Nature of World During End Times

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Post by FredS » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:43 pm

How many Protestant apologists does it take to change Del?
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Post by Gabriel » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:46 pm

ShellBriar wrote:
Del wrote:I still wish there were more Protestant apologists on CPS, who are "always ready to give a reason for your hope."
This seems like code for, "I would like to fight!" Del, do you realize that you are using God's Holy Word to try and draw out your brothers into a fight? Just because the topic of the fight is a Holy matter, it doesn't make the fight Holy. You've got to ratchet it back man.

I'll always be ready to give a reason for my hope, at my house, over pie. You are always welcome there Del.
Shell, Shell, what? The man isn't allowed to talk and ask for a defense of Protestant positions? You once had strong convictions and are now questioning those. I get that, but you seem to be projecting an argumentative tone on every disagreement or debate. If there is no debate or disagreement allowed... then there is no theology forum. No conversation of any kind. I'm really not following your objection here.

Unless... you're coming from the perspective that Del is being disingenuous... in which case. You might be right, I'm choosing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but considering the amount of defending, defining, and explaining that has gone on....
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Post by Zed » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:52 pm

FredS wrote:How many Protestant apologists does it take to change Del?
three...One to hold the Del and the other two will turn the ladder.

sorry
YEAH COBS

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Post by Zed » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:58 pm

Is it possible that some are getting huffy with Del because of the recent threads of concern about the rudness on CPS? Are we getting sensitive?

I will add though that I was not offended by his comment. But I'm not protestant either. Del's comment was inflammatory but I don't think he meant it as an insult.

Now everyone kiss and make up.
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Post by twentyoneeight » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:59 pm

Gabriel wrote:
Del wrote:I'm sorry that I sound condescending. I will try very hard to work on that.

There is a fullness of Truth, a gift from God to us, with sacraments and grace too -- and I want everyone to have it.

I still wish there were more Protestant apologists on CPS, who are "always ready to give a reason for your hope."
1 Peter 3:15 wrote:15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
I'm hoping for some John Piper-lite guys, who can answer the questions that are asked at CPS.
Are you serious? How many does it take? I assume you mean you want a Protestant apologist who isn't Protestant?
This is what Del thinking seems to be:

Del-Protestants are heretics, the RCC has said this to be so and I trust the RCC to guide me in faith and practice. She has been given to the world by Christ as His representative on earth.

NonDel-But Del, have you read/truly interacted with Protestant theology/teachings/doctrine/ideas in order to come to a full understanding of what they believe before reaching that conclusion?

Del-Why should I? If the RCC is indeed Christ's Church and has been given authority by Christ in order to determine true doctrine/practice, then I do not need to know what they teach, I just need to know what the Church teaches regarding them. The Church cannot err, for Christ will protect her from error. Unless I am compelled to doubt the RCC, I do not find it necessary to investigate Protestant theology.
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Post by ChildOfGod » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:09 pm

Gabriel wrote:You once had strong convictions and are now questioning those. I get that
I still have the same strong Reformed convictions, not questioning those too much, just making sure they conform to the early Church Fathers as much as possible, but I think what I'm questioning is the way those Reformed convictions should operate in the world.
Gabriel wrote:If there is no debate or disagreement allowed... then there is no theology forum. No conversation of any kind.
You're right, and you're right, and that wouldn't be good.
Gabriel wrote:Unless... you're coming from the perspective that Del is being disingenuous... in which case. You might be right, I'm choosing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but considering the amount of defending, defining, and explaining that has gone on....
That is where I was coming from. I think there is much more of an interest in fighting for fighting's sake than for anything else. Maybe that's not fair, but that's what I'm seeing.

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Post by Bigwill » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:10 pm

twentyoneeight wrote:
Gabriel wrote:
Del wrote:I'm sorry that I sound condescending. I will try very hard to work on that.

There is a fullness of Truth, a gift from God to us, with sacraments and grace too -- and I want everyone to have it.

I still wish there were more Protestant apologists on CPS, who are "always ready to give a reason for your hope."
1 Peter 3:15 wrote:15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
I'm hoping for some John Piper-lite guys, who can answer the questions that are asked at CPS.
Are you serious? How many does it take? I assume you mean you want a Protestant apologist who isn't Protestant?
This is what Del thinking seems to be:

Del-Protestants are heretics, the RCC has said this to be so and I trust the RCC to guide me in faith and practice. She has been given to the world by Christ as His representative on earth.

NonDel-But Del, have you read/truly interacted with Protestant theology/teachings/doctrine/ideas in order to come to a full understanding of what they believe before reaching that conclusion?

