Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by tuttle » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:46 am

Thunktank wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:15 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:42 am
Civilly:
We (Christians) have no desire to live under Muslim law. We believe their religion is wrong. Most gay people have no desire to live under Christian law. They believe our religion is wrong. They want the equal right to marry - with the attendent benefits our government ties to the contract - and don't give a flip about what religions have to say on the issue.

Religiously:
We (Christians) have a mandate from God to spread the faith and make disciples. This is where my inner conflict lies. There is great tension between loving my neighbor and sharing the gospel that would pull the rug out from under their entire worldview. Believe it or not, I err on the side of love. In this, I take cues from the Desert Fathers. They erred on love over fasting, or possessions, or personal or communal safety, or anything else. They certainly understood the commandment to not steal, yet they'd let a stranger rob them of every cent without raising a finger to stop them or report them. Their love of the thief was greater than their desire to 'correct' them. Those stories often end with the thief or stranger being so convicted (by the Spirit one assumes, not by the monk) that they repent and turn towards God.

This is the basis I use too when I approach these matters practically. I loosely embrace liberal principles when dealing with political and social issues, yet those principles very often stand in contrast to the perfection Christians are called to. Often, we need to deal with the world pragmatically when we excersize our temporal powers like voting. Yet, as a Christian we are called to perfection, to “come out from them” (II Corinthians 6:17). It’s a very fine line to walk at times when we choose to act in civil discourse, which I might add is optional for some.

Christians may have different options in dealing with such matters in the civil orders. Prayerfully approaching the voting booth while using our Christian formed intuition and reason we may vote and discuss moral matters in the world as a “light on the hill” and “salt of the world.”

However, there are some things we can know. Christians do do things wrongly sometimes, other things, just like the rest of the world, we must come to know better through learning and experience. We don’t know everything and we can learn new things using different forms of revelation about the truth of creation, math and science are two wonderful tools mankind developed to help with this. On the other hand, God also gave us a firm foundation in some revelation. Some of that revelation is not based in human understanding too, but the rules of human sexuality aren’t one of those. Human reason can support the commands from God about sexual activity. We can know them, believe them with assurance and act on them with that assurance. Our actions however, even though based in right faith and reason about the matter, may be a mistaken choice with consequences. This is especially true when we try to act with evangelical fervor and political action. In this way, I believe it is conceivable for Christians to “support” certain actions we wouldn’t do ourselves. But the principalities of this world can never force me to believe that homosexual marriage is what marriage is meant to be.
I'm sort of unfairly piggybacking off of your thoughts, but I'm doing so because it made me realize that the word "Support" might carry various meanings for different folks. If by 'support' one simply means can Christians merely tolerate a secular society allowing it, that's one thing. I can agree to that. But others, me for instance, have been viewing 'support' as something more close to the definition of the word: Bearing weight/upholding and giving assistance to something.

When framed that way it goes beyond whether we're asking if it's okay for Christians to recognize a legal reality.
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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by Thunktank » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:40 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:46 am
Thunktank wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:15 pm
FredS wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:42 am
Civilly:
We (Christians) have no desire to live under Muslim law. We believe their religion is wrong. Most gay people have no desire to live under Christian law. They believe our religion is wrong. They want the equal right to marry - with the attendent benefits our government ties to the contract - and don't give a flip about what religions have to say on the issue.

Religiously:
We (Christians) have a mandate from God to spread the faith and make disciples. This is where my inner conflict lies. There is great tension between loving my neighbor and sharing the gospel that would pull the rug out from under their entire worldview. Believe it or not, I err on the side of love. In this, I take cues from the Desert Fathers. They erred on love over fasting, or possessions, or personal or communal safety, or anything else. They certainly understood the commandment to not steal, yet they'd let a stranger rob them of every cent without raising a finger to stop them or report them. Their love of the thief was greater than their desire to 'correct' them. Those stories often end with the thief or stranger being so convicted (by the Spirit one assumes, not by the monk) that they repent and turn towards God.

This is the basis I use too when I approach these matters practically. I loosely embrace liberal principles when dealing with political and social issues, yet those principles very often stand in contrast to the perfection Christians are called to. Often, we need to deal with the world pragmatically when we excersize our temporal powers like voting. Yet, as a Christian we are called to perfection, to “come out from them” (II Corinthians 6:17). It’s a very fine line to walk at times when we choose to act in civil discourse, which I might add is optional for some.

