Notre Dame Fire

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by hugodrax » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:40 am

sweetandsour wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:15 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:00 am
+JMJ+

The world will be saved by beauty [Opinion]
Image

Letter to the Editor | Thursday, April 25, 2019

Individuals, corporations and even educational institutions like the University of Notre Dame have collectively donated over $1 billion toward the reconstruction of the Cathedral in the days following the tragic fire at Notre-Dame in Paris. The acts of benevolence have been lauded by some and harshly criticized by others. Among the tweets and statuses criticizing the donations to the Cathedral, I’ve seen those which place the reconstruction of the Cathedral in opposition to social justice. One such tweet from user Kristan_Higgins read:
Speaking as a Catholic here … please don’t donate to help Notre Dame. The Church is worth $30 billion. Donate to help Puerto Rico recover. Donate to get the people of Flint clean water. Donate to get kids out of cages. Jesus didn’t care about stained glass. He cared about people.
The words of the renowned social activist and founder of the Catholic Worker Movement, Dorothy Day, come to mind: “The world will be saved by beauty.”

[…]

I do not mean to say that beautiful churches or nice bouquets will eradicate world hunger. I am not so naive as to believe that breathtaking Gothic architecture and intricate stained glass will dismantle the unjust social systems of our world. But placing beauty in opposition to justice is a false and dangerous dichotomy. Let’s work to address the societal wrongdoings that perpetuate injustice. But do not abandon beauty along the way.

Unfortunately, beauty in the world has become a commodity. Precious works of art are housed in places like the Louvre, the Vatican Museums or the Met, all of which require entrance fees and none of which clamor to welcome in outcasts of society. Even places like the U.S. National Parks and the Gardens of Versailles charge entrance fees, commodifying the natural beauty they preserve. The artwork preserved in churches, though, has not become exclusive to the wealthy. Churches remain houses of beauty, art, music and prayer open to all — to outcasts, saints, sinners, rejects, steadfast believers, serial doubters and the lonely. The Notre-Dame Cathedral has been a haven of peace and beauty, proclaiming hope for weary and forgotten souls, for more than 800 years. While the world commodifies beauty, it remains steadfast.

If all the world’s corporal suffering were eradicated tomorrow, we would still need hope, joy and peace. We would still need beauty. It is as necessary to the soul as food is to the body; the poor person deserves beauty just as deeply as she deserves food, shelter and education. To deprive her of beauty is to disregard her humanity in favor of her corporality. Beauty inspires hope, calls forth contemplation and awakens childlike wonder even in the midst of suffering. Anyone who has set her eyes upon the rose windows of Notre-Dame, contemplated Van Gogh’s Starry Night, watched a beautiful sunrise over the sea or listened to Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony knows the indescribable song of the soul which beauty can evoke.

[…]

Mary Killeen McCans
sophomore
April 18

[The views expressed in this Letter to the Editor are those of the author and not necessarily those of The Observer.]
Beautifully-written piece by the (I presume) young lady. May she, and the (presumably) young lady that posted the tweet, both be blessed.
Wait, wait. At Easter, You were praising the eloquence of the post that told me that better men than you have died trying to make sure my little girls didn’t exist, and now it’s I hope those young Catholic ladies are blessed by God? Which one am I supposed to believe out of you people? Are you just moved by eloquence?
Notre Dame de Paris, priez pour nous y comprise les Jesuites.

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by tuttle » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:43 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:00 am
+JMJ+

The world will be saved by beauty [Opinion]
Image

Letter to the Editor | Thursday, April 25, 2019

Individuals, corporations and even educational institutions like the University of Notre Dame have collectively donated over $1 billion toward the reconstruction of the Cathedral in the days following the tragic fire at Notre-Dame in Paris. The acts of benevolence have been lauded by some and harshly criticized by others. Among the tweets and statuses criticizing the donations to the Cathedral, I’ve seen those which place the reconstruction of the Cathedral in opposition to social justice. One such tweet from user Kristan_Higgins read:
Speaking as a Catholic here … please don’t donate to help Notre Dame. The Church is worth $30 billion. Donate to help Puerto Rico recover. Donate to get the people of Flint clean water. Donate to get kids out of cages. Jesus didn’t care about stained glass. He cared about people.
The words of the renowned social activist and founder of the Catholic Worker Movement, Dorothy Day, come to mind: “The world will be saved by beauty.”

[…]

I do not mean to say that beautiful churches or nice bouquets will eradicate world hunger. I am not so naive as to believe that breathtaking Gothic architecture and intricate stained glass will dismantle the unjust social systems of our world. But placing beauty in opposition to justice is a false and dangerous dichotomy. Let’s work to address the societal wrongdoings that perpetuate injustice. But do not abandon beauty along the way.

