Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Cleon » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:49 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:33 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:43 pm
It's really such a pity that the young man decided to flee because he had nothing wrong. He would have been released and slept in his own bed at home that night. Such a tragedy.

Video surveillance confirms it was the youth in the back seat of that car that had been the shooter at the drive by shooting. Perhaps it was this "friend" in the back seat that convinced him to run with him.
Being in the front seat during a drive-by murder is enough to get him charged with accessory or conspiracy, at the very least. He knew he'd be doing time if caught, which is why he ran. It was an instinct I'm sure most people would feel at such a young age.
Will things like instinctual behavior play a part in how this washes out in court? I'm thinking, at the core, both parties acted on basic instincts. The officer, though, had additional training to overcome his, while the kid has probably been told most of his life to not trust the police.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by wosbald » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:25 am

+JMJ+
FredS wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:22 am
[…]

… Since I've never been a black teenager or a single mother I should be silent?
Since I've never been FredS, I dunno.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:50 am

The two that attempted escape did so as they saw that as their only chance to get away. The only Officer at the scene had been securing the driver. I wonder how much the boy that was shot and killed knew about that ride along he went on. Yet, there were two guns in the car as the Officer was cuffing the driver on the pavement. A very dangerous situation there and the Officer knew it.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:47 am

Shot in the back: When can police fire on fleeing suspects?

"The need to somehow demonstrate what was inside an officer's head when he fired and to prove that an officer committed a crime beyond a reasonable doubt leaves little hope that an officer will get charged, said Chicago-based civil rights attorney Andrew M. Stroth. He said he often tells that to families he represents. And even if an officer is charged, he braces them for the difficulty of obtaining a conviction."

MICHAEL TARM Associated Press, 6/29/18

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns- ... story.html
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by venator260 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:09 pm

My Facebook newsfeed has been full of this event over the past few days. Two items that haven't been mentioned:

- Two Pittsburgh news stations had stated there was evidence tying Rose to the earlier drive-by. This was incorrect. I haven't read anything that tied the occupants of the car or the car to the earlier shooting, other than being a grey Cobalt. I'm open to reading another take; my Pittsburgh friends all lean liberal, and I can't find a news article that sums up what is known thus far.

-The officer involve has a questionable record at past departments.

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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by FredS » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 pm

venator260 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:09 pm
My Facebook newsfeed has been full of this event over the past few days. Two items that haven't been mentioned:

- Two Pittsburgh news stations had stated there was evidence tying Rose to the earlier drive-by. This was incorrect. I haven't read anything that tied the occupants of the car or the car to the earlier shooting, other than being a grey Cobalt. I'm open to reading another take; my Pittsburgh friends all lean liberal, and I can't find a news article that sums up what is known thus far.

-The officer involve has a questionable record at past departments.
Maybe you shouldn't rely on facebook for your news. Here's a CNN Report.

"Police obtained surveillance video from the scene and collected shell casings from .45- and .40-caliber weapons. The video showed a black man in a dark shirt roll down the Cruze's rear passenger window and open fire with a handgun. . .
A man on the sidewalk with the gunshot victim returned fire. . .
About a mile and a half away [from the scene of the drive-by], officers responded to the scene where Rosfeld had pulled over a light gold Cruze with its rear window broken and with two bullet holes, one in the trunk and one in the front passenger door, the complaint said." [Note that witness' at the drive-by described the vehicle as a gold Cruze, not a grey Cobalt as your source reported.]

Read the text I quoted from CNN again. The car make and color matched witness descriptions. It was in the vicinity of the shooting. It had the back window shot out and two additional bullet holes. How in the world can a reasonable person not understand that there was ample evidence for the police to pull over and question the occupants of the car?

Police found a stolen .40 cal glock in the car that has been matched to shell casing found at the drive-by scene. The rear passenger (who also fled) has since been arrested "and will be formally charged with aggravated assault, possession of a firearm by a minor, receiving stolen property, persons not to possess firearms and criminal attempt in the North Braddock [the drive by] shooting. . ."

