The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by tuttle » Tue May 04, 2021 7:54 am

Del wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:43 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:58 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:20 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:31 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:05 am
Jester wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am
Very cool. There is only a small group of Reformed Evangelicals that still think we should have beautiful architecture for our churches.
I think we miss out because of this.
The Greek word that is translated as "church" means "assembly of people," not "building." Each of the believers is a temple of God, and so church is when the temples come together to worship. There is not NT precedent for pretty buildings, and most NT churches met in someone's house.

That being said, I think that church buildings in the shape of a cross are cool. I particularly like the mission aesthetic of this one. Feel free to make fun of me now.
In English, we use the word church to translate ekklesia, and also to describe the building where the church assembles and worships. The local Church meets at a local church. In the middle 100's, St. Iranaeus of Lyons wrote that "one can go into any town and ask 'Where does the Catholic Church meet? and the resident will answer." [He wasn't writing in English, of course. He was defending the Ekklesia Katholika from the various local gnostic sects.]

My point is that no one seriously confuses the Universal Church with any church building, not even in English.
----------------------------------------------
,,,
Yep. You missed the point.
I have been meditating a long time on this.

The early Christians were full of missionary zeal. When they were able to openly work in peace, they built churches to assist their missionary work. They didn't decorate their churches just to be pretty -- they wanted their places of worship to speak the Gospel news even when no one was preaching or worshipping. Thus Christian architecture is full of iconography and biblical art.

I was pondering how this Christian tradition should translate into the Calvinist tradition, with its particular concerns for biblical teaching, undiluted with excessive imagery, and focused on evangelism.

I recommend that a church of the Calvinist tradition should have just one symbol prominently displayed: A Crucifix.

Anyone stepping inside would see and know that this space is dedicated to spreading the one great biblical message: "Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."
You're not too far off. Most of your traditional (non-mega/mall) American evangelical church buildings I've seen pretty much have a large prominent cross behind the pulpit, and on the floor before the pulpit, a communion table. In baptist churches (at least) there is also usually a baptismal pool either beneath the cross, or off to the side.

The picture is quite clear: Word and Sacrament with the Cross over all.
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by FredS » Tue May 04, 2021 8:14 am

It's also worth considering how many 'Calvinist Churches' have fractured in to relatively tiny congregations who can't afford ornate buildings. Hell, there are thousands of churches in the US who can't afford any building so they meet in homes or borrowed gymnasiums.

I'm sure we've all heard the story of the boy who went to the woods every day. His father asked why and he said "To be with God". "Don't you understand that God is the same everywhere?" the father asked. "Yes" the boy said, "but I am not". I think it's important to have special places that both honor God and enhance and encourage us.
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by Jester » Tue May 04, 2021 9:01 am

Del wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:43 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:58 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:20 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:31 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:05 am
Jester wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am
Very cool. There is only a small group of Reformed Evangelicals that still think we should have beautiful architecture for our churches.
I think we miss out because of this.
The Greek word that is translated as "church" means "assembly of people," not "building." Each of the believers is a temple of God, and so church is when the temples come together to worship. There is not NT precedent for pretty buildings, and most NT churches met in someone's house.

That being said, I think that church buildings in the shape of a cross are cool. I particularly like the mission aesthetic of this one. Feel free to make fun of me now.
In English, we use the word church to translate ekklesia, and also to describe the building where the church assembles and worships. The local Church meets at a local church. In the middle 100's, St. Iranaeus of Lyons wrote that "one can go into any town and ask 'Where does the Catholic Church meet? and the resident will answer." [He wasn't writing in English, of course. He was defending the Ekklesia Katholika from the various local gnostic sects.]

My point is that no one seriously confuses the Universal Church with any church building, not even in English.
----------------------------------------------
,,,
Yep. You missed the point.
I have been meditating a long time on this.

The early Christians were full of missionary zeal. When they were able to openly work in peace, they built churches to assist their missionary work. They didn't decorate their churches just to be pretty -- they wanted their places of worship to speak the Gospel news even when no one was preaching or worshipping. Thus Christian architecture is full of iconography and biblical art.

I was pondering how this Christian tradition should translate into the Calvinist tradition, with its particular concerns for biblical teaching, undiluted with excessive imagery, and focused on evangelism.

