reflected in official Church teaching. We once again are faced with a choice: we can either again fight tooth-and-nail against the Successor of Peter, or we can trust in the Holy Spirit to guide the Church.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

User avatar
tuttle
Tomnoddy Attercop
Tomnoddy Attercop
Posts: 15634
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:18 am

wosbald wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:31 am
+JMJ+

The futility of “Explaining the pope away” [In-Depth, Opinion]

Please, let’s not go through this again. While we can’t predict the future, I would advise being open to the possibility that what Francis said in the interview may someday be reflected in official Church teaching. We once again are faced with a choice: we can either again fight tooth-and-nail against the Successor of Peter, or we can trust in the Holy Spirit to guide the Church.
I've said it before, somewhere in this thread probably, that the Pope may be a good guy but he's a bad leader. He's divisive and his lack of clarity on fiery issues (that he brings up) only pours on more fuel.

I know a handful of Catholics (not CPS Catholics) who are trusting the Holy Spirit will continue to guide the Church in spite of Francis' leftist efforts. I also know one, my neighbor, who has been so rocked by the Pope that--to his great sorrow--he says he can't even attend Mass any more.

As to advising being open to the possibility that queer livin' may someday be reflected in official Church teaching...well that's an Exhibit A hallmark of progressive Christianity. Mainline Protestantism has already travelled that road.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
wosbald
Lonergan Fan Club President
Lonergan Fan Club President
Posts: 22730
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:17 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:18 am
[…]

I know a handful of Catholics (not CPS Catholics) who are trusting the Holy Spirit will continue to guide the Church in spite of Francis' leftist efforts. I also know one, my neighbor, who has been so rocked by the Pope that--to his great sorrow--he says he can't even attend Mass any more.

[…]
The poor babies.

Image Having the Vapours is not the same as having the Spirit.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

User avatar
tuttle
Tomnoddy Attercop
Tomnoddy Attercop
Posts: 15634
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:24 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:17 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:18 am
[…]

I know a handful of Catholics (not CPS Catholics) who are trusting the Holy Spirit will continue to guide the Church in spite of Francis' leftist efforts. I also know one, my neighbor, who has been so rocked by the Pope that--to his great sorrow--he says he can't even attend Mass any more.

[…]
The poor babies.

Image Having the Vapours is not the same as having the Spirit.
Must be the Vapours causing them to not see the Spirit progressing the Church toward the possibility of approving butt stuff unions.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
hugodrax
McMuffins & 'Murica!
McMuffins & 'Murica!
Posts: 23593
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:48 am

tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:24 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:17 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:18 am
[…]

I know a handful of Catholics (not CPS Catholics) who are trusting the Holy Spirit will continue to guide the Church in spite of Francis' leftist efforts. I also know one, my neighbor, who has been so rocked by the Pope that--to his great sorrow--he says he can't even attend Mass any more.

[…]
The poor babies.

Image Having the Vapours is not the same as having the Spirit.
Must be the Vapours causing them to not see the Spirit progressing the Church toward the possibility of approving butt stuff unions.
Calm down, fellows. It's entirely possible for you both to be incredibly condescending sloganeers ultimately leading souls away from Christ on doctrinal grounds, even if you arrived at your reasons for so doing via alternate intellectual paths.

A double case of "lighten up, Francis". Work with your hands, love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself and realize God loves the other guy more than you ever could. You might could build some consensus that way, if each other's ultimate salvation is actually your goal and this thing isn't just a game you're hoping to win by telling the other guy "I told you so" upon his eventual demise.

Then again, if I could do that myself I wouldn't have responded. :oops:
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

User avatar
wosbald
Lonergan Fan Club President
Lonergan Fan Club President
Posts: 22730
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:19 am

+JMJ+

Subject Header: Economic Magisterium/Integral Ecology/Fratelli Tutti
Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 65 / pg 121 / pg 121 / pg 122 / pg 127 / pg 128 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129

Inter-Thread Trackbacks:
"THE CATHOLIC THREAD": pg 119 / pg 119 / pg 119 / pg 119 / pg 151



Misreading Francis on Private Property [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image
(Credit: Kommerzielle Bilder/iStock)

We have come to know and expect that whenever the pope writes or says anything of significance, he will earn the ire of professional provocateurs. Now, in the eighth year of Francis’s papacy, there’s a certain comforting predictability about the to-and-fro between his expression of Church teaching and the ensuing outrage. We saw this happen when Francis was quoted out of context in his support for civil unions. Also, Taylor Marshall took issue with the number of times Francis used a particular word or phrase in his latest encyclical, Fratelli Tutti, as if this were some secret code that one could use to assess its orthodoxy.

