Notre Dame Fire

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Notre Dame Fire

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:07 am

I'm having a hard time expressing my thoughts about this tragedy. Nearly every image I see conjures up a heap of mixed feelings both for the immediate and for the future. Feelings of both horror and hope. Feeling like there's more to this than meets the eye.


Image

Image


Rod Dreher has a piece out that really says a lot about what I can't figure out to say. Notre Dame Fire: A Sign For Our Time

This quote he gives from someone named Wes Callihan speaks to the more negative feelings I have about all of this:
When a tragedy happens quickly, we notice and are rightly shocked. When it happens slowly, those who even notice at all are mocked or ignored. We’ve all seen the pictures in the news by now of the bare ruined choirs where late the sweet birds sang in the interior of Notre Dame. That charred, smoking mess we see is our civilization as it has been for the last 200 years. We do not live in Old Western Culture, not even in the twilight of it. We live in the cold, charred ruins. We ought to grieve, with real tears, over the sudden demise of Our Lady of Paris. But we ought likewise to be grieving every bit as much over the long, slow, agonizing demise of the culture she watched over protectively and then sadly for so long. Notre Dame is one of many symbols of a culture that is long gone and in the surviving scraps of which we amuse ourselves daily. Before Notre Dame can be rebuilt, she needs to be mourned. And those can mourn her best who loved her best. And all these same things are true, in far greater degree, of Old Western Culture. That cathedral in the news today is Christendom. We are those figures picking through the ash.
But I'm also encouraged by the hope some people can see in it, especially in a note from his French friend:
My dear Rod,

France, as a country and a people, was probably saved tonight. President Macron was supposed to talk tonight and everyone was saying it would be too little too late.

And now “La couronne d’épines et la tunique de Saint-Louis ont été sauvées” [“The Crown of Thorns and the tunic of St. Louis have been saved”]is breaking news on television. We shall wake up tomorrow in a different country.

Confiance et espérance. Bonne nuit à tous. [Confidence and hope. Good night to all.]
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:20 am

Image

The rose window in the west portal still remains

EDIT: Seems all three rose windows in the cathedral made it
Last edited by tuttle on Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:35 am

I wanted to take a minute and publicly apologize to Tuttle and Jester. While it does bug me when people post to prayer threads without acknowledging prayer, if you asked me whether I thought either one of them had prayed about it I'd have said "yes" without thinking.

I think reading the comments on online media and Twitter and seeing all of the self-proclaimed Jews, Moslems, atheists, and oddball fringe Protestants rejoicing and trying to score political points, I was sour and it came out directly and unfairly on their heads.

The brothers Tuttle are prayerful men and didn't deserve my acid tongue.

This is all of our patrimony and its loss is a loss to the world. I'm overjoyed so much remains. I pray I get to see it someday.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by tuttle » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:55 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:35 am
I wanted to take a minute and publicly apologize to Tuttle and Jester. While it does bug me when people post to prayer threads without acknowledging prayer, if you asked me whether I thought either one of them had prayed about it I'd have said "yes" without thinking.

I think reading the comments on online media and Twitter and seeing all of the self-proclaimed Jews, Moslems, atheists, and oddball fringe Protestants rejoicing and trying to score political points, I was sour and it came out directly and unfairly on their heads.

The brothers Tuttle are prayerful men and didn't deserve my acid tongue.

This is all of our patrimony and its loss is a loss to the world. I'm overjoyed so much remains. I pray I get to see it someday.
Yer a stand up guy. No ill will towards you and in fact I share your frustration on people giddy about it or trying to score political/religious points. And I'm more to blame for breaching prayer room etiquette. I sort of asked for it.

I too am happy that much remains.

I'm haunted by the idea that the burning indicates an end of something. My hope is that this loss shocks France and the West from both indifference and slumber. May repentance spread swiftly and the event become a waypoint rather than a gravestone.
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by FredS » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:15 am

I think tying the tragedy of the cathedral to a slower burn inside Christianity is a bit much there buddy. Sometimes a cake is just a cake.

