I'm Starting to Like This Pope

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Post by UncleBob » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:08 am

U.S. Catholics: Up with Francis, disagree with bishops
Pope Francis has made an overwhelmingly positive impression with America’s Catholics, with nearly 70 percent agreeing with the pontiff that the Catholic Church has been too focused, too much of the time with issues relating to sex, according to a new national poll.

“America’s Catholics liked what they heard when Pope Francis said the church should stop talking so much about issues like gay marriage, abortion and contraception,” said Maurice Carroll, director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

America’s Catholics like him, agree that U.S. church has focused too much on abortion, birth control and contraception.

Pope Francis is viewed “very favorably” by 36 percent of America’s Catholics and “favorably” by 53 percent, according to a Quinnipiac University poll taken Sept. 23-29. Just 4 percent of those polled said they have an unfavorable opinion of Pope Francis, the first Jesuit pope and the first pope to come from South America.

“Maybe they were just waiting for a Jesuit: Overwhelmingly, across the demographic board, Catholics — men and women, regular or not-so-regular church-goers, young and old — have a favorable opinion of Pope Francis,” Carroll added.

While viewing Francis favorably, the poll revealed a wide gap between American Catholics and their often ultra-orthodox bishops.
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Post by Del » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:52 am

UncleBob wrote:U.S. Catholics: Up with Francis, disagree with bishops
Pope Francis has made an overwhelmingly positive impression with America’s Catholics, with nearly 70 percent agreeing with the pontiff that the Catholic Church has been too focused, too much of the time with issues relating to sex, according to a new national poll.

“America’s Catholics liked what they heard when Pope Francis said the church should stop talking so much about issues like gay marriage, abortion and contraception,” said Maurice Carroll, director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

America’s Catholics like him, agree that U.S. church has focused too much on abortion, birth control and contraception.

Pope Francis is viewed “very favorably” by 36 percent of America’s Catholics and “favorably” by 53 percent, according to a Quinnipiac University poll taken Sept. 23-29. Just 4 percent of those polled said they have an unfavorable opinion of Pope Francis, the first Jesuit pope and the first pope to come from South America.

“Maybe they were just waiting for a Jesuit: Overwhelmingly, across the demographic board, Catholics — men and women, regular or not-so-regular church-goers, young and old — have a favorable opinion of Pope Francis,” Carroll added.

While viewing Francis favorably, the poll revealed a wide gap between American Catholics and their often ultra-orthodox bishops.
This is the Seattle paper -- a mouthpiece of secular agenda, and no friend of Catholics and our Church.

"often ultra-orthodox bishops"? Puh-lease!

This is just another indicator of something that Rusty keeps reminding us: Many persons who self-identify as "Catholics" don't accept what Jesus has given them in our Church. They only hear what they want to hear, and they want to hear that Pope Francis is a relativist Catholic like themselves.
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Post by UncleBob » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:03 pm

Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:U.S. Catholics: Up with Francis, disagree with bishops
Pope Francis has made an overwhelmingly positive impression with America’s Catholics, with nearly 70 percent agreeing with the pontiff that the Catholic Church has been too focused, too much of the time with issues relating to sex, according to a new national poll.

“America’s Catholics liked what they heard when Pope Francis said the church should stop talking so much about issues like gay marriage, abortion and contraception,” said Maurice Carroll, director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

America’s Catholics like him, agree that U.S. church has focused too much on abortion, birth control and contraception.

Pope Francis is viewed “very favorably” by 36 percent of America’s Catholics and “favorably” by 53 percent, according to a Quinnipiac University poll taken Sept. 23-29. Just 4 percent of those polled said they have an unfavorable opinion of Pope Francis, the first Jesuit pope and the first pope to come from South America.

“Maybe they were just waiting for a Jesuit: Overwhelmingly, across the demographic board, Catholics — men and women, regular or not-so-regular church-goers, young and old — have a favorable opinion of Pope Francis,” Carroll added.

