A Blog from the New Guy

Want to share something posted on your blog, or the fact that you have a blog? Here's one for the bloggers.
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A Blog from the New Guy

Post by PineyWoodPiper » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:09 am

It appears that writing a blog as a member of this forum, is akin to being a guitar player at an Evangelical Christian university.

That being said I have a blog that you guys can feel free to check out, give feedback on, and even critique. The blog is titled the Hollier not Holier Blog a play on my last name. And it basically covers theology, and current Christian issues from a millennials perspective (that probably sends shivers down most peoples spines.)

Here's the link:
http://www.holliernotholier.blogspot.com

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Re: A Blog from the New Guy

Post by Pepik » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:07 am

I think Rusty will zero in on your latest entry there on Morality.

I see common threads with some of the discussions that have occurred on this Forum in the past. You're in good company!
Rgrds,
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Re: A Blog from the New Guy

Post by coco » Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:24 am

The world needs moral accountability that is transcendent from humanity. If man can create his own morality, then it would be ever changing, constantly molded and shaped in order to fit the mindset of any particular culture. The issue with this is just that. Without any transcendent moral accountability we become lost in the unnavigable waters of relativism without any point of reference. We become sailors without the north star to guide us home in the night.
"... So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes" (Ephesians 4:14).
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Re: A Blog from the New Guy

Post by Rusty » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:34 pm

Pepik wrote:I think Rusty will zero in on your latest entry there on Morality.

I see common threads with some of the discussions that have occurred on this Forum in the past. You're in good company!
There's not much to zero in on. He's missing the point. And he is missed the same point in his post about the Pew forum article too.

Atheists don't matter and not many will go that way. They're like "me too" people. And you've mentioned just the current generation. The drift from Christianity long preceded them. Except for a little entertainment when they debate Christians they are irrelevant. As compared to the vocal intellectual atheists most atheists don't care enough about the topic to bother even discussing it. One has to pick on them to even get an admission of their stance. So mostly they have no axe to grind. A few intellectuals are outspoken but they're not offering an alternative that is useful. So they have very little influence. If you looked at the Pew forum statistics then you should have noticed that the proportion of atheists isn't growing. The unaffiliated & disaffected Christians are growing. But they're not atheists. And anyway the intellectual atheists and agnostics out there share your preoccupation with morality. Believe me, they feel deeply that it's their responsibility. And to a large extent that is why they speak up. I don't want to argue about intellectual atheists. The drift away from Christianity didn't start yesterday. It didn't start 50 years ago either. It has been going on for a few hundred years at least. And the real question is why is Christianity fading?

It should be abundantly obvious that organized Christianity offers all sorts of benefits that are completely absent in secular life. Even without dwelling on belief there is community and a concern, shared with the vocal atheists btw, as to how to live a good life. Yet people are walking away. Why? It's not just in the US, but rather throughout the western world, & many countries are further down the road than the US. So US politicians are also not the cause.

This is the question Christians should be addressing. And it is an issue of relevance.
Last edited by Rusty on Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Blog from the New Guy

Post by Pepik » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:36 pm

You "zeroed in" Rusty.
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Re: A Blog from the New Guy

Post by PineyWoodPiper » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:53 pm

Rusty wrote:
Pepik wrote:I think Rusty will zero in on your latest entry there on Morality.

I see common threads with some of the discussions that have occurred on this Forum in the past. You're in good company!
There's not much to zero in on. He's missing the point. And he is missed the same point in his post about the Pew forum article too.

Atheists don't matter and not many will go that way. They're like "me too" people. And you've mentioned just the current generation. The drift from Christianity long preceded them. Except for a little entertainment when they debate Christians they are irrelevant. As compared to the vocal intellectual atheists most atheists don't care enough about the topic to bother even discussing it. One has to pick on them to even get an admission of their stance. So mostly they have no axe to grind. A few intellectuals are outspoken but they're not offering an alternative that is useful. So they have very little influence. If you looked at the Pew forum statistics then you should have noticed that the proportion of atheists isn't growing. The unaffiliated & disaffected Christians are growing. But they're not atheists. And anyway the intellectual atheists and agnostics out there share your preoccupation with morality. Believe me, they feel deeply that it's their responsibility. And to a large extent that is why they speak up. I don't want to argue about intellectual atheists. The drift away from Christianity didn't start yesterday. It didn't start 50 years ago either. It has been going on for a few hundred years at least. And the real question is why is Christianity fading?

