Looks Like Local Autonomy Doesn’t Work, Either

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hugodrax
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Re: Looks Like Local Autonomy Doesn’t Work, Either

Post by hugodrax » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:33 pm

FredS wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:26 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:17 pm
Fainn wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:02 pm
hugodrax wrote:I dont think churches do. Men .
I know if at least one female nursery worker. Wish they had pressed charges.



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I went to school in the dark ages
And yet you felt woke enough to lecture me on inclusivity in the Jocose LGBTGSJ thread. :rolleyes:
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Re: Looks Like Local Autonomy Doesn’t Work, Either

Post by FredS » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:38 pm

coco wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:22 pm
A denominational database of allegations (not convictions) would set the denomination up for being charged with libel, right?
Your point is well taken. That's why - as you wrote above - suspicions should be reported to the proper civil authorities. For too long, we've just quietly pushed the offenders out because we were afraid of organizational embarrassment or libel. Of course that leaves them free to move on to a different place and begin their offenses anew.

Perhaps we could make up some other sort of infraction that get's listed in the database with a wink and a nod that everyone understands. "Sloppy dresser, his pants kept falling down" might do it. I know many employers decline to give any information beyond start and end dates of former employees for fear of litigation. But a simple "We will not disclose the reason he's no longer with the company" speaks volumes.
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Re: Looks Like Local Autonomy Doesn’t Work, Either

Post by DepartedLight » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:41 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:33 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:26 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:17 pm
Fainn wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:02 pm
hugodrax wrote:I dont think churches do. Men .
I know if at least one female nursery worker. Wish they had pressed charges.



Sent from my SM-J337A using Tapatalk
Men = humanity.

I went to school in the dark ages
And yet you felt woke enough to lecture me on inclusivity in the Jocose LGBTGSJ I got lost at the second G and have no clue what S or J means either. thread. :rolleyes:
Yes.
DL Jake

Feel free to use that quote in your signature. Stanley76 » 22 Feb 2019 21:50

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Re: Looks Like Local Autonomy Doesn’t Work, Either

Post by hugodrax » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:44 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:41 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:33 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:26 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:17 pm
Fainn wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:02 pm
hugodrax wrote:I dont think churches do. Men .
I know if at least one female nursery worker. Wish they had pressed charges.



Sent from my SM-J337A using Tapatalk
Men = humanity.

I went to school in the dark ages
And yet you felt woke enough to lecture me on inclusivity in the Jocose LGBTGSJ I got lost at the second G and have no clue what S or J means either. thread. :rolleyes:
Yes.
America. Where ignorance isnt just bliss, we are damned proud of it.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: Looks Like Local Autonomy Doesn’t Work, Either

Post by FredS » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:02 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:44 pm
DepartedLight wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:41 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:33 pm
FredS wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:26 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:17 pm
Fainn wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:02 pm
hugodrax wrote:I dont think churches do. Men .
I know if at least one female nursery worker. Wish they had pressed charges.



Sent from my SM-J337A using Tapatalk
Men = humanity.

I went to school in the dark ages
And yet you felt woke enough to lecture me on inclusivity in the Jocose LGBTGSJ I got lost at the second G and have no clue what S or J means either. thread. :rolleyes:
Yes.
America. Where ignorance isnt just bliss, we are damned proud of it.
Bob Dole once said as much when he complained that Forest Gump was held up as a model.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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Re: Looks Like Local Autonomy Doesn’t Work, Either

Post by Fainn » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:04 pm

hugodrax wrote:
Fainn wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:02 pm
hugodrax wrote:I dont think churches do. Men .
I know if at least one female nursery worker. Wish they had pressed charges.



Sent from my SM-J337A using Tapatalk
Men = humanity.

I went to school in the dark ages
Right. I used all pronouns when writing papers to boost the word count. Found out charges were pressed.

