Reformation Day!

For those deep thinkers out there.

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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by UncleBob » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:59 pm

Montana Catholics and Lutherans come together for anniversary of their churches separating
On Friday, Catholic and Lutheran clergy and lay leaders will meet for a convocation in Lewistown hosted by the Montana Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

On Monday, Bishop Michael Warfel of the Diocese of Great Falls-Billings and Bishop George Thomas of the Diocese of Helena will be joined by Bishop Jessica Crist and retired bishop Mark Ramseth of the Montana Synod of the ELCA for an ecumenical vesper service at St. Helena Cathedral.

The focus will be a jointly authored document, “From Conflict to Communion,” in which Lutherans and Catholics for the first time tell together the history of the Reformation. In the document they express regret over the pain they inflicted on each other, but give thanks for the theological insights they have shared.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by coco » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:35 pm

Martin Luther wrote:I have so much to do that I will spend the first three hours in prayer.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:10 pm

tuttle wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:28 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:20 am
...the biblical standard that priests cannot get married.
False.

The biblical standard is that priests cannot get married to more than one wife.

(SOURCE!)
I forgot about that rule. Yes... A married man could be ordained, but only if he was still married to his first wife.

We suppose that Paul instituted that rule because a man who felt compelled to remarry would probably not be able to live the continence required of a priest.

What criteria do your bishops use to guide their discernment in the ordaining of priests?
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by tuttle » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:30 am

Del wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:10 pm
tuttle wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:28 pm
Del wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:20 am
...the biblical standard that priests cannot get married.
False.

The biblical standard is that priests cannot get married to more than one wife.

(SOURCE!)
I forgot about that rule. Yes... A married man could be ordained, but only if he was still married to his first wife.

We suppose that Paul instituted that rule because a man who felt compelled to remarry would probably not be able to live the continence required of a priest.

What criteria do your bishops use to guide their discernment in the ordaining of priests?
We suppose that Paul instituted that rule because he was instructing Timothy how to raise up elders in a pagan society where polygamy and other adultery-ish things were A-OK. If he were writing to America today, he might say something like "The elder should be married to one wife, who is also a biological female."

The criteria most traditional Protestants use for discernment in ordination ought to be obvious to you by now. Sola Scriptura! :wink:
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Jocose » Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:36 am

I see it as a division rather than a "reformation"

Such a mess and such a division. A fractured church to say the least.

The Prots rail against the RC and the RC likewise.

Sad.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by tuttle » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:54 am

Jocose wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:36 am
I see it as a division rather than a "reformation"

Such a mess and such a division. A fractured church to say the least.

The Prots rail against the RC and the RC likewise.

Sad.
It was a reformation movement that became a division. The Reformers sought to reform within. The Roman Church kicked them out.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by wosbald » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:28 am

+JMJ+

This is, to me, a bizarre article. It starts by affirming the rightness of the Protestant cause, segues into claiming that Catholic worship — or at least, some liturgical modes of Catholic worship — reflects extra nos imputational justification[!?!], and ends by suggesting how regressive Protestant movements can appropriate Catholicity as a weapon against their ideologico-political progressive enemies (assumedly, both within and without the American Protestant landscape writ large).



How Roman Catholicism Can Get Protestantism Back To Its Reformation Roots
Image

Protestant churches will claim a doctrinally correct view of justification, but what the doctrine means has no bearing on their worship practices. Not so with many Catholics.

[…]

Why would divergent worship practices—formal versus informal—lead to divergent attitudes toward political involvement? It all goes back to the Reformation doctrine of justification. If Christ is extra nos, as he is in the liturgy, then he’s imputed on me as a gift from the outside. There’s no expectation I’ll be transformed into the likeness of God. I can’t. This is Christ’s show, and I remain distinct from him.

Also, recognizing my own incapacitation, I’ll never think humanity can be mustered to the cause of positive governance. If anything, government needs negative checks, as does human nature. No establishment of the kingdom of God on earth for a ritualist!

However, if God “leaks” out of Christ and the sacramental life of the church into me, I can imagine myself as the sacrament, as God’s incarnated presence effecting change in the world through my cooperation with God’s Spirit. I’ll believe God’s using me to establish his kingdom on earth. These are the theological roots undergirding the political religion that is modern leftism. …




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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:28 am

wosbald wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:28 am
+JMJ+

This is, to me, a bizarre article. It starts by affirming the rightness of the Protestant cause, segues into claiming that Catholic worship — or at least, some liturgical modes of Catholic worship — reflects extra nos imputational justification[!?!], and ends by suggesting how regressive Protestant movements can appropriate Catholicity as a weapon against their ideologico-political progressive enemies (assumedly, both within and without the American Protestant landscape writ large).