Likewise unsurprising were the comments of those who, with an air of authority, betrayed their lack of charity towards the pope. One issue in particular that has arisen concerns “private property.” Phil Lawler, noted author of Lost Shepherd: How Pope Francis Is Misleading His Flock and other works, composed a five-tweet thread and an article for Catholic Culture in which he claimed that it was “simply impossible to square the Pope’s statements with those of his predecessors.” The problematic statement? Lawler writes, “Pope Leo says the right to private property is inviolable; Pope Francis says it is not inviolable.”

This is a reference to the following statement in the Pope’s new encyclical, which is largely a quote from his 2015 encyclical, Laudato Si’. Francis writes in Fratelli Tutti:
I would observe that “the Christian tradition has never recognized the right to private property as absolute or inviolable, and has stressed the social purpose of all forms of private property”.
This statement can be contrasted with Pope Leo’s statement in Rerum Novarum:
The first and most fundamental principle, therefore, if one would undertake to alleviate the condition of the masses, must be the inviolability of private property.
[…]

… The key issue today is Lawler’s fixation on the word “inviolable.” One pope says private property is not inviolable while another says it is. How can we reconcile this apparent contradiction? Leo is referring to the role of private property in securing the common good. In other words, private property serves a purpose. While the right to private property is a legitimate right, one that Francis himself acknowledges, it is not the primary right. Leo would not disagree.

Recall that Leo wrote expressly against the claim that private property ought not to exist at all — i.e., against communism. In Rerum Novarum, however, Leo further wrote about the state’s role in securing conditions that best advance the possibility for integral development, particularly for the poor, and defended the state’s taxation authority to achieve those ends. These statements are simply irreconcilable if one adopts Lawler’s rigid interpretation of the word “inviolable.” Properly understood, the right to private property is indeed inviolable, but with certain qualifications and under certain conditions. For instance when private property owners renege on their responsibility to assist the poor, the state has an obligation to “remedy the evil,” according to Leo.

Thus, there are claims upon the right to private property, as well as corresponding responsibilities and obligations. Both Francis and Lawler (in 2015 and 2020) acknowledge this when they explicitly reference St. John Paul II’s description of a “social mortgage.” That phrase appeared in his 1987 encyclical, Sollicitudo Rei Socialis. Without using the word “inviolable,” John Paul described this right ordering between the universal destination of goods and private property:
It is necessary to state once more the characteristic principle of Christian social doctrine: the goods of this world are originally meant for all. The right to private property is valid and necessary, but it does not nullify the value of this principle. Private property, in fact, is under a “social mortgage,” which means that it has an intrinsically social function, based upon and justified precisely by the principle of the universal destination of goods.
[…]

Ultimately, Francis upholds Church teaching in Fratelli Tutti, saying:
The right to private property can only be considered a secondary natural right, derived from the principle of the universal destination of created goods.
Readers seeking to explore this beautiful teaching may be interested in reading some expert commentary. For example, the National Catholic Register covered this issue in at least two articles. The first was an interview with David Cloutier of the Catholic University of America. Asked whether Francis and Leo are in conflict, Cloutier responded:
Oh, certainly not. It’s a clear ordering of principles, which is to say that the right of private property is the ordinary way in which we exercise the universal destination of goods. We give people property so that they can be stewards of it. … It is a moral error when I think “This is my property, and I can do what I want with it.” That second part — “I can do what I want with it” is the moral error. No, in fact, to have property is to have responsibility and to think about how to constructively use that property for the good of all.
The second article was another survey of other expert views on the matter who agree that Francis is in line with the Church’s tradition on the matter. In this article, Lawler is quoted as a dissenting “other voice” alongside a representative of the Tradition, Family, Property organization, which has been active in cultivating support against Vatican II and Pope Francis.

