Clarifying sola Scriptura

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Post by GiantNinja » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:28 am

I find it interesting in these types of conversations when folks link to or cite definitions created by others.

I am well aware of what Wikipedia says is the definition of Sola Scriptura. So too am I aware of competing, though no less authoritative, definitions.

What I'm interested in is what an adherent to Sola Scriptura means when he says he adheres.

For example, that Sister Progressive calls herself Catholic is interesting. But I don't need to read the CCC to learn what she means. She denies the Real Presence as superstition. So how does SHE define Catholic when SHE says 'I'm Catholic'?

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Post by gaining_age » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:38 am

GiantNinja wrote:I am always amazed in these types of conversations when folks link to or cite definitions created by others.

I am well aware of what Wikipedia says is the definition of Sola Scriptura. So too am I aware of competing, though no less authoritative, definitions.

What I'm interested in is what an adherent to Sola Scriptura means when he says he adheres.

For example, that Sister Progressive calls herself Catholic is interesting. But I don't need to read the CCC to learn what she means. She denies the Real Presence as superstition. So how does SHE define Catholic when SHE says 'I'm Catholic'?
Goodness...

I don't spend my day philosophizing and theologizing. I have a regular job so I'm not sure where you want my originality in conveying items that are indicated elsewhere.

I abide... not adhere, necessarily.

G.
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Post by GiantNinja » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:48 am

gaining_age wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:I am always amazed in these types of conversations when folks link to or cite definitions created by others.

I am well aware of what Wikipedia says is the definition of Sola Scriptura. So too am I aware of competing, though no less authoritative, definitions.

What I'm interested in is what an adherent to Sola Scriptura means when he says he adheres.

For example, that Sister Progressive calls herself Catholic is interesting. But I don't need to read the CCC to learn what she means. She denies the Real Presence as superstition. So how does SHE define Catholic when SHE says 'I'm Catholic'?
Goodness...

I don't spend my day philosophizing and theologizing. I have a regular job so I'm not sure where you want my originality in conveying items that are indicated elsewhere.

I abide... not adhere, necessarily.

G.
Suggesting that you 'abide...not adhere' implies (to me, at least) your belief that Sola Scriptura, itself, is tradition. I agree that it is tradition, so I'm not chastising you. But WHY do you abide? What causes you to accept the tradition?

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Post by Kerdy » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:48 am

I certainly am glad I am no longer protestant. The confusion was unbearable.
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Post by gaining_age » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:01 am

GiantNinja wrote:
gaining_age wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:I am always amazed in these types of conversations when folks link to or cite definitions created by others.

I am well aware of what Wikipedia says is the definition of Sola Scriptura. So too am I aware of competing, though no less authoritative, definitions.

What I'm interested in is what an adherent to Sola Scriptura means when he says he adheres.

For example, that Sister Progressive calls herself Catholic is interesting. But I don't need to read the CCC to learn what she means. She denies the Real Presence as superstition. So how does SHE define Catholic when SHE says 'I'm Catholic'?
Goodness...

I don't spend my day philosophizing and theologizing. I have a regular job so I'm not sure where you want my originality in conveying items that are indicated elsewhere.

I abide... not adhere, necessarily.

G.
Suggesting that you 'abide...not adhere' implies (to me, at least) your belief that Sola Scriptura, itself, is tradition. I agree that it is tradition, so I'm not chastising you. But WHY do you abide? What causes you to accept the tradition?
John 15:
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
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Post by wosbald » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:57 am

+JMJ+
UncleBob wrote:
Consequently, sola scriptura demands only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
If this be true, then Protestantism has no Dogma. It has only theological doctrine. And thus, the Incarnation, Resurrection, Trinity are reduced to matters of theology. Fascinating.

