I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by Hovannes » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:15 pm

wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:41 am
+JMJ+

Pope Francis calls Trump’s family separation border policy ‘cruelty of the highest form’ [In-Depth]
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Javier, a 30-year-old immigrant from Honduras, kisses his 4-year-old son, William, July 11 in New York when they were reunited after being separated for 55 days during detention at the Texas border. (CNS photo/Lucas Jackson, Reuters)

Pope Francis called the Trump administration policy of separating children at the border “cruelty of the highest form” in a new documentary that premiered in Rome today.

“It’s cruelty, and separating kids from parents goes against natural rights,” the pope says in the documentary “Francesco.” “It’s something a Christian cannot do. It’s cruelty of the highest form.”

Under the Trump administration, U.S. border enforcement officials began separating children from their parents as early as 2017, according to the Associated Press. The administration implemented a zero-tolerance policy in May 2018, leading to more than 2,700 children being separated from their parents in less than a month. That June, a U.S. district judge ordered an end to the practice.

In a new documentary, Pope Francis says separating migrant children from their parents is “something a Christian cannot do. It’s cruelty of the highest form.”

Yet today, three years after being separated, 545 children have still not been united with their parents, according to court-appointed lawyers.

“We know that the separation of children was a willful and calculated strategy to weaponize against vulnerable migrants at the border the most sacred thing they had—their family,” Dylan Corbett, the executive director of the Hope Border Initiative, said in an email to America.

“The revelation that years later we still have not been able to reunite hundreds of families points to the lasting and irreversible damage of this awful moment of moral darkness in our nation’s history,” he said. “We need to remember, make amends and end the cruel strategies of deterrence against migrants in every form they take.”

[…]

Pope Francis also spoke about the construction of a border wall between the countries during the documentary. “And to build walls as if that were a defense. To defend what? Territory? The country’s economy? Or who knows what?” he says. “He who builds walls becomes a prisoner of the walls he builds.”

Ms. Dakin-Grimm, who has represented 75 children separated from their families, said Francis' statements on immigrantion can be traced to the teachings of previous popes, like Leo XIII and Pius XII. In 1952’s “Exsul Familia,” for example, Pius XII wrote that a family’s right to migrate is part of the natural law.

Sometimes, after she gives talks in Catholic settings, people will approach her and say it is the parents fault that they were separated from their children. They should not have brought them to the border in the first place, they say. They do not understand that families, like the Arrendondos, are fleeing to save their lives.

[…]
"Who built the cages, Joe?"
DEUS VULT!

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:31 am

+JMJ+

The futility of “Explaining the pope away” [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image

Signs of an all-too familiar pattern are appearing.

The narrative that the pope didn’t really say what he said seems to be developing in some conservative Catholic circles. We’re still in the midst of the media circus after Pope Francis was revealed to have made some provocative statements in an upcoming documentary, including, “Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family,” and, “What we have to create is a civil un𝗂on law. That way they are legally covered. I stood up for that.”

[…]

Do we really have to go through this again?

My advice to Catholics for whom this is difficult to accept: don’t deny the reality of what Pope Francis very clearly said. For Catholics who are taking refuge in the official status of the 2003 CDF document and the fact that Francis expressed his thoughts informally: you might want to brace yourself for potential disappointment. No, he hasn’t taught this officially — yet. But it’s important to note that this is a prudential matter, and the Church’s approach could very well change. Francis’s position does not violate doctrine, and the present circumstances in the world might prompt an official change in the Church’s approach to this question.

At this point, if you haven’t already done so, I urge you to read the doctrinal justification for Pope Francis’s position by theologians Dawn Eden Goldstein, SThD, and Robert Fastiggi, PhD, that we published yesterday. I believe it reflects the thought of Pope Francis on the matter, and clearly lays out why his position is in alignment with Catholic doctrine.

We are once again seeing signs that we’re headed down the same bumpy road, unfortunately. It results in nothing but needless tension and division in the Church. We’ve seen it happen several times, and it looks like it could very well happen again. Here are the seven phases of Pope Francis frustration:
  • First, Pope Francis says something provocative (“we need to change the teaching on the death penalty,” or “we need to find new ways to integrate those who are divorced and remarried into the life of the Church”).
  • This provokes reactions among conservative Catholics ranging from outrage to frustration and worry. Wary Catholics reassure each other that there’s nothing to it (“he hasn’t taught this formally,” or “it’s just his private opinion”).
  • Next, he teaches something officially (the revision to Catechism section #2267, Amoris Laetitia).
    Then, the same people find workarounds or loopholes that deny the substance of the teaching (“A change to the Catechism isn’t how the pope promulgates magisterial teaching,” or “Well, Amoris can be interpreted in an orthodox way”).
  • Later, Pope Francis explicitly and officially reaffirms what a plain reading of the teaching already said (when he reasserted the inadmissibility of the death penalty in Fratelli Tutti, when he promulgated the Argentine bishops’ guidelines for Amoris Laetitia as authentic Magisterium).
  • When this happens, the same people become extremely disappointed. Typically they will find more excuses and loopholes that allow them to reject the teaching, while still clinging desperately to the idea that they don’t dissent from Church teaching and are entirely orthodox and loyal Catholics.
  • Inevitably, every time this happens, a few more “big names” decide to make some kind of sensational media splash, condemning the pope and his teachings and urging other Catholics that they are right, and Pope Francis is teaching error (or a heretic, or is leading the faithful astray, or whatever).
Please, let’s not go through this again. While we can’t predict the future, I would advise being open to the possibility that what Francis said in the interview may someday be reflected in official Church teaching. We once again are faced with a choice: we can either again fight tooth-and-nail against the Successor of Peter, or we can trust in the Holy Spirit to guide the Church.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:18 am