How Roman Catholicism Can Get Protestantism Back To Its Reformation Roots
Image

Protestant churches will claim a doctrinally correct view of justification, but what the doctrine means has no bearing on their worship practices. Not so with many Catholics.

[…]

Why would divergent worship practices—formal versus informal—lead to divergent attitudes toward political involvement? It all goes back to the Reformation doctrine of justification. If Christ is extra nos, as he is in the liturgy, then he’s imputed on me as a gift from the outside. There’s no expectation I’ll be transformed into the likeness of God. I can’t. This is Christ’s show, and I remain distinct from him.

Also, recognizing my own incapacitation, I’ll never think humanity can be mustered to the cause of positive governance. If anything, government needs negative checks, as does human nature. No establishment of the kingdom of God on earth for a ritualist!

However, if God “leaks” out of Christ and the sacramental life of the church into me, I can imagine myself as the sacrament, as God’s incarnated presence effecting change in the world through my cooperation with God’s Spirit. I’ll believe God’s using me to establish his kingdom on earth. These are the theological roots undergirding the political religion that is modern leftism. …
The pain-to-edification ratio is high with this one.

We have seen this idea expressed before.... many times, many ways. How the morality of the political left and right are defined by the sins that they are willing to tolerate.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Cliff » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:01 pm

Happy Reformation Day :thumbsup: :joy: :joy:
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Del » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:22 pm

Cliff wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:01 pm
Happy Reformation Day :thumbsup: :joy: :joy:
Pretty sure that's next week, on the Eve of All Saints Day.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by tuttle » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:40 am

Happy 500th Reformation Day!! :dance:
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by wosbald » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:41 am

+JMJ+

On Reformation milestone, experts detect ‘astounding’ thirst for unity/
Image

Pope Francis, right, hugs the President of the Lutheran World Federation Bishop Munib Younan during an ecumenical prayer in the Lund Lutheran cathedral, Sweden, Monday, Oct. 31, 2016. Francis traveled to secular Sweden to mark the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, a remarkably bold gesture given his very own Jesuit religious order was founded to defend the faith against Martin Luther's "heretical" reforms five centuries ago. (Credit: L'Osservatore Romano/Pool Photo via AP.)

Two experts on the Catholic/Lutheran relationship, one Catholic and the other Lutheran, both say that joint commemorations of today's 500th anniversary of the launch of the Protestant Reformation reflect a strong yearning for unity in the grassroots, and may represent a new "springtime" in ecumenism, meaning the quest for Christian unity.

Five hundred years ago today, tradition has it, Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses on the door of the cathedral in Wittenberg, Germany, thereby triggering the Protestant Reformation that’s divided Western Christianity ever since.

Today, two experts on each side of that Catholic/Lutheran divide say what they detect in the trenches is an “astounding” thirst for unity.

Kathryn Johnson, director of Ecumenical and Interreligious Relations for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), said at a recent ELCA assembly, that spirit was strong.

[…]

Sister Susan K. Wood, a member of the Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth, Kansas, a theology professor at Marquette and a veteran leader in Catholic/Lutheran dialogue, said that joint commemorations of the Reformation anniversary may mark a turning point.

[…]

Both also pointed to the 1999 Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation as an important moment along the way.

“For Lutherans, this was huge,” Johnson said. “On our key issue from the Reformation, we were saying that we no longer had to condemn Catholic teaching and practice, and that was enormously important.”

Wood and Johnson spoke to Crux in a late October video interview in advance of today’s anniversary. The following are excerpts from that interview. That video interview was sponsored by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Secretariat for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs. …




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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Rusty » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:33 am

Catholics proclaiming the Solas? Interesting. Whatever will we do around here?

Happy Samhain!

And a very Happy 501st Reformation Day!
tuttle wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:40 am
Happy 500th Reformation Day!! :dance:
500 years since the Reformation, but 501st Reformation Day because we count the first as 1.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by UncleBob » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:34 pm

The Other Reformation: How Martin Luther Changed Our Beer, Too
In the 16th century, the Catholic Church had a stranglehold on beer production, since it held the monopoly on gruit — the mixture of herbs and botanicals (sweet gale, mug wort, yarrow, ground ivy, heather, rosemary, juniper berries, ginger, cinnamon) used to flavor and preserve beer. Hops, however, were not taxed. Considered undesirable weeds, they grew plentifully and vigorously — their invasive nature captured by their melodic Latin name, Humulus lupulus (which the music-loving Luther would have loved), which means "climbing wolf."