While viewing Francis favorably, the poll revealed a wide gap between American Catholics and their often ultra-orthodox bishops.
This is the Seattle paper -- a mouthpiece of secular agenda, and no friend of Catholics and our Church.

"often ultra-orthodox bishops"? Puh-lease!

This is just another indicator of something that Rusty keeps reminding us: Many persons who self-identify as "Catholics" don't accept what Jesus has given them in our Church. They only hear what they want to hear, and they want to hear that Pope Francis is a relativist Catholic like themselves.
D'oh! I didn't mean to draw the ire of Del! I just meant to post that most USA Catholics like him as well. Still, Del, doesn't it bother you a bit that 70% are "relativist Catholics"? Or are 30% "obdurate Catholic"?
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Post by Rusty » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:52 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:U.S. Catholics: Up with Francis, disagree with bishops
Pope Francis has made an overwhelmingly positive impression with America’s Catholics, with nearly 70 percent agreeing with the pontiff that the Catholic Church has been too focused, too much of the time with issues relating to sex, according to a new national poll.

“America’s Catholics liked what they heard when Pope Francis said the church should stop talking so much about issues like gay marriage, abortion and contraception,” said Maurice Carroll, director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

America’s Catholics like him, agree that U.S. church has focused too much on abortion, birth control and contraception.

Pope Francis is viewed “very favorably” by 36 percent of America’s Catholics and “favorably” by 53 percent, according to a Quinnipiac University poll taken Sept. 23-29. Just 4 percent of those polled said they have an unfavorable opinion of Pope Francis, the first Jesuit pope and the first pope to come from South America.

“Maybe they were just waiting for a Jesuit: Overwhelmingly, across the demographic board, Catholics — men and women, regular or not-so-regular church-goers, young and old — have a favorable opinion of Pope Francis,” Carroll added.

While viewing Francis favorably, the poll revealed a wide gap between American Catholics and their often ultra-orthodox bishops.
This is the Seattle paper -- a mouthpiece of secular agenda, and no friend of Catholics and our Church.

"often ultra-orthodox bishops"? Puh-lease!

This is just another indicator of something that Rusty keeps reminding us: Many persons who self-identify as "Catholics" don't accept what Jesus has given them in our Church. They only hear what they want to hear, and they want to hear that Pope Francis is a relativist Catholic like themselves.
D'oh! I didn't mean to draw the ire of Del! I just meant to post that most USA Catholics like him as well. Still, Del, doesn't it bother you a bit that 70% are "relativist Catholics"? Or are 30% "obdurate Catholic"?
You really have to do something to curb that tendency to probe and then deny that it was intentional. :lol: Who did you think would respond? This is almost a tailor-made Del-provocation. You posted it gleefully, be honest.

Del, I am the least qualified to suggest who is a Catholic by any measure. Commenting on the polls and the cited reasons doesn't mean that Catholicism should propose a different standard. Why do you think Pope Francis is sending messages through the media and for whom? I think the most likely to respond with interest are Catholics and ex-Catholics.
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Post by UncleBob » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:55 pm

Rusty wrote:
UncleBob wrote:
Del wrote:
UncleBob wrote:U.S. Catholics: Up with Francis, disagree with bishops
Pope Francis has made an overwhelmingly positive impression with America’s Catholics, with nearly 70 percent agreeing with the pontiff that the Catholic Church has been too focused, too much of the time with issues relating to sex, according to a new national poll.

“America’s Catholics liked what they heard when Pope Francis said the church should stop talking so much about issues like gay marriage, abortion and contraception,” said Maurice Carroll, director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

America’s Catholics like him, agree that U.S. church has focused too much on abortion, birth control and contraception.

Pope Francis is viewed “very favorably” by 36 percent of America’s Catholics and “favorably” by 53 percent, according to a Quinnipiac University poll taken Sept. 23-29. Just 4 percent of those polled said they have an unfavorable opinion of Pope Francis, the first Jesuit pope and the first pope to come from South America.

“Maybe they were just waiting for a Jesuit: Overwhelmingly, across the demographic board, Catholics — men and women, regular or not-so-regular church-goers, young and old — have a favorable opinion of Pope Francis,” Carroll added.

