Bulldogs

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SteveH
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Bulldogs

Post by SteveH » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:50 am

I love 'em. Here are mine:

Image

Clockwise from top;
Blakemar 'Aristocrat', bought yesterday at the Pipe Club of London meeting
Two more Blakemars
Sort-of-bulldog of unknown make
Unknown make, originally sold by Astley's, reconditioned by Ian Walker of Northern Briars
Invicta
Invicta 'Gaddesden', another sort-of-bulldog.

Let's see yours!
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by jruegg » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:55 am

I'm always confused about the difference between bulldogs and rhodesians. I think that's because there isn't much consensus on the matter. Maybe it's because I don't care enough to commit those facts to memory.

All of that to say, nice collection or rhobullblins. (I'm pretty sure Gaddesden would be considered some type of Dublin, wouldn't it?)
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by Rusty » Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:57 am

I only see one Bulldog dancing with with a bunch of dirty Rhodesians and a scoop. You're giving Englishmen a bad name.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by Hovannes » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:21 am

Rusty wrote:I only see one Bulldog dancing with with a bunch of dirty Rhodesians and a scoop. You're giving Englishmen a bad name.
The straight at 3 o'clock?
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by Rusty » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:30 am

Hovannes wrote:
Rusty wrote:I only see one Bulldog dancing with with a bunch of dirty Rhodesians and a scoop. You're giving Englishmen a bad name.
The straight at 3 o'clock?
Aye. The one that is upside-down. You'd think he is Aussie committing such a travesty.

Let's at least move the dawg into the 6 'o clock position..

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Re: Bulldogs

Post by SteveH » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:31 am

jruegg wrote:I'm always confused about the difference between bulldogs and rhodesians. I think that's because there isn't much consensus on the matter. Maybe it's because I don't care enough to commit those facts to memory.
Me too - I just call 'em all bulldogs nowadays. Invicta calls its model a 'Rhodesian' on its website, though*.

All of that to say, nice collection or rhobullblins. (I'm pretty sure Gaddesden would be considered some type of Dublin, wouldn't it?)
Dunno about the Gaddesden being a Dublin - the somewhat bulbous rim rules that out, I'd've thought. Still, glad you like 'em, whatever they're called.

*P.S. - G.Q. Tobaccos reckon it's diamond shank = bulldog, round shank = Rhodesian, and either can be straight ot bent.
Last edited by SteveH on Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by SteveH » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:34 am

Rusty wrote:
Hovannes wrote:
Rusty wrote:I only see one Bulldog dancing with with a bunch of dirty Rhodesians and a scoop. You're giving Englishmen a bad name.
The straight at 3 o'clock?
Aye. The one that is upside-down. You'd think he is Aussie committing such a travesty.

Let's at least move the dawg into the 6 'o clock position..
I take it your definition is the dogs are straight and rhos are bent. I once thought it was the other way round, or alternatively, that dogs had diamond stems and rhos round ones, but I've seen so many photos of them which name them the other way round in both cases that I don't know any more.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by Rusty » Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:47 am

SteveH wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Hovannes wrote:
Rusty wrote:I only see one Bulldog dancing with with a bunch of dirty Rhodesians and a scoop. You're giving Englishmen a bad name.
The straight at 3 o'clock?
Aye. The one that is upside-down. You'd think he is Aussie committing such a travesty.

Let's at least move the dawg into the 6 'o clock position..
I take it your definition is the dogs are straight and rhos are bent. I once thought it was the other way round, or alternatively, that dogs had diamond stems and rhos round ones, but I've seen so many photos of them which name them the other way round in both cases that I don't know any more.
Nope. This is becoming shameful. There are Americans watching! Next they'll conclude that the sun has set on Britannia.

There are bent Bulldogs. None are shown in your pic. There is a shape chart in the library...

Image

Hmmm an eye test chart. :lol: Check it out at the URL http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2v0e9vc&s=3

Most people side with Cleon and will distinguish them by round vs. diamond shank. But the bowls are actually different on Rhodies vs Bulldogs. The Rhodies are fat bottom girls and often (but not always) have round shanks.

How about taking some pics of your collection and posting it in the 'Pics of my pipe collection' thread? You'll see some of my dawgs too. It's a nice thread that we can always find. Unfortunately some of the pics from early in the thread have died. But if we return and keep it going then maybe they'll fix them.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by AFRS » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:45 am

I thought this thread was going to be about bulldogs. :(


FTR I wouldn't put my ass on that cushion or settee or whatever it is, let alone a fist full of pipes. Gro-deeeeeee.