Christians may have different options in dealing with such matters in the civil orders. Prayerfully approaching the voting booth while using our Christian formed intuition and reason we may vote and discuss moral matters in the world as a “light on the hill” and “salt of the world.”

However, there are some things we can know. Christians do do things wrongly sometimes, other things, just like the rest of the world, we must come to know better through learning and experience. We don’t know everything and we can learn new things using different forms of revelation about the truth of creation, math and science are two wonderful tools mankind developed to help with this. On the other hand, God also gave us a firm foundation in some revelation. Some of that revelation is not based in human understanding too, but the rules of human sexuality aren’t one of those. Human reason can support the commands from God about sexual activity. We can know them, believe them with assurance and act on them with that assurance. Our actions however, even though based in right faith and reason about the matter, may be a mistaken choice with consequences. This is especially true when we try to act with evangelical fervor and political action. In this way, I believe it is conceivable for Christians to “support” certain actions we wouldn’t do ourselves. But the principalities of this world can never force me to believe that homosexual marriage is what marriage is meant to be.
I'm sort of unfairly piggybacking off of your thoughts, but I'm doing so because it made me realize that the word "Support" might carry various meanings for different folks. If by 'support' one simply means can Christians merely tolerate a secular society allowing it, that's one thing. I can agree to that. But others, me for instance, have been viewing 'support' as something more close to the definition of the word: Bearing weight/upholding and giving assistance to something.

When framed that way it goes beyond whether we're asking if it's okay for Christians to recognize a legal reality.
Yes, and that’s why I put quotations around the word “support.” Very often we are given a dichotomy of loaded choices. Not to mention that certain things probably ought not be up for a vote at all to begin with, but they are anyway.
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Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by JohnnyMcPiperson » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:12 am

TNLawPiper wrote:It is a matter of equal protection of the laws; to wit, if a heterosexual couple can enjoy the state-sanctioned fruits of their relationship, a homosexual couple must also be allowed the same rights.

Homosexuality is sinful, but America doesn't criminalize sins.
This, I totally agree, in order to make something illegal you have to have a better reason than because the Bible says so... America is not a religious state.

But for a believer homosexuality is a perversion of the way God intended sex to be used, a sin like any other.

A man being more effeminate does not make him homosexual, you may be born with a more effeminate personality, but you are shaped by your experiences into an idea of what you sexually desire, be it sinful or not. Sex has a purpose, it isn’t made for pure enjoyment.

If you are going with the argument of sexual desire being a spectrum then you must allow for pedophiles, there are people who are only sexually attracted to children, were they born that way?


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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by TNLawPiper » Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:12 pm

JohnnyMcPiperson wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:12 am
TNLawPiper wrote:It is a matter of equal protection of the laws; to wit, if a heterosexual couple can enjoy the state-sanctioned fruits of their relationship, a homosexual couple must also be allowed the same rights.

Homosexuality is sinful, but America doesn't criminalize sins.
This, I totally agree, in order to make something illegal you have to have a better reason than because the Bible says so... America is not a religious state.

But for a believer homosexuality is a perversion of the way God intended sex to be used, a sin like any other.

A man being more effeminate does not make him homosexual, you may be born with a more effeminate personality, but you are shaped by your experiences into an idea of what you sexually desire, be it sinful or not. Sex has a purpose, it isn’t made for pure enjoyment.

If you are going with the argument of sexual desire being a spectrum then you must allow for pedophiles, there are people who are only sexually attracted to children, were they born that way?


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I believe we covered this in other threads, but I am glad to respond. Simply put, a sexual relationship between two adults having reached the age of consent should not be a part of the government's business unless some other crime is involved. A sexual relationship between an adult and a child who has not reached the age of consent must be regulated by the government because it is likely inherently violent and abusive. The same goes for animals, as they cannot consent.

I embrace the Catholic theology behind sex. I believe it and practice it wholeheartedly. But as a part of that theology, I am called to understand that same-sex attraction is not a mere choice.