wosbald wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:31 am
+JMJ+

The futility of “Explaining the pope away” [In-Depth, Opinion]

Please, let’s not go through this again. While we can’t predict the future, I would advise being open to the possibility that what Francis said in the interview may someday be reflected in official Church teaching. We once again are faced with a choice: we can either again fight tooth-and-nail against the Successor of Peter, or we can trust in the Holy Spirit to guide the Church.
I've said it before, somewhere in this thread probably, that the Pope may be a good guy but he's a bad leader. He's divisive and his lack of clarity on fiery issues (that he brings up) only pours on more fuel.

I know a handful of Catholics (not CPS Catholics) who are trusting the Holy Spirit will continue to guide the Church in spite of Francis' leftist efforts. I also know one, my neighbor, who has been so rocked by the Pope that--to his great sorrow--he says he can't even attend Mass any more.

As to advising being open to the possibility that queer livin' may someday be reflected in official Church teaching...well that's an Exhibit A hallmark of progressive Christianity. Mainline Protestantism has already travelled that road.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:17 am

+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:18 am
[…]

I know a handful of Catholics (not CPS Catholics) who are trusting the Holy Spirit will continue to guide the Church in spite of Francis' leftist efforts. I also know one, my neighbor, who has been so rocked by the Pope that--to his great sorrow--he says he can't even attend Mass any more.

[…]
The poor babies.

Image Having the Vapours is not the same as having the Spirit.

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by tuttle » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:24 am

wosbald wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:17 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:18 am
[…]

I know a handful of Catholics (not CPS Catholics) who are trusting the Holy Spirit will continue to guide the Church in spite of Francis' leftist efforts. I also know one, my neighbor, who has been so rocked by the Pope that--to his great sorrow--he says he can't even attend Mass any more.

[…]
The poor babies.

Image Having the Vapours is not the same as having the Spirit.
Must be the Vapours causing them to not see the Spirit progressing the Church toward the possibility of approving butt stuff unions.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by hugodrax » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:48 am

tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:24 am
wosbald wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:17 am
+JMJ+
tuttle wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:18 am
[…]

I know a handful of Catholics (not CPS Catholics) who are trusting the Holy Spirit will continue to guide the Church in spite of Francis' leftist efforts. I also know one, my neighbor, who has been so rocked by the Pope that--to his great sorrow--he says he can't even attend Mass any more.

[…]
The poor babies.

Image Having the Vapours is not the same as having the Spirit.
Must be the Vapours causing them to not see the Spirit progressing the Church toward the possibility of approving butt stuff unions.
Calm down, fellows. It's entirely possible for you both to be incredibly condescending sloganeers ultimately leading souls away from Christ on doctrinal grounds, even if you arrived at your reasons for so doing via alternate intellectual paths.

A double case of "lighten up, Francis". Work with your hands, love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself and realize God loves the other guy more than you ever could. You might could build some consensus that way, if each other's ultimate salvation is actually your goal and this thing isn't just a game you're hoping to win by telling the other guy "I told you so" upon his eventual demise.

Then again, if I could do that myself I wouldn't have responded. :oops:
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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by wosbald » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:19 am

+JMJ+

Subject Header: Economic Magisterium/Integral Ecology/Fratelli Tutti
Intra-Thread Trackbacks: pg 65 / pg 121 / pg 121 / pg 122 / pg 127 / pg 128 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129 / pg 129

Inter-Thread Trackbacks:
"THE CATHOLIC THREAD": pg 119 / pg 119 / pg 119 / pg 119 / pg 151



Misreading Francis on Private Property [In-Depth, Opinion]
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(Credit: Kommerzielle Bilder/iStock)

We have come to know and expect that whenever the pope writes or says anything of significance, he will earn the ire of professional provocateurs. Now, in the eighth year of Francis’s papacy, there’s a certain comforting predictability about the to-and-fro between his expression of Church teaching and the ensuing outrage. We saw this happen when Francis was quoted out of context in his support for civil unions. Also, Taylor Marshall took issue with the number of times Francis used a particular word or phrase in his latest encyclical, Fratelli Tutti, as if this were some secret code that one could use to assess its orthodoxy.