It does go along with G_A's comment about "abiding" rather than "adhering". It is a substitution, as Jean Borella notes, of fiducial faith for doctrinal faith, of faith-confidence for faith-knowledge.
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Post by UncleBob » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:27 pm

wosbald wrote:+JMJ+
If this be true, then Protestantism has no Dogma.
Oh, if only that were true!
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Post by dasmokeryaget » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:01 pm

gaining_age wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:
gaining_age wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:I am always amazed in these types of conversations when folks link to or cite definitions created by others.

I am well aware of what Wikipedia says is the definition of Sola Scriptura. So too am I aware of competing, though no less authoritative, definitions.

What I'm interested in is what an adherent to Sola Scriptura means when he says he adheres.

For example, that Sister Progressive calls herself Catholic is interesting. But I don't need to read the CCC to learn what she means. She denies the Real Presence as superstition. So how does SHE define Catholic when SHE says 'I'm Catholic'?
Goodness...

I don't spend my day philosophizing and theologizing. I have a regular job so I'm not sure where you want my originality in conveying items that are indicated elsewhere.

I abide... not adhere, necessarily.

G.
Suggesting that you 'abide...not adhere' implies (to me, at least) your belief that Sola Scriptura, itself, is tradition. I agree that it is tradition, so I'm not chastising you. But WHY do you abide? What causes you to accept the tradition?
John 15:
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me and my church.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me , he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words and the traditions of men abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

0 If ye keep my commandments and the ancient traditions of the EFC's, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Fixed it for ya Gary,......umm..... you may need to get a nuther Bible. :yes:

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Post by BubbaJack » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:10 pm

Just a note:

Kerdy, you are new to me :D though not new to the forum, because I have only been around here for a year.

I like the way you think and thank you for what you are bringing to this table.

Love you guys.

Still thinking this would be a lot more fun if we met for BBQ.

Peace!
PaxChristi!
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Post by dasmokeryaget » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:07 pm

BubbaJack wrote:Just a note:

Kerdy, you are new to me :D though not new to the forum, because I have only been around here for a year.

I like the way you think and thank you for what you are bringing to this table.

Love you guys.

Still thinking this would be a lot more fun if we met for BBQ.

Peace!

So whats up with that BubbaJack? Did it crash and burn or is it still on the table? I already made plans to be there. Do ya think Id drive 460 miles to visit you if no one else showed up?

Well I just might would. :D

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Post by BubbaJack » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:21 pm

dasmokeryaget wrote:
BubbaJack wrote:Just a note:
Kerdy, you are new to me :D though not new to the forum, because I have only been around here for a year.
I like the way you think and thank you for what you are bringing to this table.
Love you guys.
Still thinking this would be a lot more fun if we met for BBQ.
Peace!

So whats up with that BubbaJack? Did it crash and burn or is it still on the table? I already made plans to be there. Do ya think Id drive 460 miles to visit you if no one else showed up?

Well I just might would. :D
Absolutely. However, if there is only one person then the food selection may be quite different.

Only one person said they'd be coming Das, and that'd be you.
PaxChristi!
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Post by BubbaJack » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:24 pm

What if we just plan early and I invite everyone for the weekend after July 9th next year? Would that be better?
PaxChristi!
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Post by dasmokeryaget » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:56 pm

BubbaJack wrote:What if we just plan early and I invite everyone for the weekend after July 9th next year? Would that be better?
That sounds like a plan also.

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Post by GiantNinja » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:32 pm

BubbaJack wrote:What if we just plan early and I invite everyone for the weekend after July 9th next year? Would that be better?
The Mayans are laughing at you right now.