I haven't seen anyone trying "to score points" on social media like Hugo has, but then I haven't gone looking for it and, since I'm not RC, I might not even realize it if I did see it. Sort of like Bob is more sensitive to racism towards Mexicans than I am. I have, of course, seen the old lines trotted out by those who think it's a shame to 'waste' money rebuilding the place when there are poor and starving people in the world. My canned response is that the Church can do both. We can have elaborately sacred spaces and feed strangers at the same time. Half the hospitals I've used in my life were Catholic hospitals. Christian charities do more than any other group in caring for the needy around the world.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Thunktank » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:28 am

Lord have mercy.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by hugodrax » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:32 am

FredS wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:15 am
I think tying the tragedy of the cathedral to a slower burn inside Christianity is a bit much there buddy. Sometimes a cake is just a cake.

I haven't seen anyone trying "to score points" on social media like Hugo has, but then I haven't gone looking for it and, since I'm not RC, I might not even realize it if I did see it. Sort of like Bob is more sensitive to racism towards Mexicans than I am. I have, of course, seen the old lines trotted out by those who think it's a shame to 'waste' money rebuilding the place when there are poor and starving people in the world. My canned response is that the Church can do both. We can have elaborately sacred spaces and feed strangers at the same time. Half the hospitals I've used in my life were Catholic hospitals. Christian charities do more than any other group in caring for the needy around the world.
I think you'd pick up on people literally saying it was a good thing that it burned. Or the pictures of laughing arabs with the fire in the background, that probably wouldn't go over your head, either.

Personally, I think we all send enough in foreign aid that we don't need to explain why we're going to rebuild our own treasures.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by TNLawPiper » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:29 pm

tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:20 am
Image

The rose window in the west portal still remains

EDIT: Seems all three rose windows in the cathedral made it
I am overjoyed to see that.

The rose windows, the organ, the altar, and some relics, including the crown of thorns and the tunic of St. Louis, appear to be safe. The status of the True Cross, crucifixion nail, and many priceless works of art is unknown. The Forest and the spire appear lost forever.

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by wosbald » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:39 pm

+JMJ+

Notre Dame: May lamentations lead to alleluias [Opinion]
Image
Flames and smoke billow from the Notre Dame Cathedral after a fire broke out in Paris April 15. Officials said the cause was not clear, but that the fire could be linked to renovation work. (CNS/Reuters/Benoit Tessier)

This year, Tenebrae came early. At the medieval service, celebrated on the Wednesday of Holy Week and serving as a vigil to the Triduum, Jeremiah's lamentations are sung. The lamentations are cries from the heart, bemoaning the evil that has come upon God's people of Israel with the destruction of the temple and their exile in Babylon.

As the service progresses, and the sorrowful tones are accumulated, the candles on the hearse are extinguished one by one until the church is left in darkness, the congregation throws down its hymnals to mimic the sound of a thunder clap and all depart in silence.

Yesterday, watching flames engulf Notre Dame de Paris Cathedral, it felt like Tenebrae. Lamentations over the destruction of this magnificent temple of devotion to the Mother of God were as heartfelt as they were appropriate. As the flames leapt higher and higher, it seemed like a darkness was descending upon the spirit of all who have worshiped within the walls of the cathedral at the heart of Paris. After the ancient roof had come crashing down to the floor, like a clap of evil thunder, silence and sorrow seemed the only thing anyone could manage.