Crystal clear that this was the car and occupants involved in the earlier shooting.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:19 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 pm
venator260 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:09 pm
My Facebook newsfeed has been full of this event over the past few days. Two items that haven't been mentioned:

- Two Pittsburgh news stations had stated there was evidence tying Rose to the earlier drive-by. This was incorrect. I haven't read anything that tied the occupants of the car or the car to the earlier shooting, other than being a grey Cobalt. I'm open to reading another take; my Pittsburgh friends all lean liberal, and I can't find a news article that sums up what is known thus far.

-The officer involve has a questionable record at past departments.
Maybe you shouldn't rely on facebook for your news. Here's a CNN Report.

"Police obtained surveillance video from the scene and collected shell casings from .45- and .40-caliber weapons. The video showed a black man in a dark shirt roll down the Cruze's rear passenger window and open fire with a handgun. . .
A man on the sidewalk with the gunshot victim returned fire. . .
About a mile and a half away [from the scene of the drive-by], officers responded to the scene where Rosfeld had pulled over a light gold Cruze with its rear window broken and with two bullet holes, one in the trunk and one in the front passenger door, the complaint said." [Note that witness' at the drive-by described the vehicle as a gold Cruze, not a grey Cobalt as your source reported.]

Read the text I quoted from CNN again. The car make and color matched witness descriptions. It was in the vicinity of the shooting. It had the back window shot out and two additional bullet holes. How in the world can a reasonable person not understand that there was ample evidence for the police to pull over and question the occupants of the car?

Police found a stolen .40 cal glock in the car that has been matched to shell casing found at the drive-by scene. The rear passenger (who also fled) has since been arrested "and will be formally charged with aggravated assault, possession of a firearm by a minor, receiving stolen property, persons not to possess firearms and criminal attempt in the North Braddock [the drive by] shooting. . ."

Crystal clear that this was the car and occupants involved in the earlier shooting.
Yeah-up. Probable cause to pull that vehicle over. Nothing against African Americans. I love them. But in this case I believe the Officer will be exonerated.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by venator260 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:14 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:36 pm
venator260 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:09 pm
My Facebook newsfeed has been full of this event over the past few days. Two items that haven't been mentioned:

- Two Pittsburgh news stations had stated there was evidence tying Rose to the earlier drive-by. This was incorrect. I haven't read anything that tied the occupants of the car or the car to the earlier shooting, other than being a grey Cobalt. I'm open to reading another take; my Pittsburgh friends all lean liberal, and I can't find a news article that sums up what is known thus far.

-The officer involve has a questionable record at past departments.
Maybe you shouldn't rely on facebook for your news. Here's a CNN Report.

"Police obtained surveillance video from the scene and collected shell casings from .45- and .40-caliber weapons. The video showed a black man in a dark shirt roll down the Cruze's rear passenger window and open fire with a handgun. . .
A man on the sidewalk with the gunshot victim returned fire. . .
About a mile and a half away [from the scene of the drive-by], officers responded to the scene where Rosfeld had pulled over a light gold Cruze with its rear window broken and with two bullet holes, one in the trunk and one in the front passenger door, the complaint said." [Note that witness' at the drive-by described the vehicle as a gold Cruze, not a grey Cobalt as your source reported.]

Read the text I quoted from CNN again. The car make and color matched witness descriptions. It was in the vicinity of the shooting. It had the back window shot out and two additional bullet holes. How in the world can a reasonable person not understand that there was ample evidence for the police to pull over and question the occupants of the car?

Police found a stolen .40 cal glock in the car that has been matched to shell casing found at the drive-by scene. The rear passenger (who also fled) has since been arrested "and will be formally charged with aggravated assault, possession of a firearm by a minor, receiving stolen property, persons not to possess firearms and criminal attempt in the North Braddock [the drive by] shooting. . ."