"The church didn't like hops," says William Bostwick, the beer critic for The Wall Street Journal and author of The Brewer's Tale: A History of the World According to Beer. "One reason was that the 12th century German mystic and abbess Hildegard had pronounced that hops were not very good for you, because they 'make the soul of a man sad and weigh down his inner organs.' So, if you were a Protestant brewer and wanted to thumb your nose at Catholicism, you used hops instead of herbs."
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Rusty » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:44 pm

UncleBob wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:34 pm
The Other Reformation: How Martin Luther Changed Our Beer, Too
In the 16th century, the Catholic Church had a stranglehold on beer production, since it held the monopoly on gruit — the mixture of herbs and botanicals (sweet gale, mug wort, yarrow, ground ivy, heather, rosemary, juniper berries, ginger, cinnamon) used to flavor and preserve beer. Hops, however, were not taxed. Considered undesirable weeds, they grew plentifully and vigorously — their invasive nature captured by their melodic Latin name, Humulus lupulus (which the music-loving Luther would have loved), which means "climbing wolf."

"The church didn't like hops," says William Bostwick, the beer critic for The Wall Street Journal and author of The Brewer's Tale: A History of the World According to Beer. "One reason was that the 12th century German mystic and abbess Hildegard had pronounced that hops were not very good for you, because they 'make the soul of a man sad and weigh down his inner organs.' So, if you were a Protestant brewer and wanted to thumb your nose at Catholicism, you used hops instead of herbs."
Catholics and tax... ugh. Luther was a hero. More reasons to venerate. There is no downside to all this.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by coco » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:31 pm

Rusty wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:44 pm
UncleBob wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:34 pm
The Other Reformation: How Martin Luther Changed Our Beer, Too
In the 16th century, the Catholic Church had a stranglehold on beer production, since it held the monopoly on gruit — the mixture of herbs and botanicals (sweet gale, mug wort, yarrow, ground ivy, heather, rosemary, juniper berries, ginger, cinnamon) used to flavor and preserve beer. Hops, however, were not taxed. Considered undesirable weeds, they grew plentifully and vigorously — their invasive nature captured by their melodic Latin name, Humulus lupulus (which the music-loving Luther would have loved), which means "climbing wolf."

"The church didn't like hops," says William Bostwick, the beer critic for The Wall Street Journal and author of The Brewer's Tale: A History of the World According to Beer. "One reason was that the 12th century German mystic and abbess Hildegard had pronounced that hops were not very good for you, because they 'make the soul of a man sad and weigh down his inner organs.' So, if you were a Protestant brewer and wanted to thumb your nose at Catholicism, you used hops instead of herbs."
Catholics and tax... ugh. Luther was a hero. More reasons to venerate. There is no downside to all this.
For all his protestations, Luther's beer stein was always full. He loved local beer, boasted of his wife's brewing skills, and launched a movement that helped promote hops. Does that make him a patron saint of the craft brewery?
Yes. Yes, it does.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by infidel » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am

Martin Luther and Ethiopian Christianity: Historical Traces

I saw this posted elsewhere under the claim that the protestant reformation has 'African roots'. Seemed like some historical revisionism at first but maybe there's some truth to it in a sense, if you limit "protestant reformation" to Luther's original intent and not what it spiraled into.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by tuttle » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:26 pm

infidel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am
Martin Luther and Ethiopian Christianity: Historical Traces

I saw this posted elsewhere under the claim that the protestant reformation has 'African roots'. Seemed like some historical revisionism at first but maybe there's some truth to it in a sense, if you limit "protestant reformation" to Luther's original intent and not what it spiraled into.
Interesting! Thanks for the link
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Jocose » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:37 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:26 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am
Martin Luther and Ethiopian Christianity: Historical Traces

I saw this posted elsewhere under the claim that the protestant reformation has 'African roots'. Seemed like some historical revisionism at first but maybe there's some truth to it in a sense, if you limit "protestant reformation" to Luther's original intent and not what it spiraled into.
Interesting! Thanks for the link
There was no reformation in the Orthodox Church, Ethiopian or otherwise.

Orthodox Christianity, proclaiming the truth since 33 AD.

Come and see!
Last edited by Jocose on Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Reformation Day!

Post by Jocose » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:52 am

tuttle wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:26 pm
infidel wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:59 am
Martin Luther and Ethiopian Christianity: Historical Traces

I saw this posted elsewhere under the claim that the protestant reformation has 'African roots'. Seemed like some historical revisionism at first but maybe there's some truth to it in a sense, if you limit "protestant reformation" to Luther's original intent and not what it spiraled into.
Interesting! Thanks for the link
There was no reformation in the Orthodox Church, Ethiopian or otherwise.

Orthodox Christianity, proclaiming the truth since 33 AD.

Come and see!
"And for Freds sake, DO NOT point anyone towards CPS or you'll put them off of both Christianity and pipe smoking forever." ~ FredS



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