More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by Del » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:08 pm

coco wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:37 am
Image
I remember how much I detested Bill Clinton when he was president, simply because he was pro-abortion. It went right along with his skirt-chasing disrespect for women.

But old Bill was a master statesman, and he was pleased to leave America alone and let us thrive. His cooperation with Newt even allowed the federal govt to achieve a balance budget, if only for just a little while. And he brokered a lasting peace in Northern Ireland, lending hope to those who want real peace in the Middle East. Trump almost got us there, by doing similar to what Bill did.

Now I truly wish that Democrats could just be like the old skirt-chasing pig.

If more Democrats could be like Bill, and more Republicans could be like Trump (even with their combined flaws), we could get this nation back on a firm foundation. And then we could stop blaming everything little thing on racism.

That would be nice.
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by Adam Z » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:11 pm

[T.A.D. INTENSIFIES]....

I guess we know how the democrats plan to pay for the recent "infrastructure" bills now.
Last edited by Adam Z on Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by Goose55 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:41 pm

JimVH wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:53 am
Full Article: New Bill Seeks to Dramatically Increase Federal Taxes on Tobacco Products

This would bring a 1650% increase in pipe tobacco taxes.
Tobacco Business Magazine wrote:Here’s how the tax parity, as defined by Section 5701(g) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, could change for each product category:

Small Cigarettes: From $50.33 to $100.66
Large Cigarettes: From $105.69 to $211.38
Roll-Your-Own Tobacco: From $24.78, amended to $49.56
Pipe Tobacco Tobacco: From $2.8311 cents to $49.56
Smokeless Tobacco: In paragraph (1) of Section 5701(e), from $1.51 to $26.84; paragraph (2), from $50.33 cents to $10.74
Small Cigars: From $50.33 to $100.66
Large Cigars: From 52.75 percent to $49.56 per pound and a proportionate tax at the like rate on all fractional parts of a pound but not less than 10.066 cents per cigar
Looks like large cigars would take the least hit. I wonder why.
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by joegoat » Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:15 pm

Goose55 wrote:
JimVH wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:53 am
Full Article: New Bill Seeks to Dramatically Increase Federal Taxes on Tobacco Products

This would bring a 1650% increase in pipe tobacco taxes.
Tobacco Business Magazine wrote:Here’s how the tax parity, as defined by Section 5701(g) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, could change for each product category:

Small Cigarettes: From $50.33 to $100.66
Large Cigarettes: From $105.69 to $211.38
Roll-Your-Own Tobacco: From $24.78, amended to $49.56
Pipe Tobacco Tobacco: From $2.8311 cents to $49.56
Smokeless Tobacco: In paragraph (1) of Section 5701(e), from $1.51 to $26.84; paragraph (2), from $50.33 cents to $10.74
Small Cigars: From $50.33 to $100.66
Large Cigars: From 52.75 percent to $49.56 per pound and a proportionate tax at the like rate on all fractional parts of a pound but not less than 10.066 cents per cigar
Looks like large cigars would take the least hit. I wonder why.
High quality tobacco products have stayed safe for so long because no matter what the Dems say, they ultimately want to tax the lower class. The tobacco products used by the lower classes are taxed the heaviest in the name of trying to help people for health reasons. When they say they'll tax the corporations, who are they really taxing? The people who buy items or services from them will pay the tax through increased prices.

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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by coco » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:05 pm

Are the pipe tobacco taxes on a per ounce basis? (That would make a pound of tobacco have $792.96 in tax.)
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by JimVH » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:48 pm

coco wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:05 pm
Are the pipe tobacco taxes on a per ounce basis? (That would make a pound of tobacco have $792.96 in tax.)
26 U.S. Code § 5701 - Rate of tax wrote:(f) Pipe tobacco
On pipe tobacco, manufactured in or imported into the United States, there shall be imposed a tax of $2.8311 cents per pound (and a proportionate tax at the like rate on all fractional parts of a pound).
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5701

Cigar tax info is in the link, also.
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by coco » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:03 pm

JimVH wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:48 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:05 pm
Are the pipe tobacco taxes on a per ounce basis? (That would make a pound of tobacco have $792.96 in tax.)
26 U.S. Code § 5701 - Rate of tax wrote:(f) Pipe tobacco
On pipe tobacco, manufactured in or imported into the United States, there shall be imposed a tax of $2.8311 cents per pound (and a proportionate tax at the like rate on all fractional parts of a pound).
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5701

Cigar tax info is in the link, also.
Okay.