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by KYBURLEY » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:06 pm

Jester wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:28 am
KYBURLEY wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:17 am
Define Christian
Just received a nomination for Most Likely to Demand Definitions in order to Better Disagree.
Haha, story of my life sir. Wasn't really trying to be clever, just pointing out that if one is Anglican or Episcopalian, or other mainline denominations, it's certainly possible to be Christian and support gay marriage with no moral conundrum. I suppose lots of sects wouldn't consider them Christian, and vise versa.

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by FredS » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:13 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:12 pm
I embrace the Catholic theology behind sex. I believe it and practice it wholeheartedly.
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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by Nature of a Man » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:19 pm

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by durangopipe » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:30 pm

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by Nature of a Man » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:44 pm

JohnnyMcPiperson wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:12 am
TNLawPiper wrote:It is a matter of equal protection of the laws; to wit, if a heterosexual couple can enjoy the state-sanctioned fruits of their relationship, a homosexual couple must also be allowed the same rights.

Homosexuality is sinful, but America doesn't criminalize sins.
This, I totally agree, in order to make something illegal you have to have a better reason than because the Bible says so... America is not a religious state.
Nothing personal, but that's something of a strawman - as far as the same-sex marriage case goes, same-sex marriage wasn't "illegal", it just simply "wasn't legal", which is apples to oranges.

As far as the reasons for it, most of the sound arguments didn't merely defer to the "Bible" without further extrapolation - the sounder arguments were generally just based on factual assessments, such as how marriage between a man and a woman benefits society due to the biological reality of those unions usually resulting in children and population replenishment, and that the state therefore has its self-interest at stake in supporting it via legal protections (while same-sex unionsdo not).

In fact, the sounder arguments which referenced the Bible to begin with didn't just reference the Bible for the Bible's sake, but just illustrated factual realities behind prohibitions against sodomy and homosexuality by the Bible and many if not most societies, religious or secular - such as the biological reality of sodomy being a source of disease epidemics (which historically have been a bigger killer of mankind than violence and warfare, and even more particularity deadly in past era due to their lack of modern medicine and disease prevention).

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by Nature of a Man » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:51 pm

TNLawPiper wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:12 pm
It is a matter of equal protection of the laws; to wit, if a heterosexual couple can enjoy the state-sanctioned fruits of their relationship, a homosexual couple must also be allowed the same rights.
Well, in theory, no they don't.

In practice, yes, the 14th Amendment was misinterpreted in a way which equated discriminating against a disease (as I'd assume any competent doctor would do if he was attempting to treat the sick) with discrimination against an "immutable" trait such as race (despite talking points such as "gay gene theories" having never been sound science to begin with). So until the law changes, the state has to follow through with it.

In theory, however, no - there's no reason that the state has to help subsidize a defective social institution such as a gay "marriage" to begin with; a gay or sodomite "couple" has no fruit to bear society to begin with, at least anymore than 2 plugs or 2 sockets could make an electrical current (it'd take 1 socket and 1 plug, but I'm just stating the obvious).
Homosexuality is sinful, but America doesn't criminalize sins.
Sorry but in the context of this discussion, that statement doesn't mean anything. First off, one could easily argue that all crimes are "sins" to begin with, given that crimes such as murder, theft, etc are sins in Christianity and other world religions. (And likewise, an LGBT cult member who wishes to advocate that pedastry be made a "right" would likely just as well argue that society forbidding them from abusing children is merely "legislation of morality", or "criminalizing sin" as well).

And in practice, no, all states theoretically have a right to legalize or criminalize any sin they wish if they deem it in their own self-interest (so long as it doesn't violate one of the rights outlined in the federal Constitution). As an example, some states have obscenity laws written into their state penal code, which in theory could be used to ban the distribution or possession of pornography or other degenerate art, media, entertainment, etc. (In practice, my understanding is that these laws aren't strictly enforced, but if the state wanted to, they'd have every legal right to do so).