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Post by Kerdy » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:06 pm

gaining_age wrote:
UncleBob wrote:Oh for heaven's sake:
Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Consequently, sola scriptura demands only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. However, sola scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God. Sola scriptura was a foundational doctrinal principle of the Protestant Reformation held by the Reformers and is a formal principle of Protestantism today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
I was just about to post the same thing... wikipedia has items under the five solas. Seems reasonable enough
Sola scriptura is the teaching that the Bible is the only inspired and authoritative word of God, is the only source for Christian doctrine, and is accessible to all—that is, it is perspicuous and self-interpreting. That the Bible requires no interpretation outside of itself is in direct opposition to the teachings of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglo-Catholic, and Roman Catholic traditions, which teach that the Bible can be authentically interpreted only by apostolic or sacred Tradition. In the Catholic Church, this teaching authority is referred to as the Magisterium, understood to be embodied in the episcopacy, the aggregation of the current bishops of the Church in u*nion with the pope.

Sola scriptura is sometimes called the formal principle of the Reformation, since it is the source and norm of the material principle, the gospel of Jesus Christ that is received sola fide ("through faith alone") sola gratia (by God's favor or "grace alone").[citation needed] The adjective (sola) and the noun (scriptura) are in the ablative case rather than the nominative case to indicate that the Bible does not stand alone apart from God, but rather that it is the instrument of God by which he reveals himself for salvation through faith in Christ (solus Christus or solo Christo).[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas
Confusion on my part!

Are we now going to Wikipedia to obtain our faith doctrine? I am certain that is not the case, but I must ask if it is when I see a response of “seems reasonable enough”. Maybe I missed something or didn’t read this correctly.
Last edited by Kerdy on Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Post by Kerdy » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:08 pm

BubbaJack wrote:Just a note:

Kerdy, you are new to me :D though not new to the forum, because I have only been around here for a year.

I like the way you think and thank you for what you are bringing to this table.

Love you guys.

Still thinking this would be a lot more fun if we met for BBQ.

Peace!
I appreciate the kind words, but I was not always this type of thinker in relation to faith. A short time ago I was a Baptist.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

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Post by Kerdy » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:12 pm

What I find most intriguing is Holy Tradition does not contradict Holy Scripture. The two support one another, yet people reject Tradition.
"Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian- even though they profess with the lips the teaching of Christ." - Justin Martyr  ( c.160 )

“Moral principles do not depend on a majority vote. Wrong is wrong, even if everybody is wrong. Right is right, even if nobody is right.” - Venerable Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

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Post by FredS » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:41 pm

GiantNinja wrote:
GiantNinja wrote:I do wish more folks (particularly Protestants) would chime in with THEIR definitions of Sola Scriptura.
I haven't read this entire thread yet. GN posted and reposted this request on page three, even though three people had posted their definitions at that point. Granted, two of those posts quoted other sources (such as the Westminster Confession), but that's beside the point. If one agrees with those sources, it's perfectly acceptable to use them - there's no need to put together a new string of words to express the same thought.

As for me, I say:
All scripture is self-attesting and being Truth, requires our unreserved submission in all areas of life. The infallible Word of God, the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments, is a complete and unified witness to God's redemptive acts culminating in the incarnation of the Living Word, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible, uniquely and fully inspired by the Holy Spirit, is the supreme and final authority on all matters on which it speaks.

The proceeding text was not written by me, but was snipped from my church's website. I do, however agree with it.
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Post by tuttle » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:43 pm

Kerdy wrote:What I find most intriguing is Holy Tradition does not contradict Holy Scripture. The two support one another, yet people reject Tradition.
sola Scriptura does not reject tradition. It rejects bad tradition. It seeks to guard tradition, to assure that tradition remains pure.
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Post by FredS » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:55 pm

Kerdy wrote:What I find most intriguing is Holy Tradition does not contradict Holy Scripture. The two support one another, yet people reject Tradition.
People reject God too. Not everybody, but some. Just the same, not everybody rejects Tradition. Though it has nothing to do with the OP, and I have no desire to flesh this out, I will say that most Protestants don't "reject Tradition". We reject some Tradition - Tradition that is fundamental to Catholicism, so we are at odds, but don't think we reject that which is right and true.

EDIT: Tuttle was replying at the same time as me. As it happens, we agree on this point.
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