Del-Why should I? If the RCC is indeed Christ's Church and has been given authority by Christ in order to determine true doctrine/practice, then I do not need to know what they teach, I just need to know what the Church teaches regarding them. The Church cannot err, for Christ will protect her from error. Unless I am compelled to doubt the RCC, I do not find it necessary to investigate Protestant theology.
With all due respect, Del has gone out of his way on several occassions to let Catholics (and Orthodox) on this board know that Protestants AREN'T heretics. Where are you getting this from (other than projecting)?

Moreover, as several Protestants on this board have noted, Del has been inquisitive about their theology, and has gained in understanding. Tuttle, in particular, noted that he and Del had quite the theological give-and-take via PM.

Your indignation is misplaced. JMO.
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Post by twentyoneeight » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:11 pm

This is not to come off as sounding dismissive of Del. Rather, it is designed to help those of us with a Protestant bent understand where Del's coming from. One of the more frustrating claims that he makes is that all heresies are Biblical. It took me a while to understand that he's using the term Biblical rather differently than Protestants tend to use it. Del's meanining is that any heresy can site Biblical proofs in defense of its position. Protestants use the term Biblical to refer to that which is faithful to the Bible's message/teaching. It's a fine distinction but it is necessary to understand where he's coming from.
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Post by twentyoneeight » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:23 pm

Bigwill wrote:With all due respect, Del has gone out of his way on several occassions to let Catholics (and Orthodox) on this board know that Protestants AREN'T heretics. Where are you getting this from (other than projecting)?

Moreover, as several Protestants on this board have noted, Del has been inquisitive about their theology, and has gained in understanding. Tuttle, in particular, noted that he and Del had quite the theological give-and-take via PM.

Your indignation is misplaced. JMO.
With all due respect to you, Del posted in this very thread that an Antichrist is anybody who promises salvation without Christ and His Church. So by inference he is making out any non-Catholic to be an Antichrist (I substituted heretic for Antichrist but we're eventually talking about the same thing). That being said, I have had my own dealings with Del in the past. This is an old conversation that pops up every once in a while. As far as indignation, read what I've written and tell me if there is a hint of misrepresentation or venom in what I've written. I summed up Del's thinking for the sake of the protestants who have beaten their head against the wall in their efforts to try to get Del to acknowledge that he does not understand our theology yet he frequently makes blanket statements against it. This behavior by Del is a result of his faithful (and I mean that with all sincerity. Nobody other than wosbald can call Del a bad Catholic) commitment to the RCC. Del will not change until that commitment changes and I for one do not believe that day will come any time soon.
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Post by Cigarson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:32 pm

I've always assumed that modern popular Rapture eschatology came from the Left Behind series. But that's always sounded wrong to me that such a widely believed theory would come from a series of second rate P.G. Woodhouse novels.

Where did Rapture theology really come from, are the novels close to what the theory really says, and what denominations hold to Rapture beliefs?

I should add maybe that I've never read the novels, nor do I intend to, being too busy reading good books by Tolkien, Chesterton, Belloc, and all those folks.
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Post by MacGuru » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:41 pm

Cigarson wrote:I've always assumed that modern popular Rapture eschatology came from the Left Behind series. But that's always sounded wrong to me that such a widely believed theory would come from a series of second rate P.G. Woodhouse novels.

Where did Rapture theology really come from, are the novels close to what the theory really says, and what denominations hold to Rapture beliefs?

I should add maybe that I've never read the novels, nor do I intend to, being too busy reading good books by Tolkien, Chesterton, Belloc, and all those folks.
I don't dare wade into this- but I have always been curious; Revelation is one of those books that is nigh-impossible to understand in any logical light; its timeline is disjointed and its imagery poetic, lending itself to an incredible amount of interpretation.

I'm sure a great many councils of wiser men than me have arrived at the conclusions of the Rapture/ end times, and I'm hardly qualified to belabor it. Jesus said "I'll be back" but was pretty vague on the terms and conditions, the closest we can get to answers is a book that defies most rational disassembly and therefore all information gleaned is done primarily by inference.

That said, people have been screaming "end times" for about 300 years now, so I'm not sure what I believe on the matter anymore- and that's a confession of my own weakness on the subject.
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Post by infidel » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:43 pm

Cigarson wrote:I've always assumed that modern popular Rapture eschatology came from the Left Behind series. But that's always sounded wrong to me that such a widely believed theory would come from a series of second rate P.G. Woodhouse novels.

Where did Rapture theology really come from, are the novels close to what the theory really says, and what denominations hold to Rapture beliefs?

I should add maybe that I've never read the novels, nor do I intend to, being too busy reading good books by Tolkien, Chesterton, Belloc, and all those folks.
I once saw a mention of The Late, Great Planet Earth which seems like something that started this ball rolling
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Post by Cigarson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:46 pm

twentyoneeight wrote: With all due respect to you, Del posted in this very thread that an Antichrist is anybody who promises salvation without Christ and His Church. So by inference he is making out any non-Catholic to be an Antichrist (I substituted heretic for Antichrist but we're eventually talking about the same thing).
No, Antichrist is not equal to Heretic. The Antichrist is the original deceiver, with an evil agenda to dismember the Body of Christ. So long as you do not want to separate anyone from Jesus, you are not an antichrist. I think Del is wrong in his definition that he wrote, but he does that a lot (don't forget, I live with him).
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Post by justynblack » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:46 pm

infidel wrote: I once saw a mention of The Late, Great Planet Earth which seems like something that started this ball rolling
I read that when I was a kid. Boy was he wrong.