There are those who will criticize such emotion being shown for a pile — even a noble pile — of stone when human beings the world over are suffering. But that misunderstands what a cathedral is, especially an old and venerable cathedral like Notre Dame. It is not mere stone, but the house in which the living stones of the people of God have prayed through the centuries, beseeching their Lord and His Mother for succor and salvation. The statue of the Blessed Mother that stood to the right of the altar — people seeking relief from the Great Plague prayed before that statue. People beset by famine and other hardships have lit candles in this cavernous space. The guns of several wars could be heard by the priests who stood at the altar, leading the people of Paris in prayer. In 2015, a congregation of national and city leaders gathered to pray for the victims of the terrorist attacks within Paris as Olivier Latry did the unthinkable, playing an improvisation on the tune of "La Marseillaise" at the offertory on the great Cavaille-Coll organ. That organ could be no more, one of many cultural treasures that did not survive the flames and smoke.*

The arches of the cathedral in Amiens are far higher than those of the cathedral in Paris. The stained glass windows of the cathedral in Chartres are more magnificent. The cathedral in Reims rivals that of the gothic masterpiece along the Seine in terms of history. But, there is something about Notre Dame de Paris, something that reverberates with the spirit of Catholic France. Those other cathedrals are also dedicated to the Mother of God but when one speaks of "Notre Dame" without designating the city, it is understood you are speaking about the cathedral in Paris. It is the very heart of the city that is the heart of France. The devotion of France, the eldest daughter of the church, to the Blessed Mother is nowhere more tangible, nowhere more laden in history. How many pilgrims have lit a candle and sought refuge in the mantle of Mary here? That thought, too, is why we owe no one an apology for our tears.

[…]

No other cathedral has, to my knowledge, a finer location. The slow moving waters of the Seine stream by along the south side of Notre Dame. The park, now dedicated to the memory of St. Pope John XXIII, who presided at Mass at Notre Dame many times while serving as apostolic nuncio to France after World War II, is an enclave of quiet and greenery in the busy and noisy city. The square before the West Front, with its two towers immortalized by Victor Hugo and the fictional bell ringer Quasimodo, permits one to see the entire façade, its rows of statues, its three enormous doors, the great bell ringing the hour. Who can forget the leaders of Paris' Jewish community and some of his relatives gathering in that square to recite the Kaddish over the body of Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger before his Christian funeral inside? In light of the long history of anti-Semitism in France, and throughout Europe, it was a moment of singular profundity.

Image
People react near the Notre Dame Cathedral after it suffered heavy damage from a fire in Paris April 15. (CNS/Reuters/Benoit Tessier)

Paris was not leveled in World War II and so Notre Dame escaped destruction. When you go to the great churches of Germany, in the vestibule there is usually a photograph of what the building looked like in 1945. The Frauenkirche in Munich, the Cathedral of the Assumption in Hildesheim, the Berliner Dom, all were ruined by Allied bombing and have been rebuilt. Notre Dame will be rebuilt as well. It must.

"Mankind was never so happily inspired as when it made a cathedral," wrote the Scottish novelist Robert Louis Stevenson. And so, watching a cathedral burn is one of mankind's sadder moments. The extinguished candles of Tenebrae, however, are relit at the Great Easter Vigil. The lamentations give way to alleluias, darkness to light, sadness to Easter joy. Through the centuries, the Christian faith has brought solace, especially to the poor and the bereft. A cathedral was the one architectural monument to which the poor had the same access as the powerful. The shock and sadness of watching Notre Dame burn will pass because the faith that built it once has not been extinguished, and the faithful will build it anew.

*This column has been updated. The cathedral's cultural director and other French officials reported later April 16 that the organ and certain other artifacts and artworks had not been destroyed.

ImageImage

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Fainn » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:49 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:29 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:20 am
Image

The rose window in the west portal still remains

EDIT: Seems all three rose windows in the cathedral made it
I am overjoyed to see that.

The rose windows, the organ, the altar, and some relics, including the crown of thorns and the tunic of St. Louis, appear to be safe. The status of the True Cross, crucifixion nail, and many priceless works of art is unknown. The Forest and the spire appear lost forever.
It has the true cross? You learn something new every day.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:48 pm

Fainn wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:49 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:29 pm
tuttle wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:20 am
Image

The rose window in the west portal still remains

EDIT: Seems all three rose windows in the cathedral made it
I am overjoyed to see that.