Unfortunately, beauty in the world has become a commodity. Precious works of art are housed in places like the Louvre, the Vatican Museums or the Met, all of which require entrance fees and none of which clamor to welcome in outcasts of society. Even places like the U.S. National Parks and the Gardens of Versailles charge entrance fees, commodifying the natural beauty they preserve. The artwork preserved in churches, though, has not become exclusive to the wealthy. Churches remain houses of beauty, art, music and prayer open to all — to outcasts, saints, sinners, rejects, steadfast believers, serial doubters and the lonely. The Notre-Dame Cathedral has been a haven of peace and beauty, proclaiming hope for weary and forgotten souls, for more than 800 years. While the world commodifies beauty, it remains steadfast.

If all the world’s corporal suffering were eradicated tomorrow, we would still need hope, joy and peace. We would still need beauty. It is as necessary to the soul as food is to the body; the poor person deserves beauty just as deeply as she deserves food, shelter and education. To deprive her of beauty is to disregard her humanity in favor of her corporality. Beauty inspires hope, calls forth contemplation and awakens childlike wonder even in the midst of suffering. Anyone who has set her eyes upon the rose windows of Notre-Dame, contemplated Van Gogh’s Starry Night, watched a beautiful sunrise over the sea or listened to Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony knows the indescribable song of the soul which beauty can evoke.

[…]

Mary Killeen McCans
sophomore
April 18

[The views expressed in this Letter to the Editor are those of the author and not necessarily those of The Observer.]
Right on, Mary
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by sweetandsour » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:45 am

hugodrax wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:40 am
sweetandsour wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:15 am
wosbald wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:00 am
+JMJ+

The world will be saved by beauty [Opinion]
Image

Letter to the Editor | Thursday, April 25, 2019

Individuals, corporations and even educational institutions like the University of Notre Dame have collectively donated over $1 billion toward the reconstruction of the Cathedral in the days following the tragic fire at Notre-Dame in Paris. The acts of benevolence have been lauded by some and harshly criticized by others. Among the tweets and statuses criticizing the donations to the Cathedral, I’ve seen those which place the reconstruction of the Cathedral in opposition to social justice. One such tweet from user Kristan_Higgins read:
Speaking as a Catholic here … please don’t donate to help Notre Dame. The Church is worth $30 billion. Donate to help Puerto Rico recover. Donate to get the people of Flint clean water. Donate to get kids out of cages. Jesus didn’t care about stained glass. He cared about people.
The words of the renowned social activist and founder of the Catholic Worker Movement, Dorothy Day, come to mind: “The world will be saved by beauty.”

[…]

I do not mean to say that beautiful churches or nice bouquets will eradicate world hunger. I am not so naive as to believe that breathtaking Gothic architecture and intricate stained glass will dismantle the unjust social systems of our world. But placing beauty in opposition to justice is a false and dangerous dichotomy. Let’s work to address the societal wrongdoings that perpetuate injustice. But do not abandon beauty along the way.

Unfortunately, beauty in the world has become a commodity. Precious works of art are housed in places like the Louvre, the Vatican Museums or the Met, all of which require entrance fees and none of which clamor to welcome in outcasts of society. Even places like the U.S. National Parks and the Gardens of Versailles charge entrance fees, commodifying the natural beauty they preserve. The artwork preserved in churches, though, has not become exclusive to the wealthy. Churches remain houses of beauty, art, music and prayer open to all — to outcasts, saints, sinners, rejects, steadfast believers, serial doubters and the lonely. The Notre-Dame Cathedral has been a haven of peace and beauty, proclaiming hope for weary and forgotten souls, for more than 800 years. While the world commodifies beauty, it remains steadfast.

If all the world’s corporal suffering were eradicated tomorrow, we would still need hope, joy and peace. We would still need beauty. It is as necessary to the soul as food is to the body; the poor person deserves beauty just as deeply as she deserves food, shelter and education. To deprive her of beauty is to disregard her humanity in favor of her corporality. Beauty inspires hope, calls forth contemplation and awakens childlike wonder even in the midst of suffering. Anyone who has set her eyes upon the rose windows of Notre-Dame, contemplated Van Gogh’s Starry Night, watched a beautiful sunrise over the sea or listened to Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony knows the indescribable song of the soul which beauty can evoke.

[…]

Mary Killeen McCans
sophomore
April 18

[The views expressed in this Letter to the Editor are those of the author and not necessarily those of The Observer.]
Beautifully-written piece by the (I presume) young lady. May she, and the (presumably) young lady that posted the tweet, both be blessed.
Wait, wait. At Easter, You were praising the eloquence of the post that told me that better men than you have died trying to make sure my little girls didn’t exist, and now it’s I hope those young Catholic ladies are blessed by God? Which one am I supposed to believe out of you people? Are you just moved by eloquence?
Heh. Yes. I'm moved by you, and all y'all's eloquence.
I'm old but I'm happy. (Most of the time.)