Crystal clear that this was the car and occupants involved in the earlier shooting.
I dont get all my news from Facebook, but it is a useful source. I actually skimmed the news article you posted, but didnt read far enough. Upon reread, it doesn't look as good as I had believed. I tried to follow this issue, it I had never saw solid evidence that they were the same car, but this article makes it sound as though they were.

I did try to express in my OP that i am open to new information. These cases never seem to be how they sound at first.

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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Jester » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:43 am

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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by FredS » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:56 am

venator260 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:14 pm
. . . These cases never seem to be how they sound at first.
True dat. In this day and age, we get word on these events so quickly that information is still jumbled and our history with law enforcement officers as well as our experience in urban communities has a huge effect on which way we initially lean in our 'snap judgements' and analysis based on the early reports. We all have bias's and we all fill in the blanks. In this regard, perhaps the old days - when these reports were reported the next day when more facts were known - were better for our society.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:00 am

The bystander's gruesome cell phone video of Officer Rosfeld's shooting and killing 17 year old Antwon Rose is quite telling. So is Rosfeld's testimony the lad showed his hands as he left the car and ran. Interesting, also, that Antwon was the first to bolt out and run, followed by his "friend," sitting in the back seat who was later seen on surveillance video as the only shooter in the drive by shooting. Some friend, huh? To use Antwon as cover as he fled. This is a story that needs to be told to young minds today, early on. Choose your friends wisely.

Did the officer have probable cause to shoot as they ran? The suspect vehicle make, model, color, matched the description, and it had a gun shot blown out rear window. At the stop, officer Rosfeld was the only officer present, with three suspects to arrest. Did he have the capability to lock two of them in his patrol vehicle, arresting one at at time? What about the weapon/s? Could he have patted down all three at once? No. What would you have done as a lone officer in that situation, to protect and serve? To protect and serve the public at large, the suspects, and yourself?

I'd have used the patrol car loud speaker to immediately order all three out, hands in the air, face down on the pavement, hands and arms outstretched. And clearly and loudly repeating that command as I approached the 2 passengers cautiously, on the passengers side and around to the front of the vehicle. With my service weapon drawn, clearly visible to them. I'd have then ordered the driver (least likely to be the drive by shooter) to cuff the two passengers and then I'd have cuffed him. Then I'd take the rest of the night off and left to have a cold pint and leave the rest to clean up the mess.

If Rosfeld had done it this way, rather than leaving them in their car, none of them would have been able to flee. Officer Rosfeld failed to immediately neutralize the situation, and render the suspects harmless.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by FredS » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:42 pm

I have no training in this area, but let me say this:

You live in a dream world Goose. Do you really suppose those guys would have got out and laid on the ground as you would instruct? What makes you think the officer didn't tell them to show their hands and remain in the vehicle while he questioned them? Whatever instructions he gave, it surely wasn't to run and they certainly didn't obey.

Also, the idea that you'd draw your weapon and order the driver to cuff the others is ridiculous. Why draw your weapon? If you suppose these guys will comply with your orders there's no need for a show of force.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:34 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:42 pm
I have no training in this area, but let me say this:

You live in a dream world Goose. Do you really suppose those guys would have got out and laid on the ground as you would instruct? What makes you think the officer didn't tell them to show their hands and remain in the vehicle while he questioned them? Whatever instructions he gave, it surely wasn't to run and they certainly didn't obey.

Also, the idea that you'd draw your weapon and order the driver to cuff the others is ridiculous. Why draw your weapon? If you suppose these guys will comply with your orders there's no need for a show of force.
Maybe I'm unrealistic but that's what I'd have done. They were involved in a serious capital crime, and they knew it. If I were them I'd have welcomed the clear resounding authority of a policeman's orders. If they were black, white, yellow or green wouldn't matter.

Why draw my weapon? Because they had a weapon. Turns out they had two guns. Where were the weapons? The officer could not know that then, A show of force reinforces the orders to comply. Remember, he was at that time, the only officer on the scene.