It should be abundantly obvious that organized Christianity offers all sorts of benefits that are completely absent in secular life. Even without dwelling on belief there is community and a concern, shared with the vocal atheists btw, as to how to live a good life. Yet people are walking away. Why? It's not just in the US, but rather throughout the western world, many are further down the road than the US. So US politicians are also not the cause.

This is the question Christians should be addressing. And it is an issue of relevance.
Thanks for the feedback.

I find that the issue doesn't seem to be solely relevance, rather the issue is authenticity. I was reading an article by Fr. Dwight Longenecker and I believe that he got it right when he said "... one of the main reasons people are leaving the Christian churches in America is not because the churches are too religious, but because they are not religious at all." I find this to be the point we have come to in western society. Many of our churches in the west don't offer much more than nice words. And apparently there seemed to be similar issues in the past, I believe it comes down to churches shifting our focus from the truth that is Jesus Christ, to focusing on other things, personal gains, power, money, whatever. I find that from my experience with friends who have walked away from the faith that they have a hard time coming to terms with Christianity in their new found relativistic world-view. I also don't think that you can deminish the impact that the intellectual atheists have had in our society because their system of believe has been propagated through the media, and other "elites".

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Re: A Blog from the New Guy

Post by coco » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:01 pm

PineyWoodPiper wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Pepik wrote:I think Rusty will zero in on your latest entry there on Morality.

I see common threads with some of the discussions that have occurred on this Forum in the past. You're in good company!
There's not much to zero in on. He's missing the point. And he is missed the same point in his post about the Pew forum article too.

Atheists don't matter and not many will go that way. They're like "me too" people. And you've mentioned just the current generation. The drift from Christianity long preceded them. Except for a little entertainment when they debate Christians they are irrelevant. As compared to the vocal intellectual atheists most atheists don't care enough about the topic to bother even discussing it. One has to pick on them to even get an admission of their stance. So mostly they have no axe to grind. A few intellectuals are outspoken but they're not offering an alternative that is useful. So they have very little influence. If you looked at the Pew forum statistics then you should have noticed that the proportion of atheists isn't growing. The unaffiliated & disaffected Christians are growing. But they're not atheists. And anyway the intellectual atheists and agnostics out there share your preoccupation with morality. Believe me, they feel deeply that it's their responsibility. And to a large extent that is why they speak up. I don't want to argue about intellectual atheists. The drift away from Christianity didn't start yesterday. It didn't start 50 years ago either. It has been going on for a few hundred years at least. And the real question is why is Christianity fading?

It should be abundantly obvious that organized Christianity offers all sorts of benefits that are completely absent in secular life. Even without dwelling on belief there is community and a concern, shared with the vocal atheists btw, as to how to live a good life. Yet people are walking away. Why? It's not just in the US, but rather throughout the western world, many are further down the road than the US. So US politicians are also not the cause.

This is the question Christians should be addressing. And it is an issue of relevance.
Thanks for the feedback.

I find that the issue doesn't seem to be solely relevance, rather the issue is authenticity. I was reading an article by Fr. Dwight Longenecker and I believe that he got it right when he said "... one of the main reasons people are leaving the Christian churches in America is not because the churches are too religious, but because they are not religious at all." I find this to be the point we have come to in western society. Many of our churches in the west don't offer much more than nice words. And apparently there seemed to be similar issues in the past, I believe it comes down to churches shifting our focus from the truth that is Jesus Christ, to focusing on other things, personal gains, power, money, whatever. I find that from my experience with friends who have walked away from the faith that they have a hard time coming to terms with Christianity in their new found relativistic world-view. I also don't think that you can deminish the impact that the intellectual atheists have had in our society because their system of believe has been propagated through the media, and other "elites".
I don't know if you two have been formally introduced. Rusty is one of our atheiagnostics. He is rather good with physics and math, and he has forgotten more about pipes and tobacco than most of us will ever know. He also provides a valuable counterpoint in many of our religious discussions.
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Re: A Blog from the New Guy

Post by PineyWoodPiper » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:08 pm

coco wrote:
PineyWoodPiper wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Pepik wrote:I think Rusty will zero in on your latest entry there on Morality.