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Del » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:46 am

hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:12 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:34 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:48 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:26 pm
European architects are very good at reconstructions
Cologne Cathedral, 1945---Image
Cologne Cathedral after restoration---ImageImage
compare with
Our Lady of Angels, pre-Roger MahoneyImage
Our Lady of Angels post Mahoney Image

See my concern?
No. They're not Americans, thank heaven. They will come up with their own architectural heresy. Good news is they have to think about tourist revenues.

Or they might build it right. Point is, I'm glad for the huge mercies we've been shown.
I agree.
Notre Dame is the repository of 800 years of Western European History as well as the Faith.
Sorry if I came across as over protective.
You know how it is.
That she still stands and that much of her inventory has been spared is indeed miraculous!
I'm taken far too seriously around here, Hov. Most days, I'm just glad to be alive.
Good point. You are a frequent challenge to livelihood.

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by hugodrax » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:56 am

Del wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:46 am
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:12 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:34 pm
hugodrax wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:48 pm
Hovannes wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:26 pm
European architects are very good at reconstructions
Cologne Cathedral, 1945---Image
Cologne Cathedral after restoration---ImageImage
compare with
Our Lady of Angels, pre-Roger MahoneyImage
Our Lady of Angels post Mahoney Image

See my concern?
No. They're not Americans, thank heaven. They will come up with their own architectural heresy. Good news is they have to think about tourist revenues.

Or they might build it right. Point is, I'm glad for the huge mercies we've been shown.
I agree.
Notre Dame is the repository of 800 years of Western European History as well as the Faith.
Sorry if I came across as over protective.
You know how it is.
That she still stands and that much of her inventory has been spared is indeed miraculous!
I'm taken far too seriously around here, Hov. Most days, I'm just glad to be alive.
Good point. You are a frequent challenge to livelihood.

Benedicamus Domino.
Get bent, Del. Or alternatively, have somebody straighten you out. I think you have frame damage.
Last edited by hugodrax on Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by wosbald » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:56 am

+JMJ+
sweetandsour wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:45 am
Heh. Yes. I'm moved by you, and all y'all's eloquence.
Betchyer moved by Deloquence most of all, right?

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by sweetandsour » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:58 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:56 am
+JMJ+
sweetandsour wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:45 am
Heh. Yes. I'm moved by you, and all y'all's eloquence.
Betchyer moved by Deloquence most of all, right?
Oh indeed!
I'm old but I'm happy. (Most of the time.)

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Del » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:01 am

hugodrax wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:56 am
Del wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:46 am
Good point. You are a frequent challenge to livelihood.

Benedicamus Domino.
Get bent, Del. Or alternatively, have somebody straighten you out.
Clearly, this did not come over as deloquently as I hoped.

Wishing you good health and no more close brushes with death, Paul.

And giving thanks for your continued survival.
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"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by hugodrax » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:05 am

Del wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:01 am
hugodrax wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:56 am
Del wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:46 am
Good point. You are a frequent challenge to livelihood.

Benedicamus Domino.
Get bent, Del. Or alternatively, have somebody straighten you out.
Clearly, this did not come over as deloquently as I hoped.

Wishing you good health and no more close brushes with death, Paul.

And giving thanks for your continued survival.
That sounds a lot better, LOL. The first one meant rather the opposite.

Appreciate it, Del. I was surprised.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Sat May 04, 2019 1:36 pm

A good article by Art Historian Liz Lev
https://angelusnews.com/news/elizabeth- ... nscendence
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Fri May 10, 2019 12:22 pm

So what exactly caused the fire?

The company in charge of the restoration claim the power to the roof was shut down.

I had breakfast this morning with a friend who had been to the Palm Sunday service at Notre Dame just before the fire.
He claims the locals don't believe an electrical short caused the fire because that reason was announced by the government while Notre Dame was still burning, before a proper investigation could possibly be completed, and a week(?) before a woman tied in with a group who murdered of a priest in Normandy was discovered near Notre Dame with a car loaded with petrol cans.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by tuttle » Fri May 10, 2019 1:22 pm

Hovannes wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:22 pm
So what exactly caused the fire?

The company in charge of the restoration claim the power to the roof was shut down.