Just for the record, this isn't necessarily arguing that a state "should" criminalize any and every possible in, but just pointing out that as far as the Constitution and state Common Law is concerned, they theoretically could if they wished to, just as they theoretically have every right to overtly favor Christianity and institutions which are in accord with Christian principles (so long as they stopped short of overtly declaring Christianity the state religion) over degenerate institutions such as sodomite "marriage" or the LGBT cult.
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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by artsygeek » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:54 pm

UncleBob wrote:You all are dancing around the core issue: It is a Civil Rights issue. Adultery, gluttony, theft, foolishness, and so on are not civil rights issues. You can rail against it; you can shake your fist at God and the Universe arguing about the natural order or semantics over specific words but eventually Rosa Parks is tired and refuses to get up or some Police raid the Stonewall to bust some heads and eventually your granddaughter is sitting next to you at Christmas dinner and asking, "Why do you hate gay people, grandpa?"
This Mennonite agrees with you.
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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by artsygeek » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:57 pm

hugodrax wrote:Could somebody move this thread to the Opt-In Forum?

The only thing worse than knowing how you folks think is examining the methods that brought you to the conclusions you have adopted. Brutal.
No argument from this Mennonite.
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Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by JohnnyMcPiperson » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:42 am

TNLawPiper wrote:
JohnnyMcPiperson wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:12 am
TNLawPiper wrote:It is a matter of equal protection of the laws; to wit, if a heterosexual couple can enjoy the state-sanctioned fruits of their relationship, a homosexual couple must also be allowed the same rights.

Homosexuality is sinful, but America doesn't criminalize sins.
This, I totally agree, in order to make something illegal you have to have a better reason than because the Bible says so... America is not a religious state.

But for a believer homosexuality is a perversion of the way God intended sex to be used, a sin like any other.

A man being more effeminate does not make him homosexual, you may be born with a more effeminate personality, but you are shaped by your experiences into an idea of what you sexually desire, be it sinful or not. Sex has a purpose, it isn’t made for pure enjoyment.

If you are going with the argument of sexual desire being a spectrum then you must allow for pedophiles, there are people who are only sexually attracted to children, were they born that way?


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I believe we covered this in other threads, but I am glad to respond. Simply put, a sexual relationship between two adults having reached the age of consent should not be a part of the government's business unless some other crime is involved. A sexual relationship between an adult and a child who has not reached the age of consent must be regulated by the government because it is likely inherently violent and abusive. The same goes for animals, as they cannot consent.

I embrace the Catholic theology behind sex. I believe it and practice it wholeheartedly. But as a part of that theology, I am called to understand that same-sex attraction is not a mere choice.
Nothing in your statement disagrees with my statement.

I addressed separate concerns

1. The government has no business making marriage between 2 adults illegal (we agree)

2. Sin is sin, no spectrum, not born that way, shaped and molded by experiences. (reasons sited in my original post)

3. Effeminate does not equal gay, this is something our society has trouble wrapping its head around.

Just to add another point:
Not all believers are called to marriage, we all have our own temptations we must resist and for some that is homosexuality, I have walked down that road with a few brothers and sisters in support.


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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:22 am

FredS wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:13 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:12 pm
I embrace the Catholic theology behind sex. I believe it and practice it wholeheartedly.
Braggart.
I said wholeheartedly, not frequently.

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by Nature of a Man » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:36 am

JohnnyMcPiperson wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:42 am
1. The government has no business making marriage between 2 adults illegal (we agree)
The argument though is that it isn't "marriage" in any legitimate sense to begin with, and therefore the definition is faulty. by definition a same-sex couple couldn't have the attributes of an actual marriage, just as 2 plugs and 2 sockets could not produce an electrical current like the "marriage" of 1 plug and 1 socket".

In that sense, yes I'd be fine with the government making "gay marriage" illegal on the basis of an argument like the one I made above - the reason that state governments have any interest in offering marriage protections to begin with is because actual marriages (between men and women) are viewed as benefiting society and naturally leading to goods such as population replenishment, while "gay marriages" do not.

So a "gay couple" demanding a "right to marry" would be like a person who drives a Hummer demanding the same tax credit from the government as a person who drives a "green car", and therefore silly, IMO.

(If you're going beyond the subject of merely offering legal marriage recognition to same-sex couples, and veering into the subject of the government actually criminalizing homosexual acts done in the privacy of one's home - then that's not really a subject relevant to the 'gay marriage" debate anyway; that was something the courts settled in Lawrence vs. Texas, I believe).
2. Sin is sin, no spectrum, not born that way, shaped and molded by experiences. (reasons sited in my original post)
Oh there definitely is a "spectrum", written or unwritten or otherwise - disease is disease, but a common cold is not bubonic plague or ebola, crime is crime, but littering is not rape or homicide, etc.