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Post by Cigarson » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:53 pm

MacGuru wrote:
Cigarson wrote:I've always assumed that modern popular Rapture eschatology came from the Left Behind series. But that's always sounded wrong to me that such a widely believed theory would come from a series of second rate P.G. Woodhouse novels.

Where did Rapture theology really come from, are the novels close to what the theory really says, and what denominations hold to Rapture beliefs?

I should add maybe that I've never read the novels, nor do I intend to, being too busy reading good books by Tolkien, Chesterton, Belloc, and all those folks.
I don't dare wade into this- but I have always been curious; Revelation is one of those books that is nigh-impossible to understand in any logical light; its timeline is disjointed and its imagery poetic, lending itself to an incredible amount of interpretation.

I'm sure a great many councils of wiser men than me have arrived at the conclusions of the Rapture/ end times, and I'm hardly qualified to belabor it. Jesus said "I'll be back" but was pretty vague on the terms and conditions, the closest we can get to answers is a book that defies most rational disassembly and therefore all information gleaned is done primarily by inference.

That said, people have been screaming "end times" for about 300 years now, so I'm not sure what I believe on the matter anymore- and that's a confession of my own weakness on the subject.
I don't think any councils came up with it, and it is very new in the grand scheme of things. I know the RCC does not teach it, and from everything I've heard it sounds heretical or, at least wrong.
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Post by infidel » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:53 pm

MacGuru wrote:
Cigarson wrote:I've always assumed that modern popular Rapture eschatology came from the Left Behind series. But that's always sounded wrong to me that such a widely believed theory would come from a series of second rate P.G. Woodhouse novels.

Where did Rapture theology really come from, are the novels close to what the theory really says, and what denominations hold to Rapture beliefs?

I should add maybe that I've never read the novels, nor do I intend to, being too busy reading good books by Tolkien, Chesterton, Belloc, and all those folks.
I don't dare wade into this- but I have always been curious; Revelation is one of those books that is nigh-impossible to understand in any logical light; its timeline is disjointed and its imagery poetic, lending itself to an incredible amount of interpretation.

I'm sure a great many councils of wiser men than me have arrived at the conclusions of the Rapture/ end times, and I'm hardly qualified to belabor it. Jesus said "I'll be back" but was pretty vague on the terms and conditions, the closest we can get to answers is a book that defies most rational disassembly and therefore all information gleaned is done primarily by inference.

That said, people have been screaming "end times" for about 300 years now, so I'm not sure what I believe on the matter anymore- and that's a confession of my own weakness on the subject.
It's been a lot longer thatn 300 years, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_literature
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Post by Bigwill » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:55 pm

twentyoneeight wrote:As far as indignation, read what I've written and tell me if there is a hint of misrepresentation or venom in what I've written.
Yes. Both.

Misrepresentation--your 'Del' is saying that Protestant Christians are heretics. I've seen him confront Catholic and Orthodox Christians on that very point. His position is clear--Luther and Calvin were heretics, but their present day followers can't be considered such.

Venom--the passive-aggressive nature of the 'dialogue'.
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Post by Irish-Dane » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:10 pm

Zed wrote:Is it possible that some are getting huffy with Del because of the recent threads of concern about the rudness on CPS? Are we getting sensitive?
I would offer, not sensitive but braver. In the era of the past few months there seemed to be only a few kind of mean people. There were the, "YOU'RE STUPID" people and the passive aggressive/condescending people. Those who have been ignored and/or talked over and down to, have been given a free pass to be able to express themselves freely now. That pass has been offered by many members in the last few days in their apology posts. Just my .02

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Post by Kerdy » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:47 pm

ShellBriar wrote:Hey Kerdy and Fellows - I didn't say what I'm quoted as saying above. Would you correct that?
Who said it? I didnt mean to mess it up.
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Post by Kerdy » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:51 pm

jruegg wrote:
Hovannes wrote:The ends times are pretty well described in the Bible---it follows an era of peace (which we have yet to see) and more importantly nobody knows when it's gonna hit.

Christians have suffered persecution in the past, are doing so now and will in the future. I'd look at it as a great honor to share in Christ's suffering (although I'd prefer it be quick!)

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I believe the end times more accurately is described as 3 1/2 years of peace due to the Antichrist followed by 3 1/2 years of terror. However, the peace is preceeded by many things which we are witnessing right now, possibly.
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