A 1650% increase in taxes is egregious, but it doesn't kill the hobby outright. You're looking at a 2 oz. tin increasing by about $6.

That being said, Rusty said that they would double the taxes every so often in Canada, and insisted they would probably start doing so here.

It's the beginning of the end, not the end.
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by lordhavemercy » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:39 am

Man, seems like a rough time to acquire this as a hobby. I guess that means stock up now. I also happened to order some seed a week ago, but I don’t suspect I’ll have great luck here in Maine.

Can anyone recommend any authoritative sources on curing and preparing from fresh leaf to blend? I’ve watched a bunch of YouTube videos and read a handful of random experiments on forums, but I haven’t found anything from what appears an authoritative source. I have a bio/chemistry background and am as much interested in the technical as I am the historical and traditional. But mostly I just want to be able to produce high quality smoke ;)

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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by coco » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:30 pm

lordhavemercy wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:39 am
Man, seems like a rough time to acquire this as a hobby. I guess that means stock up now. I also happened to order some seed a week ago, but I don’t suspect I’ll have great luck here in Maine.

Can anyone recommend any authoritative sources on curing and preparing from fresh leaf to blend? I’ve watched a bunch of YouTube videos and read a handful of random experiments on forums, but I haven’t found anything from what appears an authoritative source. I have a bio/chemistry background and am as much interested in the technical as I am the historical and traditional. But mostly I just want to be able to produce high quality smoke ;)
The changes in the short term will not significantly affect most of us here. You are looking at the cost of a single tin going from about $15 to about $21. Most of us here can afford a six dollar increase per tin, as the yearly costs wouldn't crush our budgets.

Where things go from here depends on the desires of the politicians who are in control. If they simply want to make money, the way to do it is to use a monopolistic pricing scheme on the taxes they impose.* This would maximize profit, which is the goal of many politicians.

There are a couple of reasons that they probably will try to increase taxes much more than what would be demanded by monopolistic pricing. First, they may be too dumb to understand the supply and demand curve of Economics 101. Such people figure that more taxes always means more money, and so they keep raising them.

The other reason that they may keep raising taxes is that they may have a different goal than making money: to eliminate smoking via taxes. Many countries have raised taxes to the point that a tin is well over $50, so that no one can afford to smoke. This approach does not maximize tax income for the government, but it does get rid of smoking within that country. One of the favorite tactics of the politician is to point out how "we are behind other countries."

I would love to see more discussion on CPS about growing and curing your own. As you research and experiment, please share your experiences with us.



*The government is the sole producer of taxes, and so monopolistic pricing is implied. I think this is true though the marginal economic cost is fairly negligible, and thus the tax price would be set solely according to the marginal benefit to the customer.
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by SlowToke » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:03 pm

I tried to grow tobacco one year. The insects ate the whole crop down to the nub. I may have to give it another go here at the new tick farm.
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by Adam Z » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:23 pm

coco wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:30 pm

Where things go from here depends on the desires of the politicians who are in control. If they simply want to make money, the way to do it is to use a monopolistic pricing scheme on the taxes they impose.* This would maximize profit, which is the goal of many politicians.

There are a couple of reasons that they probably will try to increase taxes much more than what would be demanded by monopolistic pricing. First, they may be too dumb to understand the supply and demand curve of Economics 101. Such people figure that more taxes always means more money, and so they keep raising them.

The other reason that they may keep raising taxes is that they may have a different goal than making money: to eliminate smoking via taxes. Many countries have raised taxes to the point that a tin is well over $50, so that no one can afford to smoke. This approach does not maximize tax income for the government, but it does get rid of smoking within that country. One of the favorite tactics of the politician is to point out how "we are behind other countries."
A couple years ago I saw an article that blamed a sizeable portion of California's budget deficit on the lack of tobacco taxes collected. Apparently they'd anticipated a rather large sum of revenue by this method, but they'd done such an exemplary job of taxing the hell out of smokers and socially ostracizing them that so many people quit smoking altogether - resulting in a major loss of revenue for the state feifdom.