At the stop, through the patrol vehicle's loud speaker: "Get out of the vehicle with your hands up and lay face down on the ground with your hands over your head." And repeated, with authority.

Comply, or not? The officer has a gun, and he knows how to use it. 8O

If the driver did not comply and hand cuff his cronies, I'd have ordered him over face down with the other two, with my weapon drawn, until reinforcements arrived.
Last edited by Goose55 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by FredS » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:01 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:34 pm
. . . They were involved in a serious capital crime, and they knew it. If I were them I'd have welcomed the clear resounding authority of a policeman's orders. . .
Excuse me, what time does the train stop in crazy town?

My point has been all along that you're not them and you seem to have no idea what the current culture is like in urban America. These kids have been taught their entire lives that the cops are out to get them. Based on a few of your comments in this thread, even you think the cops are out to get black kids, not help them. The notion they would welcome and respect the cops authority is insane. I'm sure the cop yelled "STOP" as the fled and they kept on going. He may have even added "OR I'LL SHOOT" and they still didn't stop even when faced with what amounted to a life or death choice.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:12 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:01 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:34 pm
. . . They were involved in a serious capital crime, and they knew it. If I were them I'd have welcomed the clear resounding authority of a policeman's orders. . .
Excuse me, what time does the train stop in crazy town?

My point has been all along that you're not them and you seem to have no idea what the current culture is like in urban America. These kids have been taught their entire lives that the cops are out to get them. Based on a few of your comments in this thread, even you think the cops are out to get black kids, not help them. The notion they would welcome and respect the cops authority is insane. I'm sure the cop yelled "STOP" as the fled and they kept on going. He may have even added "OR I'LL SHOOT" and they still didn't stop even when faced with what amounted to a life or death choice.
You're somehow forgetting that these poor, oppressed black youths were just involved in a drive by shooting, that could well have been fatal. My approach would have been "to help them." To keep them from fleeing until all the evidence could be seen.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Jocose » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm

Goose, did you always wear a respirator whilst painting?
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:35 pm

Jocose wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm
Goose, did you always wear a respirator whilst painting?
Jocose, you're out of line and insulting. And so is Fred. You both owe me an apology.
Last edited by Goose55 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by FredS » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:39 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:12 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:01 pm
Goose55 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:34 pm
. . . They were involved in a serious capital crime, and they knew it. If I were them I'd have welcomed the clear resounding authority of a policeman's orders. . .
Excuse me, what time does the train stop in crazy town?

My point has been all along that you're not them and you seem to have no idea what the current culture is like in urban America. These kids have been taught their entire lives that the cops are out to get them. Based on a few of your comments in this thread, even you think the cops are out to get black kids, not help them. The notion they would welcome and respect the cops authority is insane. I'm sure the cop yelled "STOP" as the fled and they kept on going. He may have even added "OR I'LL SHOOT" and they still didn't stop even when faced with what amounted to a life or death choice.
You're somehow forgetting that these poor, oppressed black youths were just involved in a drive by shooting, that could well have been fatal. My approach would have been "to help them." To keep them from fleeing until all the evidence could be seen.
In many communities, black kids are afraid of the cops. Cops shooting boys in the back (justified or not) doesn't help the situation. I'm sure that very night, the older bangers were using this shooting as another example for the younger ones as to why the cops can't be trusted and why they need to take care of their own business.

[EDIT] My crazy town and fantasy world comments are perhaps insulting too. But what you've written is just nuts, and it's insulting to cops working in that environment everyday to say that if they'd just be cool everybody would fall in line and be good boys and girls. An apology from me aint happenin'.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Goose55 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:43 pm

FredS wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:39 pm
An apology from me aint happenin'.
So be it then.
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Re: Use Of Police Lethal Force on Pittsburgh, PA Teen

Post by Jocose » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:03 pm

Goose55 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:35 pm
Jocose wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:19 pm
Goose, did you always wear a respirator whilst painting?
Jocose, you're out of line and insulting. And so is Fred. You both owe me an apology.
That's not the way I see it.
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