I see common threads with some of the discussions that have occurred on this Forum in the past. You're in good company!
There's not much to zero in on. He's missing the point. And he is missed the same point in his post about the Pew forum article too.

Atheists don't matter and not many will go that way. They're like "me too" people. And you've mentioned just the current generation. The drift from Christianity long preceded them. Except for a little entertainment when they debate Christians they are irrelevant. As compared to the vocal intellectual atheists most atheists don't care enough about the topic to bother even discussing it. One has to pick on them to even get an admission of their stance. So mostly they have no axe to grind. A few intellectuals are outspoken but they're not offering an alternative that is useful. So they have very little influence. If you looked at the Pew forum statistics then you should have noticed that the proportion of atheists isn't growing. The unaffiliated & disaffected Christians are growing. But they're not atheists. And anyway the intellectual atheists and agnostics out there share your preoccupation with morality. Believe me, they feel deeply that it's their responsibility. And to a large extent that is why they speak up. I don't want to argue about intellectual atheists. The drift away from Christianity didn't start yesterday. It didn't start 50 years ago either. It has been going on for a few hundred years at least. And the real question is why is Christianity fading?

It should be abundantly obvious that organized Christianity offers all sorts of benefits that are completely absent in secular life. Even without dwelling on belief there is community and a concern, shared with the vocal atheists btw, as to how to live a good life. Yet people are walking away. Why? It's not just in the US, but rather throughout the western world, many are further down the road than the US. So US politicians are also not the cause.

This is the question Christians should be addressing. And it is an issue of relevance.
Thanks for the feedback.

I find that the issue doesn't seem to be solely relevance, rather the issue is authenticity. I was reading an article by Fr. Dwight Longenecker and I believe that he got it right when he said "... one of the main reasons people are leaving the Christian churches in America is not because the churches are too religious, but because they are not religious at all." I find this to be the point we have come to in western society. Many of our churches in the west don't offer much more than nice words. And apparently there seemed to be similar issues in the past, I believe it comes down to churches shifting our focus from the truth that is Jesus Christ, to focusing on other things, personal gains, power, money, whatever. I find that from my experience with friends who have walked away from the faith that they have a hard time coming to terms with Christianity in their new found relativistic world-view. I also don't think that you can deminish the impact that the intellectual atheists have had in our society because their system of believe has been propagated through the media, and other "elites".
I don't know if you two have been formally introduced. Rusty is one of our atheiagnostics. He is rather good with physics and math, and he has forgotten more about pipes and tobacco than most of us will ever know. He also provides a valuable counterpoint in many of our religious discussions.
Oh no we haven't been, thanks for feeling me in Coco. Rusty I look forward to getting to know you more and learning from your view point, I find many christians are too afraid to establish any form of meaningful relationships with people who have different opinions from themselves. I really do appreciate your feedback. Many people aren't fond of criticism, be it constructive or otherwise. Personally I love criticism; it is the only way people can grow and learn anything.

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Re: A Blog from the New Guy

Post by Rusty » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:44 pm

PineyWoodPiper wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Pepik wrote:I think Rusty will zero in on your latest entry there on Morality.

I see common threads with some of the discussions that have occurred on this Forum in the past. You're in good company!
There's not much to zero in on. He's missing the point. And he is missed the same point in his post about the Pew forum article too.

Atheists don't matter and not many will go that way. They're like "me too" people. And you've mentioned just the current generation. The drift from Christianity long preceded them. Except for a little entertainment when they debate Christians they are irrelevant. As compared to the vocal intellectual atheists most atheists don't care enough about the topic to bother even discussing it. One has to pick on them to even get an admission of their stance. So mostly they have no axe to grind. A few intellectuals are outspoken but they're not offering an alternative that is useful. So they have very little influence. If you looked at the Pew forum statistics then you should have noticed that the proportion of atheists isn't growing. The unaffiliated & disaffected Christians are growing. But they're not atheists. And anyway the intellectual atheists and agnostics out there share your preoccupation with morality. Believe me, they feel deeply that it's their responsibility. And to a large extent that is why they speak up. I don't want to argue about intellectual atheists. The drift away from Christianity didn't start yesterday. It didn't start 50 years ago either. It has been going on for a few hundred years at least. And the real question is why is Christianity fading?