While viewing Francis favorably, the poll revealed a wide gap between American Catholics and their often ultra-orthodox bishops.
This is the Seattle paper -- a mouthpiece of secular agenda, and no friend of Catholics and our Church.

"often ultra-orthodox bishops"? Puh-lease!

This is just another indicator of something that Rusty keeps reminding us: Many persons who self-identify as "Catholics" don't accept what Jesus has given them in our Church. They only hear what they want to hear, and they want to hear that Pope Francis is a relativist Catholic like themselves.
D'oh! I didn't mean to draw the ire of Del! I just meant to post that most USA Catholics like him as well. Still, Del, doesn't it bother you a bit that 70% are "relativist Catholics"? Or are 30% "obdurate Catholic"?
You really have to do something to curb that tendency to probe and then deny that it was intentional. :lol: Who did you think would respond? This is almost a tailor-made Del-provocation. You posted it gleefully, be honest.

Del, I am the least qualified to suggest who is a Catholic by any measure. Commenting on the polls and the cited reasons doesn't mean that Catholicism should propose a different standard. Why do you think Pope Francis is sending messages through the media and for whom? I think the most likely to respond with interest are Catholics and ex-Catholics.
Nope. Not an intentional provocation.
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Post by GiantNinja » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:01 pm

I wonder how many American Catholics (and non-Catholics) truly 'like' this Pope, and how many 'like' the leader they incorrectly believe him to be.

E.g., the Pope has (correctly) stated that the Church's teaching on contraception is not a first principle. This was (incorrectly) reported as 'don't worry about it'. He has (correctly) stated that abortion is a grave moral evil that must be stopped. This wasn't reported at all.

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Post by UncleBob » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:11 pm

The funniest line in the article (to me): "Maybe they were just waiting for a Jesuit..."
"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh." - Robert A. Heinlein

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Post by Del » Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:21 pm

Rusty wrote:
UncleBob wrote:D'oh! I didn't mean to draw the ire of Del! I just meant to post that most USA Catholics like him as well. Still, Del, doesn't it bother you a bit that 70% are "relativist Catholics"? Or are 30% "obdurate Catholic"?
You really have to do something to curb that tendency to probe and then deny that it was intentional. :lol: Who did you think would respond? This is almost a tailor-made Del-provocation. You posted it gleefully, be honest.

Del, I am the least qualified to suggest who is a Catholic by any measure. Commenting on the polls and the cited reasons doesn't mean that Catholicism should propose a different standard. Why do you think Pope Francis is sending messages through the media and for whom? I think the most likely to respond with interest are Catholics and ex-Catholics.
Well played, both of you!

John Paul II pegged the problem a few decades ago: There are millions of baptized Christians who do not know Jesus and have no relationship with them. So JPII called for a "New Evangelization" to reach these people. He asked the faithful laity to lead this effort. He urged us to use the new media in our outreach.

And so now we have Catholic TV, radio, bloggers, and campus missionaries. New Catholic schools and colleges are popping up everywhere. We have a surge of young people leading and growing activity in the "social media."

At the same time, the secular media are calling us "conservative Catholics" and "ultra-orthodox." They are genuinely afraid of the growing threat of faithful Catholicism. They seem to hope that the 70% of folks who self-identify as CATHOLIC (even though most of them never see the inside of a church) will out-vote the faithful Catholics into accepting contraception, abortion, gay marriage, and Obama-stuff.

Into this fray steps Pope Francis! He is joining the laity of the New Evangelization.... speaking to the world (and not just to Catholics). This has been wonderful. We Catholics of the New Evangelization are loving him!

And the secular media -- they don't understand Francis any more than they could understand JP2 or B16. But Francis is engaging them directly, and he is unafraid of how the editors and bloggers might twist his meaning. Both JP2 and B16 stood down quietly after the secular media gave them each a good pope-slap. Francis seems ready to stick out his neck, time and again, and let them have the other cheek.

