Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

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Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:01 pm

I've been trying to wrap my brain around what actually happened late last week in Pittsburgh, PA when a police officer used deadly force to prevent an African American teen from escaping arrest. Some of you no doubt are familiar with the story. The teen who died was a passenger in a vehicle that matched witness description of a vehicle involved in a drive by shooting that took place only about 15 minutes prior. Police spotted the vehicle and it had a blown out by gunshot rear window. Police stopped the vehicle and exited their patrol car weapons drawn. They just placed the driver face down in hand cuffs when the two passengers sprinted away. One was shot three times in the back and later died at the hospital. Police say they later found in the deceased suspects pocket, an empty semi-automatic weapon magazine and on the floor of the suspect vehicle two guns. It's not clear whether they had located those guns before or after the shooting. It seems to me that would have been- or should have been--one of the first things the officers sought diligently to determine. Whether they were armed.

Pennsylvania law allows deadly force in an arrest only when the officer believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or others.

That’s the general rule, but there is another.....

Deadly force can be used when force is necessary to prevent an escape and
(1) the person to be arrested has committed a forcible felony, or
(2) he’s attempting to escape and possesses a deadly weapon, or
(3) he will endanger others if not arrested right away.

If you were the District Attorney in this case what would you do? Would you charge the officer with a crime?

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Deceased 17 year old Antwon Rose
Last edited by Goose55 on Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:31 pm

Ain't touching this one on the public boards, but I do think the situation is worth consideration and discussion.

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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by StoicDetective » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:46 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:Ain't touching this one on the public boards, but I do think the situation is worth consideration and discussion.
Image️ ... agreed.

Might be lawful .... but looks awful.

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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by FredS » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:07 pm

Yes, it was a tragic thing, that boy being shot and killed.

Do you realize though, how you hindered your cause (I assume you think he should not have been shot and killed) by listing four conditions when an officer can use deadly force and that all four were met in this case?

The teen attempted to murder someone in a drive-by 15 minutes before the cops shot him. Surely you don't expect the driver did the shooting and then asked the unsuspecting passenger to put his empty weapon in his pocket? The cops had a description of the vehicle and the occupants and then roll up on a vehicle with occupants that matched the description and had been shot up. If it walks like a duck.

So, it's plain that
1. The officer believed that such force was necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or others. The guy had just tried to kill someone a few minutes earlier after all.
2. The suspect would have been arrested for suspicion of a felony. The guy had just tried to kill someone a few minutes earlier after all.
3. The suspect was attempting to escape and possessed a deadly weapon. He'd just used it to try to kill someone a few minutes earlier after all.
4. The suspect would endanger others if not arrested right away. He'd just tried to kill someone a few minutes earlier after all.

If I were the DA I'd certainly investigate the police shooting. I'd also charge the dead kid with attempted murder, evading arrest, not following lawful orders, possession of an illegal weapon, and anything else I could think of to make sure the community understands this was just some innocent 17 year old kid out for a walk in the park that afternoon.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:34 pm

FredS wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:07 pm
Yes, it was a tragic thing, that boy being shot and killed.

Do you realize though, how you hindered your cause (I assume you think he should not have been shot and killed) by listing four conditions when an officer can use deadly force and that all four were met in this case?

The teen attempted to murder someone in a drive-by 15 minutes before the cops shot him. Surely you don't expect the driver did the shooting and then asked the unsuspecting passenger to put his empty weapon in his pocket? The cops had a description of the vehicle and the occupants and then roll up on a vehicle with occupants that matched the description and had been shot up. If it walks like a duck.

So, it's plain that
1. The officer believed that such force was necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to himself or others. The guy had just tried to kill someone a few minutes earlier after all.
2. The suspect would have been arrested for suspicion of a felony. The guy had just tried to kill someone a few minutes earlier after all.
3. The suspect was attempting to escape and possessed a deadly weapon. He'd just used it to try to kill someone a few minutes earlier after all.
4. The suspect would endanger others if not arrested right away. He'd just tried to kill someone a few minutes earlier after all.

If I were the DA I'd certainly investigate the police shooting. I'd also charge the dead kid with attempted murder, evading arrest, not following lawful orders, possession of an illegal weapon, and anything else I could think of to make sure the community understands this was just some innocent 17 year old kid out for a walk in the park that afternoon.
Yes, but it's unclear as to why the boy and the other passenger were not immediately handcuffed and their persons and vehicle searched. They could well have thrown those guns out the window after the drive by shooting. But with the two passengers cuffed, they would not have been able to flee. Ever try and run with your hands cuffed behind you? One's sense of balance in running is greatly hindered.