It should be abundantly obvious that organized Christianity offers all sorts of benefits that are completely absent in secular life. Even without dwelling on belief there is community and a concern, shared with the vocal atheists btw, as to how to live a good life. Yet people are walking away. Why? It's not just in the US, but rather throughout the western world, many are further down the road than the US. So US politicians are also not the cause.

This is the question Christians should be addressing. And it is an issue of relevance.
Thanks for the feedback.

I find that the issue doesn't seem to be solely relevance, rather the issue is authenticity. I was reading an article by Fr. Dwight Longenecker and I believe that he got it right when he said "... one of the main reasons people are leaving the Christian churches in America is not because the churches are too religious, but because they are not religious at all." I find this to be the point we have come to in western society. Many of our churches in the west don't offer much more than nice words. And apparently there seemed to be similar issues in the past, I believe it comes down to churches shifting our focus from the truth that is Jesus Christ, to focusing on other things, personal gains, power, money, whatever. I find that from my experience with friends who have walked away from the faith that they have a hard time coming to terms with Christianity in their new found relativistic world-view. I also don't think that you can deminish the impact that the intellectual atheists have had in our society because their system of believe has been propagated through the media, and other "elites".
Before I say anything else I should say that I don;t know the answer.

The authenticity issue makes it roughly local in time at least. It's not local so I doubt that can be the cause. The Catholic faith is nothing if not authentic and it certainly has enormous intellectual depth yet despite anger and crazy expectations folks are leaving it. It's understandable that Christians would reach for authenticity because of the importance of belief. But I doubt it.

The drift is also proceeding very slowly. So it is also probably transforming Christian values as it goes. The supporters of LGBT rights are Christian. I first put up a vid of Laura Bush, years ago, answering the same topical questions about marriage equality and access to abortion. It's tough to argue that she is liberal/democrat but yet her thoughts are liberal on these issues and they're not in line with Christian dogma. She's out in front of Obama on these issues.

[BBvideo 560,340]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtNabdDx_mU[/BBvideo]

She was right about it coming.

The intellectual atheists aren't addressing any problem other than the existence of God and the supernatural which goes to belief in Christians and the atheists too. So I understand the sensitivity. But honestly what problems are they solving? A few years ago they developed a sensitivity about being called atheists. I can see their point; it's tough to rally around negation. So what did they do? Well they decided they needed to firm up the foundations for a philosophy of naturalism. The foundations of naturalism are not exactly addressing problems most people have. Instead when people like Daniel Dennett talk about their love of Christmas hymns they're much closer to things that can be shared with anyone. The issue and challenge for most isn't naturalism. Watching one of them presenting is interesting but the audience looks remarkably like folks recovering from a loss of faith who are trying to find meaning. The audience is not comprised of folks that are their intellectual equals. Answering the atheists criticisms & questions doesn't address meaning. If you ask them they'll tell you there is no meaning and it's that simple. The implication is that meaning is personal and created by us individually and in groups. Not what the average person wants to hear and it doesn't replace community, or the need for consoling empathy, nor the Christmas hymns. It doesn't address nor even criticize the benefits of organized Christianity. When the atheists start writing music and hymns of their own then it might be worth revisiting their threat.

[BBvideo 560,340]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jar-Wzy1gsI[/BBvideo]
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Re: A Blog from the New Guy

Post by PineyWoodPiper » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:18 pm

Rusty wrote:
PineyWoodPiper wrote:
Rusty wrote:
Pepik wrote:I think Rusty will zero in on your latest entry there on Morality.

I see common threads with some of the discussions that have occurred on this Forum in the past. You're in good company!
There's not much to zero in on. He's missing the point. And he is missed the same point in his post about the Pew forum article too.

Atheists don't matter and not many will go that way. They're like "me too" people. And you've mentioned just the current generation. The drift from Christianity long preceded them. Except for a little entertainment when they debate Christians they are irrelevant. As compared to the vocal intellectual atheists most atheists don't care enough about the topic to bother even discussing it. One has to pick on them to even get an admission of their stance. So mostly they have no axe to grind. A few intellectuals are outspoken but they're not offering an alternative that is useful. So they have very little influence. If you looked at the Pew forum statistics then you should have noticed that the proportion of atheists isn't growing. The unaffiliated & disaffected Christians are growing. But they're not atheists. And anyway the intellectual atheists and agnostics out there share your preoccupation with morality. Believe me, they feel deeply that it's their responsibility. And to a large extent that is why they speak up. I don't want to argue about intellectual atheists. The drift away from Christianity didn't start yesterday. It didn't start 50 years ago either. It has been going on for a few hundred years at least. And the real question is why is Christianity fading?