I had breakfast this morning with a friend who had been to the Palm Sunday service at Notre Dame just before the fire.
He claims the locals don't believe an electrical short caused the fire because that reason was announced by the government while Notre Dame was still burning and a week(?) before a woman tied in with a group who murdered of a priest in Normandy was discovered near Notre Dame with a car loaded with petrol cans.
The quick, confident reaction from officials that this was in no way no how arson in the least with the crackle still audible in the background, and the across the board and sometimes awkward on-air silencing of anyone who brought it up as a possibility by the media, is enough to send the most sane man looking for insane conspiracy theories.

I think the most likely reason for all of that is purely fear based. I don't think anyone was trying to cover anything up that they knew about. I think it was much more a concern that they squelched any and all assumptions that might create turmoil. All this with a heavy Politically Correct culture to boot. It's not like France is in the midst of a migration crisis or in the throes of an uproar of a yellow vested citizenry or anything... No, they were confident this wasn't arson preciously because they were heavy handed in making sure Paris itself didn't catch on fire.

The rise of church attacks in France is well documented. It's telling that even in many of those reports, where arson is mentioned, almost nothing is mentioned of the arsonists or who is to blame. Now it could be just that, a mystery. But after as many attacks as France had, if those in the need to know really didn't know who was doing it, wouldn't that in and of itself be the story? Mystery Church Attacks Still Taking Place. La Police Still Stumped!

For my part, to rule out arson on such grounds, it's insanity. I get why they did it. I hate why they did it, and I think it's a horrible standard, and I think this kind of spinelessness will ultimately backfire, but I get it.

My guess that unless some incontrovertible evidence of arson becomes public, the cause will forever remain a mystery.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Del » Fri May 10, 2019 3:17 pm

I am going out on a limb and say that this was not a terrorist attack. Islamic terrorists like to boldly claim credit for their violence.

However, in France and Europe there is also a lot of leftist political violence -- like the "Antifa" nazis here, only more and larger. They hate the ancient Christian faith. They actively attack its symbols, clergy, and believers. A few of these zealots might have started this fire.... and they may wait until a suitable time to claim credit. Not now, while the world mourns.... later, when anger against the Church has been restored to a more feverish pitch.

They might even claim arson, even if it really was an accident.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Fri May 10, 2019 3:59 pm

Del wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:17 pm
I am going out on a limb and say that this was not a terrorist attack. Islamic terrorists like to boldly claim credit for their violence.

However, in France and Europe there is also a lot of leftist political violence -- like the "Antifa" nazis here, only more and larger. They hate the ancient Christian faith. They actively attack its symbols, clergy, and believers. A few of these zealots might have started this fire.... and they may wait until a suitable time to claim credit. Not now, while the world mourns.... later, when anger against the Church has been restored to a more feverish pitch.

They might even claim arson, even if it really was an accident.
At least some yellow vesters have expressed anger against the Church.
The thing is what has the investigation discovered? Is there an investigation? crickets. The French government's lack of candor only adds to the distrust in the Macron Government
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri May 10, 2019 5:04 pm

Del wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:17 pm
"Antifa" nazis
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. Proverbs 17:28
Antifa aren’t nazis, Del. Not all human beings who do bad things are nazis. Please learn.

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by AFRS » Fri May 10, 2019 7:27 pm

FredS wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:49 pm
Who let AFRS in?
Who let FredS out?

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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Del » Sat May 11, 2019 5:14 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 5:04 pm
Del wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 3:17 pm
"Antifa" nazis
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. Proverbs 17:28
Antifa aren’t nazis, Del. Not all human beings who do bad things are nazis. Please learn.
You are right. That felt wrong when I typed it, but I didn't take time to edit.

I meant to say "fascists." Antifa are fascists, but not like the nazis. They lack a charismatic leader. They lack the paramilitary aspect of the Brownshirts under Ernst Rohm, and they are nothing like the SS under Himmler.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by DAN » Sat May 11, 2019 9:11 am

Last I heard, there was no proof of arson. What interested me was the reaction: no matter their position on the spectrum, everyone knew it made perfect sense to suspect arson. Some knew it and said so, and some knew it and insisted that was objectionable and indicative of deep character flaws to say so.
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Sat May 11, 2019 11:11 am

DAN wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 9:11 am
Last I heard, there was no proof of arson. What interested me was the reaction: no matter their position on the spectrum, everyone knew it made perfect sense to suspect arson. Some knew it and said so, and some knew it and insisted that was objectionable and indicative of deep character flaws to say so.
The trouble with that is an electrical fire became the official line before any preliminary investigation could be completed---the roof was still on fire!
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Re: Notre Dame Fire

Post by Hovannes » Sat May 18, 2019 4:47 pm

FWIW, St. Paul Outside the Walls suffered a worse fate than Notre Dame, but Pope Leo XII did a good job of restoring the place to it's former glory
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... tury-19051
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