With the suspects searched and weapons found, there would have been no reason to shoot to kill. Reports state the officers only found the empty clip in the deceased pocket and the guns in the car AFTER the suspect was killed.

So, it almost appears as though the officers set these guys up. Or they were very very inexperienced.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by FredS » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:10 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:34 pm
Yes, but it's unclear as to why the boy and the other passenger were not immediately handcuffed and their persons and vehicle searched.
Uh, I don't know, perhaps because he FOODTRUCKING fled?!? Ever try to handcuff a 17 year old boy while he's running away? Catching (or stopping) an armed murder suspect from shooting anyone else rates just a notch or two above searching a vehicle.

Why do you BLAME THE COPS FIRST? Do you know the facts of this case? The suspects were suspected of a drive by shooting. They KILLED OR ATTEMPTED TO KILL PEOPLE with no regard to innocents. And you blame the police for trying to stop an armed person, suspected of attempted murder, could have ran around the corner, loaded his semi-auto, then come back to kill the cops and release his buddies? Does it even occur that he might take some old lady hostage and step back out of the alley with his gun at her head to gain the release of his handcuffed friends.

You're putting this on the cops - why didn't they handcuff him, were they ill-trained and inexperienced and (this is a peach) did they set up those poor boys?

Until I know otherwise, I'll believe the bad guy is the one who orchestrated and controlled this whole sequence of events.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by FredS » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:51 pm

CLARIFICATION:
I misread the OP and believed the suspect ran with a semi-auto weapon when he had only an empty magazine. Based on that, my assumptions that he posed an actual and immediate threat to others were wrong.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Bloodhound » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:40 pm

I normally stay out of these discussions, hell most of the time I don't read them. But I read this one and I will say this...It would be wonderful if things played out as slow as we read on the interweb or as the reporter on tv describes it. On the street it happens in an instant, the blink of an eye. Three suspects known to be armed and dangerous...things happen very very fast and Monday morning quarterbacking is the responsibility of the agency chief and the district attorney and that investigation will take days and maybe weeks and the information, the real information based on the evidence and the body cam footage and the dash camera footage will be held until that investigation is complete...the news media wasn't there and their reports are bits and pieces of information and speculation and the jumping to conclusions...

Please don't be quick to judge the actions and intensions of officers who run towards the guys with the guns, towards, the shots fired towards the danger, so that the citizens and the innocent can be safe.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by DepartedLight » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:46 pm

StoicDetective wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:46 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:Ain't touching this one on the public boards, but I do think the situation is worth consideration and discussion.
Image️ ... agreed.

Might be lawful .... but looks awful.

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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:50 pm

Bloodhound wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:40 pm
I normally stay out of these discussions, hell most of the time I don't read them. But I read this one and I will say this...It would be wonderful if things played out as slow as we read on the interweb or as the reporter on tv describes it. On the street it happens in an instant, the blink of an eye. Three suspects known to be armed and dangerous...things happen very very fast and Monday morning quarterbacking is the responsibility of the agency chief and the district attorney and that investigation will take days and maybe weeks and the information, the real information based on the evidence and the body cam footage and the dash camera footage will be held until that investigation is complete...the news media wasn't there and their reports are bits and pieces of information and speculation and the jumping to conclusions...

Please don't be quick to judge the actions and intensions of officers who run towards the guys with the guns, towards, the shots fired towards the danger, so that the citizens and the innocent can be safe.
I'm sorry if my questions appear as judgments. I am only seeking to understand why what happened, happened. BTW, body cam and the dash cameras were not running.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by FredS » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:37 pm

Where the hell are our moderators? This thread has been alive for 6 1/2 hrs.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:49 pm

FredS wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:37 pm
Where the hell are our moderators? This thread has been alive for 6 1/2 hrs.
This topic need not get political. It hasn't so far.

As I've continued to ponder this tragic event, the 2 officers could have used some help. The 2nd car only arrived just as the shooting occurred. Of course they had probable cause to stop that vehicle, and to believe they were armed. But one can only search and cuff one at a time.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by StoicDetective » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:09 pm

Bloodhound wrote:I normally stay out of these discussions, hell most of the time I don't read them. But I read this one and I will say this...It would be wonderful if things played out as slow as we read on the interweb or as the reporter on tv describes it. On the street it happens in an instant, the blink of an eye. Three suspects known to be armed and dangerous...things happen very very fast and Monday morning quarterbacking is the responsibility of the agency chief and the district attorney and that investigation will take days and maybe weeks and the information, the real information based on the evidence and the body cam footage and the dash camera footage will be held until that investigation is complete...the news media wasn't there and their reports are bits and pieces of information and speculation and the jumping to conclusions...