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Re: Bulldogs

Post by SteveH » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:50 am

Well, Bill Burney, author of the Pipedia pipe chart, reckons that the shape of the shank is the decider: diamond = bulldog, round = Rhodesian. I think I'll go by that from now on. Personally, I love fat-bottomed girls, and am jolly glad they're not all in Rhodesia.
I will post a daguerrotype of my collection in your thread soon.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by SteveH » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:28 am

Rusty wrote: How about taking some pics of your collection and posting it in the 'Pics of my pipe collection' thread? You'll see some of my dawgs too. It's a nice thread that we can always find. Unfortunately some of the pics from early in the thread have died. But if we return and keep it going then maybe they'll fix them.
Done.
AFRS wrote:

FTR I wouldn't put my ass on that cushion or settee or whatever it is, let alone a fist full of pipes. Gro-deeeeeee.
Since you won't be invited to, the issue doesn't arise.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by SlowToke » Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:40 pm

I've heard it said that, early in the evolution of the shapes, it was the height of the cone that makes up the upper part of the bowl. Tall = bulldog. Squat = Rhodesian. It seems that some Italian pipemakers use that classification still. I once had a Ser Jacopo that was bent with a round shank and tall bowl stamped 'Bulldog'. It seems that the most popular classification these days is round shank = Rhodesian and diamond shank = bulldog.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by Rusty » Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:39 pm

SteveH wrote:Well, Bill Burney, author of the Pipedia pipe chart, reckons that the shape of the shank is the decider: diamond = bulldog, round = Rhodesian. I think I'll go by that from now on. Personally, I love fat-bottomed girls, and am jolly glad they're not all in Rhodesia.
I will post a daguerrotype of my collection in your thread soon.
I thought, from your style of posting pics of your collection, that you too might not go with the accepted idea. You seem to have contrary air about you. But maybe it depends upon the issue. Burney's language suggests that he is acquiescing in the interests of communication. Most people want a simple rule. And I think that is a simple rule. Cleon has been trying to get me to agree with him for years. But there is a difference beyond that. All you have to do is turn the pipes over so they're sitting on the bowl rims and look at the bowl bottoms - the difference is obvious. If there isn't a difference then they're same type. So it's a recent convention that is not consistent with the way many of the manufacturers name them. So a mystery remains. Most here get the shapes wrong often enough that I think the Bulldog/Rhodie issue is the least problem. And it remains something to talk about so I think it's fine. That's definitely a service. We need more pipe talk. Closing off subjects is not in our interest. Besides I'm bilingual. I can understand them well enough.

About these photos of heaps of pipes;it's pretty hard to ask about the ones buried. Did you think it was art? What were you thinking? You looked at all the neat rows from everyone else and decided that's not for you? I imagined that you picked up the pipe racks and emptied them from some height and then stirred and compressed the pile. It says the most terrible things about the way your pipes are cared for. You may have noticed that Christians are not very judgmental (yeah, right!), so you're probably alright but I can't help wondering who would do such a thing. Steve would. He's a contrary devil that abuses his pipes in a thread intended for exactly the opposite. That's the message.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by Hovannes » Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:51 pm

Rusty wrote:
SteveH wrote:Well, Bill Burney, author of the Pipedia pipe chart, reckons that the shape of the shank is the decider: diamond = bulldog, round = Rhodesian. I think I'll go by that from now on. Personally, I love fat-bottomed girls, and am jolly glad they're not all in Rhodesia.
I will post a daguerrotype of my collection in your thread soon.
I thought, from your style of posting pics of your collection, that you too might not go with the accepted idea. You seem to have contrary air about you. But maybe it depends upon the issue. Burney's language suggests that he is acquiescing in the interests of communication. Most people want a simple rule. And I think that is a simple rule. Cleon has been trying to get me to agree with him for years. But there is a difference beyond that. All you have to do is turn the pipes over so they're sitting on the bowl rims and look at the bowl bottoms - the difference is obvious. If there isn't a difference then they're same type. So it's a recent convention that is not consistent with the way many of the manufacturers name them. So a mystery remains. Most here get the shapes wrong often enough that I think the Bulldog/Rhodie issue is the least problem. And it remains something to talk about so I think it's fine. That's definitely a service. We need more pipe talk. Closing off subjects is not in our interest. Besides I'm bilingual. I can understand them well enough.