As far as where to "rank" homosexuality, I'm not sure, nor am I a theologian or psychologist - though I suspect that it or other lifestyle choices that cause one to deviate on such a fundamental level of identity, psychology, and whatnot would be potentially be ripe with more serious problems and concerns.
3. Effeminate does not equal gay, this is something our society has trouble wrapping its head around.
I agree that "effeminate" or "flamboyant" traits in males does not equal "gay or homosexual" (or vice versa - a woman having some "masculine" or "tomboyish" traits does not a lesbian make) - and to some extent, this stereotype tends to be more exaggerated in the case of males (e.x. a male ballet dancer might tend to "raise more questions" than a female soccer player).

Regardless, I have read some medical evidence that imbalances in body chemistry - perhaps related to the sex hormones testosterone and estrogen in particular, plays a role in people experiencing homosexual or transgender feelings, maybe particularly in the case of people who claim to have "experienced these feelings all their lives" - so I'd venture that research into these things might be a step in society curing disorders of this nature (at least as far as the purely biological factors are concerned).

I'm also aware of intersex or "hermaphrodite" disorder, or some people being born with the genetics of one sex, but the physical parts developing in the direction of the other sex; I suspect this might play a role in some "same-sex" couples or "transgender" individuals who don't have access to medical care or surgery to treat this; so yes, I agree that the "nitty gritty" of issues like this has been obfuscated by a lot of social ignorance and activism masquerading as concern.
Just to add another point:
Not all believers are called to marriage, we all have our own temptations we must resist and for some that is homosexuality, I have walked down that road with a few brothers and sisters in support.

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Are you talking about those who take vows or take up lifestyles of simplicity or celibacy, such as monks? I'd agree with the statement you're making since individual circumstances are complicated, but I lean toward thinking that other than more out of ordinary individual circumstances, not planning to marry at at all at some time in one's life would be too difficult for many people to attempt.
Last edited by Nature of a Man on Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:57 am

hugodrax wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:36 am
Could somebody move this thread to the Opt-In Forum?

The only thing worse than knowing how you folks think is examining the methods that brought you to the conclusions you have adopted. Brutal.
What's worse is letting the general public examine said methods.

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by Nature of a Man » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:13 am

UncleBob wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:24 am
You all are dancing around the core issue: It is a Civil Rights issue.
Civil rights and legal rights can be changed, all society has to do is make them wrongs.
Adultery, gluttony, theft, foolishness, and so on are not civil rights issues.
I suppose they aren't directly, but they interrelate nevertheless. At least as far as the basis by which one would deem something worthy of being a civil right to begin with. I'd venture that the grounds by which a person could argue that a man has a "right" to cheat on his wife, to steal people's property, etc would be much shakier from the get go - before it was ever made a right.
You can rail against it; you can shake your fist at God and the Universe arguing about the natural order or semantics over specific words but eventually Rosa Parks is tired and refuses to get up or some Police raid the Stonewall to bust some heads and eventually your granddaughter is sitting next to you at Christmas dinner and asking, "Why do you hate gay people, grandpa?"
No offense, but if one looks more closely at social trends, then one sees the whole "Archie Bunker" stereotype isn't really accurate, and really just more of a mythical, rose-tinted picture than anything else.

Sure, older, less youth-savvy LGBT activists or sympathizers might imagine that they're more tolerated in media today simply because those old "homosexual warning videos" or a few "homosexual-friendly sitcoms", when in reality, homophobic entertainers such as gangster rappers in the likes of NWA or Eminem have been selling Platinum albums to youth since the 90s and 2000s - ripe with lyrics about committing various acts of violence against <zederated> (in their own words) - and receiving little if any serious backlash for it.

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by TNLawPiper » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:17 am

Nature of a Man wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:51 pm
TNLawPiper wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:12 pm
It is a matter of equal protection of the laws; to wit, if a heterosexual couple can enjoy the state-sanctioned fruits of their relationship, a homosexual couple must also be allowed the same rights.
Well, in theory, no they don't.

In practice, yes, the 14th Amendment was misinterpreted in a way which equated discriminating against a disease (as I'd assume any competent doctor would do if he was attempting to treat the sick) with discrimination against an "immutable" trait such as race (despite talking points such as "gay gene theories" having never been sound science to begin with). So until the law changes, the state has to follow through with it.