Likewise unsurprising were the comments of those who, with an air of authority, betrayed their lack of charity towards the pope. One issue in particular that has arisen concerns “private property.” Phil Lawler, noted author of Lost Shepherd: How Pope Francis Is Misleading His Flock and other works, composed a five-tweet thread and an article for Catholic Culture in which he claimed that it was “simply impossible to square the Pope’s statements with those of his predecessors.” The problematic statement? Lawler writes, “Pope Leo says the right to private property is inviolable; Pope Francis says it is not inviolable.”

This is a reference to the following statement in the Pope’s new encyclical, which is largely a quote from his 2015 encyclical, Laudato Si’. Francis writes in Fratelli Tutti:
I would observe that “the Christian tradition has never recognized the right to private property as absolute or inviolable, and has stressed the social purpose of all forms of private property”.
This statement can be contrasted with Pope Leo’s statement in Rerum Novarum:
The first and most fundamental principle, therefore, if one would undertake to alleviate the condition of the masses, must be the inviolability of private property.
[…]

… The key issue today is Lawler’s fixation on the word “inviolable.” One pope says private property is not inviolable while another says it is. How can we reconcile this apparent contradiction? Leo is referring to the role of private property in securing the common good. In other words, private property serves a purpose. While the right to private property is a legitimate right, one that Francis himself acknowledges, it is not the primary right. Leo would not disagree.

Recall that Leo wrote expressly against the claim that private property ought not to exist at all — i.e., against communism. In Rerum Novarum, however, Leo further wrote about the state’s role in securing conditions that best advance the possibility for integral development, particularly for the poor, and defended the state’s taxation authority to achieve those ends. These statements are simply irreconcilable if one adopts Lawler’s rigid interpretation of the word “inviolable.” Properly understood, the right to private property is indeed inviolable, but with certain qualifications and under certain conditions. For instance when private property owners renege on their responsibility to assist the poor, the state has an obligation to “remedy the evil,” according to Leo.

Thus, there are claims upon the right to private property, as well as corresponding responsibilities and obligations. Both Francis and Lawler (in 2015 and 2020) acknowledge this when they explicitly reference St. John Paul II’s description of a “social mortgage.” That phrase appeared in his 1987 encyclical, Sollicitudo Rei Socialis. Without using the word “inviolable,” John Paul described this right ordering between the universal destination of goods and private property:
It is necessary to state once more the characteristic principle of Christian social doctrine: the goods of this world are originally meant for all. The right to private property is valid and necessary, but it does not nullify the value of this principle. Private property, in fact, is under a “social mortgage,” which means that it has an intrinsically social function, based upon and justified precisely by the principle of the universal destination of goods.
[…]

Ultimately, Francis upholds Church teaching in Fratelli Tutti, saying:
The right to private property can only be considered a secondary natural right, derived from the principle of the universal destination of created goods.
Readers seeking to explore this beautiful teaching may be interested in reading some expert commentary. For example, the National Catholic Register covered this issue in at least two articles. The first was an interview with David Cloutier of the Catholic University of America. Asked whether Francis and Leo are in conflict, Cloutier responded:
Oh, certainly not. It’s a clear ordering of principles, which is to say that the right of private property is the ordinary way in which we exercise the universal destination of goods. We give people property so that they can be stewards of it. … It is a moral error when I think “This is my property, and I can do what I want with it.” That second part — “I can do what I want with it” is the moral error. No, in fact, to have property is to have responsibility and to think about how to constructively use that property for the good of all.
The second article was another survey of other expert views on the matter who agree that Francis is in line with the Church’s tradition on the matter. In this article, Lawler is quoted as a dissenting “other voice” alongside a representative of the Tradition, Family, Property organization, which has been active in cultivating support against Vatican II and Pope Francis.

[…]

The rigid thinking and reactionary propaganda, characteristic of a certain segment of the Catholic commentariat, could have been avoided. In 2015, Lawler’s piece on Laudato Si’ was remarkably insightful, capturing even the way Francis wrote poetically about the beauty of creation and our role in it. But Lawler’s 2020 article on Fratelli Tutti is superficial and adds nothing to any serious discussion of the encyclical. His faulty analysis will likely cause confusion and mislead his fellow Catholics about actual Church teaching.

[…]

ImageImage

"[T]he emergency of irregular migration has to be met with justice, solidarity and mercy. Forms of collective expulsion, which do not allow for the suitable treatment of individual cases, are unacceptable."
— Pope Francis, Morocco

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Re: I'm Starting to Like This Pope

Post by FredS » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:45 am

wosbald wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:31 am
+JMJ+

The futility of “Explaining the pope away” [In-Depth, Opinion]
Image
Conservative Catholics - "He's not my Pope."

Progressive Catholics - "He's not my President."

Middle-of-the-road Catholics - "Meh. The Pope said what he said. It's not like we look to the Church for guidance anyway. Baptize my baby and have mass on Christmas Eve and we're OK."
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