Benedict has praised the charisms of Francis, saying that he understands now why the Holy Spirit led him to resign. Francis is the man for our time.

I do not have the foresight to see what Francis and his interaction with the secular media will bring.
- Will the ex-Catholics come home?
- Will the lukewarm Catholics repent of their sins and know Christ?
- Will the bishops get off of their duffs and lead us?
- Will the faithful Catholics set the world on fire?
- Will the world turn around and repent -- or turn up the persecution and make martyrs?

I don't know.... But I know that Francis means to find out!
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Post by Roadmaster » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Del wrote:But I know that Francis means to find out!
And sooner rather that later.
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Post by Rusty » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:25 pm

Del wrote:
Rusty wrote:
UncleBob wrote:D'oh! I didn't mean to draw the ire of Del! I just meant to post that most USA Catholics like him as well. Still, Del, doesn't it bother you a bit that 70% are "relativist Catholics"? Or are 30% "obdurate Catholic"?
You really have to do something to curb that tendency to probe and then deny that it was intentional. :lol: Who did you think would respond? This is almost a tailor-made Del-provocation. You posted it gleefully, be honest.

Del, I am the least qualified to suggest who is a Catholic by any measure. Commenting on the polls and the cited reasons doesn't mean that Catholicism should propose a different standard. Why do you think Pope Francis is sending messages through the media and for whom? I think the most likely to respond with interest are Catholics and ex-Catholics.
Well played, both of you!

John Paul II pegged the problem a few decades ago: There are millions of baptized Christians who do not know Jesus and have no relationship with them. So JPII called for a "New Evangelization" to reach these people. He asked the faithful laity to lead this effort. He urged us to use the new media in our outreach.

And so now we have Catholic TV, radio, bloggers, and campus missionaries. New Catholic schools and colleges are popping up everywhere. We have a surge of young people leading and growing activity in the "social media."

At the same time, the secular media are calling us "conservative Catholics" and "ultra-orthodox." They are genuinely afraid of the growing threat of faithful Catholicism. They seem to hope that the 70% of folks who self-identify as CATHOLIC (even though most of them never see the inside of a church) will out-vote the faithful Catholics into accepting contraception, abortion, gay marriage, and Obama-stuff.

Into this fray steps Pope Francis! He is joining the laity of the New Evangelization.... speaking to the world (and not just to Catholics). This has been wonderful. We Catholics of the New Evangelization are loving him!

And the secular media -- they don't understand Francis any more than they could understand JP2 or B16. But Francis is engaging them directly, and he is unafraid of how the editors and bloggers might twist his meaning. Both JP2 and B16 stood down quietly after the secular media gave them each a good pope-slap. Francis seems ready to stick out his neck, time and again, and let them have the other cheek.

Benedict has praised the charisms of Francis, saying that he understands now why the Holy Spirit led him to resign. Francis is the man for our time.

I do not have the foresight to see what Francis and his interaction with the secular media will bring.
- Will the ex-Catholics come home?
- Will the lukewarm Catholics repent of their sins and know Christ?
- Will the bishops get off of their duffs and lead us?
- Will the faithful Catholics set the world on fire?
- Will the world turn around and repent -- or turn up the persecution and make martyrs?

I don't know.... But I know that Francis means to find out!
You really need a jpg of your signature. Some of your posts are works of art. They deserve signing and numbered editions.

The secular media did ??what?? to JPII & B16!? I think not. JPII passed away and B16, yes he did step down, but I think secular media had nothing to do with either. How many other real Popes stepped down? (This is a trick question).
a) all of them
b) none but B16
c) none of the above

Whenever I look at the Pew forum stats about Catholics I think it might be time to build a museum to Catholicism. But then you post and I think maybe they're healthier than they appear?
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Post by Irish-Dane » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:02 am

Rusty wrote:Whenever I look at the Pew forum stats about Catholics I think it might be time to build a museum to Catholicism. But then you post and I think maybe they're healthier than they appear?
Hopeful, possibly desperate, optimism?
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Post by tuttle » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:09 am