About these photos of heaps of pipes;it's pretty hard to ask about the ones buried. Did you think it was art? What were you thinking? You looked at all the neat rows from everyone else and decided that's not for you? I imagined that you picked up the pipe racks and emptied them from some height and then stirred and compressed the pile. It says the most terrible things about the way your pipes are cared for. You may have noticed that Christians are not very judgmental (yeah, right!), so you're probably alright but I can't help wondering who would do such a thing. Steve would. He's a contrary devil that abuses his pipes in a thread intended for exactly the opposite. That's the message.
I thought the arrangement of pipes was, you know, sort of a grand homage to Busby Berkeley. Charming.
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Last edited by Hovannes on Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by SteveH » Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:11 pm

Hovannes - Busby Berkeley? You refer, I assume, to the circular arrangement of my bulldogs. I see what you mean.
Rusty - fear not - I didn't drop my pipes on masse from s height; I put them down one by one. The photos are thus carefully arranged chaos.
As for definition - I'm sticking with shank shape from now on, since that's obviously one or the other, with no in between. Bottoms are on a sliding scale from slim to steatopygeous, making it difficult to decide where a bulldog ends and a Rhodesian begins.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by Cleon » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:51 pm

I've gone round and round with Rusty about this. I think a diamond shank distiguishes a bulldog from a Rhodesian. Rhodesians have round shanks. Bulldogs have diamond shanks. GLP and a whole host of others back me up (including the Grabow company). GLP makes the claim that the more traditional makers distiguish bulldogs from Rhodesians in this way. I've emailed him about his source(s) for this claim, but I've not received a response.

Rusty thinks the definition hinges on the inclination of the top of the bowl - Rodesians having a more acute angle than a bulldog. That seems too nebulous to me. What's the cut off angle? Rusty has a whole host of sources to back him up too.
Pease on bulldogs and Rhodesians

I'm with Mr. Pease. Rusty is wrong. Sort of.

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Re: Bulldogs

Post by Rusty » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:28 pm

Cleon wrote:Rusty is wrong. Sort of.
Sort of? It seems uncertain. Let's go to your favourite factory pipe maker and see how their shape names jive with your guideline.

What does Dunhill call the P quaint shape?
They call it a Bent Rhodesian. It has a diamond shank.
Image


What does Dunhill call the modern shape #17?
They call it a straight Rhodesian. It has a diamond shank

What does Dunhill call the modern shape #08?
They call it a Bent Rhodesian. It has a diamond shank.
Image


What does Dunhill call the modern shape #04?
They call it a Bulldog. It also has a diamond shank.
Image

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This contradicts your guideline for Rhodesians. Where are the round shanks? Is Dunhill wrong too... sort of?
Over a hundred years of being wrong... sort of. Oh c'mon, you don't really believe that's the explanation.
Dunhill isn't the lone manufacturer on this naming either. We've been here before. Is that why you say "sort of"?
Case in point... Here's Invicta being consistent with Dunhill & moi.

Image

Another? Here's Upshall being consistent with Dunhill & moi.

Image

Need I go on? Yes? Ok one or two more? Let's make it two.

Here's Blakemar Briars and again consistent with Dunhill & moi.

Image

Here's Northern Briars - Checkout the shanks on the Bulldog & the Rhodesian.

Image

Let's be honest, there is something amiss with your guideline, isn't there? Admit it.
Powerful allies has Rusty. Yeeesss. The force is strong with this one. :lol:
Last edited by Rusty on Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by SteveH » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:56 pm

I've got an Invicta exactly like the one in the photo sbove, but, though they call it a rhodesian, I call it a bulldog. So there. Aesthetically, I prefer the squatter top, whatever it's called.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by Rusty » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:22 pm

SteveH wrote:I've got an Invicta exactly like the one in the photo sbove, but, though they call it a rhodesian, I call it a bulldog. So there. Aesthetically, I prefer the squatter top, whatever it's called.
Yes, well it's called a Rhodesian. That diamond shank doesn't change the name to Bulldog.
The Brits in particular (except you apparently) distinguish a Rhodesian and a Bulldog independent of the shank being round or diamond.

That tells me that the guideline from Cleon & the rest of Americans isn't reality. These are both British shapes. And the American rule is inconsistent with the British naming of those shapes. There is a lot of tradition and time behind a consistent naming scheme for British shapes. You can consult very old Dunhill and Charatan catalogues and they're consistent.

The evidence is clear.
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Re: Bulldogs

Post by SteveH » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:27 pm

Yeah but no but yeah but no but the bulldog and the Rhodesian in the Northern Briars catalogue both seem to have the squatter top! Still, if you're right about the stem shape being the American distinction, I'll change my mind and agree with you. Can't have these ex-colonials telling us what's what, what what?
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