Please don't be quick to judge the actions and intensions of officers who run towards the guys with the guns, towards, the shots fired towards the danger, so that the citizens and the innocent can be safe.
I'm gonna 'piggy back' off Bloodhound: ...

A show of hands, please, how many of us have to make to make life and death decisions in split seconds with minimal amount of information? (It is rehortical. Don't answer.) BTW, if you are a concealed firearms carrier you're almost in the same boat.

This might help 'Graham vs. Conner' (see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_v._Connor)

I encourage anyone to seek out a ride along with a patrol 'Blue Suiter'. From the start of a shift to the end and not just once.

There is also the neurological tunnel vision that happens in a fight or flight situation. Body cameras don't and can't capture this pyschological state. I.e. when a third party views the camera footage it is easy to say "can't he see that the guy is unarmed?"

... I'm off my soap box. Maybe.

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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by DepartedLight » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:29 pm

FredS wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:37 pm
Where the hell are our moderators? This thread has been alive for 6 1/2 hrs.
The man has a valid point.

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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Del » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:54 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:49 pm
FredS wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:37 pm
Where the hell are our moderators? This thread has been alive for 6 1/2 hrs.
This topic need not get political. It hasn't so far.

As I've continued to ponder this tragic event, the 2 officers could have used some help. The 2nd car only arrived just as the shooting occurred. Of course they had probable cause to stop that vehicle, and to believe they were armed. But one can only search and cuff one at a time.
There hasn't been any evidence of "politics" thus far. No need for moderation.

There will be an investigation, of course. Until facts determine otherwise, I am trusting that the police officers acted as prudently as necessary in dealing with fleeing suspects who were highly likely to be armed and violent. No one ever wants to shoot at a couple of teenagers.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:19 pm

Del wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:54 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:49 pm
FredS wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:37 pm
Where the hell are our moderators? This thread has been alive for 6 1/2 hrs.
This topic need not get political. It hasn't so far.

As I've continued to ponder this tragic event, the 2 officers could have used some help. The 2nd car only arrived just as the shooting occurred. Of course they had probable cause to stop that vehicle, and to believe they were armed. But one can only search and cuff one at a time.
There hasn't been any evidence of "politics" thus far. No need for moderation.

There will be an investigation, of course. Until facts determine otherwise, I am trusting that the police officers acted as prudently as necessary in dealing with fleeing suspects who were highly likely to be armed and violent. No one ever wants to shoot at a couple of teenagers.
Yeah. It's a bad deal all around. TNLawPiper posted that the situation is worth consideration and discussion and I'm glad we are doing that. It really helps because it's disturbing to see these things happening out there.

I am imagining being a fly on the wall. The Officers get out of their patrol car guns drawn, as they should. Because backup has not yet arrived, they can only deal w/ one at at time so they order the driver to get out face down to be patted down & cuffed, while ordering the other two to remain in the vehicle. And then the other two, very foolishly seek to escape.

The Officers had every reason to believe that these fellows had just minutes before, been involved in a very serious crime: murder in a drive by shooting. I am beginning to lean in the direction of action warranted.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by tuttle » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:22 am

DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:29 pm
FredS wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:37 pm
Where the hell are our moderators? This thread has been alive for 6 1/2 hrs.
The man has a valid point.
Since Skip, Pepik, and Hugo all stepped down it seems UB is the new ban enforcer in town. My conjecture is he's too busy aiming his guns at wos and Del to worry about threads like this. Besides, we're all big boys. I think we can handle it. Don't let the ban make us think we can't.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by UncleBob » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:09 am

FredS wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:37 pm
Where the hell are our moderators? This thread has been alive for 6 1/2 hrs.
I have been reading. No politics yet.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by UncleBob » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:10 am

tuttle wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:22 am
DepartedLight wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:29 pm
FredS wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:37 pm
Where the hell are our moderators? This thread has been alive for 6 1/2 hrs.
The man has a valid point.
Since Skip, Pepik, and Hugo all stepped down it seems UB is the new ban enforcer in town. My conjecture is he's too busy aiming his guns at wos and Del to worry about threads like this. Besides, we're all big boys. I think we can handle it. Don't let the ban make us think we can't.
You seem to be the only one "aiming his guns" at anyone.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by coco » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:22 am

I've been reading with one finger on the delete button.
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