I recommend that a church of the Calvinist tradition should have just one symbol prominently displayed: A Crucifix.

Anyone stepping inside would see and know that this space is dedicated to spreading the one great biblical message: "Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."
A bare cross will suffice. "Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen and sitting at the right hand of the Father."
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by Goose55 » Tue May 04, 2021 9:59 am

Very nice, indeed.
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by FredS » Tue May 04, 2021 10:10 am

Jester wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:01 am
Del wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:43 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:58 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:20 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:31 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:05 am
Jester wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am
Very cool. There is only a small group of Reformed Evangelicals that still think we should have beautiful architecture for our churches.
I think we miss out because of this.
The Greek word that is translated as "church" means "assembly of people," not "building." Each of the believers is a temple of God, and so church is when the temples come together to worship. There is not NT precedent for pretty buildings, and most NT churches met in someone's house.

That being said, I think that church buildings in the shape of a cross are cool. I particularly like the mission aesthetic of this one. Feel free to make fun of me now.
In English, we use the word church to translate ekklesia, and also to describe the building where the church assembles and worships. The local Church meets at a local church. In the middle 100's, St. Iranaeus of Lyons wrote that "one can go into any town and ask 'Where does the Catholic Church meet? and the resident will answer." [He wasn't writing in English, of course. He was defending the Ekklesia Katholika from the various local gnostic sects.]

My point is that no one seriously confuses the Universal Church with any church building, not even in English.
----------------------------------------------
,,,
Yep. You missed the point.
I have been meditating a long time on this.

The early Christians were full of missionary zeal. When they were able to openly work in peace, they built churches to assist their missionary work. They didn't decorate their churches just to be pretty -- they wanted their places of worship to speak the Gospel news even when no one was preaching or worshipping. Thus Christian architecture is full of iconography and biblical art.

I was pondering how this Christian tradition should translate into the Calvinist tradition, with its particular concerns for biblical teaching, undiluted with excessive imagery, and focused on evangelism.

I recommend that a church of the Calvinist tradition should have just one symbol prominently displayed: A Crucifix.

Anyone stepping inside would see and know that this space is dedicated to spreading the one great biblical message: "Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."
A bare cross will suffice. "Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen and sitting at the right hand of the Father."
Del should know better than to mention a Crucifix in a thread where 'the boyz' are active. To most Protestants, how, why, when, or where Christ was crucified is less important than the fact that He overcame death. I'm sure that we're in the minority of Protestants because we display a Crucifix in our home.
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by durangopipe » Tue May 04, 2021 10:26 am

FredS wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 10:10 am
Jester wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:01 am
Del wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:43 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:58 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:20 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:31 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:05 am
Jester wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am
Very cool. There is only a small group of Reformed Evangelicals that still think we should have beautiful architecture for our churches.
I think we miss out because of this.
The Greek word that is translated as "church" means "assembly of people," not "building." Each of the believers is a temple of God, and so church is when the temples come together to worship. There is not NT precedent for pretty buildings, and most NT churches met in someone's house.

That being said, I think that church buildings in the shape of a cross are cool. I particularly like the mission aesthetic of this one. Feel free to make fun of me now.
In English, we use the word church to translate ekklesia, and also to describe the building where the church assembles and worships. The local Church meets at a local church. In the middle 100's, St. Iranaeus of Lyons wrote that "one can go into any town and ask 'Where does the Catholic Church meet? and the resident will answer." [He wasn't writing in English, of course. He was defending the Ekklesia Katholika from the various local gnostic sects.]

My point is that no one seriously confuses the Universal Church with any church building, not even in English.
----------------------------------------------
,,,
Yep. You missed the point.
I have been meditating a long time on this.

The early Christians were full of missionary zeal. When they were able to openly work in peace, they built churches to assist their missionary work. They didn't decorate their churches just to be pretty -- they wanted their places of worship to speak the Gospel news even when no one was preaching or worshipping. Thus Christian architecture is full of iconography and biblical art.

I was pondering how this Christian tradition should translate into the Calvinist tradition, with its particular concerns for biblical teaching, undiluted with excessive imagery, and focused on evangelism.

I recommend that a church of the Calvinist tradition should have just one symbol prominently displayed: A Crucifix.

