Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

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tobacco_tenderfoot
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Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by tobacco_tenderfoot » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:40 pm

On my current understanding and beliefs, I emphatically say no. But I don't claim to know everything.

Anyway, this started last night when on Facebook (I know..) on of my friends became a fan of the group "Support Gay Marriage in Ohio" and had her religious views listed as Christian. How can this be I thought.

I had a discussion about it with a couple of friends, one who had no strong opinions and enjoyed the stimulating conversation, and one who is for gay marriage and is Catholic.

Here are some key points from the discussion:

- In my opinion, some Christians fail to hold Biblical authority over governmental authority. The two are sometimes in harmony, but often times not. They are also very different. Just because I'm a U.S. citizen doesn't mean I have to let the laws alter my belief system.

- Homosexuality and related actions are a sin, not different in principle than getting drunk, murdering, lying, cheating on spouse, etc... Part of becoming a Christian is moving away from worldly and sinful practices and growing more pure in Christ. Through a relationship with Jesus people can be forgiven for and overcome homosexuality just like they can alcoholism.

- Some people view homosexuality differently than other sins claiming genetic reasons, and "this is how God made me". I'm no expert, but from what I read there is no such thing as a "gay gene" and that people often do not discern between causality and correlation. Especially the media.

- She tried to take Deut 22:13-19 and use it as an argument that any marriage that doesn't involve virgins is null and void. This was in response to my presenting verses that support marriage between a man and a woman, Genesis 2:18–25, Leviticus 18:22, Mark 10:6, Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, 1 Timothy 1:9–10. 1) I don't think Deut passage has anything to do with gay marriage, 2) I think her interpretation is somewhat questionable anyway, 3) I can see this point taking this thread in an entirely different direction. Also, she tried to interpret very specific parts of the Bible, but the Bible has to be looked at as a whole in my opinion. There's a reason we don't sacrifice goats and cows anymore.

- She then tried to discount my argument saying that people have sex before they are married. True, nowhere does the Bible say this is right. You can't discount the Bible by actions of man. The Bible is God's perfect word, and all men are sinners. And once again, this isn't an argument saying gay marriage is right.

At any rate, just thought I would turn to CPS for an opinion. Is my line of thinking off? Am I missing anything? Feel free to comment, again, I'm not claiming to be an expert in theology or the human genome project.
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Post by Cleon » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:47 pm

They can, but then they'd be wrong. :wink:
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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by jruegg » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:54 pm

tobacco_tenderfoot wrote:
- Some people view homosexuality differently than other sins claiming genetic reasons, and "this is how God made me". I'm no expert, but from what I read there is no such thing as a "gay gene" and that people often do not discern between causality and correlation. Especially the media.
I love the "this is how God made me" argument. It's so ridiculous. I think the argument goes, I am homosexual, it is the way I am, I desire sexual relationships with the same sex so I must have been made this way, so it is ok.

My response to that, as a heterosexual is this: I am a heterosexual, it is the way I am, I desire sexual relationships with the opposite sex so I must have been made this way so it is ok. WRONG! most people agree that adultery is a poor choice.

I am an angry person, it is the way I am, I desire to do physical violence on those that anger me so I must have been made this way so it is ok. WRONG! most people agree that violence is a poor choice.

I am a lying person, it is the way I am, I desire to make crap up constantly so I must have been made this way so it is ok....

etc. etc. etc.

Just because my nature is predisposed to a certain action does not make that action ethical or moral.


For a great book on the homosexuality debate from a Christian perspective, look up Thomas E. Schmidt's book Straight & Narrow?: Compasson & Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate
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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by jruegg » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:58 pm

tobacco_tenderfoot wrote:
- She then tried to discount my argument saying that people have sex before they are married. True, nowhere does the Bible say this is right. You can't discount the Bible by actions of man. The Bible is God's perfect word, and all men are sinners. And once again, this isn't an argument saying gay marriage is right.
To which I respond: Are sins acceptable because they are the sins of the majority?
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Post by OldWorldSwine » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:16 pm

No. It's not helpful to encourage people in their delusions.
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Post by anixi » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:34 pm

no.

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Post by Gabriel » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:35 pm

anixi wrote:no.
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Post by DepartedLight » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:37 pm

anixi wrote:no.
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Post by infidel » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:44 pm

Good golly, this topic never ceases to bring out the worst in believers.

The question is really "can a Christian support equal rights under the law for all citizens?" to which the answer should be (IMO) an emphatic "well, DUH".

Homosexuality is NOT in any way the "same in principle" as murder or other such sins. I mean, really. <redacted_emoji>

To say someone can "recover" from homosexuality like alcoholism is just retarded too. Human sexuality spans a spectrum (like practically any other trait), it's not just an either/or switch.
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Post by bryan » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:46 pm

Gay rights? An emphatic yes. Gay marriage? No.

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Post by Briarfox » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:52 pm

DepartedLight wrote:
anixi wrote:no.
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Post by TNLawPiper » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:58 pm

It is a matter of equal protection of the laws; to wit, if a heterosexual couple can enjoy the state-sanctioned fruits of their relationship, a homosexual couple must also be allowed the same rights.