[…]

The rigid thinking and reactionary propaganda, characteristic of a certain segment of the Catholic commentariat, could have been avoided. In 2015, Lawler’s piece on Laudato Si’ was remarkably insightful, capturing even the way Francis wrote poetically about the beauty of creation and our role in it. But Lawler’s 2020 article on Fratelli Tutti is superficial and adds nothing to any serious discussion of the encyclical. His faulty analysis will likely cause confusion and mislead his fellow Catholics about actual Church teaching.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

User avatar
FredS
Patron Saint of Pipe Smoking
Patron Saint of Pipe Smoking
Posts: 24349
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:00 pm
Location: NOCO (Northern Colorado)

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by FredS » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:45 am

wosbald wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:31 am
+JMJ+

The futility of “Explaining the pope away” [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Conservative Catholics - "He's not my Pope."

Progressive Catholics - "He's not my President."

Middle-of-the-road Catholics - "Meh. The Pope said what he said. It's not like we look to the Church for guidance anyway. Baptize my baby and have mass on Christmas Eve and we're OK."
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

User avatar
hugodrax
McMuffins & 'Murica!
McMuffins & 'Murica!
Posts: 23593
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:24 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:45 am
wosbald wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:31 am
+JMJ+

The futility of “Explaining the pope away” [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Conservative Catholics - "He's not my Pope."

Progressive Catholics - "He's not my President."

Middle-of-the-road Catholics - "Meh. The Pope said what he said. It's not like we look to the Church for guidance anyway. Baptize my baby and have mass on Christmas Eve and we're OK."
Can you add the Reasonable Catholic?--"Meh. Pope's don't live forever, dude. We'll see what sticks. Meantime, I'll stick to my Sacraments."
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

User avatar
mcommini
Usher
Usher
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:45 pm
Location: Santa Fe

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by mcommini » Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:40 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:48 am
You might could build some consensus that way, if each other's ultimate salvation is actually your goal and this thing isn't just a game you're hoping to win by telling the other guy "I told you so" upon his eventual demise.

Then again, if I could do that myself I wouldn't have responded. :oops:
I consider the wosbald era of this thread to be the ultimate test against myself in the coliseum of Orthodox convert "triumphalism". I genuinely liked Pope Benedict, who was the pope when I converted to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism. This post has been redacted from a much longer version, which would have been more on point with your final sentence, but needless to say "I told you so" is, especially on the internet, the final demon we must face.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." --TH White

User avatar
hugodrax
McMuffins & 'Murica!
McMuffins & 'Murica!
Posts: 23593
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:01 pm

mcommini wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:40 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:48 am
You might could build some consensus that way, if each other's ultimate salvation is actually your goal and this thing isn't just a game you're hoping to win by telling the other guy "I told you so" upon his eventual demise.

Then again, if I could do that myself I wouldn't have responded. :oops:
I consider the wosbald era of this thread to be the ultimate test against myself in the coliseum of Orthodox convert "triumphalism". I genuinely liked Pope Benedict, who was the pope when I converted to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism. This post has been redacted from a much longer version, which would have been more on point with your final sentence, but needless to say "I told you so" is, especially on the internet, the final demon we must face.
It sounds like good stuff. "I told you so" is most all of our biggest downfalls, particularly my own. It is only because I recognize this log in my own eye that I dare to remove this splinter from my brothers' eyes. I don't claim to be above doing this. Read my old posts. :oops:

And I heard Wosbald violated the Natural Law with a pony, so we have that, too. Unless its "Fake News." So hard to tell anymore. Still, locking up the stallion tonight. Can't be too careful these days.
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

User avatar
wosbald
Lonergan Fan Club President
Lonergan Fan Club President
Posts: 22730
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:40 pm

+JMJ+

Benedict XVI distances himself from embattled Catholic community
Image
Pope Benedict XVI, pictured on Aug. 28, 2010. (Credit: L’Osservatore Romano)

CNA Staff, Oct 25, 2020 / 02:30 pm MT (CNA) — Benedict XVI has distanced himself from a Catholic community with which he had maintained close ties for decades.

The German magazine Herder Korrespondenz reported Oct. 25 that the Pope Emeritus had taken the step regarding the Catholic Integrated Community.

Referring to the group by its German initials, IG, Benedict told the publication: “Obviously I was not informed about some things in the inner life of the IG, or even deceived, which I regret.”

He had given the group ecclesiastical recognition during his time as archbishop of Munich and Freising, from 1977 to 1982.

CNA Deutsch, CNA’s German-language news partner, reported that Benedict also said: “At first I did not realize that in the attempt to shape the things of daily life integrally from faith, terrible distortions of faith were also possible.”

"I deeply regret that this gave the impression that all activities of the community had been approved by the archbishop.”