Rusty wrote:Whenever I look at the Pew forum stats about Catholics I think it might be time to build a museum to Catholicism. But then you post and I think maybe they're healthier than they appear?
This reminds me when I first 'met' Del on here and he was shocked that Calvinism was still around. I think we all shape a story about the outside world. Atheists think Catholicism is almost dead. Catholics think Calvinism is almost dead. Calvinists think everyone is spiritually dead. Zombies rule the world. :wink:
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Post by Eric » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:22 am

tuttle wrote:
Rusty wrote:Whenever I look at the Pew forum stats about Catholics I think it might be time to build a museum to Catholicism. But then you post and I think maybe they're healthier than they appear?
This reminds me when I first 'met' Del on here and he was shocked that Calvinism was still around. I think we all shape a story about the outside world. Atheists think Catholicism is almost dead. Catholics think Calvinism is almost dead. Calvinists think everyone is spiritually dead.
That is probably quite true.

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Post by Irish-Dane » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:33 am

Eric wrote:
tuttle wrote:
Rusty wrote:Whenever I look at the Pew forum stats about Catholics I think it might be time to build a museum to Catholicism. But then you post and I think maybe they're healthier than they appear?
This reminds me when I first 'met' Del on here and he was shocked that Calvinism was still around. I think we all shape a story about the outside world. Atheists think Catholicism is almost dead. Catholics think Calvinism is almost dead. Calvinists think everyone is spiritually dead.
That is probably quite true.
Is probably quite true similar to a definite maybe???
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Post by TNLawPiper » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:37 am

Irish-Dane wrote:
Rusty wrote:Whenever I look at the Pew forum stats about Catholics I think it might be time to build a museum to Catholicism. But then you post and I think maybe they're healthier than they appear?
Hopeful, possibly desperate, optimism?
People -- especially young people -- are still converting to Catholicism. There might be a net loss, but I'm interested to see how the trends look in ten years. My parish is still full every Sunday morning.

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Post by UncleBob » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:43 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Irish-Dane wrote:
Rusty wrote:Whenever I look at the Pew forum stats about Catholics I think it might be time to build a museum to Catholicism. But then you post and I think maybe they're healthier than they appear?
Hopeful, possibly desperate, optimism?
People -- especially young people -- are still converting to Catholicism. There might be a net loss, but I'm interested to see how the trends look in ten years. My parish is still full every Sunday morning.
For me, the real question is whether the bulk of those converts are coming from people in other denominations.
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Post by TNLawPiper » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:47 am

UncleBob wrote:
TNLawPiper wrote:
Irish-Dane wrote:
Rusty wrote:Whenever I look at the Pew forum stats about Catholics I think it might be time to build a museum to Catholicism. But then you post and I think maybe they're healthier than they appear?
Hopeful, possibly desperate, optimism?
People -- especially young people -- are still converting to Catholicism. There might be a net loss, but I'm interested to see how the trends look in ten years. My parish is still full every Sunday morning.
For me, the real question is whether the bulk of those converts are coming from people in other denominations.
It seems so. Then again, I know many Catholics are going to Protestant and Evangelical denominations. Those two notions perhaps make the numbers a little more complicated than they seem.

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Post by Irish-Dane » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:47 am

GiantNinja wrote:I wonder how many American Catholics (and non-Catholics) truly 'like' this Pope, and how many 'like' the leader they incorrectly believe him to be.

E.g., the Pope has (correctly) stated that the Church's teaching on contraception is not a first principle. This was (incorrectly) reported as 'don't worry about it'. He has (correctly) stated that abortion is a grave moral evil that must be stopped. This wasn't reported at all.
Good point Will. I've taken almost everything I've heard and read with a grain of salt. Soundbites and snippets can never tell the whole story, and context/content is screwed around with everyday within the media as we know it. Even videos I've seen of the Pope speaking are followed up with a diagnosis and re-wording by the anchor/station/network, and guess what people remember? For the sake of this thread or its point, I'm not saying I like or dislike the Pope, and I certainly wouldn't come to either of those conclusions based on anything TV had to offer.
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Post by Del » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:47 am