The rose windows, the organ, the altar, and some relics, including the crown of thorns and the tunic of St. Louis, appear to be safe. The status of the True Cross, crucifixion nail, and many priceless works of art is unknown. The Forest and the spire appear lost forever.
It has the true cross? You learn something new every day.
Thought to be the true cross.
Thought to be the Crown of Thorns.
Each comes with an interesting History worth reading in order to determine the authenticity for yourself.

At one time, before the State became our Big Brother, churches served as museums.
Apocalypses and victories were what medieval Christians prayed for relief of (in the case of apocalypse) or thanksgiving for (victories)
Important figures in History were baptized, commissioned and interned in Cathedrals.
Much of the History of France(and Europe) for the past 800 years was itemized and represented, as it was occurring. within the walls of Notre Dame.
That's why the loss is so devastating in the secular sense, even though the E.U. rejects Christianity's a vital role in European History.
"What doesn't kill you, gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms and a really dark sense of humor."

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am

On the news this morning it was announced that there will be an international competition to design Notre Dame's rebuilding.
With the long History of architectural abortions committed on Catholic churches since Vatican 2, I find this is a wee bit troubling.

Many bombed out churches during WW2 were lovingly restored to their original appearance and I hope Notre Dame receives the same, but being in France Image and a Catholic church now in the post Vatican 2 era
Image
and apparently a concern of french politicians
Image
who value Notre Dame as a tourist mecca Image
I'm becoming skeptical.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Jester » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:38 am

The structure lost in the fire was was made from 52 acres of wood that was double the age of the US.

Let that sink in.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by tuttle » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:10 am

Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am
On the news this morning it was announced that there will be an international competition to design Notre Dame's rebuilding.
With the long History of architectural abortions committed on Catholic churches since Vatican 2, I find this is a wee bit troubling.

Many bombed out churches during WW2 were lovingly restored to their original appearance and I hope Notre Dame receives the same, but being in France Image and a Catholic church now in the post Vatican 2 era
Image
and apparently a concern of french politicians
Image
who value Notre Dame as a tourist mecca Image
I'm becoming skeptical.
I heard that this morning as well and the skepticism was also immediate.

It also made me wonder who owns the building. The government or the church? Who will be responsible for selecting the 'winner'?
"The Evangelium has not abrogated legends; it has hallowed them" -JRR Tolkien

"Better to die cheerfully with the aid of a little tobacco, than to live disagreeably and remorseful without." -CS Lewis

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by rgcurrey » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:25 am

tuttle wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:10 am
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am
On the news this morning it was announced that there will be an international competition to design Notre Dame's rebuilding.
With the long History of architectural abortions committed on Catholic churches since Vatican 2, I find this is a wee bit troubling.

Many bombed out churches during WW2 were lovingly restored to their original appearance and I hope Notre Dame receives the same, but being in France Image and a Catholic church now in the post Vatican 2 era
Image
and apparently a concern of french politicians
Image
who value Notre Dame as a tourist mecca Image
I'm becoming skeptical.
I heard that this morning as well and the skepticism was also immediate.

It also made me wonder who owns the building. The government or the church? Who will be responsible for selecting the 'winner'?
There has to be an outcry if they don't restore it in a historically accurate way, but then again I agree with Hovannes and am very skeptical.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by hugodrax » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:42 am

Perhaps you two old ladies in pants could knock it off? You've just been handed the greatest miracle any of us have seen recently and this is how you repay Him?

Repent and rejoice is the message to us all, not carp about Vatican II, Oedipus President, or are personal tastes in architecture. No. Repent, turn inward, be salt and light.

By a miracle, the roof didn't collapse. So we are replacing the roof, boys, probably with steel girders, not building the Louvre.

And the interior will be appropriately restored, the parts that need it. Most remains.