The Catholic Integrated Community, founded in 1948, was intended to be, according to its own description, “a place for an enlightened and unabridged Christianity.”

The community achieved ecclesiastic recognition in 1978 by the archbishops of Paderborn and Munich — Johannes Degenhardt and Joseph Ratzinger respectively — and in 1985 it was established as a public association of the Christian faithful under Church law.

As CNA Deutsch previously reported, the archdiocese of Munich and Freising published an interim report in November 2019 in which ex-members of the group described interventions in their private life. These included the choice of a place of residence and the number of children in a family, as well as the exertion of psychological pressure on relatives.

[…]

On the IG’s website — which appears to have gone offline — the community had described the accusations in the interim report as “completely groundless.”

According to Herder Korrespondenz, a member of the group said that the community had decided to completely cease its “activity as a church association and has since done so.” Research by the Herder Korrespondenz shows, however, that the group apparently plans to continue its work “in a new legal form.”

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

User avatar
mcommini
Usher
Usher
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:45 pm
Location: Santa Fe

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by mcommini » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:09 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:01 pm
mcommini wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:40 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:48 am
You might could build some consensus that way, if each other's ultimate salvation is actually your goal and this thing isn't just a game you're hoping to win by telling the other guy "I told you so" upon his eventual demise.

Then again, if I could do that myself I wouldn't have responded. :oops:
I consider the wosbald era of this thread to be the ultimate test against myself in the coliseum of Orthodox convert "triumphalism". I genuinely liked Pope Benedict, who was the pope when I converted to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism. This post has been redacted from a much longer version, which would have been more on point with your final sentence, but needless to say "I told you so" is, especially on the internet, the final demon we must face.
It sounds like good stuff. "I told you so" is most all of our biggest downfalls, particularly my own. It is only because I recognize this log in my own eye that I dare to remove this splinter from my brothers' eyes. I don't claim to be above doing this. Read my old posts. :oops:

And I heard Wosbald violated the Natural Law with a pony, so we have that, too. Unless its "Fake News." So hard to tell anymore. Still, locking up the stallion tonight. Can't be too careful these days.
I've confirmed the only violation was of felt and consenting adults. Still, the amount of glitter involved is, by all verifiable reports, disturbing.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." --TH White

TNLawPiper
1-800-LAW-DAWG
1-800-LAW-DAWG
Posts: 19290
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by TNLawPiper » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:25 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:24 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:45 am
Conservative Catholics - "He's not my Pope."

Progressive Catholics - "He's not my President."

Middle-of-the-road Catholics - "Meh. The Pope said what he said. It's not like we look to the Church for guidance anyway. Baptize my baby and have mass on Christmas Eve and we're OK."
Can you add the Reasonable Catholic?--"Meh. Pope's don't live forever, dude. We'll see what sticks. Meantime, I'll stick to my Sacraments."
+1

In 2000 years, there have been many bad popes, and yet we still partake of the Risen Lord at every celebration of Mass. May God have mercy on us for thinking we are powerful enough to screw that up.
Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.

User avatar
tuttle
Tomnoddy Attercop
Tomnoddy Attercop
Posts: 15634
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:00 am

mcommini wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:09 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:01 pm
mcommini wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:40 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:48 am
You might could build some consensus that way, if each other's ultimate salvation is actually your goal and this thing isn't just a game you're hoping to win by telling the other guy "I told you so" upon his eventual demise.

Then again, if I could do that myself I wouldn't have responded. :oops:
I consider the wosbald era of this thread to be the ultimate test against myself in the coliseum of Orthodox convert "triumphalism". I genuinely liked Pope Benedict, who was the pope when I converted to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism. This post has been redacted from a much longer version, which would have been more on point with your final sentence, but needless to say "I told you so" is, especially on the internet, the final demon we must face.
It sounds like good stuff. "I told you so" is most all of our biggest downfalls, particularly my own. It is only because I recognize this log in my own eye that I dare to remove this splinter from my brothers' eyes. I don't claim to be above doing this. Read my old posts. :oops:

And I heard Wosbald violated the Natural Law with a pony, so we have that, too. Unless its "Fake News." So hard to tell anymore. Still, locking up the stallion tonight. Can't be too careful these days.
I've confirmed the only violation was of felt and consenting adults. Still, the amount of glitter involved is, by all verifiable reports, disturbing.
My only regret is not having just taken a drink to burst spray upon the computer screen when reading that. :rotfl:
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
hugodrax
McMuffins & 'Murica!
McMuffins & 'Murica!
Posts: 23593
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:16 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:00 am
mcommini wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:09 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:01 pm
mcommini wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:40 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:48 am
You might could build some consensus that way, if each other's ultimate salvation is actually your goal and this thing isn't just a game you're hoping to win by telling the other guy "I told you so" upon his eventual demise.