I lived in San Diego County from 2002-2004. Back then we still had smoking sections in restaurants in North Carolina, but such things were long extinct in California. I still remember the awkward look on the hostess' face when, shortly after moving to the state, I took my girlfriend out to dinner and asked for a "table for two - nonsmoking".
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by FredS » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:54 pm

Adam Z wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:23 pm
coco wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:30 pm

Where things go from here depends on the desires of the politicians who are in control. If they simply want to make money, the way to do it is to use a monopolistic pricing scheme on the taxes they impose.* This would maximize profit, which is the goal of many politicians.

There are a couple of reasons that they probably will try to increase taxes much more than what would be demanded by monopolistic pricing. First, they may be too dumb to understand the supply and demand curve of Economics 101. Such people figure that more taxes always means more money, and so they keep raising them.

The other reason that they may keep raising taxes is that they may have a different goal than making money: to eliminate smoking via taxes. Many countries have raised taxes to the point that a tin is well over $50, so that no one can afford to smoke. This approach does not maximize tax income for the government, but it does get rid of smoking within that country. One of the favorite tactics of the politician is to point out how "we are behind other countries."
A couple years ago I saw an article that blamed a sizeable portion of California's budget deficit on the lack of tobacco taxes collected. Apparently they'd anticipated a rather large sum of revenue by this method, but they'd done such an exemplary job of taxing the hell out of smokers and socially ostracizing them that so many people quit smoking altogether - resulting in a major loss of revenue for the state feifdom.

I lived in San Diego County from 2002-2004. Back then we still had smoking sections in restaurants in North Carolina, but such things were long extinct in California. I still remember the awkward look on the hostess' face when, shortly after moving to the state, I took my girlfriend out to dinner and asked for a "table for two - nonsmoking".
I watched a very interesting doc last night about a mob scheme and gasoline taxes. They strong armed their way in to the market and kept all the "taxes" they charged when the sold fuel to gas stations. They collected it, the just didn't pay it. The only ones hurt were the various taxing authorities. Because they made so much money with the tax scheme, the mob could afford to wholesale to gas stations for a few pennies less than anyone else so they had a huge market share and retailers would happily pay less for the same product. I don't see anyone doing that with pipe tobacco but I can absolutely see this type of scheme for cigarettes. Anywhere that an inordinate amount of money can be made by shuffling paper, without actual goods or services, people will figure out a way to skim some of it.
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by Adam Z » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:10 pm

FredS wrote:
Adam Z wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:23 pm
coco wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:30 pm

Where things go from here depends on the desires of the politicians who are in control. If they simply want to make money, the way to do it is to use a monopolistic pricing scheme on the taxes they impose.* This would maximize profit, which is the goal of many politicians.

There are a couple of reasons that they probably will try to increase taxes much more than what would be demanded by monopolistic pricing. First, they may be too dumb to understand the supply and demand curve of Economics 101. Such people figure that more taxes always means more money, and so they keep raising them.

The other reason that they may keep raising taxes is that they may have a different goal than making money: to eliminate smoking via taxes. Many countries have raised taxes to the point that a tin is well over $50, so that no one can afford to smoke. This approach does not maximize tax income for the government, but it does get rid of smoking within that country. One of the favorite tactics of the politician is to point out how "we are behind other countries."
A couple years ago I saw an article that blamed a sizeable portion of California's budget deficit on the lack of tobacco taxes collected. Apparently they'd anticipated a rather large sum of revenue by this method, but they'd done such an exemplary job of taxing the hell out of smokers and socially ostracizing them that so many people quit smoking altogether - resulting in a major loss of revenue for the state feifdom.