Anyone stepping inside would see and know that this space is dedicated to spreading the one great biblical message: "Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."
A bare cross will suffice. "Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen and sitting at the right hand of the Father."
Del should know better than to mention a Crucifix in a thread where 'the boyz' are active. To most Protestants, how, why, when, or where Christ was crucified is less important than the fact that He overcame death. I'm sure that we're in the minority of Protestants because we display a Crucifix in our home.
In high school, I attended a Baptist Church where there seemed to be only two kinds of sermons - altar calls and anti-Catholic tirades.

I clearly remember one sermon where the pastor ranted against necklaces with crucifixes on them. “Would you wear an electric chair around your neck?” he screamed.

He was the pastor I first heard use the inflammatory term, “Maryolatry.”

Even then, largely ignorant of church history, I found his preaching divisive and hate filled. Worse, even then, I thought his sermons were almost totally lacking in “food” for his flock.

Several of us who were high school seniors chose to attend a Christian college that pastor thought far too liberal. “You’ll lose your faith there,” he warned us. In terms of his understanding of the Christian faith, it turned out he was pretty much right about all of us.

Several in our group became, gasp, Episcopalians - which to him was just as bad as being Catholic. :D
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by FredS » Tue May 04, 2021 10:56 am

durangopipe wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 10:26 am
FredS wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 10:10 am
Jester wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:01 am
Del wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:43 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:58 pm
Del wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:20 pm
coco wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:31 am
Sir Moose wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:05 am
Jester wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:04 am
Very cool. There is only a small group of Reformed Evangelicals that still think we should have beautiful architecture for our churches.
I think we miss out because of this.
The Greek word that is translated as "church" means "assembly of people," not "building." Each of the believers is a temple of God, and so church is when the temples come together to worship. There is not NT precedent for pretty buildings, and most NT churches met in someone's house.

That being said, I think that church buildings in the shape of a cross are cool. I particularly like the mission aesthetic of this one. Feel free to make fun of me now.
In English, we use the word church to translate ekklesia, and also to describe the building where the church assembles and worships. The local Church meets at a local church. In the middle 100's, St. Iranaeus of Lyons wrote that "one can go into any town and ask 'Where does the Catholic Church meet? and the resident will answer." [He wasn't writing in English, of course. He was defending the Ekklesia Katholika from the various local gnostic sects.]

My point is that no one seriously confuses the Universal Church with any church building, not even in English.
----------------------------------------------
,,,
Yep. You missed the point.
I have been meditating a long time on this.

The early Christians were full of missionary zeal. When they were able to openly work in peace, they built churches to assist their missionary work. They didn't decorate their churches just to be pretty -- they wanted their places of worship to speak the Gospel news even when no one was preaching or worshipping. Thus Christian architecture is full of iconography and biblical art.

I was pondering how this Christian tradition should translate into the Calvinist tradition, with its particular concerns for biblical teaching, undiluted with excessive imagery, and focused on evangelism.

I recommend that a church of the Calvinist tradition should have just one symbol prominently displayed: A Crucifix.

Anyone stepping inside would see and know that this space is dedicated to spreading the one great biblical message: "Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."
A bare cross will suffice. "Jesus Christ, Him crucified, risen and sitting at the right hand of the Father."
Del should know better than to mention a Crucifix in a thread where 'the boyz' are active. To most Protestants, how, why, when, or where Christ was crucified is less important than the fact that He overcame death. I'm sure that we're in the minority of Protestants because we display a Crucifix in our home.
In high school, I attended a Baptist Church where there seemed to be only two kinds of sermons - altar calls and anti-Catholic tirades.

I clearly remember one sermon where the pastor ranted against necklaces with crucifixes on them. “Would you wear an electric chair around your neck?” he screamed.

He was the pastor I first heard use the inflammatory term, “Maryolatry.”

Even then, largely ignorant of church history, I found his preaching divisive and hate filled. Worse, even then, I thought his sermons were almost totally lacking in “food” for his flock.

Several of us who were high school seniors chose to attend a Christian college that pastor thought far too liberal. “You’ll lose your faith there,” he warned us. In terms of his understanding of the Christian faith, it turned out he was pretty much right about all of us.