Then again, if I could do that myself I wouldn't have responded. :oops:
I consider the wosbald era of this thread to be the ultimate test against myself in the coliseum of Orthodox convert "triumphalism". I genuinely liked Pope Benedict, who was the pope when I converted to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism. This post has been redacted from a much longer version, which would have been more on point with your final sentence, but needless to say "I told you so" is, especially on the internet, the final demon we must face.
It sounds like good stuff. "I told you so" is most all of our biggest downfalls, particularly my own. It is only because I recognize this log in my own eye that I dare to remove this splinter from my brothers' eyes. I don't claim to be above doing this. Read my old posts. :oops:

And I heard Wosbald violated the Natural Law with a pony, so we have that, too. Unless its "Fake News." So hard to tell anymore. Still, locking up the stallion tonight. Can't be too careful these days.
I've confirmed the only violation was of felt and consenting adults. Still, the amount of glitter involved is, by all verifiable reports, disturbing.
My only regret is not having just taken a drink to burst spray upon the computer screen when reading that. :rotfl:
Tuttle was wearing the pony suit, amirite?
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

User avatar
tuttle
Tomnoddy Attercop
Tomnoddy Attercop
Posts: 15634
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Middle-west
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:44 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:16 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:00 am
mcommini wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:09 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:01 pm
mcommini wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:40 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:48 am
You might could build some consensus that way, if each other's ultimate salvation is actually your goal and this thing isn't just a game you're hoping to win by telling the other guy "I told you so" upon his eventual demise.

Then again, if I could do that myself I wouldn't have responded. :oops:
I consider the wosbald era of this thread to be the ultimate test against myself in the coliseum of Orthodox convert "triumphalism". I genuinely liked Pope Benedict, who was the pope when I converted to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism. This post has been redacted from a much longer version, which would have been more on point with your final sentence, but needless to say "I told you so" is, especially on the internet, the final demon we must face.
It sounds like good stuff. "I told you so" is most all of our biggest downfalls, particularly my own. It is only because I recognize this log in my own eye that I dare to remove this splinter from my brothers' eyes. I don't claim to be above doing this. Read my old posts. :oops:

And I heard Wosbald violated the Natural Law with a pony, so we have that, too. Unless its "Fake News." So hard to tell anymore. Still, locking up the stallion tonight. Can't be too careful these days.
I've confirmed the only violation was of felt and consenting adults. Still, the amount of glitter involved is, by all verifiable reports, disturbing.
My only regret is not having just taken a drink to burst spray upon the computer screen when reading that. :rotfl:
Tuttle was wearing the pony suit, amirite?
Just the front half thank God.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

User avatar
wosbald
Lonergan Fan Club President
Lonergan Fan Club President
Posts: 22730
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:46 am

+JMJ+

Subject Header: Economic Magisterium/Integral Ecology/Fratelli Tutti
Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 65 / pg 121 / pg 121 / pg 122 / pg 127 / pg 128 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 130

Inter-Thread Trackbacks:
"THE CATHOLIC THREAD": pg 119 / pg 119 / pg 119 / pg 119 / pg 151



Pope Francis and the Nation-State: "Fratelli Tutti" as Critique of Radical Orthodoxy [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image

In this global world, Pope Francis’ option is for healthy secularity — and not for the dreams of a neo-medieval Christendom where the modern nation-state is too easily dismissed as a fetish.

One name that we find in Fratelli Tutti — as well as in the speech that Pope Francis delivered to Congress on September 24, 2015 — is Martin Luther King, Jr. The latest papal encyclical does not name politicians and is shy about mentioning examples of political holiness, especially Catholic examples. But Fratelli Tutti is not shy about addressing and naming social and political issues: nationalism, populism, colonization, and slavery. It offers a proposal on how to build human fraternity: social love, political love, subsidiarity, solidarity, and citizenship.

The concept of citizenship, in particular, is interesting because it reveals an interesting take by Francis on one of the issues debated in Catholicism, especially English-speaking Catholicism, during the last few years: the nation-state. The role of the nation-state is mentioned several times in Fratelli Tutti. Paragraph 132, for example, talks about the necessity of a common effort in the international community when dealing with movements of migration. And paragraph 153 defends states that often find themselves at the mercy of more powerful countries and large businesses.