tuttle wrote:
Rusty wrote:Whenever I look at the Pew forum stats about Catholics I think it might be time to build a museum to Catholicism. But then you post and I think maybe they're healthier than they appear?
This reminds me when I first 'met' Del on here and he was shocked that Calvinism was still around. I think we all shape a story about the outside world. Atheists think Catholicism is almost dead. Catholics think Calvinism is almost dead. Calvinists think everyone is spiritually dead. Zombies rule the world. :wink:
This made me laugh!!!!!
Rusty wrote:The secular media did ??what?? to JPII & B16!? I think not. JPII passed away and B16, yes he did step down, but I think secular media had nothing to do with either. How many other real Popes stepped down? (This is a trick question).
a) all of them
b) none but B16
c) none of the above
The secular media gave our previous popes both a slap that made them gun-shy about inviting the secular media into dialogue.

Early in his reign, JPII laid a censure upon Hans Kung -- a particularly outspoken dissident theologian. Kung was banned from teaching at any Catholic college or university, anywhere in the world.

The back-lash was brutal. JPII was called "draconian," of course, and "heartless" and "dictatorial" and so forth. He was the embodiment of everything that was wrong with the Catholic Church. Kung became a hero on the dissident speaking circuit, an inspiration to the liberal/dissident Religious Sisters, etc.

We learned that when we try to use direct discipline against persons giving scandal, the world makes heroes of the villains -- and we lose our ability to dialogue. This is why Pelosi and Sebelius and Biden haven't been slapped with the excommunications that they so desperately need. We want to help them with loving discipline, but the secular world will only bolster them in their sin and further obscure the hope that Catholicism offers.

Benedict had his Regensburg Lecture, in which he made comments that were critical of Islam. To be sure, he was carefully quoting a 14th Byzantine Emperor/philospher in context, but that context was lost in the secular story. At that time, the secular media were gunning for The Panzer Pope, and they thought they had him.

Both popes were pretty gun-shy after those events.

Francis is doing something new. He is engaging the media without fear. He knows they are going to misunderstand him and twist his words, but he does not seem likely to disengage because of this. It looks like he intends to plunge forward.
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Post by Cleon » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:48 am

GiantNinja wrote:I wonder how many American Catholics (and non-Catholics) truly 'like' this Pope, and how many 'like' the leader they incorrectly believe him to be.

E.g., the Pope has (correctly) stated that the Church's teaching on contraception is not a first principle. This was (incorrectly) reported as 'don't worry about it'. He has (correctly) stated that abortion is a grave moral evil that must be stopped. This wasn't reported at all.
I guess this is the problem I have with the new Pope: He's letting the media run all over him. He's casting pearls before swine and they (the media) are trampling them under foot and rending the Church. This isn't good. Maybe Pope Francis is a bad communicator, or he just gives people too much credit? Maybe he's more crafty than it appears? Maybe it can be chalked up to inexperience in dealing with the media? I don't know. But I cringe every time I read about what Pope Francis says because it's being misinterpreted and I can see why. His answers are not straight forward answers. When you're dealing with people that call evil good and good evil you shouldn't give nuanced answers like that, IMO. They can't handle it and I think it does more harm to them than good. The last thing they need is to feel justified in their thinking. It's deadly.

Also, I admire Catholic moral theology, for the most part, and thank God for the work the RCC has done dealing with a whole host of hard moral issues. I fear that any positive momentum concerning Catholic and conservative Protestant relations might go backwards because of this Pope. I'd hate to see that.

All this, of course, is from the outside looking in. Put bluntly, I don't have the respect for Pope Francis that I did for Pope Benedict. I wish I did. I'm sure Pope Francis is a nice man with good intentions. Pope Benedict, from what I know of him, was clear and gave very little room for misinterpretation while being loving at the same time. I respected that.

I haven't read through the whole thread so forgive me if I'm rambling about stuff that's already been said.
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven" - Jesus

"More people need to put their big boy britches on." - JMG

"Dang, a pipe slap." - JimVH

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