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Re: Looks Like Local Autonomy Doesn’t Work, Either

Post by tuttle » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:55 am

FredS wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:38 pm
coco wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:22 pm
A denominational database of allegations (not convictions) would set the denomination up for being charged with libel, right?
Your point is well taken. That's why - as you wrote above - suspicions should be reported to the proper civil authorities. For too long, we've just quietly pushed the offenders out because we were afraid of organizational embarrassment or libel. Of course that leaves them free to move on to a different place and begin their offenses anew.

Perhaps we could make up some other sort of infraction that get's listed in the database with a wink and a nod that everyone understands. "Sloppy dresser, his pants kept falling down" might do it. I know many employers decline to give any information beyond start and end dates of former employees for fear of litigation. But a simple "We will not disclose the reason he's no longer with the company" speaks volumes.
I'd imagine that anything publicly listed by the denomination or association of churches would be an issue legally if the abuser isn't charged/convicted. Of course a concerned third party (such as what the journalists in Houston have actually done) could create a database based on legal documents that the churches consulted.

Most SBC churches are small and I'd imagine most 'pastor search committee's' are made up of a handful of laymen who don't have the resources to do an extensive background check, and even if they did, they're likely to not find anything concerning unless the candidate has already been charged with some sort of crime and that information is available to the public. And if the guy really is a predator, moving from church to church, he's not going to list any previous churches where he suspects people might have not thought him quite right, even if they didn't find him out.

Unfortunately any place, be it a school, a church, a family, etc where there are positions of authority, or merely supervision, it's going to be a target for predators. Just as a wolf spies a flock of sheep. Structures only go so far, as the thread title points out, this is a problem for the most free church structure as well as the most hierarchical structure. The best way to protect against it is to have competent, manly, shepherds guarding the flock.

I bring up the idea of manliness because exposing/reporting the abuser might reign fire down on your head. At my old church the abuser was accused one summer by someone who was not a member of the church, but doing volunteer work. The police were notified, they investigated, and their report was that he's in the clear, the kid is a serial liar, doing community service, they found no evidence of foul play. A few months later IT folks found bad websites that were viewed from the creep's computer, notified the pastor, word got out and a few kids came forward. Police were immediately contacted (then arrest, conviction, etc). The story from our angle was that a wolf infiltrated, abused, was caught, now time for healing. That was problem enough for the pastor. But then a local news crew started incessantly hounding the pastor and the church. They heard of the previous accusation that was resolved by the police and ran with the story that the church and our pastor in particular was trying to cover things up and tried to harbor a known abuser. Eventually they even got a policeman to say the church impeded their investigations (a lie to cover their ass). The news crew smuggled secret cameras into our church to film services for their reports. They interviewed random people no one in the church had ever seen before, they labeled as 'church member' who 'testified' to the secret, nefarious ways the pastor and church carried out their business. They surprised our pastor on multiple occasions with camera and microphone, even at his son's baseball game, asking accusing questions as to why he'd harbor such an evil man, etc. Those close to the situation knew the truth, that the pastor did the right thing, took all the right steps, but the news wanted blood. They were out to get their big scoop and literally made things up and twisted true things in order to do it. It was shocking and our pastor went through hell for it.

Eventually he had to step down, move away, and essentially he was out of the ministry for almost 10 years. That was his reward for guarding his flock. That's why you need manly shepherds. Wiener shepherds aren't going to put themselves through that kind of thing. They won't lay their lives down for the sheep and because of that they'll let the wolves wreak havoc.
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Re: Looks Like Local Autonomy Doesn’t Work, Either

Post by FredS » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:57 am

^Thank God for men like your pastor. He did the right things.
"If we ever get to heaven boys, it aint because we aint done nothin' wrong" - Kris Kristofferson

"One of the things I love about CPS is the frank and enthusiastic dysfunction here. God help me, I do love it so." – OldWorldSwine

"I'd like to put a hook in that puppet and swing it through a bunch of salmon!" - durangopipe

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