Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by Thunktank » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:00 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:05 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:20 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:15 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:14 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:11 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:03 pm
Del suffers from Mother Earth nihilism. What if Mary, the bearer of the mysterious incarnation is united in suffering with the earth? 8O
Pope Francis is concerned.
About my theology or Mary’s suffering? :lol:
About the Earth! But probably the others, too. :lol:
Well, if any Pope can get pantheistic incarnationation theology a Jesuit one can. :P
Let me tell you. One of our associate priests is a Jesuit, and his homilies are the most rambling, digressive speeches I've ever heard. I'm not sure if he's on another plane or just not quite there. He seems nice enough. But then he also says "pray sisters and brothers" instead of "pray brothers and sisters." I just hope the Mass is valid, honestly.
If not for the work of the Jesuits we would all be Protestants by name in addition to being Protestants in fact. :wink:

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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by JimVH » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:01 pm

Y’all have no respect for the sanctity of the youth room.

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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by Del » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:06 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:11 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:06 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:11 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:03 pm
Del suffers from Mother Earth nihilism. What if Mary, the bearer of the mysterious incarnation is united in suffering with the earth? 8O
Pope Francis is concerned.
Obama too.
And what of the two prior popes' concerns for the environment? What about the pro-life, stewardship aspect?

I'll never understand the line of thought that we can't stop it and shouldn't try to clean up our atmosphere and avoid fossil fuels when possible. At the very least, why not try to preserve our resources? Why not try to limit the garbage pumped into our air by the combustion of fossil fuels and coal? I mean, honestly, what is the harm in trying to make our air cleaner and our oceans devoid of garbage?

I won't even touch the "it's cold in April so what do the scientists know???" argument. Sea levels, baby.
Mostly, I just wanted to complain about the weather.
===============================================

We should all be concerned with good stewardship of the earth and resources in our care.

Doesn't matter whether one is a gnostic believer or a data denier with regard to climate change theories. We are Christians -- we must take care of our things. We have a duty to preserve our common home (our culture and our environment) for future generations.

And by all means! -- If you haven't been trying to reduce your waste of energy or production of trash, please get started right away!

If this thread has a serious point, then it is a warning to avoid two common errors:

1) Don't think that anything you do is going to change the weather/climate. (We don't have that kind of control, even if we sign another accord.)

2) Do think that wasting resources and trashing the planet will cause some harm. Be mindful, be conservative.
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

"I shall not wear a crown of gold where my Master wore a crown of thorns." - Godfrey de Bouillon

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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by Del » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:18 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:00 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:05 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:20 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:15 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:14 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:11 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:03 pm
Del suffers from Mother Earth nihilism. What if Mary, the bearer of the mysterious incarnation is united in suffering with the earth? 8O
Pope Francis is concerned.
About my theology or Mary’s suffering? :lol:
About the Earth! But probably the others, too. :lol:
Well, if any Pope can get pantheistic incarnationation theology a Jesuit one can. :P
Let me tell you. One of our associate priests is a Jesuit, and his homilies are the most rambling, digressive speeches I've ever heard. I'm not sure if he's on another plane or just not quite there. He seems nice enough. But then he also says "pray sisters and brothers" instead of "pray brothers and sisters." I just hope the Mass is valid, honestly.
If not for the work of the Jesuits we would all be Protestants by name in addition to being Protestants in fact. :wink:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
JimVH wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:01 pm
Y’all have no respect for the sanctity of the youth room.
Image
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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by tuttle » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:38 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:11 pm
I mean, honestly, what is the harm in trying to make our air cleaner and our oceans devoid of garbage?
I think what rubs people wrong isn't that we ought to try to clean up the environment, but the ways in which people try to go about doing it, and the nefarious ways in which people take advantage of something everyone for the most part agrees is the right thing to do. I'm thinking about government regulations and how they try to grab more power with every chance they get by removing as much freedom without consent as possible.

Objecting to that kind of thing is tough to do in the public square because it gives the people who want to grab that power an excuse to say how much you hate the environment.
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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by Goose55 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:39 am

A question we need to ask ourselves is has there ever been 7.5 billion people on earth all wanting to burn fossil fuels?
"At present we're on the wrong side of the door. But all the pages of the New Testament are rustling with the rumor that it will not always be so." ~ C.S. Lewis

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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by gaining_age » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:58 am

Goose55 wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:39 am
A question we need to ask ourselves is has there ever been 7.5 billion people on earth all wanting to burn fossil fuels?
No. Only about as many as wanting to borrow your wifi.
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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by coco » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:43 am

JimVH wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:01 pm
Y’all have no respect for the sanctity of the youth room.
We are in the youth room?

Oh.

I'm with Wos then: "What's the funny part?"
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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by JimVH » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:09 am

coco wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:43 am
JimVH wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:01 pm
Y’all have no respect for the sanctity of the youth room.
We are in the youth room?