Several paragraphs in chapter five, “A Better Kind of Politics,” talk about the nation-state. Early in the chapter, Francis laments the fact that “the twenty-first century ‘is witnessing a weakening of the power of nation states, chiefly because the economic and financial sectors, being transnational, tend to prevail over the political. Given this situation, it is essential to devise stronger and more efficiently organized international institutions, with functionaries who are appointed fairly by agreement among national governments, and empowered to impose sanctions’” (no. 172).

[…]

But at the same time, Fratelli Tutti calls states to take responsibility in the case of “violence perpetrated by the state” (no. 253) and in regard to capital punishment, as well as extrajudicial or extralegal executions (no. 267).

[…]

Fratelli Tutti casts a light on Pope Francis’ political culture and political theology. Jorge Mario Bergoglio is a Catholic born and raised in the middle of the twentieth century, who came of age as a Jesuit in the golden era of post-World War II internationalism. This was the golden era of the nation-state, as well as a time when Catholics made intellectual and political contributions to the rebuilding of their states. His formation and worldview are very far from the late-twentieth and early twenty-first-century “radical orthodox” theology, which sees the nation-state as a fetish created and manipulated by the liberal order.

Francis is a global pope: the first non-European and non-Mediterranean pope, whose cultural and political roots are in Latin America but also in Europe. This has become visible in the last few years with more frequent papal references to Europe and the European Un𝗂on as a political project. This also means a clear distance between Francis and the “Anglobalized” world — not only from neo-imperial Anglobalization but also from the populism and nationalism of Trump and Brexit. Francis is at remove from Catholic and Protestant political theologies of post-modernity with Anglo roots, both in radical orthodox and liberal-progressive versions.

When he talks about state, government, international organizations, and the role of the Church in the world, Francis’ language about politics is much more modern than post-modern. It is particularly telling that he sees, in a pragmatic and non-ideological way, in nation-states an indispensable actor which has an enormous responsibility in caring for the global common good, eliminating hunger and poverty, and defending fundamental human rights. Pope Francis also views the economy in terms of redistributionist capitalism, where the state is the key actor in redistributing wealth. Francis is also very far from the rhetoric of U.S.-based Catholic neo-integralists, who emphasize the victimhood of the Church at the hands of the nation-state. The pope’s pragmatically positive view of the nation-state comes not just from his political realism, but it also has theological roots. Francis still echoes that fundamental assumption of the Second Vatican Council: The Church and the nation-state can and must cooperate for the common good. Francis is a Vatican II Catholic whose view of the nation-state is very distant from the political ecclesiology of radical orthodoxy — and even more removed from retreat plans like “the Benedict option.”

Fratelli Tutti has interreligious genesis, audience, and goals, with a particular focus on partnership with Islam through the grand imam of Al-Azhar, Sheikh Ahmad al-Tayyeb. Pope Francis’ emphasis on the nation-state is yet another way to affirm the need for a healthy secularity in our global politics: the affirmation of the necessity for the state to avoid both false technocratic neutrality and theocratic temptations. Pope Francis’ standpoint is global Catholicism in a global world, where the rise of “civilizational states” (China, Russia, India, and Turkey) is an integral part of the current crisis of the international order. In this global world, Pope Francis’ option is for healthy secularity — and not for the dreams of a neo-medieval Christendom where the modern nation-state is too easily dismissed as a fetish.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

User avatar
hugodrax
McMuffins & 'Murica!
McMuffins & 'Murica!
Posts: 23593
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:44 am

tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:44 am
hugodrax wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:16 am
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:00 am
mcommini wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:09 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:01 pm
mcommini wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:40 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:48 am
You might could build some consensus that way, if each other's ultimate salvation is actually your goal and this thing isn't just a game you're hoping to win by telling the other guy "I told you so" upon his eventual demise.