Homosexuality is sinful, but America doesn't criminalize sins.

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Post by Thunktank » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:00 pm

infidel wrote: The question is really "can a Christian support equal rights under the law for all citizens?" to which the answer should be (IMO) an emphatic "well, DUH".
I will support equal rights under the law as a last ditch effort in a feeble attempt to defend that last bit of humanity remaining. But the day the law requires the Church to marry homosexuals is the day the church goes under ground and refuses to give the antchrists one iota of compliance. It would be better to die.

Like all sins, the church can tenderly care for those burdened with it and seek refuge from it's enslavement. God loves the sinner and will generously tend to those who love Him. The fall of man may well have effected the biological condition of people sexually, but this too can be overcome by a faithful person even if it doesn't make them a heterosexual. One is perfectly capable of being a man or woman without sex!
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Post by LushMojo » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:00 pm

.....only if both girls are smoking hot.

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Post by Gabriel » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:00 pm

infidel wrote:Good golly, this topic never ceases to bring out the worst in believers.

The question is really "can a Christian support equal rights under the law for all citizens?" to which the answer should be (IMO) an emphatic "well, DUH".
<redacted_emoji>

That tired objection? Two items:

- Instead of derailing the thread and jumping on your soapbox, you could answer the question. (although it was asked of Christians, so I'm not sure why you'd want to).

- Homosexuals DO have equal rights under the law. What they (as a movement) seem to want is special rights.
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Post by Briarfox » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:01 pm

Rights Yes, Marriage No
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Post by TNLawPiper » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:03 pm

Gabriel wrote:
infidel wrote:Good golly, this topic never ceases to bring out the worst in believers.

The question is really "can a Christian support equal rights under the law for all citizens?" to which the answer should be (IMO) an emphatic "well, DUH".
<redacted_emoji>

That tired objection? Two items:

- Instead of derailing the thread and jumping on your soapbox, you could answer the question. (although it was asked of Christians, so I'm not sure why you'd want to).

- Homosexuals DO have equal rights under the law. What they (as a movement) seem to want is special rights.
They want rights equal to those granted to heterosexual couples. Therefore, they want equal rights.

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Post by Thunktank » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:06 pm

LushMojo wrote:.....only if both girls are smoking hot.
That sounds Lushish.
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Post by Bigwill » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:07 pm

I am opposed to gay marriage, but I am also opposed to the government "civilizing" my marriage. The issues involved are distinct. For the government, "marriage" means legal rights and responsibilities willingly attached which wouldn't otherwise be (e.g., rights of survivorship, health care decisions, tax implications, etc.). Am I opposed to the government attaching those same rights and responsibilities to gay couples? Not in the slightest. But that doesn't make it a marriage.

My marriage, on the other hand, has nothing to do with those things. It's a Sacrament whose graces are confected every time my wife and I engage in the marital act. Am I opposed to gay couples being married? In the Catholic Church, yes. In other Churches, I don't make that decision for them.

So, that's my solution. Get the government out of the business of marriage altogether. Create something called a "civil U***n" between two consenting adults which creates agreed-upon rights and responsibilities. I have no issue with this. "Divorce" would become "dissolution of the civil U***n", and would be nothing more than the division of marital property (and custody issues--should those have arisen).

Leave marriages to whatever Churches want to perform them. And attach no legal rights or responsibilities to them whatsoever. If the Catholic Church doesn't want to allow two men to marry, so be it. If the Unitarian Universalist Church does, again, so be it. It's a matter of faith (or lack thereof; if one is without faith or without a Church, then he really shouldn't have a desire to get "married" in this scenario).
And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good? Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

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Post by TNLawPiper » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:09 pm

Bigwill wrote:I am opposed to gay marriage, but I am also opposed to the government "civilizing" my marriage. The issues involved are distinct. For the government, "marriage" means legal rights and responsibilities willingly attached which wouldn't otherwise be (e.g., rights of survivorship, health care decisions, tax implications, etc.). Am I opposed to the government attaching those same rights and responsibilities to gay couples? Not in the slightest. But that doesn't make it a marriage.

My marriage, on the other hand, has nothing to do with those things. It's a Sacrament whose graces are confected every time my wife and I engage in the marital act. Am I opposed to gay couples being married? In the Catholic Church, yes. In other Churches, I don't make that decision for them.

So, that's my solution. Get the government out of the business of marriage altogether. Create something called a "civil U***n" between two consenting adults which creates agreed-upon rights and responsibilities. I have no issue with this. "Divorce" would become "dissolution of the civil U***n", and would be nothing more than the division of marital property (and custody issues--should those have arisen).

Leave marriages to whatever Churches want to perform them. And attach no legal rights or responsibilities to them whatsoever. If the Catholic Church doesn't want to allow two men to marry, so be it. If the Unitarian Universalist Church does, again, so be it. It's a matter of faith (or lack thereof; if one is without faith or without a Church, then he really shouldn't have a desire to get "married" in this scenario).
+1, but unlikely to happen anytime soon.

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