Oh.

I'm with Wos then: "What's the funny part?"
I'm just upset because noone laughed at my dad joke.

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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by gaining_age » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:33 am

JimVH wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:09 am
coco wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:43 am
JimVH wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:01 pm
Y’all have no respect for the sanctity of the youth room.
We are in the youth room?

Oh.

I'm with Wos then: "What's the funny part?"
I'm just upset because noone laughed at my dad joke.
It was bad... Aparently.
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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by Del » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:52 am

coco wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:43 am
JimVH wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:01 pm
Y’all have no respect for the sanctity of the youth room.
We are in the youth room?

Oh.

I'm with Wos then: "What's the funny part?"
Fair enough.

Of course, if I had posted this in the Theology Room, we would all ask "What does this nonsense have to do with theology?"
"Utter frogshit from start to finish." - Onyx

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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by Jester » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:05 am

Del wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:52 am
coco wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:43 am
JimVH wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:01 pm
Y’all have no respect for the sanctity of the youth room.
We are in the youth room?

Oh.

I'm with Wos then: "What's the funny part?"
Fair enough.

Of course, if I had posted this in the Theology Room, we would all ask "What does this nonsense have to do with theology?"
I am still asking that question. :lol:
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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by FredS » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:43 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:11 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:06 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:11 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:03 pm
Del suffers from Mother Earth nihilism. What if Mary, the bearer of the mysterious incarnation is united in suffering with the earth? 8O
Pope Francis is concerned.
Obama too.
And what of the two prior popes' concerns for the environment? What about the pro-life, stewardship aspect?

I'll never understand the line of thought that we can't stop it and shouldn't try to clean up our atmosphere and avoid fossil fuels when possible. At the very least, why not try to preserve our resources? Why not try to limit the garbage pumped into our air by the combustion of fossil fuels and coal? I mean, honestly, what is the harm in trying to make our air cleaner and our oceans devoid of garbage?

I won't even touch the "it's cold in April so what do the scientists know???" argument. Sea levels, baby.
Are you being serious right now? Do you not realize there are hundreds of thousands of scientists, professors, grad students, and entrepreneurs working right this minute, in labs around the world to find ways to clean our atmosphere, reduce fossil fuel use,and increase alternative energy use? You think CAFE standards have not decreased the pollutants pumped out by our vehicles? You think we're not recycling our trash more today than we were last year?

Get out of here with your "I'll never understand the line of thought that we can't stop it and shouldn't try to clean up our atmosphere and avoid fossil fuels when possible" argument because it's just stupid to think we're not doing what we can. We (developed countries) have been working on this for 50 years and you think we've not made progress? We're not trying? We've erected hundreds of thousands wind generators. We've built huge solar farms. We've shut down coal plants and cleaned those that are left. We've placed electric car charging stations where people gather in every mid-sized city. We've phased out incandescent light bulbs in favor of more energy efficient ones. We've implemented curbside recycling on thousands of cities. We've built HOV and built lanes in many towns to encourage car pooling and bike riding. We use the internet to promote telework to reduce commuting. Look around you man.

Gee, I wish somebody would do something.

Also. . .We couldn't have stopped the previous cold/warm cycles and we can't stop climate change now either. To the extent that our actions are changing the climate, we can reduce our impact. But the earths climate has never been stable (seen any pet dinosaurs lately?) and it's arrogant to think we can totally control it. There's a normal hot cold cycle and, since the last ice age, it's been getting warmer. You (and I) poo poo the idea of cold/ snow in April as a micro-event. A momentary blip. You can't judge climate change by taking the short view. By the same token, our use of fossil fuels is a micro-event in the natural history of the earth.
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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by TNLawPiper » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:03 pm

FredS wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:43 am
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:11 pm
Del wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:06 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:11 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:03 pm
Del suffers from Mother Earth nihilism. What if Mary, the bearer of the mysterious incarnation is united in suffering with the earth? 8O
Pope Francis is concerned.
Obama too.
And what of the two prior popes' concerns for the environment? What about the pro-life, stewardship aspect?

I'll never understand the line of thought that we can't stop it and shouldn't try to clean up our atmosphere and avoid fossil fuels when possible. At the very least, why not try to preserve our resources? Why not try to limit the garbage pumped into our air by the combustion of fossil fuels and coal? I mean, honestly, what is the harm in trying to make our air cleaner and our oceans devoid of garbage?

I won't even touch the "it's cold in April so what do the scientists know???" argument. Sea levels, baby.
Are you being serious right now? Do you not realize there are hundreds of thousands of scientists, professors, grad students, and entrepreneurs working right this minute, in labs around the world to find ways to clean our atmosphere, reduce fossil fuel use,and increase alternative energy use? You think CAFE standards have not decreased the pollutants pumped out by our vehicles? You think we're not recycling our trash more today than we were last year?