Then again, if I could do that myself I wouldn't have responded. :oops:
I consider the wosbald era of this thread to be the ultimate test against myself in the coliseum of Orthodox convert "triumphalism". I genuinely liked Pope Benedict, who was the pope when I converted to Orthodoxy from Evangelicalism. This post has been redacted from a much longer version, which would have been more on point with your final sentence, but needless to say "I told you so" is, especially on the internet, the final demon we must face.
It sounds like good stuff. "I told you so" is most all of our biggest downfalls, particularly my own. It is only because I recognize this log in my own eye that I dare to remove this splinter from my brothers' eyes. I don't claim to be above doing this. Read my old posts. :oops:

And I heard Wosbald violated the Natural Law with a pony, so we have that, too. Unless its "Fake News." So hard to tell anymore. Still, locking up the stallion tonight. Can't be too careful these days.
I've confirmed the only violation was of felt and consenting adults. Still, the amount of glitter involved is, by all verifiable reports, disturbing.
My only regret is not having just taken a drink to burst spray upon the computer screen when reading that. :rotfl:
Tuttle was wearing the pony suit, amirite?
Just the front half thank God.
Well, if that isnt some LGBTQ, SJ stuff, I don't know what ism
Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth
—Marcus Aurelius

non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

User avatar
wosbald
Lonergan Fan Club President
Lonergan Fan Club President
Posts: 22730
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Contact:

Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:02 pm

+JMJ+

English translation of Vatican response to “Francesco” documentary
Image
Image: Adobe Stock

Just a few minutes ago, Austen Ivereigh tweeted the text of a letter in Spanish from a Vatican official regarding the pope’s statements on homosexuality and same-sex civil unions in the documentary Francesco, writing,
The attached (in Spanish) was sent Oct 30 via a Latin-American nuncio at the request of Sec of State, to provide “some elements for a proper understanding of certain expressions of the Holy Father” in the Francesco doc.
He wrote in the preceding tweet:
Vatican’s Secretariat of State writes to bishops of the world (via nuncios) to brief them on Pope’s civil unions remarks, to show that they refer to “particular arrangements of the state” in respect of same-sex couples, and do not touch on “church doctrine”.
Presumably an official English version will be released at some point. In the meantime, here is our (unofficial) English translation of the text:
TO HELP UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE EXPRESSIONS OF THE POPE IN THE DOCUMENTARY “FRANCESCO”

Some statements contained in the documentary
Francesco by filmmaker Evgeny Afineevsky, have provoked, in the past few days, a variety of reactions and interpretations. Therefore, we are offering some useful points of clarification, with the hope of — per his instruction — providing an adequate comprehension of the words of the Holy Father.

More than a year ago, during an interview, Pope Francis answered two different questions at two different times that, in the aforementioned documentary, were edited and published as a single answer without the proper contextualization, which has generated confusion. The Holy Father had first made a reference to the pastoral need that, within the family, a son or daughter with a homosexual orientation should never be discriminated against. These words refer to this: “Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family. They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it.”

The following paragraph of the Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation
Amoris Laetitia on Love in the Family (2016) can shed greater light on this statement:

The Church makes her own the attitude of the Lord Jesus, who offers his boundless love to each person without exception. During the Synod, we discussed the situation of families whose members include persons who experience same-sex attraction, a situation not easy either for parents or for children. We would like before all else to reaffirm that every person, regardless of sexual orientation, ought to be respected in his or her dignity and treated with consideration, while ‘every sign of unjust discrimination’ is to be carefully avoided, particularly any form of aggression and violence. Such families should be given respectful pastoral guidance, so that those who manifest a homosexual orientation can receive the assistance they need to understand and fully carry out God’s will in their lives (AL 250).


A subsequent question from the interview was in reference to a ten-year-old local law in Argentina on “marriage equality of same-sex couples” and his opposition to them as the then-Archbishop of Buenos Aires in this regard. To this end, Pope Francis has affirmed that “it is an incongruity to speak of homosexual marriage,” adding that ­— in that in the same context — he had spoken about the rights of these people to have certain legal protection: “What we have to have is a civil un𝗂on (
convivencia civil) law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

The Holy Father expressed himself this way during an interview in 2014: “Marriage is between a man and a woman. Secular states want to justify civil unions to regulate different situations of cohabitation, pushed by the demand to regulate economic aspects between persons, such as ensuring health care. It is about pacts of cohabitating of various natures, of which I wouldn’t know how to list the different ways. One needs to see the different cases and evaluate them in their variety” (CNA Translation; for Zenit translation, click here).

Therefore, it is clear that Pope Francis was referring to certain provisions made by states, and certainly not to the doctrine of the Church, which he has reaffirmed numerous times over the years.
Here is the original Spanish text Austen posted on Twitter:

Image

Image

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

Post Reply