In theory, however, no - there's no reason that the state has to help subsidize a defective social institution such as a gay "marriage" to begin with; a gay or sodomite "couple" has no fruit to bear society to begin with, at least anymore than 2 plugs or 2 sockets could make an electrical current (it'd take 1 socket and 1 plug, but I'm just stating the obvious).
Homosexuality is sinful, but America doesn't criminalize sins.
Sorry but in the context of this discussion, that statement doesn't mean anything. First off, one could easily argue that all crimes are "sins" to begin with, given that crimes such as murder, theft, etc are sins in Christianity and other world religions. (And likewise, an LGBT cult member who wishes to advocate that pedastry be made a "right" would likely just as well argue that society forbidding them from abusing children is merely "legislation of morality", or "criminalizing sin" as well).

And in practice, no, all states theoretically have a right to legalize or criminalize any sin they wish if they deem it in their own self-interest (so long as it doesn't violate one of the rights outlined in the federal Constitution). As an example, some states have obscenity laws written into their state penal code, which in theory could be used to ban the distribution or possession of pornography or other degenerate art, media, entertainment, etc. (In practice, my understanding is that these laws aren't strictly enforced, but if the state wanted to, they'd have every legal right to do so).

Just for the record, this isn't necessarily arguing that a state "should" criminalize any and every possible in, but just pointing out that as far as the Constitution and state Common Law is concerned, they theoretically could if they wished to, just as they theoretically have every right to overtly favor Christianity and institutions which are in accord with Christian principles (so long as they stopped short of overtly declaring Christianity the state religion) over degenerate institutions such as sodomite "marriage" or the LGBT cult.
The Supreme Court's interpretation of the US Constitution IS the law. Thus, the law states that 14th Amendment does prevent the state from discriminating against same-sex couples, so far as marriage is concerned. One could make the argument that the state has as much of an interest in subsidizing long-term relationships, such as same-sex marriage would theoretically engender, as it would in subsidizing marriage between among a heterosexual couple incapable of producing children.

And yes, you are correct that the governments of the United States and the separate states can criminalize "sins." You caught me speaking imprecisely on an internet forum. Said governments do not necessarily prohibit activities simply because at least a subset of Christians believes they are sins and, therefore, worthy of prohibition. We let slide a great number of sins listed in the Bible--in fact, nine of the Ten Commandments are legal in more instances than not.

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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by UncleBob » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:23 am

Nature of a Man wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:13 am
UncleBob wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:24 am
You all are dancing around the core issue: It is a Civil Rights issue.
Civil rights and legal rights can be changed, all society has to do is make them wrongs. [1]
Adultery, gluttony, theft, foolishness, and so on are not civil rights issues.
I suppose they aren't directly, but they interrelate nevertheless. At least as far as the basis by which one would deem something worthy of being a civil right to begin with. I'd venture that the grounds by which a person could argue that a man has a "right" to cheat on his wife, to steal people's property, etc would be much shakier from the get go - before it was ever made a right. [2]
You can rail against it; you can shake your fist at God and the Universe arguing about the natural order or semantics over specific words but eventually Rosa Parks is tired and refuses to get up or some Police raid the Stonewall to bust some heads and eventually your granddaughter is sitting next to you at Christmas dinner and asking, "Why do you hate gay people, grandpa?"
No offense, but if one looks more closely at social trends, then one sees the whole "Archie Bunker" stereotype isn't really accurate, and really just more of a mythical, rose-tinted picture than anything else.

Sure, older, less youth-savvy LGBT activists or sympathizers might imagine that they're more tolerated in media today simply because those old "homosexual warning videos" or a few "homosexual-friendly sitcoms", when in reality, homophobic entertainers such as gangster rappers in the likes of NWA or Eminem have been selling Platinum albums to youth since the 90s and 2000s - ripe with lyrics about committing various acts of violence against <zederated> (in their own words) - and receiving little if any serious backlash for it. [3]
[1] "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" may not be important to some unless they get to decide to whom it applies, I suppose.

[2] See 1.

[3] Hmm.. see 1, again.
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Re: Can a Christian Support Gay Marriage?

Post by sweetandsour » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:24 am

durangopipe wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:30 pm
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