Faith, Hope, and Charity, gents.
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by tuttle » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:59 am

rgcurrey wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:25 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:10 am
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am
On the news this morning it was announced that there will be an international competition to design Notre Dame's rebuilding.
With the long History of architectural abortions committed on Catholic churches since Vatican 2, I find this is a wee bit troubling.

Many bombed out churches during WW2 were lovingly restored to their original appearance and I hope Notre Dame receives the same, but being in France Image and a Catholic church now in the post Vatican 2 era
Image
and apparently a concern of french politicians
Image
who value Notre Dame as a tourist mecca Image
I'm becoming skeptical.
I heard that this morning as well and the skepticism was also immediate.

It also made me wonder who owns the building. The government or the church? Who will be responsible for selecting the 'winner'?
There has to be an outcry if they don't restore it in a historically accurate way, but then again I agree with Hovannes and am very skeptical.
Just read this on CNN:
On Wednesday, France's Prime Minister Edouard Philippe said France would launch an international architecture competition to reconstruct the spire, saying that the contest "will be organised in due course."

A committee will be set up to oversee the project and will decide whether the spire should be reconstructed or "adapted to modernity," he said.
"adapted to modernity"

gross.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by TNLawPiper » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:03 am

tuttle wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:10 am
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am
On the news this morning it was announced that there will be an international competition to design Notre Dame's rebuilding.
With the long History of architectural abortions committed on Catholic churches since Vatican 2, I find this is a wee bit troubling.

Many bombed out churches during WW2 were lovingly restored to their original appearance and I hope Notre Dame receives the same, but being in France Image and a Catholic church now in the post Vatican 2 era
Image
and apparently a concern of french politicians
Image
who value Notre Dame as a tourist mecca Image
I'm becoming skeptical.
I heard that this morning as well and the skepticism was also immediate.

It also made me wonder who owns the building. The government or the church? Who will be responsible for selecting the 'winner'?
My understanding is the government owns Notre-Dame de Paris, but the Catholic Church is the beneficiary with exclusive right of use in perpetuity. The archdiocese pays expenses and does not receive subsidies from the government.

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Jester » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 am

tuttle wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:59 am
rgcurrey wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:25 am
tuttle wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:10 am
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:43 am
On the news this morning it was announced that there will be an international competition to design Notre Dame's rebuilding.
With the long History of architectural abortions committed on Catholic churches since Vatican 2, I find this is a wee bit troubling.

Many bombed out churches during WW2 were lovingly restored to their original appearance and I hope Notre Dame receives the same, but being in France Image and a Catholic church now in the post Vatican 2 era
Image
and apparently a concern of french politicians
Image
who value Notre Dame as a tourist mecca Image
I'm becoming skeptical.
I heard that this morning as well and the skepticism was also immediate.

It also made me wonder who owns the building. The government or the church? Who will be responsible for selecting the 'winner'?
There has to be an outcry if they don't restore it in a historically accurate way, but then again I agree with Hovannes and am very skeptical.
Just read this on CNN:
On Wednesday, France's Prime Minister Edouard Philippe said France would launch an international architecture competition to reconstruct the spire, saying that the contest "will be organised in due course."

A committee will be set up to oversee the project and will decide whether the spire should be reconstructed or "adapted to modernity," he said.
"adapted to modernity"

gross.
Image
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by TNLawPiper » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:08 am

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:42 am
Perhaps you two old ladies in pants could knock it off? You've just been handed the greatest miracle any of us have seen recently and this is how you repay Him?

Repent and rejoice is the message to us all, not carp about Vatican II, Oedipus President, or are personal tastes in architecture. No. Repent, turn inward, be salt and light.

By a miracle, the roof didn't collapse. So we are replacing the roof, boys, probably with steel girders, not building the Louvre.

And the interior will be appropriately restored, the parts that need it. Most remains.

Faith, Hope, and Charity, gents.
Hear.

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