Get out of here with your "I'll never understand the line of thought that we can't stop it and shouldn't try to clean up our atmosphere and avoid fossil fuels when possible" argument because it's just stupid to think we're not doing what we can. We (developed countries) have been working on this for 50 years and you think we've not made progress? We're not trying? We've erected hundreds of thousands wind generators. We've built huge solar farms. We've shut down coal plants and cleaned those that are left. We've placed electric car charging stations where people gather in every mid-sized city. We've phased out incandescent light bulbs in favor of more energy efficient ones. We've implemented curbside recycling on thousands of cities. We've built HOV and built lanes in many towns to encourage car pooling and bike riding. We use the internet to promote telework to reduce commuting. Look around you man.

Gee, I wish somebody would do something.

Also. . .We couldn't have stopped the previous cold/warm cycles and we can't stop climate change now either. To the extent that our actions are changing the climate, we can reduce our impact. But the earths climate has never been stable (seen any pet dinosaurs lately?) and it's arrogant to think we can totally control it. There's a normal hot cold cycle and, since the last ice age, it's been getting warmer. You (and I) poo poo the idea of cold/ snow in April as a micro-event. A momentary blip. You can't judge climate change by taking the short view. By the same token, our use of fossil fuels is a micro-event in the natural history of the earth.
And the government is doing its best to reverse those rules because The Little Man needs people to like him.

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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by Thunktank » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:14 pm

Let’s avoid the politics. We agree to that by being here.

In the end, the best way to deal with man made climate change is working individually and locally to clean up our act. The capital system can, under the right circumstances be useful in accomplishing that. My daily driver is a 4 cylinder car, I don’t have to have a huge house and the house I have can be energy efficient. The beef I eat could be grass fed (grass fed cattle actually provide good gasses to the atmosphere). :lol:

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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by coco » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:24 pm

Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:14 pm
grass fed cattle actually provide good gasses to the atmosphere
Having been behind a cow a time or two, I beg to differ.
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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by Thunktank » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:25 pm

coco wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:24 pm
Thunktank wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:14 pm
grass fed cattle actually provide good gasses to the atmosphere
Having been behind a cow a time or two, I beg to differ.
Me too, but it beats being behind a pig.

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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by Jester » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:48 pm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/judeclemen ... c5165c2a37
But there's much more to the electric car story than what you might be hearing. The anti-fossil-fuel business tends to forget and/or ignore the fact that electric cars are, obviously, just that ... powered by electricity, a secondary energy source that is mostly generated by the combustion of coal and natural gas both here in the U.S. and around the world.
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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by infidel » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:58 pm

Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:48 pm
https://www.forbes.com/sites/judeclemen ... c5165c2a37
But there's much more to the electric car story than what you might be hearing. The anti-fossil-fuel business tends to forget and/or ignore the fact that electric cars are, obviously, just that ... powered by electricity, a secondary energy source that is mostly generated by the combustion of coal and natural gas both here in the U.S. and around the world.
This is just pro-fossil fuel business missing the point, or trying to play down the fact that electric cars don't need them the way combustion cars do. Yes the electrons currently come from fossil fuels but they don't have to.
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Re: Climate Change Deniers and Why It Doesn't Matter

Post by FredS » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:15 pm

Jester wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:48 pm
https://www.forbes.com/sites/judeclemen ... c5165c2a37
But there's much more to the electric car story than what you might be hearing. The anti-fossil-fuel business tends to forget and/or ignore the fact that electric cars are, obviously, just that ... powered by electricity, a secondary energy source that is mostly generated by the combustion of coal and natural gas both here in the U.S. and around the world.
Still, electric cars can be greener than internal combustion-powered vehicles. But, like wind mills and hydroelectric generators, they're not the only answer and probably not the long-term answer. Contrary to what TNLP thinks, we're in a boom period for alternative energy exploration. We're like alligators that put everything in their mouth and spit it out if it ends up not being food.

Corn-based ethanol was a bad idea for the same reason cOrn cOb pipes are a bad idea. Corn is best used as food for us and the animals we want to eat.

Electric cars still use electricity produced by burning fossil fuels. Plus they're too expensive (even when production is scaled up) to gain widespread use.

Solar panels on the roof of your house are great, but they can't supply high density building like high rise apartments. And they sorta suck on rainy days.

We don't (much) use wood to generate power like our great grandparents did. They realized it was dirty, and besides, they couldn't grow enough trees to supply everyone, so they switched to coal, petroleum, and hydro. We can see the limits to those fules so we're revising our methods just like they did. I think our great grandchildren will use hydrogen to power their road vehicles and nukes to provide electricity for their houses. Those are the cleanest power sources we've yet discovered.
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