Several in our group became, gasp, Episcopalians - which to him was just as bad as being Catholic. :D
Crucifixion was a ghastly, cruel death sentence. It doesn't take much imagining to think that a modern-day Pontius Pilate might very well drag an electric chair to the town square to put the Christ to death.

It chills me to the bone to consider how He suffered for me. I pray I don't ever forget or minimize His pain on that day.
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by Cleon » Tue May 04, 2021 1:52 pm

I don't think we have the craftsmen and artisans in the numbers needed to make or repair these kinds of buildings anymore. At least not in smaller, rural areas. It's a pain to even replace a pane of stained glass.
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by tuttle » Wed May 05, 2021 7:22 am

Cleon wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 1:52 pm
I don't think we have the craftsmen and artisans in the numbers needed to make or repair these kinds of buildings anymore. At least not in smaller, rural areas. It's a pain to even replace a pane of stained glass.
Which further reveals that it's a modernity problem. Less artisans building or fixing church structures and more web designers building and fixing church websites. That's not discounting people skilled as web designers as much as it is an observation of a shift.
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by Jester » Wed May 05, 2021 7:37 am

tuttle wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 7:22 am
Cleon wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 1:52 pm
I don't think we have the craftsmen and artisans in the numbers needed to make or repair these kinds of buildings anymore. At least not in smaller, rural areas. It's a pain to even replace a pane of stained glass.
Which further reveals that it's a modernity problem. Less artisans building or fixing church structures and more web designers building and fixing church websites. That's not discounting people skilled as web designers as much as it is an observation of a shift.
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by Roadmaster » Wed May 05, 2021 9:55 am

I never understood the fuss over a plain cross as opposed to a crucifix. They mean the same thing. I agree with Fred, not a Catholic but prefer the crucifix. It's not like there is a patent or copyright on it.

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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by FredS » Wed May 05, 2021 10:50 am

Roadmaster wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:55 am
I never understood the fuss over a plain cross as opposed to a crucifix. They mean the same thing. I agree with Fred, not a Catholic but prefer the crucifix. It's not like there is a patent or copyright on it.
Some Protestants though, like the minister durangopipe wrote of, see it as focusing too much on the manner of death rather than the eventual resurrection. I think there's value in remembering how awful that death was though. The fact that Jesus was scared as He drug that cross up the hill and that he wept in pain as the spikes were driven though Him carries a lot of weight. I've heard - really - people say that displaying a crucifix is like killing Christ over and over again. Or that "it's a Catholic thing™ " and must be shunned. To me, it's just one more Catholic baby we threw out with the bathwater. There's a lot of good great tradition between a crucifix and the idea of papal infallibility or praying to/through St Mary. A lot of tradition we can all lean on.
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Re: The largest RC parish church (3,000 cap) is being built

Post by Jester » Wed May 05, 2021 11:32 am

FredS wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:50 am
Roadmaster wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 9:55 am
I never understood the fuss over a plain cross as opposed to a crucifix. They mean the same thing. I agree with Fred, not a Catholic but prefer the crucifix. It's not like there is a patent or copyright on it.
Some Protestants though, like the minister durangopipe wrote of, see it as focusing too much on the manner of death rather than the eventual resurrection. I think there's value in remembering how awful that death was though. The fact that Jesus was scared as He drug that cross up the hill and that he wept in pain as the spikes were driven though Him carries a lot of weight. I've heard - really - people say that displaying a crucifix is like killing Christ over and over again. Or that "it's a Catholic thing™ " and must be shunned. To me, it's just one more Catholic baby we threw out with the bathwater. There's a lot of good great tradition between a crucifix and the idea of papal infallibility or praying to/through St Mary. A lot of tradition we can all lean on.
It goes more in line with graven images. At the time of the Reformation there were people praying to certain crucifixes making the focus of worship on an image of God rather than God Himself. I have never heard the argument made that it kills Christ again or its too gruesome though I can imagine there is that crowd.

There is nothing wrong with a crucifix or place of worship unless those things become the object or the intermediary. There is nothing wrong with symbolism or traditions that remind us or even teach us.

Calvin's worry was that people would see an image of God made from man and that would become their reference point. We hear this complaint today when people complain about white Jesus or Black Jesus images. When you think of Jesus, when you meditate on Him and worship Him, what image comes to mind?
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