It should be abundantly obvious that organized Christianity offers all sorts of benefits that are completely absent in secular life. Even without dwelling on belief there is community and a concern, shared with the vocal atheists btw, as to how to live a good life. Yet people are walking away. Why? It's not just in the US, but rather throughout the western world, many are further down the road than the US. So US politicians are also not the cause.

This is the question Christians should be addressing. And it is an issue of relevance.
Thanks for the feedback.

I find that the issue doesn't seem to be solely relevance, rather the issue is authenticity. I was reading an article by Fr. Dwight Longenecker and I believe that he got it right when he said "... one of the main reasons people are leaving the Christian churches in America is not because the churches are too religious, but because they are not religious at all." I find this to be the point we have come to in western society. Many of our churches in the west don't offer much more than nice words. And apparently there seemed to be similar issues in the past, I believe it comes down to churches shifting our focus from the truth that is Jesus Christ, to focusing on other things, personal gains, power, money, whatever. I find that from my experience with friends who have walked away from the faith that they have a hard time coming to terms with Christianity in their new found relativistic world-view. I also don't think that you can deminish the impact that the intellectual atheists have had in our society because their system of believe has been propagated through the media, and other "elites".
Before I say anything else I should say that I don;t know the answer.

The authenticity issue makes it roughly local in time at least. It's not local so I doubt that can be the cause. The Catholic faith is nothing if not authentic and it certainly has enormous intellectual depth yet despite anger and crazy expectations folks are leaving it. It's understandable that Christians would reach for authenticity because of the importance of belief. But I doubt it.

The drift is also proceeding very slowly. So it is also probably transforming Christian values as it goes. The supporters of LGBT rights are Christian. I first put up a vid of Laura Bush, years ago, answering the same topical questions about marriage equality and access to abortion. It's tough to argue that she is liberal/democrat but yet her thoughts are liberal on these issues and they're not in line with Christian dogma. She's out in front of Obama on these issues.

[BBvideo 560,340]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtNabdDx_mU[/BBvideo]

She was right about it coming.

The intellectual atheists aren't addressing any problem other than the existence of God and the supernatural which goes to belief in Christians and the atheists too. So I understand the sensitivity. But honestly what problems are they solving? A few years ago they developed a sensitivity about being called atheists. I can see their point; it's tough to rally around negation. So what did they do? Well they decided they needed to firm up the foundations for a philosophy of naturalism. The foundations of naturalism are not exactly addressing problems most people have. Instead when people like Daniel Dennett talk about their love of Christmas hymns they're much closer to things that can be shared with anyone. The issue and challenge for most isn't naturalism. Watching one of them presenting is interesting but the audience looks remarkably like folks recovering from a loss of faith who are trying to find meaning. The audience is not comprised of folks that are their intellectual equals. Answering the atheists criticisms & questions doesn't address meaning. If you ask them they'll tell you there is no meaning and it's that simple. The implication is that meaning is personal and created by us individually and in groups. Not what the average person wants to hear and it doesn't replace community, or the need for consoling empathy, nor the Christmas hymns. It doesn't address nor even criticize the benefits of organized Christianity. When the atheists start writing music and hymns of their own then it might be worth revisiting their threat.

[BBvideo 560,340]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jar-Wzy1gsI[/BBvideo]
Sorry for just now getting back to you, been a busy day driving to Texas.

I don't really see what the point was in the Laura Bush video. As far as I can tell I think that Christians in practicing their faith reserve the right to not observe, endorse, or participate in same sex marriage nuptials. Christians from what I can tell from Christ's teachings are not meant to dictate to society what they can and cannot do, we are to be salt and the light and submit ourselves as Christians to the rule of Christ, not ask everyone else to submit regardless of their beliefs.

To your second point I don't see how as a human being we can give ourselves meaning, because once we die that meaning ceases. I would say that the delusion is in thinking that we can give our lives meaning ourselves in order to fill the human hunger for purpose. I personally don't see how that form of worldview is livable.

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Re: A Blog from the New Guy

Post by Onyx » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:23 pm

Oh man.
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