I lived in San Diego County from 2002-2004. Back then we still had smoking sections in restaurants in North Carolina, but such things were long extinct in California. I still remember the awkward look on the hostess' face when, shortly after moving to the state, I took my girlfriend out to dinner and asked for a "table for two - nonsmoking".
I watched a very interesting doc last night about a mob scheme and gasoline taxes. They strong armed their way in to the market and kept all the "taxes" they charged when the sold fuel to gas stations. They collected it, the just didn't pay it. The only ones hurt were the various taxing authorities. Because they made so much money with the tax scheme, the mob could afford to wholesale to gas stations for a few pennies less than anyone else so they had a huge market share and retailers would happily pay less for the same product. I don't see anyone doing that with pipe tobacco but I can absolutely see this type of scheme for cigarettes. Anywhere that an inordinate amount of money can be made by shuffling paper, without actual goods or services, people will figure out a way to skim some of it.
Sounds like you were watching something about the activities of the Colombo family in the 1980’s. Michael Franzese was a capo involved in implementing this racket. He later became a Christian. I saw him speak at a church a few years ago and he talked about this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Franzese


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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by Del » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:25 pm

lordhavemercy wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:39 am
Man, seems like a rough time to acquire this as a hobby. I guess that means stock up now. I also happened to order some seed a week ago, but I don’t suspect I’ll have great luck here in Maine.

Can anyone recommend any authoritative sources on curing and preparing from fresh leaf to blend? I’ve watched a bunch of YouTube videos and read a handful of random experiments on forums, but I haven’t found anything from what appears an authoritative source. I have a bio/chemistry background and am as much interested in the technical as I am the historical and traditional. But mostly I just want to be able to produce high quality smoke ;)
I bought a large stash during the Obama years, when talk such as this initiated a hoarding craze. Now I have a lifetime supply of good stuff.

I don't know about Maine... but it seems possible, perhaps with the help of some greenhouse tech. "Connecticut wrapper leaf" enjoys a premium on the cigar market.

But it looks like our favorite producers are under constant threat by Democrats... and there will be a steady income for anyone who can produce some quality tobacco leaf for the black market, Not likely to be prosecuted if you keep the operation small and hobby-like. We'd be like the Jews in the Soviet U***n who made matzo for Passover.

You'll have to learn the art of tobacco from some real growers, about handling and curing and processing. It's mostly manual work.... I imagine it would be easy to scale down to a home garden, with a small outbuilding for drying and curing (possibly within the greenhouse that started the plants).

Some enterprising young guys should get started on this!
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Re: More Tobacco Bad, Taxes Good Legislation

Post by lordhavemercy » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:45 am

Del wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:25 pm
lordhavemercy wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:39 am
Man, seems like a rough time to acquire this as a hobby. I guess that means stock up now. I also happened to order some seed a week ago, but I don’t suspect I’ll have great luck here in Maine.

Can anyone recommend any authoritative sources on curing and preparing from fresh leaf to blend? I’ve watched a bunch of YouTube videos and read a handful of random experiments on forums, but I haven’t found anything from what appears an authoritative source. I have a bio/chemistry background and am as much interested in the technical as I am the historical and traditional. But mostly I just want to be able to produce high quality smoke ;)
I bought a large stash during the Obama years, when talk such as this initiated a hoarding craze. Now I have a lifetime supply of good stuff.

I don't know about Maine... but it seems possible, perhaps with the help of some greenhouse tech. "Connecticut wrapper leaf" enjoys a premium on the cigar market.

But it looks like our favorite producers are under constant threat by Democrats... and there will be a steady income for anyone who can produce some quality tobacco leaf for the black market, Not likely to be prosecuted if you keep the operation small and hobby-like. We'd be like the Jews in the Soviet U***n who made matzo for Passover.

You'll have to learn the art of tobacco from some real growers, about handling and curing and processing. It's mostly manual work.... I imagine it would be easy to scale down to a home garden, with a small outbuilding for drying and curing (possibly within the greenhouse that started the plants).

Some enterprising young guys should get started on this!
I’m realizing how much there is to learn, but have found some good sources since I posted this. The forum at fair trade tobacco has some good references.

I also have some farmer friends that have grown hemp for cbd, and initiated a similar curing process to what it sounds like burley goes through (no hot flu air, no smoke). I may be able to get one of them to grow me some...

In the mean time, I’ll just try to stock a cellar up. I haven’t had the chance to try a lot of the stuff I want to in order to know what I want to cellar (though Hovannes was very kind to send me a sample of GLP Gaslight!).I understand that more sugar means more action in fermentation, so Virginia’s and to a lesser extent orientals are where most of the action is, so that’s a fine start. One of my favorite smokes so far has been the davidoff flake that I bought off a local shop (with a pretty astronomical price tag). It did appear to have several years on it though. So I will definitely be buying some of that to cellar.

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